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Next Gen Consoles 60FPS vs. 30FPS

bitbydeath

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A huge amount of those sales are from the original PS3/360 versions. The PC version didn't exist to compete. There wasn't even an announcement for a PC version until much later, to prevent people holding off to get it later on. And when it was finally released it still had to share sales with the PS4/XBOXone versions and it still managed to sell as much as it did.
That’s still tens of millions more people choosing to rebuy the 30FPS edition over the 60FPS PC version.
 

bitbydeath

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You're only looking at the statistics and those most often doesn't show full picture. How many 10s of millions bought gta5 at launch on last gen and then again on pc. The same people counts in console sales.

There's no way in hell I would have voluntarily suffered 30fps if the game launched at the same time or within 6 months from unlocked 60+ fps version.
You and 9.999 million others which vastly pales in comparison.
 

nkarafo

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That’s still tens of millions more people choosing to rebuy the 30FPS edition over the 60FPS PC version.
You think these people had a PC that could play the game at 60fps and still chose the console version?

You really think someone would choose the slower/worse version (assuming they know the differences) if they had the means to play the better one? That's absurd.
 

bitbydeath

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You think these people had a PC that could play the game at 60fps and still chose the console version?

You really think someone would choose the slower/worse version (assuming they know the differences) if they had the means to play the better one? That's absurd.
I’m saying they don’t care enough to bother forking out for the 60FPS one.

30FPS does the job well enough.
 
Jun 26, 2013
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That’s still tens of millions more people choosing to rebuy the 30FPS edition over the 60FPS PC version.
This is an ad hoc fallacy. Assuming your claim to be true, just because more consumers buy the 30fps version over the 60fps version, that doesn't mean they're doing so for the reason of "30fps is good enough".
 
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bitbydeath

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This is an ad hoc fallacy. Assuming your claim to be true, just because more consumers buy the 30fps version over the 60fps version, that doesn't mean they're doing so for the reason of "30fps is good enough".
It is still not impacting sales. Most consumers don’t care.
 

nkarafo

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I’m saying they don’t care enough to bother forking out for the 60FPS one.
Yes, PC gaming at 60fps is a more expensive hobby than a console. Which is why 60fps needs to be a standard on consoles. So you can play at optimal speeds on all platforms and cheaper PC builds.

Seriously, the sacrifice in graphics quality isn't that big if the target is 60fps from the start. Again, look at many 60fps console games on many platforms, the difference isn't huge and sometimes these games are some of the best looking (i already gave some examples from the Gamecube library). You gain a lot by sacrificing a little, graphics today are so good that there is a lot of room to fit 60fps and still make the game look very close to a game that could only push 30fps. Because diminishing returns kick in. Technology has improved a lot since the N64 had to sacrifice a lot to run F-Zero X.

Just look at RE7, RE2 Remake or DOOM 2016. Would you say these games should be 30fps on consoles instead because they don't look good? Can you imagine how worse a frantic game like DOOM would be at 30fps? And by using your own logic, i can tell you the masses will never notice the somewhat lower polygon counts, slightly subtler effects, simpler SSAO methods, cheaper AA solutions, etc, of 60fps games. And everyone will be happy.
 
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bitbydeath

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Seriously, the sacrifice in graphics quality isn't that big if the target is 60fps from the start.
I don’t think a 480p-540p version would fly on thePS3/360.

720p would also not be as appealing on Xbox/ PS4.
 

nkarafo

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I don’t think a 480p-540p version would fly on thePS3/360.

720p would also not be as appealing on Xbox/ PS4.
Resi 7, Re2 Remake, Doom 2016.

These are not 720p. And you are ignoring everything else the developers can tweak that i mentioned in my post. You just need to drop the "720p" bomb because that would look really bad in current year right? Funny thing though, the masses would not care about that either.
 
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bitbydeath

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Resi 7, Re2 Remake, Doom 2016.

These are not 720p. And you are ignoring everything else the developers can tweak that i mentioned in my post. You just need to drop the "720p" bomb because that would look really bad in current year right?
You’re ignoring the PS3 / 360 version which would need to drop to 540P at best.

Could even go as low as 360P
 

nkarafo

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You’re ignoring the PS3 / 360 version which would need to drop to 540P at best.

Could even go as low as 360P
I want to see the receipts for that.

You are still ignoring every other graphical aspect a developer can tweak, to push your narrative. Frame rate doesn't depend on resolution alone and you know it.
 
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bitbydeath

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I want to see the receipts for that.

You are still ignoring every other graphical aspect a developer can tweak, to push your narrative. Frame rate doesn't depend on resolution alone and you know it.
So instead of taking away from resolution you would instead take the graphical style?
 

nkarafo

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So instead of taking away from resolution you would instead take the graphical style?
Just from the games in my small 360 collection, Ninja Gaiden 2, RAGE, Forza 4 and Bayonetta run at 60fps and have the same resolution as other 30fps games while still looking better than some of them.
 
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Jun 26, 2013
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I disagree and I’ve stated my argument for this. What is yours?
You can't disagree on something that is objective.

You stated that framerate is still not impacting sales and that most consumers don't care as evidence. However, you have not provided any proof that framerate has a negligent effect on sales.

Your argument is fallacious because those statements are not mutually exclusive. Most consumers can not care about framerate while framerate can impact sales at the same time.

Go play Rainbow Six Siege. Can you notice the framerate difference between game modes?
Yes. But how about we go with something more empirical rather than anecdotal?


Playing on a higher framerate led to higher accuracy and higher precision. It's not just a matter of noticing, but also player performance.
 

bitbydeath

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You can't disagree on something that is objective.

You stated that framerate is still not impacting sales and that most consumers don't care as evidence. However, you have not provided any proof that framerate has a negligent effect on sales.

Your argument is fallacious because those statements are not mutually exclusive. Most consumers can not care about framerate while framerate can impact sales at the same time.
Adding framerate impacts the rest of the game and it is up to the devs to decide what is more important.

Often resolution, graphics, animations, AI and gameplay features win out over framerate for this reason, it’s not as important to sale a game.

Yes. But how about we go with something more empirical rather than anecdotal?


Playing on a higher framerate led to higher accuracy and higher precision. It's not just a matter of noticing, but also player performance.
If everyone’s playing on the same framerate it doesn’t matter.
 

nkarafo

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The argument that smooth frame rates don't sell is silly. There is a whole industry that focuses only on that. Ever heard of the PC graphics cards market? It exists since the first 3D accelerators in 1996.
 
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Adding framerate impacts the rest of the game and it is up to the devs to decide what is more important.
And most developers who make games that require fast reflexes go 60fps.

Often resolution, graphics, animations, AI and gameplay features win out over framerate for this reason, it’s not as important to sale a game.
Then why have fighting games and shooters not shifted down to 30fps collectively?

Framerate also affects gameplay which is arguably the most important aspect of a game as it allows for more responsive controls.

If everyone’s playing on the same framerate it doesn’t matter.
Non sequitur. If a higher framerate offers a positive effect in player performance, then it actually does matter.
 
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nkarafo

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There is. Did you notice it when playing?
I don't even have to toggle between 30 and 60fps modes to notice it. I can imediatelly tell when a game runs at 30fps because it feels more sluggish and i can see the gap between frames, which is like stutter. 60fps feel more responsive and it's harder to notice the gaps between frames.

Often resolution, graphics, animations, AI and gameplay features win out over framerate for this reason, it’s not as important to sale a game.
We already established how this is false by mentioning all the huge sellers made for the masses. Maybe you have some proof otherwise?
 
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bitbydeath

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And most developers who make games that require fast reflexes go 60fps.
They didn’t last gen because power was more suited to improve graphics. We still have a few this gen like Destiny that have remained on 30FPS.

Halo 1 -3 are arguably the best in the series and were 30FPS.

Non sequitur. If a higher framerate offers a positive effect in player performance, then it actually does matter.
It’s minimal in comparison to what everything else brings.
 
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bitbydeath

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I don't even have to toggle between 30 and 60fps modes to notice it. I can imediatelly tell when a game runs at 30fps because it feels more sluggish and i can see the gap between frames, which is like stutter. 60fps feel more responsive and it's harder to notice the gaps between frames.
There’s no toggle on the console versions. 30/60 is automatically applied depending on the game mode.

We already established how this is false by mentioning all the huge sellers made for the masses. Maybe you have some proof otherwise?
Just saying it’s false doesn’t make it so, you aren’t even trying to debunk my arguments on the matter.
 
Jun 26, 2013
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They didn’t last gen because power was more suited to improve graphics. We still have a few this gen like Destiny that have remained on 30FPS.
This actually proves my point more than yours as those developers shifted to 60fps this gen.

A few isn't representative of all games either. Your "exceptions are the rule" argument falls flat.

Halo 1 -3 are arguably the best in the series and were 30FPS.
But we're talking about the present, not the past. Currently, the vast majority of developers who make racing games, shooters, fighting games, and other games that require fast reflexes go for 60fps. If framerate did not matter and if 30fps actually has a positive effect on sales, then we would be seeing a lot less 60fps games.

It’s minimal in comparison to what everything else brings.
Repeating the same assertion over and over again doesn't make it true.

The graphics were fine as it was. If it were poor then they most certainly would have focused on it over framerate.
But graphics sells, you said. So by your logic, Polyphony Digital sacrificed sales in favor for higher framerates.
 
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nkarafo

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Just saying it’s false doesn’t make it so, you aren’t even trying to debunk my arguments on the matter.
You say 60fps don't matter for sales and you didn't prove it either. The counter arguments were all the 60fps games that are made for the masses and sell millions and the fact that a whole industry exists to cater to people who want better performance from their games. I don't know what else to tell you.
 
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Spukc

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You can't disagree on something that is objective.

You stated that framerate is still not impacting sales and that most consumers don't care as evidence. However, you have not provided any proof that framerate has a negligent effect on sales.

Your argument is fallacious because those statements are not mutually exclusive. Most consumers can not care about framerate while framerate can impact sales at the same time.


Yes. But how about we go with something more empirical rather than anecdotal?


Playing on a higher framerate led to higher accuracy and higher precision. It's not just a matter of noticing, but also player performance.
240 hz is bullshit
 

Darius87

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there's games genres which prefers 60fps over 30fps but it's not many, i would say mosly one genre that's fps shooters.
fighting, racing for the most part could achieve 60fps because there's much less to render then normal open world game, that's why you'll see these genre at 60fps but that's not for all games.
resolution/gfx fidelity wins over higher fps in most cases, does that affect game sales? for consoles yes, for pc it's hard to say because there many different spec system so individual preference for gfx over fps may vary.
 

Whitecrow

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GTA V is a fukn blockbuster, it sold gazillions, just and minecraft. And noone is known for rocksolid 60 fps.

Noone is denying that with 60fps you gain precision. But that doesnt mean anything out of competitive scene, aka CoD and Fortnite.
And "gaming" is a lot lot lot lot more than a a few competitive shooters.

Sony blockbusters are all 30fps and sold millions also.
Making 60fps mandatory just because just in competitive is better is bullshit. Like, total absolute bullshit.
 

The_Mike

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How about:

Current Gen Remasters: Native 4K - 60FPS
Next Gen AAA Titles : Checkerboard 4K - 30FPS (rock solid stable)
That "rock solid stable" is a very weird term. It's primarily used for console owners, as no other gamer would accept 30 fps.

Yes, it's a stable framerate. So is 20, 15, or even 10, if you lock them. Doesn't change the fact that it runs like shit though.

It's all about your standards. I guess if you are a competitive player you simple just can't accept 30 fps, as the reaction time is too slow and the game controls are just too clunky.
 
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The_Mike

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That’s still tens of millions more people choosing to rebuy the 30FPS edition over the 60FPS PC version.
The game came out, what? Like two years on consoles before the pc version? Many, including me, bought the game for consoles, and not many double dipped when it came out for pc.

Lets face it. GTA v wasn't that great. It's just popular among younglings because of the sex and violence. It's like saying minecraft and Fortnite are the best games.
 

Whitecrow

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That "rock solid stable" is a very weird term. It's primarily used for console owners, as no other gamer would accept 30 fps.

Yes, it's a stable framerate. So is 20, 15, or even 10, if you lock them. Doesn't change the fact that it runs like shit though.

It's all about your standards. I guess if you are a competitive player you simple just can't accept 30 fps, as the reaction time is too slow and the game controls are just too clunky.
There's a turning point there, where motions starts to be more clear to human brain.
Cinema is not 24fps for any arbitrary reason.
 

Skyr

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Give me 30fps or give me death
I’ll even take 1080p to maximize the graphics leap

This only works on pc
On consoles devs design their game around a given target
Bullshit.
It’s very likely that devs will aim for at least 4K/30 next gen. So in most cases there should be the option to fall back to 1080/60.
 

b0uncyfr0

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Bullshit.
It’s very likely that devs will aim for at least 4K/30 next gen. So in most cases there should be the option to fall back to 1080/60.
You mean like this generation does with Pro and X1 checkerboarding. Next gen needs to be well above these, i.e native 1440 60 and native 4k 30.
 
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b0uncyfr0

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One issue I can think of is how good native 4k is gonna look over checker board 1800p for example.
 

gypsygib

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Definitely would want a 60FPS mode in all games for me to even consider buying another console.

1440p/60FPS with some checkerboard rendering would be the perfect middle ground for me.
 

sonomamashine

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They didn’t last gen because power was more suited to improve graphics. We still have a few this gen like Destiny that have remained on 30FPS.

Halo 1 -3 are arguably the best in the series and were 30FPS.



It’s minimal in comparison to what everything else brings.
they didn't risk it because of graphic fidelity, Halo5 graphics were bad, the main goal is to sell more units.
 

prag16

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In a general sense I definitely like 60fps, but it's also true that not every game/genre really needs it. Competitive online shooters, fast paced action games like Bayonetta, and sports games (especially racing) benefit from 60fps the most. Almost everything else can do fine with 30fps in most cases.

So in short, while I think 60fps is a good target to strive for when possible, no, there shouldn't be an enforced minimum FPS. A ridiculous idea, really to be honest.
 
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It is still not impacting sales. Most consumers don’t care.
Consumers do care, that's why CoD was ahead of BF for a LOOOOONG time on consoles ( and still is ).

Because that game was 60fps, casuals just called it "smooth".

If you gave a CoD casual a 30fps game he'd know and call the game slow.

Just because they don't exactly know, they do care.
 
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sunnysideup

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The most important thing for me is that there is no choice regarding resolutions, frame rates or any other settings.

I do not want to adjust anything. I want it to be finely tuned.
 
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Otterz4Life

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In a general sense I definitely like 60fps, but it's also true that not every game/genre really needs it. Competitive online shooters, fast paced action games like Bayonetta, and sports games (especially racing) benefit from 60fps the most. Almost everything else can do fine with 30fps in most cases.

So in short, while I think 60fps is a good target to strive for when possible, no, there shouldn't be an enforced minimum FPS. A ridiculous idea, really to be honest.
This. No reason why an open world single player games NEEDS to be 60fps. Sure, it’s nice, but devs are ALWAYS going to push the boundaries of graphics and resolution. Especially on fixed hardware like a console. Most competitive games ARE 60fps on console. Fighting games, competitive shooters and platformers are usually 60fps on consoles.

Let’s just get used to the fact that we’ll continue this debate for another 6-8 years when the PS5 and Scarlett both have some games at 30fps and others at 60fps, just like last gen. And the gen before that.
 
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Otterz4Life

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Consumers do care, that's why CoD was ahead of BF for a LOOOOONG time on consoles ( and still is ).

Because that game was 60fps, casuals just called it "smooth".

If you gave a CoD casual a 30fps game he'd know and call the game slow.

Just because they don't exactly know, they do care.
You know Zombie mode is a thing, right?
 

Shangounchained

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There's no point in playing uncharted splinter cell or hitman at 60 FPS detail is more important for such games than frame rates, 60 FPS is only really important in racing games I really don't care if red dead 2 was 60 or 400 FPS people should simply grow up.
 
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