Support NeoGAF

[Synth]

Nobody, ever, in this thread claimed that. It was you people who started these "N64 is for casuals" claims.

It wasn't claimed that the N64 is only for casuals. It was claimed that it had a more casual focus, and it did. When people think N64, they'll likely be thinking Mario 64, Zelda OoT, Mario Kart 64, GoldenEye... games that are easy to pick up and play. When the topic shifts to the Saturn, it becomes Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Panzer Dragoon, Guardian Heroes... games that are designed from an arcade mindset, and are far more difficult for the average player to play proficiently.

In what way? You just claim something without explaining yourself. Have you ever played F-Zero X? Have you ever played on Master mode? Have you ever tried the Staff ghosts? By the way, i played all these games, i'm into futuristic racers.

Wipeout has a very momentum based handling system that requires extremely delicate care to control. Despite the more difficult handling model, Wipeout combines this with narrow, snaking tracks, causing most new players to simply pinball their way around them before quitting in rage. This is not the case at all with F-Zero, where the handling is a much more traditional push left/right model, on wide tracks that are generally easy to navigate. F-Zero's challenge comes from other aspects of its game design, but it is far more approachable to a casual games player. And yes I have played it, and GX, and every Wipeout.. along with Rollcage, Extreme G, Hi-Octane, Quantum Redshift, Episode 1 Racer and nearly everything else that this subgenre has offered. I didn't attempt F-Zero X's staff ghosts, but have beaten nearly all of GX's if that helps.

WHY? You never explain yourself. Well, lets see... One is a non-linear, mission focused game, with multiple ways to play it while having some stealth elements in it. The other is a shooting gallery with the only challenge being the level design. Guess which one is the more "hardcore"...

I did explain. Both GoldenEye and Perfect Dark provide extremely generous amounts of aim assistance to help those that would otherwise struggle with FPS controls. GoldenEye goes even further, preventing you from falling from ledges, to help avoid frustration for those that struggle to both aim and navigate at the same time. The level designs have less focus on verticality, enemies are rendered mostly ineffective after being tagged with the first shot etc. More ways to complete a level does not automatically make something more hardcore oriented.. else GTA would be more hardcore than everything to release in an arcade, ever.

Also I know Quake and Duke are also N64 games... which is why they weren't in my list. I'm just saying that C&C also shouldn't be in yours.

 

[Danchi]

As a kid in the UK I didn't know what the Saturn was and I only knew one kid with a N64. Playing the library in later life, the Saturn has a far more interesting library to me. What the N64 has are these landmark titles (OoT, SM64...), but when you scratch beneath the surface it doesn't have the multitude of quirky games (mostly imports) that keep me coming back to the Saturn.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Add me to the list who didn't even know Saturn existed during PS1/N64 era.

 

[fvng]

What? Wrestling games/2d fighters are apples and oranges.

I might as well say "Power Drift? That's that casual shit, compared to a real racer like Iggy's Wreckin Balls"

It's not apples and oranges. We are comparing the fighting games on both systems and the fighting selection on n64 was slim pickins. Outside of MK and KI, those wrestling game cash grabs were all you had

 

[Thunder Monkey]

My best friend had a Saturn and a fuckton of terrific arcade ports and a few imported titles.

It really was an incredible little overlooked beauty. But the N64 had Mischief Makers.

 

[jeremy1456]

It's not apples and oranges. We are comparing the fighting games on both systems and the fighting selection on n64 was slim pickins. Outside of MK and KI, those wrestling game cash grabs were all you had

Meanwhile superior versions (compared to the PlayStation releases) were on the Saturn.

Fighting games I mean.

 

[nkarafo]

It wasn't claimed that the N64 is only for casuals. It was claimed the it had a more casual focus, and it did. When people think N64, they'll likely be thinking Mario 64, Zelda OoT, Mario Kart 64, GoldenEye... games that are easy to pick up and play. When the topic shifts to the Saturn, it becomes Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Panzer Dragoon, Guardian Heroes... games that are designed from an arcade mindset, and are far more difficult for the average player to play proficiently.

I still disagree on Goldeneye. Most non-players who ever tried to play this game (some of my friend too) couldn't even get the controls right.

Wipeout has a very momentum based handling system that requires extremely delicate care to control. Despite the more difficult handling model, Wipeout combines this with narrow, snaking tracks, causing most new players to simply pinball their way around them before quitting in rage. This is not the case at all with F-Zero, where the handling is a much more traditional push left/right model, on wide tracks that are generally easy to navigate. F-Zero's challenge comes from other aspects of its game design, but it is far more approachable to a casual games player.

F-Zero X is a harder game to master. And no, not all levels are that wide. Later cups have some annoyingly narrow tracks. F-Zero uses the boost which takes energy from your craft's shield. On Master mode you absolutely need to chain-boost (because boosting again just after a boost made you run faster) and almost drain all of your energy in order to win. You have to master the "double tap" attack to take some very narrow turns without losing speed. And, like i said, you don't use weapons, you have to aim and hit the opponents with you own craft, by hitting them at high speeds while trying not to lose control and fall off the track yourself. And maybe you don't lose as much speed as in Wipeout when you hit the barriers but in F-Zero is much easier to go off track because there are less barriers overall.

I did explain. Both GoldenEye and Perfect Dark provide extremely generous amounts of aim assistance to help those that would otherwise struggle with FPS controls. GoldenEye goes even further, preventing you from falling from ledges, to help avoid frustration for those that struggle to both aim and navigate at the same time. The level designs have less focus on verticality, enemies are rendered mostly ineffective after being tagged with the first shot etc. More ways to complete a level does not automatically make something more hardcore oriented.. else GTA would be more hardcore than everything to release in an arcade, ever.

Personally i find Quake games much more simple. They are more fast paced "brainless" action than something like Goldeneye which has some ridiculously tough missions (at least on 007 mode). I never played with auto-aim and in 007 mode i think it's disabled. Goldeneye has a complete lack of health packs as well. Some levels provide you a bulletproof shield (if you find it) but still, some 007 missions are way too hard and too long. And you have to restart the whole level again when you die. BTW, i never managed to beat 007 mode without cheating (i had 4 levels left), But i can easily finish Quake on the harder settings. And Doom 1-2 on Ultra Violence (i'm still working on Nightmare). On PC at least.

 

[wazoo]

Saturn was mainly sold in Japan, they got shmups and arcade ports and some RPGs.

N64 was mainly sold in US, they got Nintendo games and FPS.

ps1 got them all.

lack of CD for N64 killled any chance of comparison. 3d engines was the only thing you could store in so few MB. N64 could have supported arcade ports, but Sega was too strong in the arcade at that time, most saturn shmups are on STV boards (bascally saturn hardware).

 

[jeremy1456]

Saturn was mainly sold in Japan, they got shmups and arcade ports and some RPGs.

N64 was mainly sold in US, they got Nintendo games and FPS.

ps1 got them all.

lack of CD for N64 killled any chance of comparison. 3d engines was the only thing you could store in so few MB. N64 could have supported arcade ports, but Sega was too strong in the arcade at that time, most saturn shmups are on STV boards (bascally saturn hardware).

The Playstation couldn't even begin to compare when it came to FPS. WTF?

 

[wazoo]

you are right, but beside FPS, ps1 has everything from 3rd parties.

 

[kess]

personally, this is part of why i pushed for 2014 to be Year of the Saturn here for RetroGAF - not only is it 20 years old from its japanese release date, but going into this current gen, there were so many sequels, me-too design approaches & pandering to casual efforts that looking back, i mean all the reasons i didn't get one at the time (besides the soul-crushing $400 launch price tag...) play to its strengths today: it was unforgivably hardcore in its library & arcade matching efforts, and this was an era where Sega took its Nakas & moneymakers off of Sonic and onto NiGHTS & such. if anything, too many new IP's showed up (Panzer, Burning Rangers, etc) vs what was expected (proper Sonic, Streets of Rage, etc). and while the PSX was a bastion of quality japanese development, Saturn basically catered to all the core genres that are more niche nowadays - SHMUP, fighter, arcade racer, run-n-gun, etc. to me, it felt like the perfect time to celebrate this somewhat forgotten library.

There's a old Gamefan interview out there where the director of Grandia explained that their publisher (ESP) released on Saturn first because there were more "core gamers" on that system.

I'd be really interested to see how the Gamecube and N64 would compare here.

 

[jeremy1456]

you are right, but beside FPS, ps1 has everything from 3rd parties.

It has little to do with 3rd parties.

So back on topic; the Saturn had way better third party support than the N64. It was kind of baffling.

 

[PassiveObserver]

I can't believe people are treating the Sega Saturn like it was the Turbo Duo of its generation, or worst.

 

[Delstius]

Reading this thread I feel like most people around here never got their hand on a Saturn. That's kind of sad.

Anyway, I had both system and back in the days my feelings were as follow :

N64 :
- Mario, Zelda, Starfox & Smash : freaking awesome, best games of the system, played countless hours.
- Mario Kart : felt inferior to the SNES version (they removed Koopa Troopa !), 4 player multi was nice though
- Goldeneye : crappy fps, playing a fps with a gamepad felt dumb, multi was fun (but happened once in a while)
- Banjo & Kazooie : fun game once you played Mario 64 too much, it was an interesting change.
- Quest 64/Holy Magic Century : only freaking RPG on the system available in EU, I loved it even if it sucks. To be fair, at the very end of the game, it was a pain to play.
- Turok & 1080 : the not that fun games that were played when there was absolutely nothing else.

Saturn :
- Guardian Heroes, Bomberman, Shining Force 3 (CD 1, JP) : freaking awesome, best games of the system, played countless hours.
- Three Dirty Dwarves : Stupidly fun, awesome in its own way.
- Johnny Bazookatone : Honestly listened more to the awesome OST than I have played this game.
- Daytona, Dark Savior, Die Hard, Nights, Panzer Dragoon : Enjoyed those a lot, even if they were not that great.
- Bomberman Wars (JP) : a wtf Tactical RPG Bomberman, couldn't stop playing it till the end and completed it in one playthrough overnight with a friend. I loved this weird game so much.

So the N64 was mostly a Nintendo machine while the Saturn had real diversity. As a kid they were both great and complementary of each other from my experience. But I remember seeing a lot of games that I wanted to play on Saturn (Dragon Force, Legend of Oasis, Shining Force CD 2 & 3, Shining in the Holy Ark) and couldn't find anywhere. I couldn't say the same about the N64 beside Ogre Battle. Still, as a kid, I would have said that both were on equal footing.


Nowadays, as I played a lot of the games that I missed on both systems, the Saturn comes on top just because there's more good games (and 2D games...) and more diversity on it, simple as that.

 

[Synth]

I still disagree on Goldeneye. Most non-players who ever tried to play this game (some of my friend too) couldn't even get the controls right.

F-Zero X is a harder game to master though. And no, not all levels are that wide. Later cups have some annoyingly narrow tracks. F-Zero uses the boost which takes off from your craft's shield. On Master mode you absolutely need to chain-boost and almost drain all of your energy in order to win. You have to master the "double tap" attack to take some very narrow turns without losing speed. And, like i said, you don't use weapons, you have to aim and hit the opponents with you own craft, by hitting them at high speeds while trying not to lose control and fall off the track yourself. And maybe you don't lose as much speed as in Wipeout when you hit the sides but in F-Zero is much easier to go off track.

Personally i find Quake games much more simple. They are more fast paced "brainless" action than something like Goldeneye which has some ridiculously tough missions (at least on the harder modes). I never played with auto-aim and in 007 mode i think it's disabled. Goldeneye has a complete lack of health packs as well. Some levels provide you a bulletproof shield but some 007 missions are way too hard and long even with this. And you have to restart the whole level again when you die. BTW, i never managed to beat 007 mode without cheating (i had 4 levels left), But i can easily finish Quake on the harder setting.

GoldenEye is more difficult than the other games I listed there. I'll concede that. However I still see it as being the most accessible FPS to a casual for the reasons listed. I don't think giving those same players Duke Nukem 3D was going to see better success.

For F-Zero our disagreement seems to stem from how we see games as being suitable for casuals. I see it as a game is better tailored towards casuals if when they play it they are more likely to see success. This does not mean the game can not also have a higher skill ceiling.. but by the time that becomes a factor, the player would have already become proficient, and would no longer count as casual. Wipeout is not well suited to casuals, because the amount of time it generally takes to see success is longer than most casual players will be willing to give it. I also disagree that F-Zero is more difficult to master. It may be more difficult to complete, but you'll be running nigh-perfect laps on the most difficult of F-Zero stages long before you even begin to approach the same level of mastery on even mid-level Wipeout tracks on Phantom.

This too applies to GoldenEye. Someone can attempt the highest difficulty level, and struggle with it if they like, but the game is easier to play in the first place, and someone starting at a default difficulty is far more likely to complete the game, than that same person would be to complete Duke Nukem 3D. You can't use your own experiences as a hardcore gamer to judge the game's challenge as you are not playing it in the way a casual player would attempt to. The N64's library in general serves a casual gamer well, whilst the Saturn's tends to require a more experienced player as a criteria for enjoying most of the games. That's the difference.

 

[kess]

Oh yeah, I see the Saturn Netlink Forum is still around. Somebody out there is still playing Duke Nukem Online...

 

[nkarafo]

You can't use your own experiences as a hardcore gamer to judge the game's challenge as you are not playing it in the way a casual player would attempt to. The N64's library in general serves a casual gamer well, whilst the Saturn's tends to require a more experienced player as a criteria for enjoying most of the games. That's the difference.

So from what you are saying, i understand that the N64 is good for both casuals and hardcore gamers. The games are easier to get into, but they still require a "hardcore level" of skill to master/beat. While the Saturn is only for Hardcore players, according to you.

I don't see this as a bad thing for the N64. It shows a better/wider difficulty curve. Its actually the better deal. Because everyone is happy. It would be "snobbish" if i wasn't happy that someone (who is not the best gamer) may enjoy Goldeneye or F-Zero X at the lower difficulties.

 

[jeremy1456]

I'm genuinely surprised.

I thought Saturn and N64 fans would find some sort of comradery.

Instead it turned into a casuals vs. hardcore gamers fight. Both had hardcore and casual games, but you guys are hell bent on being dysfunctional.

 

[wazoo]

I> thought Saturn and N64 fans would find some sort of comradery.

Based on what ? As you said, they are fondamentally different libraries.

 

[meppi]

I can't believe people are treating the Sega Saturn like it was the Turbo Duo of its generation, or worst.

I can't believe people are talking about the TurboDuo like that since the PC Engine was one of the greatest systems created.

Anyway, all these "I never even seen, let alone played a Saturn, so that means it's beyond terrible" posts are kinda embarrassing to even read.

I got my Saturn 2 months after my N64, which I imported since Nintendo decided to push the launch back just at the last minute.
The N64 release calendar looks eerily similar to that of the Wii U. Even the 3rd party support seems to be somewhat at the same level. :-/

The Saturn did have a quite steady stream of excellent games with some all time classics hitting every 3-4 months or so.
And when you take imports into account, which is something every self respecting Saturn gamer did at one point or another, it easily tripled the catalogue of awesome games.

The same can't really be said about the N64.
Although when a game finally did come out for it, chances were that it was an instant classic that would set the tone for where the genre would go and one of the top games for it for a long time.
Still doesn't take away that it took for what felt like ages for games to come out for it, with terrible droughts in between.

So yeah, even though I love my N64's, my vote would without a doubt go to the Sega Saturn.

 

[jeremy1456]

I> thought Saturn and N64 fans would find some sort of comradery.

Based on what ? As you said, they are fondamentally different libraries.

Which makes them perfect consoles to accent one another.

They play amazingly well on each others weaknesses.

 

[orioto]

Those two consoles defines, by their differences, everything that was about to change in video games.. They are so so so opposed to each other, and aimed at two different world...

I mean when you loved the Saturn for its japanese library, its SNK/capcom fighters, its 2d games, arcade games, puzzle games... The N64 seems like the most boring thing ever, except for some games of course. I played Mario 64, Mario Kart 64.. Wave Race is a masterpiece..

But the Saturn, for me, was an endless ocean of amazing discoveries.

 

[Synth]

So from what you are saying, i understand that the N64 is good for both casuals and hardcore gamers. The games are easier to get into, but they still require a "hardcore level" of skill to master/beat. While the Saturn is only for Hardcore players.

I don't see this as a bad thing for the N64. It shows a better/wider difficulty curve. Its actually the better deal. Because everyone is happy.

In a way yes, that is correct. It's not absolute though, as this also has some knock on effects. For example one of the reasons Rare is less successful outside of Nintendo's realm, is because their audience isn't there (same with Sega and Sonic). So the Saturn's more hardcore focus also extended to it receiving some games that the N64 didn't get (such as Street Fighter again). Not only that but some games simply can't be created in the same competitive manner if you're trying to be more inclusive to lesser skilled gamers. Daytona USA sometimes gets torn apart for its handling by those that struggle to understand it, yet making concessions to make it easier for these people prevents it being Daytona USA anymore. Similarly Wipeout could not feel the way it does, if they tried to make it as approachable as F-Zero... and that is one of the reasons I prefer it. Lastly how do you make Virtua Fighter 2 simple without detracting from those that still play it to this day? Virtua Fighter Kids made an attempt at this, and the answer (similar to CvS2:EO) was simply 'macros' to make executioner easier. There was no real way to lower the skill ceiling without losing what made the game great.

So many genres that the Saturn excelled in, it did so because the audience there was more receptive to them. The strong Nintendo bias of the N64's general userbase left it with huge gaps in its library because the owners were less likely to purchase other games.. and this has been a problem for Nintendo ever since. So whilst the N64 is definitely serviceable for hardcore players, I would argue that the Saturn absolutely runs rings around it, and its not even close.

 

[Celine]

At the time of release I did know just one guy who owned a Saturn, everybody else owned a PS1 and a few a N64 (at least that was my impression in Italy).

Now which one I prefer more? Hard question.
IMO N64 had more "classics" in no small feat thanks to Nintendo and Rare however Saturn has tons of fun games especially if you don't mind importing.

They both were kinda wack. The N64 had like three good games on it and you had to be a Sega fan and be into a few specific styles of games to get anything out of the Saturn.

Yeah but PS1 had like 2 good games and no one cares for Sony games

Spoiler

*hyperbole much*

 

[nkarafo]

In a way yes, that is correct. It's not absolute though, as this also has some knock on effects. For example one of the reasons Rare is less successful outside of Nintendo's realm, is because their audience isn't there

Btw, RARE made Blast Corps. This game isn't the easiest to get into at all. Especially that thing:

...Let alone unlocking everything.

RARE isn't successful because they stopped making as good games as those on N64. They weren't that successful on GC either, despite being inside Nintendo's realm.

So the Saturn's more hardcore focus also extended to it receiving some games that the N64 didn't get (such as Street Fighter again)

That wasn't the reason it didn't get Street Fighter though. Capcom never really supported the machine outside of a Tetris game. Also, its a game with lots of sprites and hand drawn animation frames and that requires lots of space.

Daytona USA sometimes gets torn apart for its handling by those that struggle to understand it, yet making concessions to make it easier for these people prevents it being Daytona USA anymore.

Same with World Driver Championship. Its a pretty demanding game even from the start.

Similarly Wipeout could not feel the way it does, if they tried to make it as approachable as F-Zero... and that is one of the reasons I prefer it.

Ok, i respect that but its not that the N64 didn't have a good Wipeout port... I do believe that it was better than the Saturn one.


As for 3D fighters, i'll give you that, i'm not into them nor i have much experience.

 

[Astro Monster]

One of the easiest decisions I have ever made on here (Owned both).

N64. By a LONG shot.

 

[kswiston]

Saturn was the clear winner when it came to fighting games and JRPGs/Tactical titles. Since those were two of my favourite genres at the time, I would have to go with the Saturn. Sega first party might not be as strong as Nintendo's, but they took more risks and therefore produced a greater variety of games. Saturn was great for trying out new things.

If you like 3D platform and Adventure games, then N64 was leagues better.

 

[Celine]

it has easily the weakest library of a nintendo console, assuming the WU has some more gems before its end.

N64 has the shortest library of every Nintendo system (except VB) but Nintendo developers were on fire at the time, so much that speaking only about home console N64 has the better Nintendo output ever IMO.

 

[jeremy1456]

That wasn't the reason it didn't get Street Fighter though. Capcom never really supported the machine outside a Tetris game.

Capcom actually released a port of Mega Man Legends, and Resident Evil 2 for the platform.

The amount of revisionist history that's going on here is legendary.

 

[DungeonO]

I> thought Saturn and N64 fans would find some sort of comradery.

Based on what ? As you said, they are fondamentally different libraries.

Based on the fact that anyone alive from that era should be an adult by this point. Normal adults don't argue about what game format from 20 years ago was better. Dysfunctional trauma victims stuck in their own childhoods do. I had all three consoles in that era. All three had exclusives that made all three consoles awesome. Nights, Daytona, Sega Rally, San Francisco Rush, Top Gear, World Driver, Panzer Dragoon, Parappa, Crash Bandicoot, Majoras Mask, Ocarina, Banjo, Conker, AKI Wrestling, Bomberman on all formats, Duke Nukem, Cool Boarders, final Fantasy, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Paper Mario, GoldenEye. It was a wonderful time to be a gamer.

 

[kswiston]

That wasn't the reason it didn't get Street Fighter though. Capcom never really supported the machine outside a Tetris game. Also, its a game whith lots of sprites and drawn animation frames and that requires lots of space.

N64's cartridges went up to 64MB. All of Capcom's CPS2 games would have fit on a cart, if Capcom was interested in porting them to the N64.

 

[nkarafo]

Capcom actually released a port of Mega Man Legends, and Resident Evil 2 for the platform.

The amount of revisionist history that's going on here is legendary.

RE2 was a port made by some other developers. Like i said, Capcom didn't give a damn about the N64.

N64's cartridges went up to 64MB. All of Capcom's CPS2 games would have fit on a cart, if Capcom was interested in porting them to the N64.

Probably, although there are only 2 or 3 games that used such big carts.

 

[meppi]

Based on the fact that anyone alive from that era should be an adult by this point. Normal adults don't argue about what game format from 20 years ago was better. Dysfunctional trauma victims stuck in their own childhoods do. I had all three consoles in that era. All three had exclusives that made all three consoles awesome. Nights, Daytona, Sega Rally, San Francisco Rush, Top Gear, World Driver, Panzer Dragoon, Parappa, Crash Bandicoot, Majoras Mask, Ocarina, Banjo, Conker, AKI Wrestling, Bomberman on all formats, Duke Nukem, Cool Boarders, final Fantasy, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Paper Mario, GoldenEye. It was a wonderful time to be a gamer.

I can certainly agree with that. 32-bit era still is my favourite one without a doubt.

 

[jeremy1456]

RE2 was a port made by some other developers. Like i said, Capcom didn't give a damn about the N64.

It was published and funded by Capcom. What about Mega Man 64? Resident Evil 0? (I know it was never released, but they did care later on.)

 

[jfoul]

I preferred the Saturn because I imported, and I was a huge fan of the Capcom fighting games at the time. Most of the VS. series was only arcade perfect on the Saturn with the RAM cartridge.

I have fond memories from all of the consoles during that time, I owned all of them.

 

[nkarafo]

It was published and funded by Capcom. What about Mega Man 64? Resident Evil 0? (I know it was never released, but they did care later on.)

Still not enough compared to Saturn and PS1 support. Or even compared to Konami.

N64 had much better support from Western 3rd developers.

 

[kswiston]

Probably, although there are only 2 or 3 games that used such big carts.

Street Fighter Alpha 1-2, the first couple Darkstalker games, and a few others would have fit on 32MB carts if we are going off the ROM size of the arcade games.

 

[KojiKnight]

It wasn't claimed that the N64 is only for casuals. It was claimed that it had a more casual focus, and it did. When people think N64, they'll likely be thinking Mario 64, Zelda OoT, Mario Kart 64, GoldenEye... games that are easy to pick up and play. When the topic shifts to the Saturn, it becomes Virtua Fighter 2, Sega Rally, Panzer Dragoon, Guardian Heroes... games that are designed from an arcade mindset, and are far more difficult for the average player to play proficiently.

Can we please not pretend that anything "arcade" means "harder"... Arcades are designed to be mostly straight forward and inviting. Yeah, they ramp up the difficulty super high because they wanted to munch quarters... but home consoles alleviated the quarter munching so it's not a very frustrating experience.

Having had both a Saturn and a N64 (actually got the saturn first, my first sega console I owned, had been strictly nintendo since the NES) I can tell you there was nothing "hard" about Panzer Dragoon, Virtua Fighter, or Sega Rally compared to the games for N64 you listed (Hell, Mario Kart is as "arcade-y" as games get... which is why they made it into an arcade game the next generation )

 

[daxgame]

well, I begun my "career" with an N64, so hah.

I actually already owned a NES and a Snes, but I was going to elementary school back then, so everything - games included was a gift. I never picked anything.

Then, Playstation, came out, I knew what it was but somehow didn't care. All of my friends owned a playstation, with all their games pirated, lol.
Few years passed and it was only in middle school that I decided myself that I wanted a new console.
I knew if I bought a playstation I could exchange games with them.

Yet, for some reason, I think I saw Nintendo's commercials, heard around that N64 was "more powerful", and became enchanted by a DK N64 pack w expansion pack I saw in a market. It was also discounted.
It wasn't the green one though, the N64 it was black.
I picked it for weird reasons - I didn't even own classics like DK country on the SNES - and in the end I had tons of fun.
Guess what? All my friends who owned a playstation came to my house to play Mario Kart, hahaha.


As for Sega Saturn, I had no idea it even existed actually. Nobody I knew owned one

 

[jeremy1456]

Still not enough compared to Saturn and PS1 support. Or even compared to Konami.

N64 had much better support from Western 3rd developers.

Capcom genuinely didn't seem to care until the very end, but they did.

I wasn't arguing that they didn't support the 32 bit twins more.

 

[DungeonO]

Still not enough compared to Saturn and PS1 support. Or even compared to Konami.

N64 had much better support from Western 3rd developers.

People talk about Xbox picking up where Dreamcast left off, but I always felt it was actually the N64 it replaced. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark we're it in terms of massively popular console FPSes. Halo picked up immediately from Perfect Dark in my group of friends.

 

[Synth]

Btw, RARE made Blast Corps. This game isn't the easiest to get into at all. Especially that thing:

...Let alone unlocking everything.

That wasn't the reason it didn't get Street Fighter though. It didn't get SF because Capcom never really supported the machine outside a Tetris game. Also, its a game whith lots of sprites and drawn animation frames and that requires lots of space.

Same with World Driver Championship. Its a pretty demanding game even from the start.

Ok, i respect that but its not that the N64 didn't have a good Wipeout port... I do believe that it was better than the Saturn one.

As for 3D fighters, i'll give you that, i'm not into them nor i have experience.

That truck was a bastard... but most of Blast Corps wasn't difficult to manage. That wasn't really my point though. The audience preferences often dictate what types of games a console see. Rare's general brand of mascot item collecting doesn't overlap very well with the Xbox userbase, much like the arcade scene didn't match up with the userbase of the N64. Why exactly did Capcom not push games for it? Was it because people were less likely to by them? I'm definitely not going with the assumption that it was too limited by space if the SNES was able to get a Street Fighter Alpha 2 port, and a quick Google search tells me the Arcade version clocks in at 13mb. If we were talking Street Fighter 3 here, then I would understand. The absence of Capcom is just an example of how large some of the gaps in the N64's library was. It's not like this was some small company not putting games out on it.

Wipeout 64 was neither a good port of Wipeout 2097.. or a port at all. It's a completely different game, and definitely not one I would say is better than 2097 on Saturn (especially in terms of audio, which is important for Wipeout). That isn't really important though, because I'm not actually claiming that Wipeout is an example of the Saturn being more hardcore focused. I was using it as a reason why F-Zero is not. Overall the Saturn's identity was established in the arcades, and that had a large effect on its library. I'm not saying that a more casual approach is bad (although I do think the N64's library was bad), I'm just saying that I agree with the N64 being labelled as having a generally more casual library then that of the Saturn. You disagreed with that, and so here we are debating it.

 

[nkarafo]

I wasn't arguing that they didn't support the 32 bit twins more.

Yes, i know, i just made the comparison because it showed that Capcom didn't really care for the N64. I guess when they did, it was too late.

I remember how frustrated i was when i learned that the mighty Capcom was going to support the console with a... magical Tetris Disney game

 

[petran79]

There's a old Gamefan interview out there where the director of Grandia explained that their publisher (ESP) released on Saturn first because there were more "core gamers" on that system.

I'd be really interested to see how the Gamecube and N64 would compare here.

Saturn aimed more at the arcade audience.
same went for Atari Jaguar, Neo Geo CD, Playstation 1 and 3DO.

Nintendo 64 targeted a completely different audience, since a lot of third party SNES developers had moved to the other consoles.

in the long run, Nintendo's game proved right, especially after the demise of arcades and the birth of a new generation of core gamers.

Can we please not pretend that anything "arcade" means "harder"... Arcades are designed to be mostly straight forward and inviting. Yeah, they ramp up the difficulty super high because they wanted to munch quarters... but home consoles alleviated the quarter munching so it's not a very frustrating experience.

Having had both a Saturn and a N64 (actually got the saturn first, my first sega console I owned, had been strictly nintendo since the NES) I can tell you there was nothing "hard" about Panzer Dragoon, Virtua Fighter, or Sega Rally compared to the games for N64 you listed (Hell, Mario Kart is as "arcade-y" as games get... which is why they made it into an arcade game the next generation )

playing games at the comfort of your home and with a pause button to boot at, is completely different than playing in a foreign environment with greasy sticks, seats and wheels. there lies the difficulty. adding someone waiting behind you in order to play, makes it even more frustrating

 

[Celine]

Whereas on the Saturn and Playstation 1 it seems like developers were offering the best that modern technology had to offer on the Nintendo 64, despite the superior hardware it felt like they were struggling to meet better results and usually delivered something much worse. Look no further than Castlevania as an example of that...

Castlevania is a bad example.
The difference between SotN and C64 is that they took radically different approaches.
The former is a "standard" but very very good 2D game.

With C64 Konami (Kobe) tried to jump the series to 3D which is a step much more difficult regardless of the hardware.

 

[Rebel Leader]

N64: Mario 64, golden eye, Zelda, Forsaken 64, Mario kart, Perfect dark, majora's mask, diddy kong racing, RUSH!... I could go on

For the Saturn... I can't remember =p

 

[DungeonO]

N64: Mario 64, golden eye, Zelda, Forsaken 64, Mario kart, Perfect dark, majora's mask, diddy kong racing, RUSH!... I could go on

Cool. They could go on with similar lists for the other two. And PC for that matter. And the GameBoy. They were all great. As are most consoles, quite frankly. PS3 has as many great games as the N64 or Saturn. As does the Wii, funny enough. I really hoped this was going to be an appreciation thread. My mistake.

 

[kswiston]

in the long run, Nintendo's game proved right, especially after the demise of arcades and the birth of a new generation of core gamers.

Being right didn't help them any. They went through a decade of declining hardware and software sales trying to appeal to those core games, before giving up to target another audience on Wii. And now that the blue ocean audience is gone, Nintendo is having a difficult time getting core gamers to jump back on board.

Cool. They could go on with similar lists for the other two. And PC for that matter. And the GameBoy. They were all great. As are most consoles, quite frankly. PS3 has as many great games as the N64 or Saturn. As does the Wii, funny enough. I really hoped this was going to be an appreciation thread. My mistake.

If your goal is to build a great library of 25-30 titles, I can't think of any major system that wasn't worth owning. You have to start getting to the 32x and its ilk before that metric can't be met.

 

[nkarafo]

Why exactly did Capcom not push games for it? Was it because people were less likely to by them?

Oh, no, not at all. I assure you that every single N64 user was waiting for anything by Capcom. Anything except a stupid puzzle game that is. A good SF port would sell as good as a N64 game could ever sell, that's a given.

Maybe Capcom didn't like the cartridges (despite having enough room or not) because they were expensive to produce? Maybe the hardware wasn't good enough for 2D sprites? Yes, i know about Yoshi's Story and Mischief Makers but i remember reading in a forum that even in those games its the 3D hardware that's been utilized in a way. Maybe that wasn't good for a game like SF? Maybe they thought that N64 users only care about 3D polygonal games?

Does anyone even know for sure?

 

[KojiKnight]

playing games at the comfort of your home and with a pause button to boot at, is completely different than playing in a foreign environment with greasy sticks, seats and wheels. there lies the difficulty. adding someone waiting behind you in order to play, makes it even more frustrating

... Kind of my point?

The person I quoted made it seem like N64 games were pick up and play, where Saturn's arcade heavy games weren't... Even in the arcades though, games were still designed to be simple to grasp. Even fighting games were (you beat the other guy up!) though of course they took skill to master, as with any game.