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[poppabk]

I mean, it would be the most obvious way to read the graph, right? If the division produced profit, its line would have split off further in the timeline and eventually into the net profit side that emerges on the other side.

You can even see with Azure, while it contributes to Net Profit it also contributes to Operating Expenses. So if they can show both for Azure...why not for Xbox/Microsoft Gaming?

Just admit you are reading it wrong. Clinging to your obviously incorrect interpretation just makes you look desperate.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Clearly we can assume Gaming is hugely profitable for them, so much so that they won't disclose it! Makes perfect sense. I've argued with so many people on this board about this and they live in a fantasy where the gaming division is wildly successful and profitable, especially GamePass.

There are shills like Destin and Colteastwood still pushing the idea that Game Pass is making $3 billion a year net because they assume all 25 million subs stay subbed the whole year and are paying an average of $10 a month.

They forget that churn exists for subscription services, but they only forget when that subscription service is Game Pass.

Yep.

Also, another sign that these are not just random, senseless lines is that the width of each line is different, and it represents the proportion of ratio each department contributes. If the green line from the gaming division isn't merging with the net profit section, after the operating costs are cut, there are no income there that's being added.

Exactly. I mean it's not the standard pie chart or bar graph but it's not rocket science to read, either. If the Xbox division provided net profit, it'd be reflected as contributing to that in the graph. It doesn't so we can assume there is no net profit.

Which actually lines up with what Phil Spencer (or was it Tim Stuart?) said in court: that Xbox hasn't generated a profit. That is still wild to me and I figure they are considering all the generations together, factoring in R&D, licensing, retailer cuts etc. but it just goes to show how the division hasn't been lucrative as a whole.

Then there were the years where it was folded into the Windows division so there is no telling how much money it lost them in actuality during that period.

Just admit you are reading it wrong. Clinging to your obviously incorrect interpretation just makes you look desperate.

How am I reading it wrong when you can clearly see Azure contributing to both Operating Expenses and Net Profits in the exact same graph? Are they lying about Azure's expenses and profits, too?

And why be transparent about one but not the other?

 

[poppabk]

How am I reading it wrong when you can clearly see Azure contributing to both Operating Expenses and Net Profits in the exact same graph? Are they lying about Azure's expenses and profits, too?

And why be transparent about one but not the other?

Each step is separate. SEPERATE. The way the pipes feed into revenue has no bearing on how they feed out. Not sure how I can make it any clearer, but here try your financial expertise on this one:

Your interpretation - Netflix needs to get out of Europe, Latin America and Asia fast.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

 

[shaddam]

So I just read that almost all wow GMs were fired. Wow is full of bots because there were not enogh GM before. This is a good day for goldfarmers.

 

[Klayzer]

Your first comment cancels the second unless you work for Microsoft. You don't know if those people were unnecessary, redundant, or clones. It is Sesame Street logic that if you buy a company and cut off projects/workforce/customers you are harming the market. More so if MS "would not go bankrupt anytime soon". It's even worse if they did it despite not needing to do so. Utterly disgusting from an ethical standpoint.

As for charity, it's kind of ironic you mention it, given that XBOX exists only because of Microsoft's funding. As an independent business unit it is an absolute mess. Your assumption that this is the right decision is based on faith, not on facts.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Each step is separate. SEPERATE. The way the pipes feed into revenue has no bearing on how they feed out. Not sure how I can make it any clearer, but here try your financial expertise on this one:

Your interpretation - Netflix needs to get out of Europe, Latin America and Asia fast.

Okay, fine then. Even supposing this, again I have to ask the question: out of the $22.3 billion net profit for Microsoft that quarter, how much do you realistically think came from the gaming division? Keeping in mind the points regarding the gaming operation we know of, that I was mentioning in the other reply.

I could give my own answer but I want to see what the rest of you think that number is, first.

 

[poppabk]

Okay, fine then. Even supposing this, again I have to ask the question: out of the $22.3 billion net profit for Microsoft that quarter, how much do you realistically think came from the gaming division? Keeping in mind the points regarding the gaming operation we know of, that I was mentioning in the other reply.

I could give my own answer but I want to see what the rest of you think that number is, first.

Fuck knows, probably not a whole lot, which is why they are making job cuts. Which they are also not supposed to do because they are a $3 trillion company. So we berate them for being barely profitable if at all, and also for making moves to be profitable.

 

[Klayzer]

If you only use contractors, nobody can unionise.

All the lobbying that took place with the unions and getting them to speak out in favour of the deal looks hilarious now. Played everyone like a fiddle and they all fell for it.

Microsoft - "I'm altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further"

Actvision - "You were the chosen one!"

Bobby - "Suckers"

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Okay, fine then. Even supposing this, again I have to ask the question: out of the $22.3 billion net profit for Microsoft that quarter, how much do you realistically think came from the gaming division? Keeping in mind the points regarding the gaming operation we know of, that I was mentioning in the other reply.

I could give my own answer but I want to see what the rest of you think that number is, first.

Who knows. The reason why Sony does is because gaming is a separate pillar. Xbox isn't as it's lumped into a Computing pillar that has Windows, Search, and Mouse and Keyboard kind of stuff.

So nobody knows how profitable each thing is in the Computing pillar. Just as nobody knows how profitable each line in Sonys Gaming report. The profits of their Gaming division is one vague number, yet they split out hardware, software, add-on, online/network services in sales rows, but not profit rows. Maybe all rows are super unprofitable except Software. Nobody knows.

Apple doesn't state the profit of any of their hardware like phones, Macs and watches. All of it gets lumped into one hardware profit row. And all downloads and services get lumped into one Services row too. So out of all the products and services Apple sells, it's all vaguely combined into just two rows.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Who knows. The reason why Sony does is because gaming is a separate pillar. Xbox isn't as it's lumped into a Computing pillar that has Windows, Search, and Mouse and Keyboard kind of stuff.

So nobody knows how profitable each thing is in the Computing pillar. Just as nobody knows how profitable each line in Sonys Gaming report. The profits of their Gaming division is one vague number, yet they split out hardware, software, add-on, online/network services etc.... Maybe all rows are super unprofitable except Software. Nobody knows.

Apple doesn't state the profit of any of their hardware like phones, Macs and watches. All of it gets lumped into one hardware profit row. And all downloads and services get lumped into one Services row too. So out of all the products and services Apple sells, it's all vaguely combined into just two rows.

The fact that they aren't disclosing for some (but not others) means it's highly unprofitable.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The fact that they aren't disclosing means it's highly unprofitable.

Then Apple must being losing money like crazy. They dont disclose profits by iPods, Phone, Mac, Watch either. It's one giant row.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Then Apple must being losing money like crazy. They dont disclose profits by iPods, Phone, Mac, Watch either. It's one giant row.

Apple doesn't have the discrepancy. They don't disclose individually for anything.

Microsoft does for some, but not others. Read the tea leaves.

 

[Skifi28]

Microsoft - "I'm altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further"

Actvision - "You were the chosen one!"

Bobby - "Suckers"

I still remember all those arguments that it was all about giving Bobby the boot, now Activision is finally saved.

 

[Mortisfacio]

Don't think you are reading it right. You can't tell if gaming is making a profit or not from that graph.

It's because it's not being read right. It's hilarious how much I see this graph being posted as "proof" Xbox is losing money, but that's not at all what this graph says. There's no evidence on this graph to prove one way or another. The red is the operating costs of all products/services listed, not just the bottom ones closer to the output. That's what the black band indicates. It's all piped into the overall flow. This is additionally backed up by the actual Q1 financial report that says in longer form what this graph shows. All that the overall report says is it's up 12% Y/Y, which doesn't indicate if 12% increases means profit or loss overall.

 

[Ronin_7]

I still remember all those arguments that it was all about giving Bobby the boot, now Activision is finally saved.

Activision Blizzard is in it's worst state but guess what? We got our money, Bobby retired and is no longer his business / problem.

It's Microsoft problem now a big ass problem.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Apple doesn't have the discrepancy. They don't disclose individually for anything.

Microsoft does for some, but not others. Read the tea leaves.

Sure they do. They split out their key products by sales, but not by profit.

I can see you've never read any earnings reports before.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Sure they do. They split out their key products by sales, but not by profit.

I can see you've never read any earnings reports before.

No they are not the same.

Seems like you are clueless and haven't read reports yourself.

Microsoft discloses profit for some, but not all

Apple discloses key products by sales, but not profit for any individual product.

Hint: Both companies do that to hide something.

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

The Greenberg Index is the only information you need to understand whether Xbox is profitable or not. Has he tweeted about it? If not, then it isn't.

 

[Stooky]

Fuck knows, probably not a whole lot, which is why they are making job cuts. Which they are also not supposed to do because they are a $3 trillion company. So we berate them for being barely profitable if at all, and also for making moves to be profitable.

looks more like activision studios are absorbing xbox’s losses.

 

[twilo99]

Some more misinformation here from my alternate account, can someone double check my math.. that’s a lot of hiring in the past 2 years

 

[twilo99]

Don't think you are reading it right. You can't tell if gaming is making a profit or not from that graph.

The only thing that matters in that breakdown is the profit margin, the rest is noise.

20% is just crazy tbh and it speaks volumes to how incompetent Microsoft really is as a corporation.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Some more misinformation here from my alternate account, can someone double check my math.. that’s a lot of hiring in the past 2 years

The defense force just won't give up will they

 

[twilo99]

The defense force just won't give up will they

I had to activate all my sleeper accounts….

 

[poppabk]

The only thing that matters in that breakdown is the profit margin, the rest is noise.

20% is just crazy tbh and it speaks volumes to how incompetent Microsoft really is as a corporation.

What? 20% what?

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Then Apple must being losing money like crazy. They dont disclose profits by iPods, Phone, Mac, Watch either. It's one giant row.

I have always wondered if Apple TV is losing money and being propped up by their other products.

 

[nowhat]

I bet all the Activision employees now wished Bobby K was still CEO. I dont think he gassed tons of employees.

That's the thing - you don't think he gassed tons of employees, but we don't know he didn't. Who knows, maybe he burned the bodies afterwards. There's historical precedent for that.

 

[Small John McCarthy]

They were never going to allow duplicate departments to exist post merger.

MS has HR, QA, etc…..No need to maintain those departments at ABK. It would make no sense.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Some more misinformation here from my alternate account, can someone double check my math.. that’s a lot of hiring in the past 2 years

I dont know how accurate this chart is, but here's a site. Also, the latest employee count is 17,000. If this chart is accurate, I googled it and it jumped in 2016 due to buying King Media (which was 2000 people). Stagnated for a bit, then jumped again in 2022 and 2023. Briefly googling it, I dont see a reason why Activision employees jumped 1000s more in 2022-23.

Activision Blizzard, Inc Number of Employees 2010-2023 | ATVI

Activision Blizzard, Inc number of employees from 2010 to 2023. Number of employees can be defined as a measure of financial performance calculated as operating cash flow minus capital expenditures, expressed on a per share basis

www.macrotrends.net

 

[twilo99]

What? 20% what?

my bad, it's 39% .. top right corner under "net profit"

 

[twilo99]

I dont know how accurate this chart is, but here's a site. Also, the latest employee count is 17,000. If this chart is accurate, I googled it and it jumped in 2016 due to buying King Media (which was 2000 people). Stagnated for a bit, then jumped again in 2022 and 2023. Briefly googling it, I dont see a reason why Activision employees jumped 1000s more in 2022-23.

Activision Blizzard, Inc Number of Employees 2010-2023 | ATVI

Activision Blizzard, Inc number of employees from 2010 to 2023. Number of employees can be defined as a measure of financial performance calculated as operating cash flow minus capital expenditures, expressed on a per share basis

www.macrotrends.net

Nice.. so at least in 2022 the hiring frenzy corresponded to the annual growth rate, but from 2017 to 2021? I'm sure there is more to it than that, but still, it seems like they were expanded quite a bit.

Going back down to around ~10,000 would be nice

 

[poppabk]

I dont know how accurate this chart is, but here's a site. Also, the latest employee count is 17,000. If this chart is accurate, I googled it and it jumped in 2016 due to buying King Media (which was 2000 people). Stagnated for a bit, then jumped again in 2022 and 2023. Briefly googling it, I dont see a reason why Activision employees jumped 1000s more in 2022-23.

Activision Blizzard, Inc Number of Employees 2010-2023 | ATVI

Activision Blizzard, Inc number of employees from 2010 to 2023. Number of employees can be defined as a measure of financial performance calculated as operating cash flow minus capital expenditures, expressed on a per share basis

www.macrotrends.net

They did make like 1100 QA contractors full time employees in 2022. Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them just got the boot to be replaced with... contractors.

 

[Mr Moose]

my bad, it's 39% .. top right corner under "net profit"

That's not Xbox though.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Nice.. so at least in 2022 the hiring frenzy corresponded to the annual growth rate, but from 2017 to 2021? I'm sure there is more to it than that, but still, it seems like they were expanded quite a bit.

Going back down to around ~10,000 would be nice

The annual growth rate is simply the employee growth rate, not sales growth.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

They were never going to allow duplicate departments to exist post merger.

MS has HR, QA, etc…..No need to maintain those departments at ABK. It would make no sense.

Already been established these aren't just redundancy cuts

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

I still remember all those arguments that it was all about giving Bobby the boot, now Activision is finally saved.

Ah yes Phil the white knight going "I'm rethinking our relationship!" which was pretty obviously driving down the price for buying at this point

 

[laynelane]

We are shocked because folks were claiming in the acquisition thread that jobs wouldn’t be cut post merger. Hell that other thread about Embracer had people claiming this due to MS warchest.

Not to mention all of MS' bs messaging around Unions and valuing employees pre-acquisition. That was used as ammunition to get the deal through and to shut down arguments not in favour of it.

Personally, I'm not shocked that there are lay-offs but more that people actually believed there wouldn't be. I do feel bad for the employees, though. Many of them were probably sincerely hoping their situation would improve under the MS banner.

 

[Small John McCarthy]

Already been established these aren't just redundancy cuts

Fair enough then.

 

[Varteras]

Not to mention all of MS' bs messaging around Unions and valuing employees pre-acquisition. That was used as ammunition to get the deal through and to shut down arguments not in favour of it.

Personally, I'm not shocked that there are lay-offs but more that people actually believed there wouldn't be. I do feel bad for the employees, though. Many of them were probably sincerely hoping their situation would improve under the MS banner.

Myself and others, might have even been you, said about as much in that thread. That ABK employees ought to be careful about cheering to replace Kotick with Spencer. It wasn't going to be all sunshine and rainbows. Now, three months after the deal went through, thousands lose their jobs. Entire teams axed. Some studios got their legs cut off. The head of Blizzard bounces and its last remaining founder leaves. Not because Microsoft needed to worry about its bottomline. I think it should be pretty clear at this point that the acquisition was not actually some great thing for the industry. It was a cold-blooded investment for the ambitions of a megacorporation, investors who wanted their money back, and a parachute for a CEO who was under relentless fire.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

wait i minute, are there people trying to spin the layoffs as a positive or something to that effect?

 

[Varteras]

wait i minute, are there people trying to spin the layoffs as a positive or something to that effect?

"Trimming the fat". "To be expected". "Not actual developers". Etc.

 

[Bojji]

wait i minute, are there people trying to spin the layoffs as a positive or something to that effect?

You know their agenda.

 

[Klayzer]

"Trimming the fat". "To be expected". "Not actual developers". Etc.

By the usual suspects, of course.

 

[demigod]

Topher where is your boy DeepEnigma , he’s missing out on all the fun.

 

[reinking]

I think it should be pretty clear at this point that the acquisition was not actually some great thing for the industry. It was a cold-blooded investment for the ambitions of a megacorporation, investors who wanted their money back, and a parachute for a CEO who was under relentless fire.

I still believe a big part of the acquisition was an attempt by MS/XB to get COD away from Sony. They were in too deep and had to agree to the *laughable 10-year deal.

I hate it for people that are being laid off, IMO, a bigger issue is the way it is being handled. It is just a crap situation not knowing if you are going to be let go or not. Fuck Phil for letting it happen this way on his watch.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Topher where is your boy DeepEnigma , he’s missing out on all the fun.

He's on a top secret avenger mission

 

[Varteras]

Topher where is your boy DeepEnigma , he’s missing out on all the fun.

Those two are... you know...

 

[Topher]

Topher where is your boy DeepEnigma , he’s missing out on all the fun.

I think he went and got himself a life outside of video games.

Eh....ain't worried. Just a fad. He'll be back.

 

[Pelta88]

wait i minute, are there people trying to spin the layoffs as a positive or something to that effect?

It shifted from “Well other publishers had some layoffs too.” To “These layoffs are a good thing if you view it through a prism”

In just under 48 hours.

 

[Varteras]

I still believe a big part of the acquisition was an attempt by MS/XB to get COD away from Sony. They were in too deep and had to agree to the *laughable 10-year deal.

I hate it for people that are being laid off, IMO, a bigger issue is the way it is being handled. It is just a crap situation not knowing if you are going to be let go or not. Fuck Phil for letting it happen this way on his watch.

If this would have happened two or three years later, and at a slow trickle of eliminations, it would have been easy to just handwave. I honestly think the industry in general would have been much more accepting of the idea that it was an attempt to streamline development and make it better. This is not that. This is a huge cost cutting measure mere months later. It is a blatantly heartless axing and the wild thing is it comes right after Microsoft fired over 10,000 people just last year. Even 6 months ago articles were being written about more layoffs beyond those 10,000. Meanwhile, the company hits a $3 trillion valuation, continues to bring in a couple hundred billion in revenue, and multiple tens of billions in profit. The only kind of people who can see nothing wrong with this are the people who are so willing to lock away their humanity that it should be grounds for court-ordered psychiatric care.