Support NeoGAF

[ClearData]

People are just fighting over semantics at this point, trying to define what a 'generation' is when things are clearly evolving outside of that terminology. His comments can basically be boiled down to 'the PS4 Pro is a smaller iteration since it's basically the same architecture as before with a boost to GPU, while the Scorpio is a much bigger iteration since nearly everything about it's architecture has been changed (ie. 50% more ram, different GPU, no esram, presumably different CPU, etc)'.

This whole definition of 'generation' is a fool's argument. When Scorpio 2 is revealed 4 years from now and it's the same story (big boost but iterative in that it is forwards/backwards compatible) will we still be arguing about what a generation means? How far behind is Nintendo in all this if that is still the framework we are using?

It's not a fools' argument to consumers that are going to want to understand what it is they are buying and why. Even Sony botched this with the Pro, and Microsoft is not off to a great start either with marketing.

Is the Scorpio a PC like platform with spec bumps every few years? Fine, but a lot of console owners are more accustomed to more clearly defined upgrade cycles. When does the average consumer buy the new box and how long will Xbox game run on older models when Scorpio 2 rolls around? How long does "no one gets left behind" apply? It gives consoles a PC like paradigm that some might not be comfortable with. A lot of people like the simplicity. If E3 comes and Microsoft messes up marketing again then things might get messy. Marketing does matter. Confusion helped torpedo the Wii U.

 

[Norse]

I wonder what the expectations are for Ms and Sony on these "pro" models. Do they hope they sell more than the og models right away or do they expect a gradual growth that eventually makes the og models obsolete every 4 yrs?

Scorpio 2017 w/ xbone S
Scorpio II 2021 w/ Scorpio
Scorpio III 2025 w/ Scorpio II

And so on.......

Is this the plan?

 

[Liabe Brave]

Just off the top of my head:

-currently we have some PS4 titles where there are big upgrades, but also some instances where things have faltered or aren't up to expectation.. blown out of proportion for sure, but I've seen plenty of posters angrily commenting about performance not being to their expectations

People's expectations are variable and can be unrealistic, so they're a very poor metric for differentiation. Pro provides significant upgrades for many games. That some games utilize the hardware less fully should be no surprise. It has always been thus, for every machine, and will be for Scorpio too.

-they added a lot more RAM.. Sony added 512MB that isn't devoted to games at all (did allocated change?), MS is adding 4GB more and if 4k is our target, having the RAM for those textures seems like a no-brainer.

The Pro has an extra 1GB of RAM, and 512MB extra is allocated to games.

 

[Theorry]

I wonder what the expectations are for Ms and Sony on these "pro" models. Do they hope they sell more than the og models right away or do they expect a gradual growth that eventually makes the og models obsolete every 4 yrs?

Scorpio 2017 w/ xbone S
Scorpio II 2021 w/ Scorpio
Scorpio III 2025 w/ Scorpio II

And so on.......

Is this the plan?

For MS is probably is. And i like it.

 

[flkraven]

I wonder what the expectations are for Ms and Sony on these "pro" models. Do they hope they sell more than the og models right away or do they expect a gradual growth that eventually makes the og models obsolete every 4 yrs?

Scorpio 2017 w/ xbone S
Scorpio II 2021 w/ Scorpio
Scorpio III 2025 w/ Scorpio II

And so on.......

Is this the plan?

My guess is somewhere between 2017 and 2021 there will be a Scorpio S, so more like

Scorpio 2017 w/ Xbox One S
Scorpio S 2019 w/ Scorpio (and we start seeing some exclusive features in Scorpio games over Xbox One S, or even exclusive games)
Scorpio 2 2021 w/ Scorpio S

etc

 

[Outrun]

It's not a fools' argument to consumers that are going to want to understand what it is they are buying and why. Even Sony botched this with the Pro, and Microsoft is not off to a great start either with marketing.

Is the Scorpio a PC like platform with spec bumps every few years? Fine, but a lot of console owners are more accustomed to more clearly defined upgrade cycles. When does the average consumer buy the new box and how long will Xbox game run on older models when Scorpio 2 rolls around? How long does "no one gets left behind" apply? It gives consoles a PC like paradigm that some might not be comfortable with. A lot of people like the simplicity. If E3 comes and Microsoft messes up marketing again then things might get messy. Marketing does matter. Confusion helped torpedo the Wii U.

There is little Scorpio marketing though...

Just a metric shit ton of conjecture.

 

[leeh]

Just going to repost this here from the other thread:

Jez‏ @JezCorden
My "99% sure" comes from language used by MS/AMD statements we got at CES/language on internal docs and other sources. Could still be wrong

Between this, this thread and what Stinkles said, I don't believe there's must left in that white paper which is still relevant.

 

[wapplew]

It's not a fools' argument to consumers that are going to want to understand what it is they are buying and why. Even Sony botched this with the Pro, and Microsoft is not off to a great start either with marketing.

Is the Scorpio a PC like platform with spec bumps every few years? Fine, but a lot of console owners are more accustomed to more clearly defined upgrade cycles. When does the average consumer buy the new box and how long will Xbox game run on older models when Scorpio 2 rolls around? How long does "no one gets left behind" apply? It gives consoles a PC like paradigm that some might not be comfortable with. A lot of people like the simplicity. If E3 comes and Microsoft messes up marketing again then things might get messy. Marketing does matter. Confusion helped torpedo the Wii U.

Oh MS know what they're doing. They want you to associate "next gen" with Scorpio.
Mid gen refresh or iterations doesn't sound sexy. They don't want you to think PC paradigm too, that also doesn't sound sexy.
I'm sure they'll come up with some new term or marketing buzz word to call it. Maybe next generation member of Xbox family or something more fancy.
I though "beyond generation" tag line was brilliant, Aaron Greenberg is really good at this.

 

[aygomyownroad]

As I said in the Digital Foundry thread I am going to wait for the reveal.

It makes no sense for then to go after the PS4pro, they are so far behind they need to just hit reset and try again, get a couple of years head start and try and force Sony's hand.

If they make in essence an Xbox One Pro then its doomed as not many new people are going to be swayed by it, they need to focus on new franchises and games and power

 

[MilkyJoe]

As I said in the Digital Foundry thread I am going to wait for the reveal.

It makes no sense for then to go after the PS4pro, they are so far behind they need to just hit reset and try again, get a couple of years head start and try and force Sony's hand.

If they make in essence an Xbox One Pro then its doomed as not many new people are going to be swayed by it, they need to focus on new franchises and games and power

Have you been living under a rock?

 

[Metfanant]

Ah true. I can see that as a really good reason for them getting the console out now.
Maybe Sony and MS were both planning on mid gen consoles, but Sony had a reason to get it out now due to VR limitations, but maybe MS was able to wait, like you said. I'd imagine they'd want as much power as they can get for a good experience with the Rift.


I agree they provided a good upgrade for $400. If Sony thought they needed to get it out now, then that's fine imo.
It's only been 3 years though, and I wouldn't blame people for wondering how it would've turned out if the Pro released at the end of this year or whenever Zen released, due to some of the limitations it's facing right now. As an upgraded console, I think some would've been fine with another release date if it meant a new cpu or better performance/graphics.

Hell, if Scorpio doesn't have a new cpu (a man can dream &#128556 I'll be pondering some of this.

I absolutely agree with you, and I can accept the argument that they should have waited, or even not bothered at all with a mod gen refresh...But to say what we got was half assed just doesn't fly with me for the reasons I've stated multiple times...

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

Just going to repost this here from the other thread:

Between this, this thread and what Stinkles said, I don't believe there's must left in that white paper which is still relevant.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Stinkles didn't say anything credible though

 

[nekkid]

Beefy

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

As I said in the Digital Foundry thread I am going to wait for the reveal.

It makes no sense for then to go after the PS4pro, they are so far behind they need to just hit reset and try again, get a couple of years head start and try and force Sony's hand.

If they make in essence an Xbox One Pro then its doomed as not many new people are going to be swayed by it, they need to focus on new franchises and games and power

Well then MS really needs to get their messaging straight because almost everything they've said so far is pointing towards an xbox one pro.

 

[Okami Haundo]

I wonder what the expectations are for Ms and Sony on these "pro" models. Do they hope they sell more than the og models right away or do they expect a gradual growth that eventually makes the og models obsolete every 4 yrs?

Scorpio 2017 w/ xbone S
Scorpio II 2021 w/ Scorpio
Scorpio III 2025 w/ Scorpio II

And so on.......

Is this the plan?

I'm placing my bets firmly on the gradual growth idea. It allows them to have both a "cheaper" model and the "high end" model on the market at the same time and thus appeal to a wider audience. I'd map it out exactly the way you already did.

As for their plan, we're honestly just guessing based on things they've said thus far. Most signs seem to logically point towards your speculation above, but time will tell. I'm honestly all for the iterative approach. I buy a new phone every single year just for marginal improvements, so I'd gladly buy a new console every 3 to 4.

 

[Quasar]

Then why do people think it's still using the same crappy CPU cores rather than zen?

 

[Stinkles]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

Stinkles didn't say anything at all though

ftfy

 

[Outrun]

ftfy

Oh lawd.

I am just glad you promised Halo 6 in 2017 and with 4 player split screen coop/MP

 

[Samurai G0SU]

ftfy

Mainly because it did not detail the type of cut the beef was.

 

[Darklor01]

Y'know, all of this stuff seems to backwards in logic to me. You can put out all the amazing hardware you want, if there aren't games for it to play, it's near useless.

Games currently listed under development which include release on Xbox One:
Outlast 2
Southpark: The Fractured
Sonic Mania
Agents of Mayhem
Vampyr
Injustice 2
Cyberpunk 2077
De-formers
Earth No More
ELEX
H1Z1: King of the Kill
Kingdom Hearts III
Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom
Pit People
Red Ash: The Indelible Legend
Space Engineers
Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap (remake)
Red Dead Redemption 2


Exclusive to Xbox One:
Phantom Dust
Halo Wars 2
Sea of Thieves
Crackdown 3

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch. I'm not worried about that for the point I'm trying to make.

I guess it remains to be seen what games of these will include enhanced play on Scorpio and if there will actually be Scorpio only exclusives. Everything, to me, comes down to the games. Release all the hardware you want otherwise. Loyalists with the money will likely upgrade, those with PS4 Pro and/or a solid PC (possibly upgrading at the time) may wait. Edit: Maybe they will announce many more games soon?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Y'know, all of this stuff seems to backwards in logic to me. You can put out all the amazing hardware you want, if there aren't games for it to play, it's near useless.

Games currently listed under development which include release on Xbox One:
Outlast 2
Southpark: The Fractured
Sonic Mania
Agents of Mayhem
Vampyr
Injustice 2
Cyberpunk 2077
De-formers
Earth No More
ELEX
H1Z1: King of the Kill
Kingdom Hearts III
Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom
Pit People
Red Ash: The Indelible Legend
Space Engineers
Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap (remake)
Red Dead Redemption 2


Exclusive to Xbox One:
Phantom Dust
Halo Wars 2
Sea of Thieves
Crackdown 3

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch. I'm not worried about that for the point I'm trying to make.

I guess it remains to be seen what games of these will include enhanced play on Scorpio and if there will actually be Scorpio only exclusives. Everything, to me, comes down to the games. Release all the hardware you want otherwise. Loyalists with the money will likely upgrade, those with PS4 Pro and/or a solid PC (possibly upgrading at the time) may wait. Edit: Maybe they will announce many more games soon?

You are missing lots

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/coming-soon/xboxone/date

http://m.uk.ign.com/games/upcoming/xbox-one?filter=latest

Which kind of pisses on your cornflakes.

 

[Rembrandt]

What are we arguing about now?

 

[Samurai G0SU]

What are we arguing about now?

That bagels are better than toast.

 

[MilkyJoe]

What are we arguing about now?

The xbox has no games defense.

 

[Caayn]

What are we arguing about now?

Why a six year old has a beard. Why THomas/Stinkles don't say anything, they must be hiding something, quick call the FBI, CIA, NSA, my mom. What are games? Why am I posting?

 

[Outrun]

That bagels are better than toast.

No they're not.

I am offended.

Massively so.

 

[Kyrios]

No they're not.

I am offended.

Massively so.

...what about English muffins?

 

[Sizzel]

X1 and Scorpio share libraries Scorpio is the turbo version and may have exclusive features in games. The alleged specs shame current gen consoles and Pspro, but MS has very weak exclusives overall


Scorpio II shares libraries with Scorpio and X1

Scorpio III shares libraries with II I and X1 and through the magic of BC they all play 360 games.

If these are structured like PCs you can just pop the game in any system and it will adjust for the power available.. up or down. That is my hope. Eventually hardware will be phased out naturally because it can't run AAA at anything approaching playable I have a hard time believe this amount of freedom will be gien to console gamers, but dare to dream you guys will get a little unshackled and not have to rebuy your librariesever gen for every remaster

I really hope this is all true and PS follow suit because I play some PS exclusives and I want more power.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

No they're not.

I am offended.

Massively so.

Well HRMPH! What kind of Toast do you eat? Huh!? Huh? Potato Bread Toast with cinnamon butter on it?! ewwwwwww!

Can't even put Strawberry Cream Cheese on it to save it's disgusting taste!

Hah! #4theBreakfastEaters

 

[Outrun]

...what about English muffins?

Well HRMPH! What kind of Toast do you eat? Huh!? Huh? Potato Bread Toast with cinnamon butter on it?! ewwwwwww!

Can't even put Strawberry Cream Cheese on it to save it's disgusting taste!

Hah! #4theBreakfastEaters

Crumpets 4life

 

[Tallshortman]

Has Mahler posted again or has he gone radio silent after getting cited on multiple sites?

 

[Papacheeks]

That bagels are better than toast.

Depends on the bagel of course.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Has Mahler posted again or has he gone radio silent after getting cited on multiple sites?

It has been reported he was last seen with this man below;

Spoiler

Hours later we finally caught up with this man and he had this reaction....

Spoiler

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

ftfy

Oh, no you don't. You're not getting off that easily.

#FrankieLied #ChainStinkles #HeCan'tKeepGettingAwayWithIt #ThereIsNoBeef

Stinkles, you know what you have to do.

 

[dcb2821]

I think the console "generations" that we were used to are coming to an end. Its going to be closer to the PC model where you can upgrade every 4-5 years to get more power and better specs but all your older games still play.

 

[jimboton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of pure processing power, isn't the move from Xbox 360 to Xbox One not also mostly in the GPU? (and RAM of course, and admittedly more than 5x).

The 360 had a 3 core powerpc cpu clocked at 3 ish ghz, I'm not sure how it compares to the One's Jaguar, but I doubt it's of similar power given that 360 games can be well emulated in the One. For a system to emulate another system with a CPU that has a different architecture it usually needs to be significantly more powerful.

 

[Peterc]

If it gets ps4 games it's current gen.
If it get's next gen games == xbox two, than it's next gen.

But next gen, which dev would be crazy to spend money on that, while current gen still sell, maybe not great but still cheap compared with next gen

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

ftfy

so its not beefier than ?

Scorpio is confirmed DOA

 

[Darklor01]

You are missing lots

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/coming-soon/xboxone/date

http://m.uk.ign.com/games/upcoming/xbox-one?filter=latest

Which kind of pisses on your cornflakes.

OK, but we don't know how many of those will take advantage of the new hardware if at all, and if there are any games to be exclusive to the Scorpio. So, my point kind of still holds true. If there aren't games which are announced to take advantage of Scorpio hardware, it's hard to convince consumers to shell out for it. Especially if they have a PS4 Pro, Xbox One S, or capable PC at the time of release.
Of course, some loyalists definitely will, and some people cuz... shiny hardware.

 

[ResoRai]

I absolutely agree with you, and I can accept the argument that they should have waited, or even not bothered at all with a mod gen refresh...But to say what we got was half assed just doesn't fly with me for the reasons I've stated multiple times...

I agree. The only way I could see the point is in reference to the timeframe, but like you said they can't just wait and wait. And he may not have meant that anyways.

OK, but we don't know how many of those will take advantage of the new hardware if at all, and if there are any games to be exclusive to the Scorpio. So, my point kind of still holds true. If there aren't games which are announced to take advantage of Scorpio hardware, it's hard to convince consumers to shell out for it. Especially if they have a PS4 Pro, Xbox One S, or capable PC at the time of release.
Of course, some loyalists definitely will, and some people cuz... shiny hardware.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but games won't necessarily require patches right? I know Halo 5 for example was ready from the get go.

 

[AmyS]

A truly next generation console in late 2017 would look something like:

CPU: 8 Zen based cores, 2.5+ GHz (relatively low clocked to keep cooler)
GPU: 8-10 TFlops
RAM: 16 GB HBM2

Scorpio is not going to seem like a generational leap beyond 2013 Xbox One, even if games were developed solely to target the 6TF GPU and expected 12GB RAM and expected highly clocked Jaguar --
But games that run on Scorpio are not going to be developed specifically to target just Scorpio anyway, since games still have to run on original Xbone hardware.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

OK, but we don't know how many of those will take advantage of the new hardware if at all, and if there are any games to be exclusive to the Scorpio. So, my point kind of still holds true. If there aren't games which are announced to take advantage of Scorpio hardware, it's hard to convince consumers to shell out for it. Especially if they have a PS4 Pro, Xbox One S, or capable PC at the time of release.
Of course, some loyalists definitely will, and some people cuz... shiny hardware.

... sigh ....

People will buy a scorpio for the same damn reasons why people bought a ps4 pro. Get over your burnt toast self.

Or are we all peter griffins and say "oo.piece of candy nom nom nom, oo piece of candy, oo piece of candy " ?

 

[spannicus]

... sigh ....

People will buy a scorpio for the same damn reasons why people bought a ps4 pro. Get over your burnt toast self.

Or are we all peter griffins and say "oo.piece of candy nom nom nom, oo piece of candy, oo piece of candy " ?

Lol. You already know. If majority of games run better on scorpio thats all its gonna take. Digital Foundry's videos will be interesting.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

Lol. You already know. If majority of games run better on scorpio thats all its gonna take. Digital Foundry's videos will be interesting.

Right. Anyone who plays games. Not some type of generalization like we are some type of thing that is inferior. Sick of that shit.

 

[nekkid]

It has been reported he was last seen with this man below;

Spoiler

Hours later we finally caught up with this man and he had this reaction....

Spoiler

The real beef.

 

[Darkstorne]

A truly next generation console in late 2017 would look something like:

CPU: 8 Zen based cores, 2.5+ GHz (relatively low clocked to keep cooler)
GPU: 8-10 TFlops
RAM: 16 GB HBM2

Scorpio is not going to seem like a generational leap beyond 2013 Xbox One, even if games were developed solely to target the 6TF GPU and expected 12GB RAM and expected highly clocked Jaguar --
But games that run on Scorpio are not going to be developed specifically to target just Scorpio anyway, since games still have to run on original Xbone hardware.

No console, even next-gen only (no backwards compatibility with Xbone) would have those specs if it was releasing this year. Consoles are never bleeding edge with tech thanks to the years of R&D, the costs involved, and the dev time for launch games to be ready and optimised, so Zen is out of the question and always has been.

I know a lot of people want Scorpio to be a "beast" but you have to remember it's always going to be a beast by console standards. By PC standards it'll be using dated hardware on the day it's fully revealed, let alone the day it launches. It'll still be the most powerful console available, so don't worry about it.

 

[SOR5]

Where are all these "please don't be excited" posts coming from?

New meme?

 

[TBiddy]

A truly next generation console in late 2017 would look something like:

CPU: 8 Zen based cores, 2.5+ GHz (relatively low clocked to keep cooler)
GPU: 8-10 TFlops
RAM: 16 GB HBM2

Sure... if you'd want to pay $1200 for it.

 

[bounchfx]

I wonder what the expectations are for Ms and Sony on these "pro" models. Do they hope they sell more than the og models right away or do they expect a gradual growth that eventually makes the og models obsolete every 4 yrs?

Scorpio 2017 w/ xbone S
Scorpio II 2021 w/ Scorpio
Scorpio III 2025 w/ Scorpio II

And so on.......

Is this the plan?

personally I think this will be the last xbox unless it can hit or surpass their sales expectations. depends how much they spent on getting this bad boy out to market.

 

[c0de]

A truly next generation console in late 2017 would look something like:

CPU: 8 Zen based cores, 2.5+ GHz (relatively low clocked to keep cooler)
GPU: 8-10 TFlops
RAM: 16 GB HBM2

Scorpio is not going to seem like a generational leap beyond 2013 Xbox One, even if games were developed solely to target the 6TF GPU and expected 12GB RAM and expected highly clocked Jaguar --
But games that run on Scorpio are not going to be developed specifically to target just Scorpio anyway, since games still have to run on original Xbone hardware.

The thing is that by this definition, no console will ever bee next gen console.
Every new console will offer what pc will offer with a price tag around $400.