Support NeoGAF

[The Fatal Englishman]

Then it's worth it for me, that is to say if I visit down under

We are absurdly obsessed with coffee in Melbourne and we have an incredibly high density of high quality cafes and restaurants.

Why you would bother going to a suburb like Brunswick specifically to purchase a 5-dollar latte is beyond me. Especially when the cafe itself is simply playing to its local crowd to stand out from the competition.

 

[Bollocks]

"voluntary"

who the fuck would volunteer to pay more money lmao. just go there with a lady friend and have her pay the tab instead, easy!

or just say that you identify as a woman. checkmate

 

[Mohonky]

So has anyone supporting this actually addressed the whole race thing yet or

No, most people will only care about causes that have tangible results about issues that affect them directly.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

or just say that you identify as a woman. checkmate

 

[Dead Man]

Unions and collective bargaining for wages instead of individual bargaining would do more to solve the wage gap i reckon. But if this highlights it for people who hadn't thought of it then go hard.

 

[iPaul93]

Someone needs to tell them that the wage gap isn't real.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Discrimination is not protected by the free market. At least not in developed countries.

It's not discrimination if it's voluntary lol. Didn't realize people like this are still in GAF.

Of course its illegal.

In the same way as a business may refuse entry or service to anyone they please so long as that refusal isnt on the basis of race, sex, religion etc.

You can charge whatever you want to do, but if they find your basis of service cost is selected based on race, sex etc it most certainly is illegal.

Unless you live in a third world shithole without equality laws of course.

Those asking if its illegal in Australia; very much so.

I know you're Australian and you think it's "alroight" to mock people in lesser developed countries, but it's not. Cut the problematic crap.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

I mean I know it's voluntary but wth

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

I'd rather have free coffee for men

 

[perfectchaos007]

It's not discrimination if it's voluntary lol. Didn't realize people like this are still in GAF.

litmus test:

"This establishment is for white males only. Blacks and females must voluntarily donate an additional 18% of their final bill to a charity supporting white male issues"

Is that not discrimination either?

 

[Nerazar]

It's not discrimination if it's voluntary lol. Didn't realize people like this are still in GAF.

The priority seating is discrimination, though. And I don't know if doing discrimination ironically or for charity is the best way to promote equality. I don't expect many men to go there and I don't think many women will pay the +18% surcharge voluntarily.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

litmus test:

"This establishment is for white males only. Blacks and females must voluntarily donate an additional 18% of their final bill to a charity supporting white male issues"

Is that not discrimination either?

Your reduction of sex discrimination to playground "it's not fair" formal equality is a shame. Women face huge systemic issues that can't be reduced to "but when a man does it". Be better than the MRA's.

The priority seating is discrimination, though. And I don't know if doing discrimination ironically or for charity is the best way to promote equality. I don't expect many men to go there and I don't think many women will pay the +18% surcharge voluntarily.

You buy the coffee, you don't buy the seat. How many clubs have free woman entry, or girls' night specials? Who cares?
I know it's a particularly on-the-nose approach and inelegant 'solution' but I think it's a little overblown to be shouting "misandry!" over this.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Your reduction of sex discrimination to playground "it's not fair" formal equality is a shame. Women face huge systemic issues that can't be reduced to "but when a man does it". Be better than the MRA's.

I'm not talking about what you think is fair, I'm talking about the laws. Anyone can be accused of racial discrimination, and anyone can be accused of sex discrimination.

 

[Westbahnhof]

You buy the coffee, you don't buy the seat. How many clubs have free woman entry, or girls' night specials? Who cares?
I know it's a particularly on-the-nose approach and inelegant 'solution' but I think it's a little overblown to be shouting "misandry!" over this.

An inelegant solution to what?
While I think it's a half-baked idea*, the donations at least serve a purpose and point to a problem.
Gendered priority seating just seems hostile.

*I still don't think low/equal income individuals should be asked for money. Plus the whole unconsidered race aspect.

 

[Greddleok]

I'm going to make my own coffee shop, where women pay more, and there'll be black jack and hookers.

 

[Nerazar]

You buy the coffee, you don't buy the seat. How many clubs have free woman entry, or girls' night specials? Who cares?
I know it's a particularly on-the-nose approach and inelegant 'solution' but I think it's a little overblown to be shouting "misandry!" over this.

For me, self-segregation aka "safe spaces" aka "places by women for women" (as seen in this case) is also not a sustainable solution. Especially with a good cause, you have to be inclusive and also initiate a fair and honest discussion about that issue. Which does not happen here.

It might be overblown to shout "Discrimination!" in this case, but the whole concept of that café is overblown, too. The gender wage gap is a rather interesting topic, because it is not based on facts. And mentally dealing with Trump and his alt-righters, I have to admit that this is one of the things which overlaps between far-left and far-right. You just cannot wish that pay gap to be true, it must not become part of your identity. But this myth is still being promoted by major parties around the globe... And seeing that not so many people from the left look at the actual data, I cannot blame alt-righters to believe that humans have no part in climate change and that there is a thing called "clean coal". Same problem, same consequences in many cases.

Finally, you can ask Rosa Parks about buying the bus ticket and not buying the seat...

 

[Ishan]

err okay are ppl going with its voluntary as in go there or not? Then stop using the word voluntary the establishment has obviously made a rule and i have to follow it if i go there.


Sayings its voluntary is like saying its voluntary you pay a restaurant bill or not.... yes of course its voluntary for me to a place and order stuff ... but this place is forcing me to pay more.


(If this were a this is your total we will let you voluntarily pay normal price but we would like to charge you 18% more with your permission. Then i would respect them more .)

Ridiculous . Way better ways of raising awareness including the one i outlined above. This is what pushes centerists further right. Jesus christ.

 

[The Fatal Englishman]

Your reduction of sex discrimination to playground "it's not fair" formal equality is a shame. Women face huge systemic issues that can't be reduced to "but when a man does it". Be better than the MRA's.



You buy the coffee, you don't buy the seat. How many clubs have free woman entry, or girls' night specials? Who cares?
I know it's a particularly on-the-nose approach and inelegant 'solution' but I think it's a little overblown to be shouting "misandry!" over this.

Regardless of your personal opinions, restricting access to a commercial establishment and adopting price discrimination based on sex does tread a fairly thin line, legally speaking. VCAT can grant exemptions, as in the case of some gay bars in Melbourne a few years back who wanted to restrict female access.

Granted, I doubt anybody gives enough of a shit to pursue it.

 

[Ishan]

Your reduction of sex discrimination to playground "it's not fair" formal equality is a shame. Women face huge systemic issues that can't be reduced to "but when a man does it". Be better than the MRA's.



You buy the coffee, you don't buy the seat. How many clubs have free woman entry, or girls' night specials? Who cares?
I know it's a particularly on-the-nose approach and inelegant 'solution' but I think it's a little overblown to be shouting "misandry!" over this.

right and how many men shout misandry over the club entry thing ... I mean come on. We all get it. There are differences and many things we have to address but this is just a way too strange way of going about it.

 

[T.O.P]

I'm going to say openly: I hope they'll have to close soon

*

They'll see what's up as soon as this publicity stunt dies down

 

[Zaru]

For me, self-segregation aka "safe spaces" aka "places by women for women" (as seen in this case) is also not a sustainable solution. Especially with a good cause, you have to be inclusive and also initiate a fair and honest discussion about that issue. Which does not happen here.

I hope you're excluding women's shelters here.

 

[Westlo]

This will show all those CEOs and upper management.

 

[MWS Natural]

So black males get charged the same as women right?

 

[Laughing Banana]

So if you are an Aborigin what price should you pay? I am guessing free, yeah?

 

[8BitsAtATime]

A bar in New York had a similar concept on some occasions but instead women had a discount

This is like most clubs I’ve been to. Women don’t pay cover and get a huge discount on drinks...now that I think about it’s creepy as fuck.

 

[marcbret87]

It has been said a few times already, but looking at the average earnings is pretty much meaningless as it does not take into account the different career choices, different numbers of hours worked and so on. It does make for a good headline though, and I can see why a business would use it to try to get some attention.

 

[LilWayneSuckz]

This introduces racial aspects that the owners clearly did not anticipate...

 

[Brofist]

Sounds like flat whites won't only be on the menu at that place.

 

[Trickster]

It's voluntary? The wording on the sign makes no mention of it

 

[Ridisc]

I dont mind this, let the market decide, if a cafe wants to compete for foot traffic by charging more to a demographic, then that demographic can decide whether to use it or not, people should be free to tarnish their reputation and feel the consequences for doing so. Its the same thing behind baking cakes for gay people, or excluding certain persons from your establishment, its a private business and if you want to lose customers you are welcome to it.

 

[Vuze]

or just say that you identify as a woman. checkmate

That's quite brilliant actually 😂

 

[Skux]

Fuck me, like the people responsible for the wage gap are even going to be drinking there.

Yeah this is bs. You aren't gonna fix climate change by using tote bags. And you aren't going to fix the pay gap by taxing the middle class.

 

[Chao]

This accomplishes absolutely nothing

 

[Preezy]

I work as a nanny and I charge white hetero families more than I do single parents, families of color, queer parents, etc. I've always thought of it as a solidarity discount, but I guess the flipside of that is charging privileged people more. Which I'm cool with.

What a bigot. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Ridisc]

What a bigot. You should be ashamed of yourself.

While I think their "Solidarity" is self righteous, rediculous and accomplishes nothing towards their goals, if they can earn more money let them, hell it seems like a part of their moral fiber is not "charging more" but not charging what they are capable of earning, if you can get white parents to pay more out of some veiled premise then charge everyone more and go for your market rate, preventing yourself from earning what you potentially can seems like the strangest form of empowerment ive heard, but to each their own.

Maybe it explains part of the wage gap

 

[Pankratous]

I work as a nanny and I charge white hetero families more than I do single parents, families of color, queer parents, etc. I've always thought of it as a solidarity discount, but I guess the flipside of that is charging privileged people more. Which I'm cool with.

What a fucking moronic thing to do.

 

[Chuckie]

This is like most clubs I’ve been to. Women don’t pay cover and get a huge discount on drinks...now that I think about it’s creepy as fuck.

Yeah it has always been like that. Get as many girls as possible in your club and your club becomes attractive.

I remember (years ago) that in Jakarta Wednesday was Ladies Night in a lot of clubs. Free entry and in some cases free drinks for women... which meant clubs full of tipsy girls which in turn meant all the guys wanted to be there too.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Yeah it has always been like that. Get as many girls as possible in your club and your club becomes attractive.

I remember (years ago) that in Jakarta Wednesday was Ladies Night in a lot of clubs. Free entry and in some cases free drinks for women... which meant clubs full of tipsy girls which in turn meant all the guys wanted to be there too.

well it's okay as long as it benefits the guys at the end y'see

 

[H.Protagonist]

So has anyone supporting this actually addressed the whole race thing yet or

About discounts for minorities, etc.? They're not offering discounts based on class, for the homeless, people who are abused, etc. either. I think they're just focusing on the gender pay gap specifically. Those would be worthy causes to highlight as well and do something for, but they're obviously not trying anything particularly deep or comprehensive, so I'm not sure why people are upset that they chose a particular cause that meant something to them (presumably)(Female owner? Female staff?). Do they need to address all the world's ills at the same time for it to be OK?

I'm going to say openly: I hope they'll have to close soon

Cafes are chockablock in Melb, so competition is pretty fierce, but so far they seem to be doing pretty well.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

About discounts for minorities, etc.? They're not offering discounts based on class, for the homeless, people who are abused, etc. either. I think they're just focusing on the gender pay gap specifically. Those would be worthy causes to highlight as well and do something for, but they're obviously not trying anything particularly deep or comprehensive, so I'm not sure why people are upset that they chose a particular cause that meant something to them (presumably)(Female owner? Female staff?). Do they need to address all the world's ills at the same time for it to be OK?




Cafes are chockablock in Melb, so competition is pretty fierce, but so far they seem to be doing pretty well.

it's really just one single cafe in melbourne giving some shout outs to a feminism issue

i am really quite surprised of the amount of hurt it seems to cause in this thread/ forum. even if they are not doing activism in the way you would like them to do social justice activism, i dont think it's a bad cause to raise attention to.

the owner seems to be a woman and my intern said all the baristas and waiting staff are girls and the ambient seems to be really happy.... :> brunswick is a pretty progressive area though, so im not surprised

Spoiler

also happuro~ i will forever ragretz never coffeeing with u when u were still in melbie ; __ ;

 

[Bl@de]

Rule 1: Women have priority seating

Stuff like this is always great.

 

[cantona222]

Interesting. I wonder if this will hurt their business as men will not come. That's a courageous decision by the cafe's management.

 

[H.Protagonist]

it's really just one single cafe in melbourne giving some shout outs to a feminism issue

i am really quite surprised of the amount of hurt it seems to cause in this thread/ forum. even if they are not doing activism in the way you would like them to do social justice activism, i dont think it's a bad cause to raise attention to.

the owner seems to be a woman and my intern said all the baristas and waiting staff are girls and the ambient seems to be really happy.... :> brunswick is a pretty progressive area though, so im not surprised

Spoiler

also happuro~ i will forever ragretz never coffeeing with u when u were still in melbie ; __ ;

Yup, yup. Not that I don't understand the raised eyebrows because it is pretty novel or the argument that it isn't a perfect solution (what is, though?), but the vehemence is disappointing in the fact that it's not surprising at all. If people had other actionable ideas (for any issue), they'd be cool to hear. This doesn't have to be such a negative thread,

And as for Melb, shall we try meet up when I'm there in end of Sept/beginning Oct, then? I'll probably be able to balance several flat whites on my belly by then, but I'm always game for coffee.

 

[Audioboxer]

it's really just one single cafe in melbourne giving some shout outs to a feminism issue

i am really quite surprised of the amount of hurt it seems to cause in this thread/ forum. even if they are not doing activism in the way you would like them to do social justice activism, i dont think it's a bad cause to raise attention to.

the owner seems to be a woman and my intern said all the baristas and waiting staff are girls and the ambient seems to be really happy.... :> brunswick is a pretty progressive area though, so im not surprised

Spoiler

also happuro~ i will forever ragretz never coffeeing with u when u were still in melbie ; __ ;

The thing that riles educated people up is the silly lifting of 18% without furthering proper insight into what the earnings gap is. I gave some thoughts earlier about what can be done to stimulate a society where women truly feel free to choose career paths that are predominantly male. This cafe will largely be hitting everyday customers that are workers in retail, catering, customer service and other bog standard hourly rate jobs. The men will understandably be like "Uh, no one gave me my 18% rise for having a penis versus my coworkers with vaginas?". Meanwhile others still run around saying "Men get paid 18% more than women!" like it's a catch all statement that doesn't require any sort of insight other than to state it like some widespread government/country sexist employment conspiracy.

The flippant hat tipping joke often goes, if women get paid 18% less why don't more employers just hire women? Oh, but there's anti-discrimination laws for that. Is there? Well, maybe have a look at what those discrimination laws say about pay if you accept they exist for hiring. The same companies that have to hire without bias around genitals also have to pay the same hourly or annual wages for workers of the same sex doing the same work/position.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Yup, yup. Not that I don't understand the raised eyebrows because it is pretty novel or the argument that it isn't a perfect solution (what is, though?), but the vehemence is disappointing in the fact that it's not surprising at all. If people had other actionable ideas (for any issue), they'd be cool to hear. This doesn't have to be such a negative thread,

And as for Melb, shall we try meet up when I'm there in end of Sept/beginning Oct, then? I'll probably be able to balance several flat whites on my belly by then, but I'm always game for coffee.

*nodsnods*

it certainly isn't a perfect solution or an all-encompassing answer but yeah, i can appreciate what it's trying to do despite its 'inelegance'

ooooooh * ___ * it's a date <3

@ audioboxer, at least it is getting people to talk about the issue. the gender pay gap needs more attention and dialog.

additionally, there a gif i need to find with ice creams on it...

 

[Oersted]

This thread blew up due to men being triggered by being asked to pay more in one restaurant and not due to men caring about women generally being paid less, didn't it?

 

[Chuckie]

well it's okay as long as it benefits the guys at the end y'see

Well to be fair, some guys complained back then too. "Why can girls get in for free?!!"

Apparently they didn't understand the business model.

Point is: 'Discrimination' based on gender (as in: either discounts or different prices) is something that has been done for years and years. I am not sure about the legality of it, but my guess is that if clubs can do it, a coffee bar could do it too.

Personally I think a better strategy would have been to give ladies a 18% discount because they make 18% less. The whole 'ladies get preferred seating, guys please pay 18% extra or go somewhere else!' strategy seems a bit aggressive.

 

[Audioboxer]

*nodsnods*

it certainly isn't a perfect solution or an all-encompassing answer but yeah, i can appreciate what it's trying to do despite its 'inelegance'

ooooooh * ___ * it's a date <3

@ audioboxer, at least it is getting people to talk about the issue. the gender pay gap needs more attention and dialog.

additionally, there a gif i need to find with ice creams on it...

The best thing for sincere and honest dialog is to first have good education and understanding. All that ever happens off the back of publicity statements like the OP is furious arguing from some saying they don't get 18% more in their wages compared to their colleagues, while others then hit back saying "you obviously just don't care and are part of the problem". How many in depth conversations do you see about the breakdown of the earnings gap, why it's there and very importantly how education from young ages can be improved so that children don't feel they have to go down certain career paths? Then even for adults, or those in University, how again a neutral stance can be taken to all career paths so more women don't feel they cannot go down paths of things such as the hard sciences (good wages) or the tech/computing industries (probably even better wages)? Just look at Silicon Valley or any other tech industry. Nearly exclusively males. Then again it has horrendous problems with sexism, outside of anything to do with wages.

I did say earlier it's not a game of getting 50:50 parity as people aren't chess pieces in some movement. Like it or not differences between the sexes can give an edge to women going into caring industries like nursing, elderly care, counselling and so on. Ask yourself if you have a bias for talking to a women about your problems or a man? Even if you don't, many others do prefer the 'female aura', even men talking about intimate body issues (at a doctors). Anyway, the point there with earnings is unfortunately social care, nursing and anything alike tend to have weak salaries. That's another debate, but I personally feel most aren't paid enough in those lines of work. It all contributes towards an earnings gap, especially as most of these figures come about in part by averaging men and womens salaries. As there isn't a 50/50 split across every working industry, it can lead to averages skewing one way if more men are in higher paying lines of work than women. That is but one of many reasons a gap exists. But to have to go in depth about why the gap exists is time consuming and effort, it's much easier to just put up a sign with a blanket statement and ask your customers to pay more for a drink.

Do note those remarks above should make it clear I put more onus on our educational institutes than random people behind a coffee shop. I'm just saying the gasoline and match arguing that goes on off the back of publicity moves like this are arguably a sign of how bad the general publics understanding of the earnings gap still is. Just search social media and you'll see countless people just repost ranging % figures with no nuance whatsoever like it is simply a case of a man going for a job will automatically get his privilege upgrade of 18% deposited in his account each month.

 

[Laughing Banana]

This thread blew up due to men being triggered by being asked to pay more in one restaurant and not due to men caring about women generally being paid less, didn't it?

Why didn't you read the thread instead of accusing the many men of GAF came here in droves because they are being 'triggered'?

 

[SugarDave]

Good luck to them.

I would imagine this will just lead to men deciding to go elsewhere though. Regardless of their opinion on gender issues and sexism, most people simply aren't in a rush to willingly pay more and to receive a poorer service.