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[Phantast2k]

Yeah, I'm from the south. I haven't spend that much time in the Ruhrgebiet, so I probably missed that. Still, I think it's a lot different from maybe parts of Paris or London.

But it's pretty similar. Google (or search on youtube) for Dortmund Nordstadt or Duisburg Marxloh (among others) in Ruhrgebiet and then Berlin Neuköln and parts of Hamburg.
Muezzin-Calls all over the place, high percentage of conceived women, barely anything is written in German except for street signs. Big franchise stores flee the area (Drogeriemärkte, Supermärkte) - only discount stores survive. And the only business besides that are: döner, betting shops, culture cafes, vegetable markets.
Doesn't really feel like Germany anymore. Germans/educated immigrants gtfo of there -> ghettos

 

[fabricated backlash]

I know it's unfair to judge something in hindsight, investigations will hopefully tell us whether (or how much) the police screwed up. Still being able to shoot nine people in (rather) public space and getting away with it is something we'll have to look into (not that we really will though). Wasn't the police even looking for them (albeit for a different crime) ?

Quite frankly given all the things in the past couple of years I simply doubt there'll be any real consequences. In a few weeks or months everything will be forgotten and it'll be business as usual, maybe they'll fire some scapegoat and that's it.

Germany in particular showcases a sort of delusion about the state of de nazification of their population. They like to point the finger at Austria and it's batshit insane FPÖ and BZÖ right wing hate mongers, but at the same time act like they've concluded their process of de-nazification long ago.

That's why I expect this event to be treated like a freak accident, rather than the clear proof of an unsettling rise of far right extremism.

But it's pretty similar. Google (or search on youtube) for Dortmund Nordstadt or Duisburg Marxloh (among others) in Ruhrgebiet and then Berlin Neuköln and parts of Hamburg.
Muezzin-Calls all over the place, high percentage of conceived women, barely anything is written in German except for street signs. Big franchise stores flee the area (Drogeriemärkte, Supermärkte) - only discount stores survive. And the only business besides that are: döner, betting shops, culture cafes, vegetable markets.
Doesn't really feel like Germany anymore. Germans/educated immigrants gtfo of there -> ghettos

Failed imigration is also a problem that was completely ignored by politics in germany for far too long. It's doubtfull that politicians that had no idea that immigration could pose a potential problem, would now be able to come up with a coherent immigration reform.

The blame is really on both sides. The ghetto buildup that you describe is a typical phenomenon of a failed immigration and integration policy. It's similar to what happened in the 20th century, when millions of rural europeans migrated into ghettos to get work in a city. The key difference now being that the migrants have a culture that is connotated as being incompatible with "european values".

Also, most of the franchise stores that are getting out of those zones aren't german to begin with. Or are you decrying the loss of american styled boutiques and KFC as a sign of a lost german identity?

 

[Phantast2k]

Germany in particular showcases a sort of delusion about the state of de nazification of their population. They like to point the finger at Austria and it's batshit insane FPÖ and BZÖ right wing hate mongers, but at the same time act like they've concluded their process of de-nazification long ago.

That's why I expect this event to be treated like a freak accident, rather than the clear proof of an unsettling rise of far right extremism.

It has nothing to do with post-WW2 denazification and much more with the leftist terrorist group RAF, which was the center of attention for decades while there was barely any serious organized terrorism from the right.

/edit1

Also, most of the franchise stores that are getting out of those zones aren't german to begin with. Or are you decrying the loss of american styled boutiques and KFC as a sign of a lost german identity?

Franchise doesn't necessarily mean fast food..
I meant supermarkets, "Drogerien", clothing stores (say Rewe, Edeka, dm, Rossmann, Karstadt and so forth). Only some odd, low level "discount" crap remains Lidl, Penny, kik, etc.

/edit2

The blame is really on both sides. The ghetto buildup that you describe is a typical phenomenon of a failed immigration and integration policy. It's similar to what happened in the 20th century, when millions of rural europeans migrated into ghettos to get work in a city. The key difference now being that the migrants have a culture that is connotated as being incompatible with "european values".

Yeah and it's easy to argue for those "european values" because they are more in line with basic human rights.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Yeah and it's easy to argue for those "european values" because they are more in line with basic human rights.

In theory, certainly not in any real world example. Human rights in Europe were never more than a buzz word that only applies to european ethnicities. Who cares about human rights when there are mass deportations of Roma and Sinti. Those aren't worth of our human rights at all. Sure you get a short media blitz about evil evil Sarkozy, and then it's back to fear mongering about turkish imigrants again.
Who cares that domestic abuse is as widespread among european ethnicities as it is today? As long as those women being abused don't wear a head scarf, it's never seen as a bullet point for the cultural inferiority of European Values.

If even european minorities have to fight daily to have those basic human rights granted to them even in democratic states, then it's not hard to imagine that immigrants from non european ethnicities or to be more precise, Muslims in general, won't have a better experience with our oh so civilized, and human rights dominated european values.

Germany as you said has a real problem that for the longest period of time, the focus of most politicians and criminologists was on left wing terror but the truth that many in Germany simply ignored the lingering far right forces might come to bite them in the ass now. Especially when everywhere else in Europe those far right populists gain more and more traction.

Still one of the best satirical examples on how Germany dealt with neo nazi extremists in the past:

 

[Dali]

You're probably right. I mostly wanted to point out that the media is once again jumping to conclusions a lot, and the case is actually far more complex than it looks - and not just the possible involvement of the Verfassungsschutz. The more obvious something seems, the more likely it is to be wrong.

Nobody really understands why the two would have committed suicide for example, or why the woman blew up the house and handed herself over. By blowing up the house, she didn't destroy any evidence, but she drew a lot of attention. Not to mention she wasn't even wanted at this point. Makes no sense at all.


@ ElTopo:

Yes, a political motivation was considered at first. But after it happened again and again, and no terrorist group claimed it, organized crime simply seemed more and more likely.

Wait... what?

 

[Enosh]

In theory, certainly not in any real world example. Human rights in Europe were never more than a buzz word that only applies to european ethnicities.

thanks for the laugh

Who cares about human rights when there are mass deportations of Roma and Sinti

being in a country that isn't yours isn't a human right

 

[Insane Metal]

Good news.

 

[Timedog]

There's actually far more to it, and even though they were nazis, it's by no means certain the murders had any political or racist motivation. Can't say much more, though.

I...um...uhh... ... ...wat.

edit: Oh, nvm, you're a high up government official with classified information about da mrdrz.

 

[akira28]

thanks for the laugh

being in a country that isn't yours isn't a human right

Human rights follow you no matter the country you're in, weirdo. You're really on a roll so far.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Yeah he mentioned him and that's it. There is no 'international' link between Wilders and Brevik.

I was discussing the atmosphere created and nurtured by the actions and comments of politicians. The Brevik example was to show that a politician's words, especially those of a high profile one like Wilders, resonate much farther than state borders. I didn't say they went for a cup of tea together.

 

[klausbert]

Shit's crazy, they killed people in places i really often frequent. Luckily there arent that much Nazis here in my town, but i still had minor annoyances with them while i was walking around with my vietnamese girlfriend. Nothing serious though, just some drunk, unemployed, old, frustrated and dumb nazi shitheads rambling. Ignoring them usually solves the problem.

 

[Broder Salsa]

This is some crazy shit.

With all due respect, but our police makes the cops from Dexter look like geniuses.

Problem is that anyone that can count to 3 makes the cops in dexter look like geniuses.

 

[KHarvey16]

I thought banning this kind of speech and making these groups illegal made it easy to catch these people and prevent these kinds of crimes.

Weird!

 

[Phantast2k]

Uwe Böhnhardt, Uwe Mundlos & Beate Zschäpe.

Excerpts from their confession(?) dvd: http://spon.de/ve2eP (German)

..no time to translate atm.

 

[Chuckie]

Problem is that anyone that can count to 3 makes the cops in dexter look like geniuses.

...what?

 

[Parallax]

...what?

I'm pretty sure he means if you can count to 3, you are a genius compared to the cops in dexter.....

 

[Kabouter]

Another update:

Police investigating a German neo-Nazi terrorist group have discovered a hitlist of 88 possible targets, including two prominent members of the Bundestag and representatives of Turkish and Islamic groups.

Investigators have been trying to establish whether the list included people the group was actively plotting to kill, or was simply a list of high-profile political opponents.

Two of those apparently targeted are senior politicians from Munich: the Green MP Jerzy Montag and the Christian Social Union MP Hans-Peter Uhl. Both said they were deeply shocked by the revelation.

According to Spiegel Online, investigators discovered the list during inquiries into the activities of the so-called National Socialist Underground (NSU), which is suspected in a string of terror attacks in Cologne and Düsseldorf from 2000-2004. The number 88 is significant, corresponding in the alphabet to HH, or Heil Hitler.

The neo-Nazi cell had gathered the names and addresses in 2005, German police said.

More here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/16/german-neo-nazi-terror-hitlist

 

[LazyLoki]

@ Phantast2k:

Neither. But if you follow the case in the media, like a certain recent interview in Focus, my username might seem familiar.

Son?

Edit: Ah, I see. Didn't read the whole thread.

 

[noah111]

Lesson of this thread: GAF IS EVERYWHERE.

 

[Kabouter]

German justice department is apparently saying the NSU might have between 150 and 180 members, making it much larger than previously thought.

There's also this:

According to research by Der Tagesspiegel and Die Zeit last year, the number of deaths caused by far-right violence has been vastly underreported. The two newspapers estimated there were nearly 150 killings by right-wing extremists between 1990 and 2010, far above the official count of 47.