Is that really you saying that? Because I didn't hear anyone complain about the beauties of MGS 4. Characters dripping with goo with superfluous t/a/v shots in the cinematography and how the actresses were supposedly mocapped completely nude... special instances where cherry petals are floating around or the ability to get them to dance to jpop... and yet now it seems like complaining about quiet is in vogue when everything involved there is infinitely less offensive.
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Metal Gear canon will ruin The Phantom Pain
- Thread starter TheLostBigBoss
- Start date
Is that really you saying that? Because I didn't hear anyone complain about the beauties of MGS 4. Characters dripping with goo with superfluous t/a/v shots in the cinematography and how the actresses were supposedly mocapped completely nude... special instances where cherry petals are floating around or the ability to get them to dance to jpop... and yet now it seems like complaining about quiet is in vogue when everything involved there is infinitely less offensive.
Eeeeh from what I played of PW the main story problems are
a) Paz
b) Teasing that The Boss was alive but instead it was an AI
Which had nothing to do with MGS4.
Wait for one of the story marathons on uknight'ed twitch channel. Does a great job playing through every game, showing you every story bit (alot you can miss on your own).
DemurOnion
Banned
I lost interest in this series long ago. It could be good. I think the story has gone past where I need it to be though. I simply don't care about any of it anymore.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
The only reason that AI stuff was introduced in Peace Walker was because it was a to tease or prelude Zero creating the Patriot AI system.
Clockwork5
Member
Yup I expected a 2+ page post about the MG "cannon". Every time I refresh myself on the overarching story of the series I recognize terrible bullshit storytelling for what it is. Holes and nonsense motives / reactions / consequences are abundant throughout the story.
It would have been better realized as a series of novellas instead of trying to attempt an epic spanning several decades.
It would have been better realized as a series of novellas instead of trying to attempt an epic spanning several decades.
The patriot AIs were introduced in MGS2 tho, so you may as well blame that game for that. I feel that shoving Zero into the villain role was not necessarily a misstep in MGS4, but a story necessity from the villains being artificial intelligences, but not backed by Big Boss; the guy behind it had to be someone important from MGS1/2/3, and the possibilities run out very soon. I feel the main problem with Zero in MGS4 come from the bad writing in the reveal (one come backs to zero blah blah) than the actual basic plot.
The games not being able to deliver on Zero going evil are a fault of PW et all, not of MGS4. I feel the idea that two old friends falling apart like BB and the Major did, and provoking a major conflict decades later is a pretty interesting idea. If the execution is faulty, it is fault of the executing games.
Oh, forgot another thing that's really dumb in PW: Huey being Otacon's father and being friends with Big Boss. Again, nothing to do with MGS4.
Polioliolio
Member
I couldn't bring myself to finish Peace Walker. Game was alright and fun I suppose, but the story was a mess and to be frank, I hated it. They brought Huey in just for fan service and for the snake/otacon companionship that they already know works.
Paz and that dumb Japan obsessed crap about little girls in their undies.. Ridiculous.
I've been criticized for having this opinion, but what I despise most about Peace Walker is how the technology is sooo far ahead of its time. MGS3 and the nuke launching tank in MGS3 even seems plausible the way they told that story... Peace Walker though... That stuff would look absurd even in MGS2 or 4. Star Wars Episode 1 syndrome.
I think Kojima tried to show/explain the split between Big Boss and Zero. Both are ardent follower of The Boss ideal, but they have their own different take from each other. Big Boss try to live The Boss ideal by making a country for soldiers, while Zero taking it up for literal by creating an AI based on her. The big question is: where did this split between Big Boss and Zero come from? Is it from MGS4, or is it from MGS3?
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Yea, I had a problem with this as well. The Shagohod was really just a massive tank that was retrofitted with two rocket engines. Sure, in real life it wasn't really plausible with it's metal treads causing all sorts of friction and havoc, but it was in keeping with the ear of the space race and it fit.
Peace Walker was completely out of it's times with it's technology. There was no explanation why in 1975, there were hovering giant mechanical, AI driven mechs. MGS has always had stuff ahead of it's time period, but it's always been believable. That's why Metal Gear REX was so cool. Sure it had a Ray Gun (And why the hell did Zeke have a Ray Gun in 1975), but it's design is grounded. It's a slow, hulking mech that shrieks at every movement.
It is only natural to come up with story as it goes on. As it created you find the pieces that you enjoy more than other and are able to shift focus to those pieces moving forward. Having the entire thing down as a huge unchanging thing is stale and boring (at least to me).
Also Metal Gear as a series has never not had more series themes and ideas and dark places for characters to go with other insane things layered on top and I assume these games will be on that same track, especially from what we have seen from the trailers and the more over the top elements. You only have to look at Skullface himself walking around in Ground Zeroes for examples of that.
As to the tech stuff, Metal Gear Solid is also Science Fiction, it isn't our 1974 it is Metal Gear 1974, you are allowed to tweak with the ground rules when you are building fiction.
Also Metal Gear as a series has never not had more series themes and ideas and dark places for characters to go with other insane things layered on top and I assume these games will be on that same track, especially from what we have seen from the trailers and the more over the top elements. You only have to look at Skullface himself walking around in Ground Zeroes for examples of that.
As to the tech stuff, Metal Gear Solid is also Science Fiction, it isn't our 1974 it is Metal Gear 1974, you are allowed to tweak with the ground rules when you are building fiction.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
No, AI's were introduced in MGS2, but they were never the Patriots. It was only revealed in MGS4 that Zero created the current Patriot AI system. They were originally introduced as a way to control Arsenal Gear if I recall correctly, not control the entire globe.
There was no need to make Zero the main antagonist of the series. They could have simply had the US government been Snakes antagonist, causing trouble for him at every turn as they try to pull strings around the world for their own benefit. It would have been much more grounded and less stupid than pulling the cast of MGS3 into the roll of the founding Patriots.
Big Boss never needed to have a person to face. He was betrayed by his government and his whole world was turned upside down when he learned that he killed his mentor for a system that just wanted immense wealth. The story of Big Boss creating MSF would have been fine, it didn't need Zero or the Patriots. It could have simply been a story of a haunted man who is slowly loosing his grip on reality as he descends into his own false reality to give reason to the Boss's sacrifice.
MGS2 wasn't meant to be continued, it was never meant to be explained, that's why we are having this conversation over ridiculous, absurd things that bring down the series as a whole.
A good author is the one who don't break rules as their whim. Those who do will only create dissonances, inconsistencies, and deux ex machinas. MGS is of course a occul-science fiction series, but Kojima always tries to make the technological level of development quite consistent and logical in its own world. The past Metal Gears (and Shagohod) shows this. From gigantic tank equipped with massive rocket launcher, to clunky walker with a mounted railgun, then to amphibious walker that have nimble movement. Sure the jump from Rex to Ray is quite far, but it is not as far as from Shagohod to ZEKE. Also we need to remember the setting of which the story took its place. All of that Peace Walker AI being built in a fricking central America country is just breaking way too much, even when the facility is owned by US government.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I was about to comment on this, but you basically took the words right out of my mouth.
staticneuron
Member
Why would that break to much? Why is the locale so the limitation? The people behind it were under the directive of the CIA and basically had americans (Huey Emmerich, father of the metal gear) working on it with supplies from soviets.
Edit:
I think this is simply an example of people being selective. If you paid attention the Shagohod used drills for propulsion, not tank treads, and iirc a TEL that can launch an ICBM didn't really exist until 20+ years after the events of MGS3. What gets me there is tech in every MGS that should make you go.... huh? I would imagine, aside from the supernatural/superhuman baddies you face that the last thing you would complain about is out of place tech.
I feel MGS4 has the heart in the right place, but the execution is botched.
As I said, the basic ideas behind it are solid. The AIs being the fault of BB and Zero falling apart is great, mostly because Les Enfants Terrible are also a product of this falling apart. Ocelot faking the arm taking over is great. Finally riding a Metal Gear Rex and taking it against a Metal Gear Ray is great. Making Raiden badass is cool. Making the main enemy a faceless AI is interesting, but it could have been done a lot better. All the themes of Snake growing old are super good.
BUT the game itself has tons of problems. The biggest is that the dialog cannot deliver on the plot. This has always been a problem in MGS games, but somehow it is worse in 4.
The game takes itself too seriously, and the attempts at wacky hijinx are sparse, and when they appear, they fall mostly flat (with the exception, imho, of Johnny / Meryl towards the end). The game structure fails by being divided in several sections, and goes against what the earlier games had built. I like Drebin in MGS4, but him giving you the backstory on the Beauties is...ill conceived.
As I said, I do not think you can squarely blame MGS4 for the plot problems in subsequent games. Any game starred by Big Boss has to be a tragedy due to the original Metal Gear (not even Solid). MGS3 is interesting as a prequel because it is only a small step into this tragedy, but only a small step towards it -like, you can say that everything grew out of The Boss' death, but MGS3 does not directly lead to Outer Heaven-. MGS4 established a decent-to-good tragedy to build on, two friends falling apart. If other games could not capitalize on MGS3 and MGS4 it is the other games' fault.
PW commits the sin of going back to the "Big Boss feels bad about The Boss dying" well, but that well should not be the only source of angst in BB's life. Maybe TPP will not go back to that well again, but whatever problem it has it will be TPP's problem, not MGS4.
As I said, the basic ideas behind it are solid. The AIs being the fault of BB and Zero falling apart is great, mostly because Les Enfants Terrible are also a product of this falling apart. Ocelot faking the arm taking over is great. Finally riding a Metal Gear Rex and taking it against a Metal Gear Ray is great. Making Raiden badass is cool. Making the main enemy a faceless AI is interesting, but it could have been done a lot better. All the themes of Snake growing old are super good.
BUT the game itself has tons of problems. The biggest is that the dialog cannot deliver on the plot. This has always been a problem in MGS games, but somehow it is worse in 4.
The game takes itself too seriously, and the attempts at wacky hijinx are sparse, and when they appear, they fall mostly flat (with the exception, imho, of Johnny / Meryl towards the end). The game structure fails by being divided in several sections, and goes against what the earlier games had built. I like Drebin in MGS4, but him giving you the backstory on the Beauties is...ill conceived.
As I said, I do not think you can squarely blame MGS4 for the plot problems in subsequent games. Any game starred by Big Boss has to be a tragedy due to the original Metal Gear (not even Solid). MGS3 is interesting as a prequel because it is only a small step into this tragedy, but only a small step towards it -like, you can say that everything grew out of The Boss' death, but MGS3 does not directly lead to Outer Heaven-. MGS4 established a decent-to-good tragedy to build on, two friends falling apart. If other games could not capitalize on MGS3 and MGS4 it is the other games' fault.
PW commits the sin of going back to the "Big Boss feels bad about The Boss dying" well, but that well should not be the only source of angst in BB's life. Maybe TPP will not go back to that well again, but whatever problem it has it will be TPP's problem, not MGS4.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
The Shagohod launches an IRBM, a step below ICBM, and the rocket that is launched was officially in service in the mid 1970's, so it's not really a huge leap in tech.
Well if you take the position that MGS2 wasn't meant to be continued, we may as well blame MGS3 and every other MGS game that came afterwards too. MGS2 ends on a fucking huge cliffhanger, so maybe Kojima didn't want to make another, but a cliffhanger needs to be resolved. If MGS2 had truly not been meant to be followed up on, it would actually have finished the story.
In MGS2 the patriots are mentioned as the true villains, and the AIs are shown as its representants. It is not a stretch to think that at this point the AIs were supposed to be taking over the Patriots.
And the seeds of Zero being the villain of the game were planted in MGS3. How? By that time in the games development they made Sigint = Donald Anderson (DARPA Chief, aka rotten corpse in MGS1), which points out to the support group for Naked Snake, as being the ones behind it all.
edit: paramedic jokes about cloning Naked Snake, claming she is "fascinated by the possibilities. Especially when I see such an excellent specimen as yourself". So I guess that doubles the proof that Zero's group was always going to be the Patriots since MGS3.
Big Boss not needing an individual antagonist only goes so far. I feel it is well done in MGS3, where The Boss dying is provoked by The Boss loyalty to America, but could the same trick be pulled again? doubtful. Someone had to create Les Enfants Terrible. Someone had to create the AIs. Sure. It could be the government, but drama is better served by interpersonal conflict. As I said, at this point, way before MGS4, Sigint had already been thrown under the villains' bus, so they went full hog and made Zero the villain. Chances are, Zero was always going to be the big bad from the moment MGS3 went gold.
I don't remembered it all of Peace Walker form that much. All looks plausible though, even the hovering one (except its railgun technology, a quite leap I say). But the final form when it tooks the shape of a nimble quadruped walker, it's just too much (and it can changed into biped mode to boot!). If they make it bigger and clunkier, the technological wouldn't look so jarring. We also have to remember that almost 25 years later, US government made another walker, Metal Gear Rex, yet it is clunkier than Zeke or even Peace Walker final form
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
That is a logical fallacy. Just because a story ended with unresolved threads doesn't mean it needs to be continued. The whole third act the game is breaking over itself, constantly doing things that are completely impossible, even in the games own unique universe. Once again, I will just give some details about how fucking insane the game was and why if you take it to be literal you must answer for it.
- Why is code breaking out of the walls, hovering in Arsenal Gear?
- Why does Snake appear out of nowhere in the closed off tube, magically with all your gear? He doesn't come from the doors, he's just standing their on the side.
- How does Rose exist? If Rose was real, how does she know anything about the mission? The Colonel was not only an AI, but a creation of Raiden's mind and perception of what he would be (IE what the player thought of the Colonel). She appears at the end of the game, in the middle of Manhattan after a huge warship just crash landed. She acts like everything is cool as gravy.
- You fight multiple Metal Gears on a VR platform that is replicated from a VR mission from Metal Gear Solid: VR missions. It took everything Snake had to fight a single Metal Gear REX in MGS, yet Raiden is somehow able to fight off three at a time?
- Oh, and that platform where you fight the RAYS never appears again.
- Where does Olga come from? She appears out of thin air.
- Also, where does Snake come from. He swam after RAY, a Metal Gear designed to swim. How did he swim after it? How did he get to the Arsenal Gear crash site? Why, like Olga, does he appear seemingly out of thin air? Why does he vanish out of thin air?
- Why when Raiden fails his mission, its MISSION FAILED, but when we play as Snake in the Tanker it's the old GAME OVER? The only other place MISSION FAILED appears is during the VR missions in both MGS and MGS2.
You are told from the start that Raiden is unable to distinguish reality from VR. We have all these VR elements in the final act of the game, don't you think there is a reason for that? We are thrown conflicting messages, Raiden is questioning his reality and guess who comes in and tells us it's all real? Our idol, Solid Snake himself. Funny how were constantly told he was never a factor, yet without him we would have surly failed.
After it all, he tells us that we pass on our own ideals, what he believe what happened. That the world we see isn't absolute reality. That it's not even about being right or wrong, but about how much faith we were willing to have, that decides the future.
So sure, it could have all happened, that this happened in the same reality of Metal Gear Solid. However, I feel from all the hints and incredibly unreal moments experienced in the game, coupled with the reliability of our narrator along with Snakes final speech that these events did not take place in the games own canon. I choose to believe this, this is what I want to pass on about MGS2.
Oops, wait I forgot, MGS4 just told me all of that was bullshit.
That drama could have been better suited be having the conflict be within Big Boss himself. He was betrayed by his government with the Boss, and the whole canon of what happened between Snake Eater and MSF is so murky that I can't even connect a coherent narrative due to Portible Ops being non-canon. So what really happened between Snake Eater and MSF to keep Snake with the US is a fucking mystery to me, considering he created FOXHOUND in 1971, only a year before LMT, and three years before Peace Walker.
Everything after that is canon created after MGS4. Just because they hinted at Signit being the DARPA Chief with him creating ARPAnet, doesn't mean he was intended to be a fucking founding member of the Patriots. Major Zero was a supporting cast member in MGS3, not someone so important that you retroactively make them the main villain of the series.
I highly doubt Zero being the founding members of the Patriots was even thought of in MGS3. Kojima goes by a game by game basis, he doesn't plan ahead, he has told us this. That's why the first two sequels to MGS were pretty much stand alone when compared to MGS4.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
*ahem*
Just sayin'
Let me just start by saying, I absolutely love the VR theory (or indeed the "MGS2 as Video Game" theory) but I prefer the idea that, like all good Art, MGS2 is open to a variety of interpretations, so a literal explanation should be possible. So I'm gonna answer these for shits and giggles... plus, Im bored at work. XD
Interior decorating.
Im serious. Why not?
Snake is a master of stealth and infiltration. As I recall, Raiden looks away and looks back to see Snake there, right? He could easily have sneaked through without Raiden noticing, its what he does, after all. Just because Raiden can't get through a door, doesn't mean Snake can't. He had access to areas of Big Shell before Raiden did.
I can't believe you didn't mention the Infinite Ammo bandana... XD
The Rose AI and the real Rose are two separate entities. The Rose AI was created from Raidens actual memories of the real Rose.
I can't believe you didn't mention how "cool as gravy" ALL the civilians are in that scene... YOU'RE MAKING THIS TOO EASY! 
RAYs are smaller, less well-armed/armoured and much more highly manoeuvrable than REXs. REX (and the RAY in the Tanker) are manned, whilst the ones Raiden fights are AI controlled drones which obviously limits there abilities. Plus, Raiden is pretty hardcore, he did beat Vamp in a fight where Snake absolutely couldnt.
Again, the VR platform is a decorating choice.
Isnt it the rooftop where the big denouement occurs, just without the fancy octagon lights in the floor? Someone turned off the lights.
Cyborg ninja. Its part of the job description. She does it throughout the game.
He is a superior clone of the worlds greatest soldier, for starters. He didnt need to catch RAY in some popeye-esque manner, flailing his arms throughout the seven seas, desperately chasing it down. He just needed to attach the tracking device and swim to shore. Again, he can seemingly appear out of nowhere because he is a master of stealth and infiltration.
Each character gets their own style of GAME OVER screen in each of the games. Could easily be attributed to a design choice. Big Bosses was different too, right? However, as an in-story reason, it is a screen from the viewpoint of the AI running the test, with all the little stats and stuff.
That was fun. Probably not the most satisfactory answers, but possible answers none the less.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that most of the characters have names that relate to computers, though. That's a difficult one to explain away:
- EE/Emotion Engine
[*]The Colonel/Kernel
[*]Big Shell/Shell software interface
[*]Jack/Jack connector
[*]Rose/Remote Operating Service Element
[*]Dead Cell/Cell Processor
We are talking about different things here; MGS4 doesn't care about the crazy things that happened in MGS2. MGS4 sets out to resolve the narrative threads left by MGS2. Can the patriots be stopped? What happened to Olga's kid? What's going on with Liquid Ocelot? etc etc. You are asking that the game respects the mystery of the crazyness of MGS2, and MGS4 does it. Things like infinite Metal Gears Rays or Fortune deviating bullets are not touched upon.
On the other hand, the whole "MGS2 is a videogame" theory is crazy. For starters, all variations of "Story X is an allucination" are disrespectful to the spectator, because you are just telling her that you wasted her time. It's a cool interpretation, sure, but for storytelling purpose, you cannot demand that MGS2 did not happen. It was presented to the player as the sequel to MGS, and therefore the spectator demands it counts.
The whole point of MGS2 is that you are lead to believe things because you are being fed false information. The point is that the Patriots AI can make you believe crazy things so you can be forced to do things LIKE if the player was in a videogame. Not that you are IN a videogame. That's is just shyamalan level of plot twists.
MGS4 is super clear in building on what MGS2 did. Soldiers and the world itself are being controlled by machines, like MGS2 predicted. Once more, MGS4 is just clearly following on what the predecessors built.
MGS3 ends with a timeline saying that Sigint joined Darpa after the game. This is super deliberate -MGS1 and 2 end with no such timelines-, is done exclusively so people make the connection with the DARPA chief. Go check forums, a lot of people made the connection immediately. It has Paramedic gushing over cloning Big Boss. This is no coincidence. MGS3 was heavily hinting that Zero's group was going to be behind the Patriots. MGS4 delivered on those hints.
Even if you say "Zero and his pals were not supposed to be the Patriots during MGS3's development" -completely acceptable idea-, you have to accept that the seeds were laid CLEARLY in MGS3 and logically reaped in MGS4.
If PeaceWalker could not bring a decent show of how Zero and his pals became the Patriots, well, that's not because MGS3 and MGS4 failed. They gave hints and then logically followed on them. Or do you think that the people that guessed that Sigint was the DARPA chief in MGS3 were angry that they were right in MGS4? Kojima did not pull a crazy plot twist there. He just took what he had started and followed it to a logical conclusion.
MGS4 is pretty logical in following on what had been foreshadowed in MGS2 and 3. The Patriots being led by Zero is one thing. The other comes from MGS2. MGS2 clearly says that, if you let yourself to take your information from machines, the machines can and will control you. Guess what MGS4 is all about. The AIs controlling all the soldiers in the world. There is no way a followup to MGS2 and 3 does not follow the same basic plot that MGS4 does. I feel the only betrayal to the expectations in MGS4 is that the AIs are rendered silent, instead of talking to you while going a little crazy like in MGS2. But, as I said, the AIs taking over from Zero is only what MGS2 and MGS3 said was going to happen. No crazy plot twist there. Could MGS4 be better? Sure. It could have been done way better. Could MGS4 be fundamentally different? No. MGS4 only follows on all the foreshadowing of the previous 3 MGS games.
PeaceWalker is to blame for the faults of PeaceWalker. The game sets out with the task of showing how Zero and BB fall apart. This is not a tall order, by MGS4 everything has been laid out clearly. Zero has more extreme methods, and clones BB. BB in anger leaves the Patriots and Zero in response eventually creates the AIs. That's it, that's what should have happened in PW. Neither MGS3 or MGS4 demand that Zero build an AI based on The Boss in the 70s. Instead PW simply glosses over Zero and BB's falling apart -which in itself is a dramatic event and a source of drama, it was a great story laid by MGS2, 3 and 4- in favor of more craziness.By the moment PW starts, Les Enfants Terrible had already been created, aka, the most important moment in the series was just skipped by PW.
I think what happened is that Kojima felt satisfied after MGS2,3 and 4, and felt there was no need to tell the story of BB and Zero, and that the next MGS game could simply show new stories about Big Boss, since it was already clear how Zero and BB were going to fall apart.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
To a point.
MGS2 does question the nature of reality in the Information Age, of that there is no doubt, and that theme ties directly into another aspect of MGS2's commentary: a meta-comment on video games as a medium and their relationship to the player.
What could be considered "false information" more than a videogame and particularly the marketing around MGS2, which tricked the player in RL with disinformation regarding Snake? Isn't the game's final twist revealing that the player is actually part of the "Selection for Societal Sanity" Plan? Isn't The Colonel arguably talking directly to you at the end? Ask yourself this: Why did the game ask you to put (presumably) your name onto the dog tags at the first node and later acknowledge them in the narrative? What point is Kojima trying to make by tying you, the player, so directly to Raiden? Raiden (in this theory) is the player. You are both deceived by an artificial construct (in every sense of the word).
The theory is pretty sound and very interesting I think, but certainly not a hard and fast fact. That Kojima went on to make sequels that essentially refute this does not mean that wasn't his intention at the time.
Also, I agree with you regarding MGS3 setting up the real Patriots early on. There is plenty of evidence peppered throughout the game to suggest it.
Ok 2 things from me:
1) Portraying Kojima as a worthless storyteller is according to MHO a blasphemy.
The guy offered Metal Gear Solid when NOTHING out there even remotely could compare with it at the time. MGS2 and MGS3 were also amazingly crafted stories, deep with excellent characters etc.
2) I agree that Kojima has the tendency to overreact in his storytelling material quite often and he certainly doesnt know when to stop being waaay cheesy and tone things down. I like MGS4 (yes I do) but indeed some of its scenes are painful to watch... the whole Meryl Jhonny thing is just hideous. Peace walker is also... bad... BAAAAD
In short Kojima is very well able to tell a gripping and serious story. The problem is that the inner nerd in him cant stop importing stuff in his games that shouldnt be there. Perhaps its his Japanese culture invading where cheesiness is cool and often praised. But I think that now, "he got the memo".
Or atleast I hope he did. He actually said it himslef that the whole tone of MGSV is going to be more dark, mature and serious with not so much of those cheesy stuff that we had before. Based on GZ I think he is going the right way. Sure he is still going to overeact but I hope its going to be ok.
I think MGSV has all the potential to be his Magus Opus.
1) Portraying Kojima as a worthless storyteller is according to MHO a blasphemy.
The guy offered Metal Gear Solid when NOTHING out there even remotely could compare with it at the time. MGS2 and MGS3 were also amazingly crafted stories, deep with excellent characters etc.
2) I agree that Kojima has the tendency to overreact in his storytelling material quite often and he certainly doesnt know when to stop being waaay cheesy and tone things down. I like MGS4 (yes I do) but indeed some of its scenes are painful to watch... the whole Meryl Jhonny thing is just hideous. Peace walker is also... bad... BAAAAD
In short Kojima is very well able to tell a gripping and serious story. The problem is that the inner nerd in him cant stop importing stuff in his games that shouldnt be there. Perhaps its his Japanese culture invading where cheesiness is cool and often praised. But I think that now, "he got the memo".
Or atleast I hope he did. He actually said it himslef that the whole tone of MGSV is going to be more dark, mature and serious with not so much of those cheesy stuff that we had before. Based on GZ I think he is going the right way. Sure he is still going to overeact but I hope its going to be ok.
I think MGSV has all the potential to be his Magus Opus.
I agree with the premise of this thread. I was totally on board with very bit of the cannon up through MGS4 but I never played the PSP games and that is severely limiting my hype for this.
I am still planning to play Peace Walker at some point, but I don't really know what to do with Ground Zeros or The Phantom Pain until then.
I am still planning to play Peace Walker at some point, but I don't really know what to do with Ground Zeros or The Phantom Pain until then.
I think the VR theory has a lot of merits, but ultimately storytelling demands that MGS 2 happened. MGS4 leaves enough space that you are not sure if it every thing in it happens as you saw it, leaves out the most crazy parts of MGS 2 alone so the players cannot be sure if infinite bullets is canon, why the bullets were deflected, etc so the players can build their own narrative about what was real and what was the ais fucking with you, particularly towards the end of 2.
But MGS 2 def happened. Players can interpret it however they like, but going into MGS4, the games demand that most of 2 was real. I don't think MGS2 is VR fans need to be angry about 4. Both games can coexist.
A lot of MGS 4 shows that the S3 plan was a success. The soldiers in MGS4 are living their own MGS2. A failure of 4 is not building more on this, but the basic story beats are there. MGS4 failure is not on concept, but execution, while PW starts off with a bad concept.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Of course, I appreciate that and entirely agree, MGS2 did happen; they do co-exist. To be clear, I'm not on the OP's side regarding the canon ruining anything, I'm just supporting him with regards to the validity of the VR theory. There is an awful lot of evidence (way too much to be ignored) to suggest that it was one of Hideo's intentions for the game.
Obviously, the existence of MGS4 refutes the validity of the theory now. In isolation, it makes a lot of sense, as it did at the time prior to any announced sequels but it relies entirely on the fact that there were not going to be sequels, which it is assumed was Kojima's intention at the time. I mean, he's said many times how the series is his 'albatross' and that he's been trying to end it for a while ("This is my last one, I swear!").
Also, what's wrong with PW? I really enjoyed it...
I actually own the collector's edition for PSP and I have a digital copy of the HD edition for PS3.
I've just never been able to get past the first hour of the game. As soon as you are presented with menu options for level selection and squad customization (or whatever) I just shut down. This just isn't what I want from a Metal Gear game.
I will probably get back to it this summer sometime. I'm sure I will like it, I just need to approach it with a different mindset.
This is the one element of Metal Gear canon that I can never forgive. I can deal with everything in MGS2 except for this. And the retcon in MGS4 related to the arm was horrible.
I didn't realise there are that many people that really care about the MGS canon that deeply still apart from MGS fanboys (which I know a fair amount of, fair enough). MGS canon has been going downhill since the series stepped into prequel territory with MGS3 and everything in MGS4 (in terms of explanations and closing off loose ends) was based on everything in MGS3. This isn't anything new and is what happens when series turn into endless prequels in short periods where there isn't realistically much space or need for stories to be told (most of the time anyway). Don't worry about the story much and you'll enjoy the game.
Hahaha.
I think it is clever that, the part that people would not swallow in MGS2, turns out to be fake in MGS4. I completely understand if people did not like it in the first place, though.
Of course, I appreciate that and entirely agree, MGS2 did happen; they do co-exist. To be clear, I'm not on the OP's side regarding the canon ruining anything, I'm just supporting him with regards to the validity of the VR theory. There is an awful lot of evidence (way too much to be ignored) to suggest that it was one of Hideo's intentions for the game.
Obviously, the existence of MGS4 refutes the validity of the theory now. In isolation, it makes a lot of sense, as it did at the time prior to any announced sequels but it relies entirely on the fact that there were not going to be sequels, which it is assumed was Kojima's intention at the time. I mean, he's said many times how the series is his 'albatross' and that he's been trying to end it for a while ("This is my last one, I swear!").
Also, what's wrong with PW? I really enjoyed it...
I feel PW missed the chance to tell the most important story in the canon, namely the falling apart of Zero and BB, and the Les Enfants Terrible project. This is all glossed over and PW starts after these events.
Instead, PW goes and makes the AIs existent immediately after Zero and BB fall apart, which is kind of stretching technology too far, and on top of that, makes it an AI based on the Boss, which makes BB retread on the themes of MGS3.
I feel PW is a missed opportunity. In the end I stopped playing pretty early -partially because the plot didn't grab me, and partially because I did not enjoy the gameplay-, so maybe it is a great game? I don't know, but cannot shake the feeling it missed a big chance by ignoring the most dramatic events in the MGS canon.
Jeronimo Jones
Member
Interesting points and well thought out... but I couldn't make it all the way through.
I'll leave it to Kojima to figure out how to tie all of that together/ignore/explain it away. I'll still play it regardless, and will very likely enjoy it for whatever it is. So much easier for me.
I'll leave it to Kojima to figure out how to tie all of that together/ignore/explain it away. I'll still play it regardless, and will very likely enjoy it for whatever it is. So much easier for me.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I can appreciate the frustration, but I'm not sure it's necessarily fair to judge something on "what it should've been" or "what I wanted to see" as opposed to "what it is". Obviously, it's your opinion and you're of course entitled to it, I'm just saying!
Stretching technology is something that, as an essentially alternative reality sci-fi, the series is famous for, so it didn't bother me. Most of the technology in each entry is far ahead of what was implementable at the time (some of it is used in an unrealistic way). Where do we draw the line without it being an arbitrary distinction? Out of interest, how do you feel about the iDroid in GZ?
The AI itself is a vital part of the MGS canon from (arguably) MGS2 onwards, so it's an interesting twist that the AI that eventually warped The Boss' Will were in fact based on the personality of The Boss herself. I think it's an important step in the story, but yeah, not as vital as the schism. Speaking of the split, although I quite like the mystery surrounding it (I enjoy stories that don't explain or show everything), I'm wondering whether it'll be covered in TPP in some capacity. Since the theme seems to be about character's falling from grace, perhaps Kojima will thematically mirror Zero's downfall with BB's? Flashback maybe?
I'm personally not sure it does cover the same ground as MGS3. In this instance, Big Boss' character arc is based around coping with loss (and his own guilt over that loss), which isn't something we really see in MGS3. Ignoring PO (not played it), it does cover another key point where Big Boss accepts his role as a leader and how his general disenfranchisement with the US government becomes more resolute, so it is an important entry in his arc, but perhaps not as vital as the aforementioned schism.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
*ahem*
Just sayin'
Let me just start by saying, I absolutely love the VR theory (or indeed the "MGS2 as Video Game" theory) but I prefer the idea that, like all good Art, MGS2 is open to a variety of interpretations, so a literal explanation should be possible. So I'm gonna answer these for shits and giggles... plus, Im bored at work. XD
Interior decorating.
Im serious. Why not?
Snake is a master of stealth and infiltration. As I recall, Raiden looks away and looks back to see Snake there, right? He could easily have sneaked through without Raiden noticing, its what he does, after all. Just because Raiden can't get through a door, doesn't mean Snake can't. He had access to areas of Big Shell before Raiden did.
I can't believe you didn't mention the Infinite Ammo bandana... XD
The Rose AI and the real Rose are two separate entities. The Rose AI was created from Raidens actual memories of the real Rose.
I can't believe you didn't mention how "cool as gravy" ALL the civilians are in that scene... YOU'RE MAKING THIS TOO EASY!
RAYs are smaller, less well-armed/armoured and much more highly manoeuvrable than REXs. REX (and the RAY in the Tanker) are manned, whilst the ones Raiden fights are AI controlled drones which obviously limits there abilities. Plus, Raiden is pretty hardcore, he did beat Vamp in a fight where Snake absolutely couldnt.
Again, the VR platform is a decorating choice.
Isnt it the rooftop where the big denouement occurs, just without the fancy octagon lights in the floor? Someone turned off the lights.
Cyborg ninja. Its part of the job description. She does it throughout the game.
He is a superior clone of the worlds greatest soldier, for starters. He didnt need to catch RAY in some popeye-esque manner, flailing his arms throughout the seven seas, desperately chasing it down. He just needed to attach the tracking device and swim to shore. Again, he can seemingly appear out of nowhere because he is a master of stealth and infiltration.
Each character gets their own style of GAME OVER screen in each of the games. Could easily be attributed to a design choice. Big Bosses was different too, right? However, as an in-story reason, it is a screen from the viewpoint of the AI running the test, with all the little stats and stuff.
That was fun. Probably not the most satisfactory answers, but possible answers none the less.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that most of the characters have names that relate to computers, though. That's a difficult one to explain away:
- EE/Emotion Engine
[*]The Colonel/Kernel
[*]Big Shell/Shell software interface
[*]Jack/Jack connector
[*]Rose/Remote Operating Service Element
[*]Dead Cell/Cell Processor
Well, I didn't want to completely rip off the VR theory website XD. I at least wanted to use my own personal evidence that I have found and thought up, although maybe including the obvious computer connections should be done in the future as further proof.
And above the civilians not giving a shit, there are actually cops doing some stuff like running around, but the guys in suits just walk around like they are getting lunch. The real funny thing is how, just like Snake and Olga, they appear out of thin air. Seriously, you see a camera shot of Raiden alone in the streets minutes after Arsenal Gear has crashed (Probalby like ten considering his codedc call), only to be completely bombarded with people a second later.
Oh, and I can't believe I fucking forgot the infinite ammo thing. I was just so tired, slipped my mind.
I second this, or even medium difficulty. MGS4 is very easy to get into gameplay wise. story on the other hand... I was into it but I skipped the scenes one subsequint playthroughs. I really hate hearing people say they missed out on that game because of the cut scenes, such a shame.
getting back on topic, even metal gear rising had great political and social writing and was surprising in its dialog about society and meme's. I loved it, very interesting. also MGS4's story was smart because its actually happening in the world. Obviously not in that scale but its easy to see a future like that, unfortunatly. I'm looking forward to Phanton Pain all the way.
KnockOneOff
Banned
It was almost like kojami himself wrote the OP with its length!
Saiyan-Rox
Member
the main reason i don't think i'll be getting this is because I haven't a damn clue what's going on
i've played all the numbered MGS and i literally hadn't the foggiest idea what's going on anymore anyone know of a good place to read and understand (or at least try to) understand the story?
and yeah i know.....Nanomachines -_-
i've played all the numbered MGS and i literally hadn't the foggiest idea what's going on anymore anyone know of a good place to read and understand (or at least try to) understand the story?
and yeah i know.....Nanomachines -_-
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It's not ripping it off if you credit the source, it's expounding a sound theory.
That's a good point.
I should've said: "You haven't even mentioned the bandana, rookie."
Did you like my answers though? ;P
OH MY GAWD!
THEY'RE USING ORPHAN BRAINS TO MAKE ROBOTS?!?!?!
I can appreciate the frustration, but I'm not sure it's necessarily fair to judge something on "what it should've been" or "what I wanted to see" as opposed to "what it is". Obviously, it's your opinion and you're of course entitled to it, I'm just saying!
Ah, true, true.
Still more futuristic than it feels comfortable for the time period.
TPP will probably touch on Zero some more. Also Ocelot. I can see not wanting to touch on the mystery of the split too. But TPP has to deliver on BB building Outer Heaven I think, and it already saddled itself with BB going into coma again. Tall order.
Feel that PO should have covered the Les Enfants Terrible project at least, but it too went into weird tangents. And yeah, MGS3 only deals with BB's loss in the end, so maybe that could be covered more. Dunno if PW does it adequately. As I said, I have more problems with PW than just the plot, so that renders it a little opaque to me.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
It's not ripping it off if you credit the source, it's expounding a sound theory.
That's a good point.
I should've said: "You haven't even mentioned the bandana, rookie."
Did you like my answers though? ;P
OH MY GAWD!THEY'RE USING ORPHAN BRAINS TO MAKE ROBOTS?!?!?!
You're answers were ok XD. I don't really think "Because it looks cool" is an answer, considering the situation and the person in charge of the game. At the very least it's meant to invoke extreme confusion over the player as VR elements are seeping their way into Raiden's reality.
Well, the only difference is Big Boss's GAME OVER slowly turns into TIME PARADOX, due to the nature of the game being a prequel. Other than that Raiden is the only character to feature a MISSION FAILED screen during the main game. The only other times MISSION FAILED pops up is VR missions.
That still doesn't explain how she knows anything about the mission. Or explain how she got the Arsenal Gear crash site. Oh, and here is another thing. I don't remember Snake ever seeing a picture of Rose. She is never seen outside of the codec, which is in Raiden's mind/head.
How does Snake pick her out of a giant crowd?
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
We'll see. At the end of the day it could boil down to a scene that shows what amounts to a shouting match, coupled with story events that show how far Zero has gone without showing him directly (like him ordering the bombing of a village/Motherbase etc.). I dunno. I'm not a game's designer. XD
Ocelot! I keep forgetting he's in this. That is gonna be interesting.
I can understand that. It is so weird playing a game that is specifically designed for mobile play on a home console, the flow is totally different and a little counter-intuitive.
The bosses were the worst of the series too. The 4 Player Co-op went someway into making them bearable.
You mean the very same guy who saw Shinkawa's drawing of a Cyborg Ninja and said "I'll have that in my game because it looks cool"?
I meant that Big Boss' Game Over screen is still aesthetically different from Solid's, but yeah. I think the "AI point-of-view" answers that though. They are studying Raiden after all.
The Rose at the end didn't know anything about the mission, did she? Is that indicated? What does she say exactly? I haven't played MGS2 in a while....
It's their anniversary. That's where they met and her boyfriend is missing. She must be worried out of her mind! Maybe she went there for comfort---HOLY SHIT WHAT THE HEL IS THAT HUGE TURTLE?! XD
She is wearing bright clothing ;P
You weren't listening or didn't happen to be around people having the conversations. I actively critiqued the cinematography and semiotics surrounding the B&B Corps immediately upon finishing the game. Seeing how little was done (or how contradictory the storytelling was with the theme) for the premise of people "broken" by war being used to fuel it, and how the particular social expectations put on women can be twisted in those events was frustrating to see.
You being unaware of discussions doesn't mean that the idea of criticizing flippant pandering is new. Wherever writing gives the impression of lost opportunity or superficial use of serious themes and ideas, it's safe to assume people are reacting to it somewhere. Even without seeing those reactions, just because a similar thing wasn't criticized previously doesn't dismiss the legitimacy of critiquing it now. I get the impression you've made a slightly more artful form of "people are only reacting because it's trendy to be outraged." I hope I don't need to dissect that idea. Thoughtless, categorical dismissal of other people's concerns has no place in a discussion board setting.