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Naughty Dog: "We’re probably only using 30 or 40 per cent of the power of the PS3"

deepbrown

Member
i hate bees said:
And funnily enough, he's often right.

Naughty Dog should shut up until they're ready to deliver the goods, I'm sure when Uncharted is running if someone put a resource monitor on the PS3 it wouldn't read "30/40%", sure they might find ways to optimize or improve but to bullshit about some POWER LIMIT just turns developer conferences in to Dragon Ball Z.

They already have.
 
i hate bees said:
And funnily enough, he's often right.

Naughty Dog should shut up until they're ready to deliver the goods, I'm sure when Uncharted is running if someone put a resource monitor on the PS3 it wouldn't read "30/40%", sure they might find ways to optimize or improve but to bullshit about some POWER LIMIT just turns developer conferences in to Dragon Ball Z.

Um...what?

Naughty Dog is considering one of the best if not the best parallel coders in the business. Valve's very own Gabe Newell who heavily dislikes such a multiprocessor approach said he thinks Naughty Dog is probably best dev team for this stuff. And look at Carmack who again like Valve doesn't really like multi-processor set-ups to begin with, he to was praising the fact they got a coder that was once from Naughty Dog on their team.

And shut up until they're ready to deliver the goods....seriously? What? They released Uncharted already, easily one of the best looking consoles games on the market.
 

[Nintex]

Member
deepbrown said:
Uh...you don't know what you're talking about. ND are the best in the business...and are experienced with the PS3 - that's why they can say they see 60-70% more/performance increase and...a another team that creates a lesser game cannot and say they've reached 100%
What does a 70% performance increase mean anyway?

They could just say: "Yeah we could add a couple of polygons to the environments and add some light sources" why does it have to be "there's still 70% of POWAH, hidden beyond our grasp in the PS3... but one day we take control of this immense power". 70% more power makes as much sense as some nutjob claiming he saw Jesus in Gran Turismo code, or wait there was one...

The funny thing is that even they said that talking about percentages is stupid. Someone should ask them in an interview why they changed their opinion. For the record I don't doubt Naughty Dogs excellence in coding, I do however doubt that there's 70% hidden power in the PS3.
 

deepbrown

Member
[Nintex] said:
What does a 70% performance increase mean anyway?

They could just say: "Yeah we could add a couple of polygons to the environments and add some light sources" why does it have to be "there's still 70% of POWAH, hidden beyond our grasp in the PS3... but one day we take control of this immense power". 70% more power makes as much sense as some nutjob claiming he saw Jesus in Gran Turismo code, or wait there was one...

The funny thing is that even they said that talking about percentages is stupid. Someone should ask them in an interview why they changed their opinion. For the record I don't doubt Naughty Dogs excellence in coding, I do however doubt that there's 70% hidden power in the PS3.
The percentage itself is not accurate. It's a guesstimate to both help them in how much more they think they can achieve, and how much they believe they are getting out of the theoretical power. It's also something very easy for the videogaming audience to understand. Though talking of percentage may have little accuracy/relevance in development, it can easily suggest to outsiders the gains that might be made.

And ND isn't a godly being - it's a collection of individuals who have different opinions and a different understanding of what people want to hear.
 

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
They've said this a bunch of times now. But saying this I think what they really want to say is "wait until you see all the cool shit we added in Uncharted 2".

Still, I'd say they use the " extra" power to make the surroundings more interactive or something. More shootable objects instead of all the barrels, and maybe be able to shoot through the plants and whatnot. Playing through the first time now, and it's getting pretty damn linear. I'm probably asking for too much here and stuff we'll start seeing in the next-generation. But if there's anyone who can show this already, it's Naughty Dog. I'm pretty convinced on that.

I really hope we see improvements on the level of Resistance to Resistance 2 with the Uncharted sequel. That unveiling better blow me away!
 
i hate bees said:
And funnily enough, he's often right.

Naughty Dog should shut up until they're ready to deliver the goods, I'm sure when Uncharted is running if someone put a resource monitor on the PS3 it wouldn't read "30/40%", sure they might find ways to optimize or improve but to bullshit about some POWER LIMIT just turns developer conferences in to Dragon Ball Z.

They've created what's widely seen as one of the most technically impressive games this generation with Uncharted. They're also responsible for co-creating the Edge tools. They along with Insomniac probably know the PS3 better than any other developer. If anything, their word when it comes to the system is much more valuable than other developers.
 

Slavik81

Member
Haven't we realized that those sorts of quotes don't actually mean anything? Why do these stupid quotes still get full threads?

Percentage of hardware utilization isn't even directly correlated to anything in-game anyways. Not graphics, not number of enemies. Nothing.
 

deepbrown

Member
pswii60 said:
EDIT: nvm, why bother arguing with frickin' deepbrown!?
Just because you praised it doesn't mean my response to your first comment is irrelevant. This isn't a cock waving contest. You made a statement, I made a counter-argument. You either agree or you don't. If you do agree you say "Yes I agree, and I also happened to praise the game in my post", if you don't you say "No i don't agree" and you ellaboarte on why. That's how one debates. Noones arguing.

You're saying they should have "used" the power to get rid of the tearing, i'm saying they will "use" the power to get rid of the tearing in Uncharted 2. Their framerate will already be much higher at this point. So in that way they are catering to your request.
 

kevm3

Member
The attempts to spin these remarks into something negative is hilarious. I don't really know what, specifically, the 30 to 40 percent capability usage is referring to exactly, but really, it doesn't matter. Uncharted came out within the first year of the PS3. Look at what came out in the first year of PS2's lifespan and compare it to God of War 2. The jump in quality is monumental. What's to prevent the same from happening there? Bottom line is, there is significant room for improvement.

What is also a bit funny is some people saying that Naughty Dog needs to put up and shut up when they've been some of the most impressive console developers around. Then we have guys quoting Carmack. He's an awesome PC programmer, but what's the last great thing he's done on consoles? Doom 3 on Xbox? What's the last great technical achievement he has had with the playstation brand?

Would anyone care to assist me in posting a PS2 "beginning of life cycle" and "end of life cycle" screenshot comparison?
 

pswii60

Member
McDragon said:
Naughty Dog said:
Any developer who gives you a “percent of system used” answer is blowing smoke.
Naughty Dog said:
We’re probably only using 30 or 40 per cent of the power of the PS3
:lol
deepbrown said:
Just because you praised it doesn't mean my response to your first comment is irrelevant. This isn't a cock waving contest. You made a statement, I made a counter-argument. You either agree or you don't. If you do agree you say "Yes I agree, and I also happened to praise the game in my post", if you don't you say "No i don't agree" and you ellaboarte on why. That's how one debates. Noones arguing.

You're saying they should have "used" the power to get rid of the tearing, i'm saying they will "use" the power to get rid of the tearing in Uncharted 2. Their framerate will already be much higher at this point. So in that way they are catering to your request.
What's with all these long winded responses? Do you think I'm actually going to read all that nonsense?
kevm3 said:
The attempts to spin these remarks into something negative is hilarious. I don't really know what, specifically, the 30 to 40 percent capability usage is referring to exactly, but really, it doesn't matter. Uncharted came out within the first year of the PS3. Look at what came out in the first year of PS2's lifespan and compare it to God of War 2. The jump in quality is monumental. What's to prevent the same from happening there? Bottom line is, there is significant room for improvement.

What is also a bit funny is some people saying that Naughty Dog needs to put up and shut up when they've been some of the most impressive console developers around. Then we have guys quoting Carmack. He's an awesome PC programmer, but what's the last great thing he's done on consoles? Doom 3 on Xbox? What's the last great technical achievement he has had with the playstation brand?

Would anyone care to assist me in posting a PS2 "beginning of life cycle" and "end of life cycle" screenshot comparison?
It does matter. In this thread. As it's the whole point of this thread. Check the thread title.
 
If they can get a % grasp on how much they're using, why can't they grab the other 60-70% ?

Isn't this the same ND who contradicted themselves with the percentage farcial talk too? Lovely game ND (best PS3 game in fact), but percentage talk is bullshit and admitting so beforehand is even worse.
 

deepbrown

Member
pswii60 said:
:lol

What's with all these long winded responses? Do you think I'm actually going to read all that nonsense?

It does matter. In this thread. As it's the whole point of this thread. Check the thread title.
Because you edited your post after I had written mine? Because I gave you the courtesy of responding in full? Because i respect you more than you appear to respect me?
 

deepbrown

Member
Zedsdeadbaby said:
If they can get a % grasp on how much they're using, why can't they grab the other 60-70% ?

Isn't this the same ND who contradicted themselves with the percentage farcial talk too? Lovely game ND (best PS3 game in fact), but percentage talk is bullshit and admitting so beforehand is even worse.
You know why they can't.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
i hate bees said:
And funnily enough, he's often right.

Naughty Dog should shut up until they're ready to deliver the goods, I'm sure when Uncharted is running if someone put a resource monitor on the PS3 it wouldn't read "30/40%", sure they might find ways to optimize or improve but to bullshit about some POWER LIMIT just turns developer conferences in to Dragon Ball Z.

They haven't delivered? Their first game on the PS3 blended platforming with melee and shooting seamlessly in huge seamless streaming environments while technically is still the most impressive game on the console.
 
Slavik81 said:
Haven't we realized that those sorts of quotes don't actually mean anything? Why do these stupid quotes still get full threads?

Percentage of hardware utilization isn't even directly correlated to anything in-game anyways. Not graphics, not number of enemies. Nothing.

To use for or against for system wars fodder, and the one thing seems to be true in all in teh system warz!!, experienced acknowledged devs whether they be Gabe, Carmack, or ND apparently don't know what they're talking.

The truth of the matter is no, they all clearly know what they're talking about, it's just they have their own bias opinions and experiences that's all.
 

Madman

Member
So, um, yeah, Uncharted 2 should be pretty cool. But don't mind me. You all are obviously very busy digging up old quotes and arguing the finer points of developers trying to explain power usage in consoles.
 

pswii60

Member
deepbrown said:
Because you edited your post after I had written mine? Because I gave you the courtesy of responding in full? Because i respect you more than you appear to respect me?
And here we go again.
Kittonwy said:
They haven't delivered? Their first game on the PS3 blended platforming with melee and shooting seamlessly in huge seamless streaming environments while technically is still the most impressive game on the console.
Agreed. I think the 'power' remarks they've made are retarded and completely 2001 DC vs PS2 era bullshit. HOWEVER, Uncharted is a fuck-awesome game, and still by far my favourite PS3 game to date (sorry MGS4). So, oodles of respect for the ND crew. Just not so much for whoever made this 'power' comment. I thought we were well past all that nonsense. We know all console's have their strengths and weaknesses, but ultimately, the proof is in the pudding, or should I say, the eating.
 

deepbrown

Member
pswii60 said:
And here we go again.
Do you agree or not? ND will use the power to get rid of tearing thus rendering your quip self-defeating. And I've already stated that the percentage is irrelevant/inaccurate.
 

Mrbob

Member
Side note: Isn't Uncharted supposed to be a Greatest Hits title now?

I saw Motorstorm and Ninja Gaiden Sigma at Best Buy Greatest Hits boxes ready to be bought, but Uncharted was still at $59.99.
 

pswii60

Member
deepbrown said:
Do you agree or not? ND will use the power to get rid of tearing thus rendering your quip self-defeating. And I've already stated that the percentage is irrelevant/inaccurate.
Of course I agree with that statement. I never disagreed with it, so I don't know why you keep going on about it. You don't know when to drop things.

But the same can be said of ANY game. All games have deadlines. Sequels therefore generally improve on the engine and fix issues.
 

deepbrown

Member
Madman said:
So, um, yeah, Uncharted 2 should be pretty cool. But don't mind me. You all are obviously very busy digging up old quotes and arguing the finer points of developers trying to explain power usage in consoles.
Exactly...how else should he get it across that they can get a lot more out of the machine to plebs who have no idea about console development? He says percentage to aid understanding, not to make a technical point.

pswii60 said:
Of course I agree with that statement. I never disagreed with it, so I don't know why you keep going on about it.
Because you said "why bother arguing with frickin deepbrown"...when you obv weren't going to argue at all. So why not just say "I agree?

And of course it's the same with any game, that's why I'm so confident in the statement.
 

[Nintex]

Member
deepbrown said:
You know why they can't.
I they can't use the power right now how are they so sure it's there.
They might do all these crazy programming tricks, open up the gates to the hidden PS3 cores and find out that they were taken out to cut PS3 production costs after Kutaragi was kicked out...
 
kevm3 said:
The attempts to spin these remarks into something negative is hilarious. I don't really know what, specifically, the 30 to 40 percent capability usage is referring to exactly, but really, it doesn't matter. Uncharted came out within the first year of the PS3. Look at what came out in the first year of PS2's lifespan and compare it to God of War 2. The jump in quality is monumental. What's to prevent the same from happening there? Bottom line is, there is significant room for improvement.

What is also a bit funny is some people saying that Naughty Dog needs to put up and shut up when they've been some of the most impressive console developers around. Then we have guys quoting Carmack. He's an awesome PC programmer, but what's the last great thing he's done on consoles? Doom 3 on Xbox? What's the last great technical achievement he has had with the playstation brand?

Exactly. Ok, so tossing around some percentages doesn't really mean much. Ultimately though, anyone in here acting as if this developer doesn't have a leg to stand on, shouldn't really be taken very seriously. Drakes Fortune is an amazing game. ND's work should speak for them when someone's questioning their comments.
 

Kittonwy

Banned
Mrbob said:
Side note: Isn't Uncharted supposed to be a Greatest Hits title now?

I saw Motorstorm and Ninja Gaiden Sigma at Best Buy Greatest Hits boxes ready to be bought, but Uncharted was still at $59.99.

But then UNCHARTED is a better game than both of those combined.
 

deepbrown

Member
[Nintex] said:
I they can't use the power right now how are they so sure it's there.
They might do all these crazy programming tricks, open up the gates to the hidden PS3 cores and find out that they were taken out to cut PS3 production costs after Kutaragi was kicked out...
They don't know they'll get the next 60-70%, but they'll try.
 

Slavik81

Member
HomerSimpson-Man said:
To use for or against for system wars fodder, and the one thing seems to be true in all in teh system warz!!, experienced acknowledged devs whether they be Gabe, Carmack, or ND apparently don't know what they're talking.

The truth of the matter is no, they all clearly know what they're talking about, it's just they have their own bias opinions and experiences that's all.
I didn't say they didn't know what they were talking about. I'm saying that this is marketing bullshit, just like the wars that were fought over the number of bits a console was.
 

Madman

Member
deepbrown said:
Exactly...how else should he get it across that they can get a lot more out of the machine to plebs who have no idea about console development? He says percentage to aid understanding, not to make a technical point.
If you ask some in this thread, anything besides a percentage.

It really doesn't matter and I can't believe that you guys have argued about this for this long. I mean really, who gives a shit that he used a percentage value for power used in some interview? You guys will argue about anything. :lol
 

deepbrown

Member
Slavik81 said:
I didn't say they didn't know what they were talking about. I'm saying that this is marketing bullshit, just like the wars that were fought over the number of bits a console was.
Anything where a developer is being interviewed for a website is marketing to some extent. He's trying to market his games and ND to a public who aren't developers. He's trying to get across the point that they have a lot more to get out of the system in an easy to understand way. Sure, it was unfortunate for him to mention percentages...but his point is clear.
 
"We’re always trading war-stories with Insomniac and Evolution and Sucker Punch. We’re just one block away from Sony Santa Monica – the guys who made God Of War – and we get our designers together with theirs for formal lunches, and just talk about tools, design approaches and so on. So there’s this town square feeling of everybody trading stories about our best practices, and I think it makes everybody stronger and smarter.”

Awesome. I love to see communication gone right. It's one of the reasons Nintendo's internal developments go so smoothly.
 

Sean*O

Member
I get so tired of these same old BS PR lines about 'untapped potential'

Can't they come up with anything new?
 

deepbrown

Member
Madman said:
If you ask some in this thread, anything besides a percentage.

It really doesn't matter and I can't believe that you guys have argued about this long. I mean really, who gives a shit that he used a percentage value for power used in some interview? You guys will argue about anything. :lol
Note: Never mention percentage. I think Rich Diamant of Naughty Dog said it best:

Are you sick of people asking how much PS3 power you are using?

Richard: I guess I don’t really mind when they ask. I’m just not sure why people think it’s so important. I guess the power question is a little more obvious. If they see something great and find out it’s only using a fraction of the power, then our hope for the future looks promising.

http://www.ripten.com/2008/01/21/ri...rt-style-water-and-the-advantages-of-blu-ray/
 
Slavik81 said:
I didn't say they didn't know what they were talking about. I'm saying that this is marketing bullshit, just like the wars that were fought over the number of bits a console was.

Oh, don't misunderstand, I'm not directing specifically at you, but at the question you ask, the pure reason we get full threads on it is always really the same heated argument and they always come off as if the devs don't know what they're talking about.
 

J-Rzez

Member
Everyone can take their jabs at a company that developed one of, if not prettiest console game so far this gen. "haha, xx%, shut up". Yeah. Too bad Uncharted and their prior works put up more than enough for them. Then again, it's the same people making morons of themselves in here.

Funny thing is, so far it only looks like other internal Sony devs are going to be able to out do each other for best looking console game.
 

kevm3

Member
As spectacular as Uncharted looks, what do you think besides the V-Sync that could be improved, visually speaking? I would prefer a smoother framerate, and whatever water system Resistance 2 is using, I'd like to see that put in there. A dynamic water system is interesting, wherein different things can affect the flow of the water, the ripples, etc. I hope it makes into Uncharted 2. It's hard to think of any real improvements, since the game looks so good already.
 

Elios83

Member
Only one thing matters:

ND please unveil your new game as soon as possible! :D
I really hope it's set in India like a few rumors said although there's also the Atlantis rumor which is also an interesting setting although a bit overused.

About the graphics, you know that with Uncharted 2 ND will deliver a big jump over the original just like they did in the past going from Crash1 to Crash2 and Jak1 to Jak2.
 
kevm3 said:
As spectacular as Uncharted looks, what do you think besides the V-Sync that could be improved, visually speaking? I would prefer a smoother framerate, and whatever water system Resistance 2 is using, I'd like to see that put in there. A dynamic water system is interesting, wherein different things can affect the flow of the water, the ripples, etc. I hope it makes into Uncharted 2. It's hard to think of any real improvements, since the game looks so good already.

Naughty Dog has been pretty forward with the addressing and sharing with technology to improve tools and support across Sony's studio, I can imagine like Marconelly suggested they would have that advanced independent object based level motion blur found out in Killzone 2 to give it all a very CGI movement look. Naughty Dog acknowledged the other Sony teams at the end credits, it was Guerilla that gave them an idea for their shadowing system (which is some of the smoothest I have seen on consoles still).

Other improvements in engine performance would be obvious things like increased enemy counts and the like. Aside from the ones you already listed too, yeah, I can't think of too much at the moment. Maybe they could get an engine the emulates a sub-surface scattering effectg for lighting and skin highlights.
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
kevm3 said:
As spectacular as Uncharted looks, what do you think besides the V-Sync that could be improved, visually speaking? I would prefer a smoother framerate, and whatever water system Resistance 2 is using, I'd like to see that put in there. A dynamic water system is interesting, wherein different things can affect the flow of the water, the ripples, etc. I hope it makes into Uncharted 2. It's hard to think of any real improvements, since the game looks so good already.

- V-Sync
- Rock solid 30fps
- Killzone 2 level motion blur
- More physics involved in environment interaction
- Better interaction between character animations and environment (no floating)

That's all I need tech wise.
 

Doubledex

Banned
KongRudi said:
Carmack also said that Naughty Dog were probably the guys wich knew most about multi-threading, and such when they only worked on PS2. :-/
It was after Jak 3 development. They started working on the PS3 tech. So they knew what they were doing and Naughty Dog knows more (and doing it better) about multi-proc. than ID/Carmack (he/Carmack even said it)
[QUOTE='[Nintex]"We're only using 30% of it's power", if that's true than Sony needs to get some better coders to work on better engines and fast. [/QUOTE]
+
Draft said:
How is it good? Why can they only use 30%? Doesn't that seem awfully low to you? Like, less than a third of the systems resources are available? The rest are locked away by an incredibly complex architecture that even the greatest coders in the business can't understand?
So look at the first PSOne games and 3 or 4 years later... they had ~ nearly 80% "more power" in their games
Look at the PS2. Watch a game like Orphen... 3 or 4 years later we had Jak 2 and PRIMAL. Nearly 60% more power (bump) (I love my "%")
So, the PSOne and the PS2 were SO DAMN difficult to program for, right!? RIGHT?
The PSONE was a beast... too hard to program for! RIGHT? All the developers sucked ass, because the could not use ALL the power of the PSONE and PS2.
So, with your logic..... every damn developer on the planet sucked (and still suck) RIGHT??
zoukka said:
And all Killzone footage is hot?
Um... yes??
 

deepbrown

Member
TTP said:
- V-Sync
- Rock solid 30fps
- Killzone 2 level motion blur
- More physics involved in environment interaction
- Better interaction between character animations and environment (no floating)

That's all I need tech wise.
Getting rid of the floating was on their list of things to fix, but they ran out of time (and they didn't want to spoil the responsiveness) and unless they add a whole load of amazing tech (which I do hope) there's a 99% chance of a locked framerate.

I'd like to add; Better Splash and Explosion effects, and interactive glass that breaks (as good as Resistance's :D )

ps. Doubledex speaks the truth. We should learn from past experience...some seem to be conveniently forgetting the PS1 and PS2.
 
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