Support NeoGAF

[The Cartographer]

I am not convinced they are going to abandon PS4 / Pro going forward, if that's they case they are going to seriously limit their audience.

Sony will limit their audience?
They release a new hardware so of course they want people to move on and play on their new machine, instead on just buying new software for their older product.

What MS is doing is quite puzzling no matter how you look at it.

 

[pr0cs]

Sony will limit their audience?

It's not rocket science, whenever possible they're going to want to tap into that 80+ million PS4 users and have cross Gen titles whenever possible.
Which is effectively what MS has stated, they're going to have Scarlett and oneS versions of the same games when they can. I expect this will be less likely as the Gen progresses

 

[GymWolf]

I am not convinced they are going to abandon PS4 / Pro going forward, if that's they case they are going to seriously limit their audience.

They did with ps4 and it's one of the best selling console of all time.

 

[Matt_Fox]

If this is true it's huge news - it means that every multi-plat game will be gimped by having to cater to the creaky old Xbox One.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

They are finally stopping their stupid chasing of exotic hardware and are using X86, there is no reason for them to chop off their feet (and a Huge audience) by saying "we don't support PS4 anymore".

Does that mean they won't make PS5 specific games, probably not, but ALL their games? Nah, they'll still chase that huge PS4 audience whenever feasible.. Just like MS

3rd parties will chase the ps4 Audience and pay Sony 30%. Sony's responsibility is to lay the foundation of next gen as fast as possible by making it appealing to buy a ps5.
1st party studios don't chase after money, them earning money is incidental. 1st party games were always about convincing you to buy new hardware.

Just because MS pretend this isn't true, doesn't change the reality of the industry.

If this is true it's huge news - it means that every multi-plat game will be gimped by having to cater to the creaky old Xbox One.

Not quite. Every multiplat game would cater to the biggest install base . Which would be ps5 unless Sony mess up somewhere.

 

[The Cartographer]

It's not rocket science, whenever possible they're going to want to tap into that 80+ million PS4 users and have cross Gen titles whenever possible.
Which is effectively what MS has stated, they're going to have Scarlett and oneS versions of the same games when they can. I expect this will be less likely as the Gen progresses

For hardware houses (expect MS, it seems) games are here to sell consoles, not the opposite.
Never forget that.

 

[pr0cs]

For hardware houses (expect MS, it seems) games are here to sell consoles, not the opposite.
Never forget that.

Never forget that selling software to 80 million is worth more than software to < 80 million.. Simple economics.

 

[CatLady]

They did with ps4 and it's one of the best selling console of all time.

PS3 is not compatible with PS4 games which is the reason they claimed they couldn't have BC on PS4

 

[ZywyPL]

That's bad. Really bad. And some people in the thread are so delusional that's not even funny, I mean - a PS2 game, even running on emulator in 8K 120FPS is still a PS2 game, a very limited and primitive game. You can surely take any PS4/XB1 game, bump it to 4K, 60FPS, add RT and say it's taking advantage of the new hardware, which will be true, but the limitations of the new hardware will begin no later than at the design phase, not on the already finished product. Take BF3 for example - one of the first cross-gen titles - it DID take advantage of the PS4/XB1 - higher resolution, 60FPS, better graphics on top of that, and 64 players in MP mode, BUT, at the same time - it had SERIOUSLY toned down physics and destruction ever since, every BF that was released on the new-gen hardware was being toned down more and more on the aspect that really made it stood out of the crowd. And this is what the next-gen platforms will get if the games will also have to run on the PS4/XB1 - a prettier and faster PS4/XB1 games, nothing more. Think of the current situation of PC, where even ~10x more processing power is basically being put in use for just a mere resolution and framerate bump, nothing more. Just look at all those X019 games, they're not even X1X-worthy, let alone Scarlett...

For hardware houses (expect MS, it seems) games are here to sell consoles, not the opposite.
Never forget that.

Consoles themselves don't generate income, current gen is an exception and even this is just a mere few bucks per unit, not to mention they cost billions of dollars to develop, so no, that's not how it works, for anyone. It's more of a closed loop, where the companies need games (launch titles) to sell the consoles, so the more consoles there are the more games (and subscriptions) can sell down the line, but when there are more and more games to offer, more and more consoles sell, on which more and more games can be sold, and the cycle continues. And that's exactly MS's business plan as of now, they want to be able sell you a game or a subscription without the need you having their console, than can charge you on Switch, on PC, on mobile phones, basically they remove the sales bottleneck that is the console itself - because if you have a 50MLN userbase, that's the most you can sell if you tide up everything you have to offer to that one particular console, whereas if you can offer the same things on 2BLN devices, there is quite a big chance you will earn way more than with traditional model. Because bare in mind it's a business, it's all about the money at the end of the day.

 

[Vawn]

Forcing third-parties to make the game run on hardware that is extremely underpowered compared to current gen is a GREAT idea......

Just ask Nintendo.

I can't wait until thitd-partirs just don't bother making an Xbox version because they don't want to rework the game to run on the ancient base Xbox One. All the "lazy devs" comments will be gold.

 

[Shifty]

There is ZERO reason this would change how complicated Scarlet games can be. I know you think CPU calculations won’t be possible on older hardware, but even that can be scaled back with ease.

This isn't accurate. In order to scale on the CPU you need to design a system that is in and of itself scalable, or use middleware that covers your use case and is already built with scaling in mind.

It doesn't come anywhere near as easy as the asset workflows you mention, which are all optimized for scale because asset usage and rendering is a use case common to every game. It's a known, and solved, problem. There are some CPU-side workflows that have received similar attention (physics with PhysX/Havok/Bullet, for example) but always for general-purpose problems.

Gameplay is for the most part not a general-purpose problem. Case in point something like Stalker: Anomaly on PC- that game simulates several maps full of AI-driven NPCs at the same time regardless of whether the player is present in order to achieve a believable living game world without resorting to CPU-saving trickery.

You can't do that on minimum-spec console hardware without compromising the design, because there simply isn't enough CPU power available. Less simulated maps means time stops when you leave an area, coarser simulation steps for non-visible maps mean physics bugs or time dilation, converting it into a procedurally generated event queue that's applied upon re-entry means you can no longer track things happening in real-time via the game's communication network and map uplink.

So no, scaling is not simply done 'with ease' when it comes the CPU, and Stalker is just one of many examples of gameplay design that actively taxes the hardware enough to prove that.

Games in the general case are designed with scalable gameplay (ex. less zombies in a crowd, slower AI processing for far-away NPCs) because weak console hardware imposes a design ceiling, not because you'll never need more than a weak Jaguar core to realise your design.

Having a min spec means that isn't going to change any time soon.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

I said apart from a few fringe cases for a reason. By and large the vast majority of the time, this sort of thing isn’t an issue.

 

[onQ123]

Forcing third-parties to make the game run on hardware that is extremely underpowered compared to current gen is a GREAT idea......

Just ask Nintendo.

I can't wait until thitd-partirs just don't bother making an Xbox version because they don't want to rework the game to run on the ancient base Xbox One. All the "lazy devs" comments will be gold.

On the flip side how many devs/publishers you think will be happy to give up a user base that's over 150 million to make games that are only playable on Xbox Scarlet /PS5 if they have a slow launch ?

 

[Deanington]

Really for me, if you want me to be excited about anything "next gen" ( regardless of platform ) improve on facial animations/uncanny valley. However you would phrase that. I don't care what plays on what. That is one of the top things in gaming when it comes to these realistic games, that take me out of the experience. On top of the shit writing. Graphics are graphics and they look amazing. Trying to make digital people more realistic however. I mean they look a lot better and are improving, but damn... I much prefer cartoony type games because of this. These attempts at making these movie games are just not there when it comes to animation. Older static games drew me in more because they were so removed from realism (even with a realistic tone), it left the imagination in tact. At this point, next gen for me is beyond pretty environments and platforms but to continue to improve on animations/expressions.

 

[vpance]

These are probably the main concerns by keeping last gen as the base. None of these can be part of the core gameplay:

-more realistic physics/destructibility
-large scale world permanence
-better/more AI instances

So basically everything that everyone wants out of future open world games.

 

[ManaByte]

These are probably the main concerns by keeping last gen as the base. None of these can be part of the core gameplay:

-more realistic physics/destructibility
-large scale world permanence
-better/more AI instances

So basically everything that everyone wants out of future open world games.

Show the receipts where Microsoft is keeping the Xbox One S as the lead console for next gen.

 

[Vawn]

On the flip side how many devs/publishers you think will be happy to give up a user base that's over 150 million to make games that are only playable on Xbox Scarlet /PS5 if they have a slow launch ?

But they always have the choice. Developers can always choose to make both PS4 and PS5 versions of games, and most definitely will for a period. Both consoles will be BC, so they can even sell it as a single game and label it as a PS5 and PS4 title of they wish.

The issues will arise when they are forced to have the Scarlet game run on a base XBO.

 

[vpance]

Show the receipts where Microsoft is keeping the Xbox One S as the lead console for next gen.

You didn't read what I wrote. If some theoretical open world game was to have a storyline/missions that changed depending on what got destroyed, it just wouldn't be made because it has to be on X1 too. It affects the designers decisions on what makes it into the core gameplay.

 

[DeepEnigma]

In the beginning, I expect "cross-gen". It is always this way. 3+ years down the line when games want to exploit the bandwidth, CPU power, SSD tricks, and more Flops as a baseline... they better burn that S in a pit of fire.

 

[ManaByte]

In the beginning, I expect "cross-gen". It is always this way. 3+ years down the line when games want to exploit the bandwidth, CPU power, SSD tricks, and more Flops as a baseline... they better burn that S in a pit of fire.

By then the S and even X would be retired. People will be talking about the Scarlet X by then.

 

[vkbest]

Sony will limit their audience?
They release a new hardware so of course they want people to move on and play on their new machine, instead on just buying new software for their older product.

What MS is doing is quite puzzling no matter how you look at it.

Microsoft is making a good thing, it’s pretty stupid to ignore and huge market to forcing people to buy a new console. Besides Its impossible to make games to 4K/60fps on new consoles if you want have more advanced graphics we have currently.

I could play several years more with current graphics (horizon, assassins, GOW, uncharted, death stranding, etc)

 

[DeepEnigma]

By then the S and even X would be retired. People will be talking about the Scarlet X by then.

That is what I hope will happen.

 

[Self_Destructive]

The simple fact of the matter is that it's fine... for the first little bit... but very quickly developers will want to use that CPU power to push games with physics based gameplay and AI that simply would not run well at all on current gen console CPUs. Not to mention the games would have to be retooled completely to work within those systems limited I/O for games which were truly pushing next gen experiences.

They could make it work.. probably... but the experience wouldn't be anything that people would want.

Render-wise... there would be no problem.. you can make a game look as shitty as you have to... It's the game design and physics/AI which would be limited and possibly be game changing.

 

[Deanington]

EDIT: Repetitive commenting, lol.

 

[Matt_Fox]

These are probably the main concerns by keeping last gen as the base. None of these can be part of the core gameplay:

-more realistic physics/destructibility
-large scale world permanence
-better/more AI instances

So basically everything that everyone wants out of future open world games.

/\ this chap gets it. The worry isn't about resolution and frame rate, the worry is about creative design and ambitious gameplay elements that could be realised on PS5 and Scarlett being dropped from a game because they cant be realised on the Xbox One S.

 

[Nickolaidas]

That is horrible, horrible news.

BC is one thing. Dragging down future games in order for them to run to the lowest power level of a past console is another.

As many posters said before me, an Xbox One S version of a Scarlett game cannot just be a lower resolution version with less polys and be done with it. The new CPUs that the next gen consoles are going to have will allow for things an Xbox One S wouldn't be able to do in a thousand years.

I really hope this is just PR speech for 1 year of cross-gen titles. If it turns out to be true, the only jaw-dropping games next gen are going to be the PS5 exclusives.

 

[The Brooklyn Brawler]

Cant wait to play all these new games in my original xbox

 

[TeamGhobad]

then whats the point in upgrading?

 

[Racer!]

LOL they are making another Kinect mistake but doesnt surprise me. Xbox is nothing else than a business for Microsoft, no creative dna whatsover. Quarterly earnings is king.

Sony is gonna absolutely crush them come this generation.

Jim Ryan`s comments about getting PS4 owners to migrate to PS5 as quickly as possible makes perfect sense now. They probably wants to take advantage of the new tech as soon and fully as possible.

Also in the Wired interview, Cerny was very keen to point out PS5 would enable gameplay experiences not possible on PS4. They had no intention to release another PS4 Pro.

 

[Nickolaidas]

LOL they are making another Kinect mistake but doesnt surprise me. Xbox is nothing else than a business for Microsoft, no creative dna whatsover. Quarterly earnings is king.

Sony is gonna absolutely crush them come this generation.

Jim Ryan`s comments about getting PS4 owners to migrate to PS5 as quickly as possible makes perfect sense now. They probably wants to take advantage of the new tech as soon and fully as possible.

The PS5 isn't going to escape unscathed from this bruhaha. Third-party devs and studios which will make multiplatform games will STILL need to take the Xbox One S in equation when designing their games and thinking about AI scripts which must run on a Xbox One S CPU and GPU. So Resident Evil 8 and 9, Mortal Kombat 12, Monster Hunter World 2, Dark Souls 4, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider, and hundreds of other games will need to run on a Xbox One S.

This. Is. Horrendous.

 

[Flintty]

I’m not fussed about graphics, that’s scalable. I’m more concerned with it holding back innovation (better AI, destruction mechanics or crazy innovative shit I can’t imagine).

 

[Racer!]

The PS5 isn't going to escape unscathed from this bruhaha. Third-party devs and studios which will make multiplatform games will STILL need to take the Xbox One S in equation when designing their games and thinking about AI scripts which must run on a Xbox One S CPU and GPU. So Resident Evil 8 and 9, Mortal Kombat 12, Monster Hunter World 2, Dark Souls 4, Final Fantasy, Tomb Raider, and hundreds of other games will need to run on a Xbox One S.

This. Is. Horrendous.

Not sure for how long Xbox will be relevant to be honest. They did a fine job butchering it already. It may hurt PS5 at first though.

 

[vpance]

That is horrible, horrible news.

BC is one thing. Dragging down future games in order for them to run to the lowest power level of a past console is another.

As many posters said before me, an Xbox One S version of a Scarlett game cannot just be a lower resolution version with less polys and be done with it. The new CPUs that the next gen consoles are going to have will allow for things an Xbox One S wouldn't be able to do in a thousand years.

I really hope this is just PR speech for 1 year of cross-gen titles. If it turns out to be true, the only jaw-dropping games next gen are going to be the PS5 exclusives.

The trouble is how he worded it. For the "foreseeable future" doesn't sound like your average post launch cross gen window.

If it turns out that by 2022 XB1 software sales still account for 25% of the total of all Xbox versions then they'll probably want to keep it alive.

It all depends on how successful Scarlett is. I don't think they can transition as well as Sony since they don't have the momentum. So they want to keep their existing install base in play for as long as they can.

 

[onQ123]

But they always have the choice. Developers can always choose to make both PS4 and PS5 versions of games, and most definitely will for a period. Both consoles will be BC, so they can even sell it as a single game and label it as a PS5 and PS4 title of they wish.

The issues will arise when they are forced to have the Scarlet game run on a base XBO.

I'll be attacked for this (Nothing new) but I don't think Microsoft is planning on Scarlett carrying a whole new generation of Software on it's on. Scarlett will be there for people who want a new Xbox Console but next gen Xbox software will not live or die by the sales of Scarlett.

 

[CeeJay]

What you are describing doesn't actually benefit Microsoft at all. You are saying Microsoft doesn't care that less people buy Scarlet because there would be no game that requires it.

Well, if Ms truly doesn't care to sell consoles, they are certainly doing a good job of following through. But that would lead to long term issues... Like 3rd party games selling less on Scarlet because there are less Scarlet owners than the PS5.

Sure it does, it provides a more stable userbase like I said earlier. Distinct generations cause a boom and bust pattern on the sales whereas if you have a rolling userbase then you have a more steady revenue stream. This also plays towards the subscription model where Microsoft would prefer to get a steady monthly sub from the userbase instead of single game sales. Microsoft also don't care where you choose to play the games and don't mind if you choose not to buy Scarlett on day one as long as you are in the eco system playing the games somewhere. If you want to stay within the eco system and currently own an Xbox then you will probably upgrade eventually. They make little profit on the hardware itself so why should they be to worried if you don't buy one yet but are still paying your subs?

 

[CeeJay]

then whats the point in upgrading?

Same reasons people upgraded to the X. To run the Latest games at the highest levels.

 

[Nickolaidas]

The trouble is how he worded it. For the "foreseeable future" doesn't sound like your average post launch cross gen window.

If it turns out that by 2022 XB1 software sales still account for 25% of the total of all Xbox versions then they'll probably want to keep it alive.

It all depends on how successful Scarlett is. I don't think they can transition as well as Sony since they don't have the momentum. So they want to keep their existing install base in play for as long as they can.

The Xbox One S userbase will evaporate the second a major IP's sequel will be Sony exclusive because said sequel couldn't run on an Xbox One S without severely compromising the devs' vision. Imagine Monster Hunter World 2 being a PS5 exclusive because Capcom couldn't make it work on the S and MS wouldn't let Capcom release MHW2 as a Scarlett-only game.

I get and respect what MS is (apparently) doing, but it's just not feasible.

 

[Nickolaidas]

I mean, can you imagine developers making applications for Windows 10 that could ALSO run on Windows 3.1 ?

 

[jshackles]

The Xbox One S userbase will evaporate the second a major IP's sequel will be Sony exclusive because said sequel couldn't run on an Xbox One S without severely compromising the devs' vision. Imagine Monster Hunter World 2 being a PS5 exclusive because Capcom couldn't make it work on the S and MS wouldn't let Capcom release MHW2 as a Scarlett-only game.

I get and respect what MS is (apparently) doing, but it's just not feasible.

I mean - they let Star Wars run at 540p on the S so I think your fears might be slightly blown out of proportion.

 

[mckmas8808]

MS is either lying to us directly, or they are the dumbest Billion dollar company on planet Earth!

 

[Fbh]

Sounds dumb.
My bet is they'll do some sneaky PR move and next time they talk about this it's going to be changed to: "all our new games will be available on Xbox One S for years to come...... through the project X cloud app!!!"

If this is true it's huge news - it means that every multi-plat game will be gimped by having to cater to the creaky old Xbox One.

I might be reading this wrong but it sounds to me like they are talking about their own games. Telling devs to make their games compatible with the One S or not being able to release on Xbox would be a dumb way to lose a bunch of franchises and give Sony a bunch of free "console exclusives"

 

[Nickolaidas]

I mean - they let Star Wars run at 540p on the S so I think your fears might be slightly blown out of proportion.

Again, we're not talking ONLY about resolution and textures. We're talking about superior CPU and GPUs which will be able to run superior AI scripts that the Xbox One S (or the Pro for that matter) simply isn't able to.

 

[mckmas8808]

Again, we're not talking ONLY about resolution and textures. We're talking about superior CPU and GPUs which will be able to run superior AI scripts that the Xbox One S (or the Pro for that matter) simply isn't able to.

This will make MS' 1st party games "feel" a generation behind...........literally!

 

[NahaNago]

Well considering that Microsoft is a pc software company this isn't that crazy. I was wondering if Sony was going to do the same actually since they have a much larger number of ps4 owners. The only question then becomes which console will be the one that Sony's first party will make the core experience.


This also is the norm for pc gamers.

 

[mckmas8808]

Well considering that Microsoft is a pc software company this isn't that crazy. I was wondering if Sony was going to do the same actually since they have a much larger number of ps4 owners. The only question then becomes which console will be the one that Sony's first party will make the core experience.


This also is the norm for pc gamers.

Sony's already said they will NOT be doing this. Their PS5 games will target the PS5 to be the "core experience" for most 1st party games.

 

[Matt_Fox]

Actually I just went back and read what Matt Booty from Xbox actually said. The "foreseeable future" bit didn't come from him but from the girl that wrote the article, and is likely a click baity leap she made.

The actual quote from Matt Booty is rather softer and less definitive than we feared:

"Perhaps we feel confident about our content pipeline so that we feel like we don't have to save everything up. But then I will also say that, really for any device these days, when you launch a new device you are not eliminating all of the devices in that family. When Scarlett launches there will still be the Xbox One S out there, there will still be Xbox One X, and we really need to approach that family of devices, the same way we approach PC - content scales to meet the device. I think that's going to be the case for anybody."

 

[jshackles]

Again, we're not talking ONLY about resolution and textures. We're talking about superior CPU and GPUs which will be able to run superior AI scripts that the Xbox One S (or the Pro for that matter) simply isn't able to.

But compute power between the two architectures is mostly compatible and can scale with emulation. The same things (should) be possible, albeit MUCH slower. In most games this will translate into slower loading times, stuttering, etc.

To use Red Dead 2 again as an example, here is a video of someone playing it on the pre-set "low" settings using the minimum hardware requirements:



Yes I know we're not just talking about resolution and textures, but AI and the likes. The game runs on a CPU that was manufactured 8 years ago, because it's instruction set is functionally similar to modern CPUs, it's just slower.

It's not a huge leap of logic to think that you'd get similar results running a game designed for Scarlett on the One S. It won't be pretty, it'll run slow, but it'll still be "playable".

 

[Rolling_Start]

Okay, take a chill pill folks and take a look at that T3 article.

The following paragraph is not presented as a quote from Matt Booty, it appears to be the reporter presenting what they understand MS's position to be:

Xbox's Matt Booty says that Microsoft isn't holding any games back for the Scarlett because the new releases for the foreseeable future are intended to be playable across the whole Xbox family.

But the actual quotes from M. Booty only say:
- don't have to save everything up for [Scarlett]
- when you launch a new device you are not eliminating all of the devices in that family
- bla bla content scaling
- also want to understand that there will be a family of Xbox devices out there.

Nothing ruling out games targeting Scarlett even a short way down the line

Besides: Was this woman actually the one interviewing him? Where is the full transcript? And using VGchartz as a source on sales? This T3 article reads like original article leeching clickbait shit. But there's no crediting or linkage. So I'll have a look in a minute.

Forcing third-parties to make the game run on hardware that is extremely underpowered compared to current gen is a GREAT idea......

Just ask Nintendo.

I can't wait until thitd-partirs just don't bother making an Xbox version because they don't want to rework the game to run on the ancient base Xbox One. All the "lazy devs" comments will be gold.

There is no mention of third parties. And Matt Booty is only responsible for Microsoft Studios. And the quote in the OP that is really setting people off isn't actually from him, it's from the reported.

It is unlikely that MS would choose to unveil their entire Scarlett strategy and roadmap, well before Scarlett is unveiled, and to the T3 (?) "we also cover games, a little bit" website.

 

[mckmas8808]

But compute power between the two architectures is mostly compatible and can scale with emulation. The same things (should) be possible, albeit MUCH slower. In most games this will translate into slower loading times, stuttering, etc.

To use Red Dead 2 again as an example, here is a video of someone playing it on the pre-set "low" settings using the minimum hardware requirements:



Yes I know we're not just talking about resolution and textures, but AI and the likes. The game runs on a CPU that was manufactured 8 years ago, because it's instruction set is functionally similar to modern CPUs, it's just slower.

It's not a huge leap of logic to think that you'd get similar results running a game designed for Scarlett on the One S. It won't be pretty, it'll run slow, but it'll still be "playable".

I'm sorry, but game development doesn't work that way. If a game is designed to run on a console with 20 GBs of RAM, there's no way it'll run on the xbox one s and be worth a darn.

 

[FrostyJ93]

Anyone with common sense knows he means for the first couple years. Happened last gen gonna happen this gen.

Fable will probably be their first Scarlett-only game.