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Nintendo majorly retconned the events of Zelda Majora's Mask recently
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
Linkstrikesback
Member
There is nothing in the game that suggests it is a dream other than maybe that vague AiW reference. And that is a stretch. Especially since the game shows the world continuing in the credits the day after Link, Skull Kid and the happy mask salesman leave.
WrenchNinja
Member
Lorule could be breached through cracks in reality but looks oddly similar to Hyrule. The Silent Realms exist in another reality but somehow look like the current world. Why can't a place that constantly warps you if you don't go the right way warp you to a different world that still looks vaguely similar? There's nothing in the game itself saying it's a dream. Whether it fades away or not matters a lot because it detracts from the journey if everything gets wiped away. You go out of your way to reunite Anju and Kafei, and for what reason? To see them in the credits finally getting married after so many rewinds. But that all goes away if they were never real with Skull Kid waking up. You can spin this as, "Oh, that's just Majoras Mask being tragic to the end" but I'm not a fan of things where a happy ending is earned only for the rug to be pulled under you from throwaway commentary from the creators who couldn't bothered to leave it in the text.
Like it's great if you thought the whole game a dream as aa metaphor, and that's great for essays and shit but making it literal takes a lot away from the game.
Like it's great if you thought the whole game a dream as aa metaphor, and that's great for essays and shit but making it literal takes a lot away from the game.
In other words, it's just your interpretation of the events. Maybe try not presenting your interpretations and opinions as facts when making definitive statements about the writers' intent.
themagicalkitsune
Member
Every Zelda game was a dream, and then Link woke up back in Kokiri Forest. There, everything is retconned.
It's my interpretation of events and according to this new information, also Nintendo's.
ArchedThunder
Banned
You've got your timelines crossed, Majora's Mask is in the same timeline as Twilight Princess. The timeline where there wasn't a Link to stop Ganon was the adult timeline because when Link was sent back to the past at the end of Ocarina to live his childhood it didn't leave a copy of him in the future.
TwilightPrincess
Member
It ceases to exist, that doesn't mean it never existed.
Link couldn't just leave once he got the ocarina. The only way to leave was to defeat the Mask and return it to the Salesman.
ArchedThunder
Banned
And then Majora would still be taking over Skullkid and become a threat to Hyrule... Link Stopping Majora in Termina stopped Majora from becoming a threat to Hyrule.
Also what makes you think Link would even be able to leave?
Tyraniboah
Member
If Termina ceases to exist after Link leaves, then when or how did it come into existence? The game has a scene where Tatl recalls Skull Kid shivering from the cold rain clearly in Termina, before he stole the mask. Tatl and Tael were there when he stole it, though it's not entirely clear where they were when the Happy Mask Salesman was knocked out. I don't see how it's possible for the Skull Kid to exist in a world he created with the power of a mask he hadn't yet stolen. This is a stupid retcon that trivializes nearly the entire plot of my favorite Zelda story.
It makes more sense to keep the (already established?) explanation that Termina is a parallel world and maybe go on to say that Link can't ever return after he leaves or something. "It was all a dream" was fine with Link's Awakening. Don't need that a second time, almost two decades after the fact.
It makes more sense to keep the (already established?) explanation that Termina is a parallel world and maybe go on to say that Link can't ever return after he leaves or something. "It was all a dream" was fine with Link's Awakening. Don't need that a second time, almost two decades after the fact.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Termina is a twisted version of Hyrule created by Majora using Skullkid's psyche. All of the flashback scenes were actually in Hyrule.
it is like the writers intent doesn't matter, only what is in the games
WrenchNinja
Member
Timeline complaints in a Majora's Mask thread when Majora's Mask is a direct sequel of OoT with the same Link as OoT.
And BotW gives more acknowledgement of the timeline than any other Zelda.
Breath of the Wild is the first game in awhile to not be some sort of direct sequel or prequel to something. Skyward Sword was the last major console Zelda and the very beginning of everything, Link between Worlds is a new Link in the same version of Hyrule as ALttP. ALttP went on his own journey and ended in Awakening.
Adult Timeline with Wind Waker are nothing but direct sequels and more focused continuity.
And BotW gives more acknowledgement of the timeline than any other Zelda.
Breath of the Wild is the first game in awhile to not be some sort of direct sequel or prequel to something. Skyward Sword was the last major console Zelda and the very beginning of everything, Link between Worlds is a new Link in the same version of Hyrule as ALttP. ALttP went on his own journey and ended in Awakening.
Adult Timeline with Wind Waker are nothing but direct sequels and more focused continuity.
Lights and Waves
Member
Um. Wasn't it always a dream?
ArchedThunder
Banned
Doesn't matter that the cutscene visually takes place in the game world, the actual events were in Hyrule.
Lol, it doesn't matter?
Termina clearly has its own history that predates skull kid. This whole discussion is ridiculous.
Funny how Tatl doesn't seem to find it strange for the drawing to be in Termina if it actually took place in Hyrule.
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If that were their intention, couldn't they just have reused an OoT environment? It's not like it'd have required the creation of new assets to port in the Forest Meadow or some part of the Lost Woods - or even just put it in the area from the beginning of MM itself.
WrenchNinja
Member
if they wanted to show Skull Kid, Tatl, and Tael outside of Hyrule Castle or literally anywhere in Hyrule, they could have easily used the assets for the cutscene
But they didn't
Hell this is something they could have changed in Majora's Mask 3D
But they didn't
Astral Dog
Member
This doesn't change much,it was always about the Skull Kid/Majoras Mask.
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
Actually, no, not as I understand it. I believe the split occurs once Link is sent back in time in OoT, which means TP Ganondorf is the one who was stopped before he could take the Triforce and WW Ganondorf was the one who was stopped after his 7 year reign.
Yeah, right? The twist wouldn't add anything, only take away, since if the world ceases to exist afterwards then what is the point of saving it? Again, comparing to
Link's Awakening
Same. The only real way that this matters is that Nintendo isn't likely to contradict it in the future and so a return to Terminal ala LBW's return to LttP's Hyrule is now very very unlikely. But it already wasn't likely to happen anyways. Maybe the 3DS Majora's Mask with inferior Zora swimming was a dream though...
Obviously I'm just joking. ;p
Another good point, though to be fair if Terminal was made by the mask, there isn't really any reason fairies couldn't be. My main objection to the twist is it lacks any real purpose than to tie up loose ends that never needed to be tied up.
I'm fine with this, it actually raises some interesting questions. I also like the distinction that Majora's Mask made the world rather than Link or Skull Kid, because then it keeps the mystery of the world and the mask, like where did it come from if it made Terminal? Skull Kid, and especially Link, do not have enough depth of character for it be believable that the world reflects them alone.
It just doesn't really seem to add up, huh? Of course these are all just opinions, but I truly believe the original "authorial intent" didn't include this retcon.
I agree. Ambiguity is more interesting, and in my opinion I don't think the creators intended this to be the nature of Terminal anyways.
The only issue is that there is now an "official" source pointing in this direction, so those who subscribe to it are understandably believing they are in the right. I understand why that poster is being definite about their opinion, but in all honesty none of us can be sure of the original intent, we can only debate it.
Agreed, Ikana Tower and the surrounding region is especially interesting. I remember reading a lot of different theories about the history of Termina that honestly are probably analyzing things too hard but were still interesting, and this retcon screws with the mystery of the world. This is why if the world is created at the beginning of the game, I prefer to see it as mostly Majora's own influence that formed it, since then we can still read into the mystery of the world as a way to get an interesting look at the possible history of the mask.
Termina continuing after the game is the most important to me, but then again, does a fictional world's existence when not being observed matter anyways? In my opinion yes, but this question can be pretty interesting if it is presented within the work itself.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Story is an afterthought to Nintendo, is it really surprising?
That history would have come into existence when Majora created the world. You can say the discussion is ridiculous, but this official book says Termina was created by Majora from Skullkid.
stan423321
Member
For what it's worth, I followed the "Link" in the OP, to find a major dispute regarding credibility of the source. Hyrule Encyclopedia seems to be authorized by Nintendo to some level, but happens to contradict at least as well authorized Hyrule Historia on another issue - placement of GameBoy games in the timeline and their Link's singularity, specifically; HH established (LttP, OoX, LA) while HE claims [(LttP, LA), timeskip, (OoX)]. You could say Nintendo also retconned that in the meanwhile, but why the hell would they do this when no other game recently was messing with elements specific to these and there was no confusion there whatsoever? This is closer to establishing that Downfall Timeline is someone's delirium dream more than saying anything on Majora's Mask.
The interesting thing is that I recently was thinking where's the Child Timeline equivalent of LA/PH given that the two games are very clearly alternative timeline takes on the same setup - and while this checks a few marks it's clearly not enough of them to count.
The interesting thing is that I recently was thinking where's the Child Timeline equivalent of LA/PH given that the two games are very clearly alternative timeline takes on the same setup - and while this checks a few marks it's clearly not enough of them to count.
AdmiralSnackbar
Member
Why can't termina just be another alternate world.
There's the dark world, the twighlight world, lowrule, and even some sort of minnish dimension or something.
If anything make lowrule a dream, it was the most bullshit of all of them.
There's the dark world, the twighlight world, lowrule, and even some sort of minnish dimension or something.
If anything make lowrule a dream, it was the most bullshit of all of them.
SpiceMelange
Member
The preface of the new encyclopedia explicitly says that the author took liberties on the interpretation of Zelda lore. It's paid fan stuff.
tldr: it doesn't mean anything.
tldr: it doesn't mean anything.
Minish are just very tiny creatures and you shrink down to their size in Minish Cap.
Green Mamba
Member
Worth noting that the Encyclopedia also establishes that the Kokiri were originally Hylians.
The Encyclopedia also retcons the timeline established in Hyrule Historia slightly, switching the places of the Oracle games and Link's Awakening and states that the Oracle games feature a different Link than ALttP and LA.
It also has no information on BotW at all.
The Encyclopedia also retcons the timeline established in Hyrule Historia slightly, switching the places of the Oracle games and Link's Awakening and states that the Oracle games feature a different Link than ALttP and LA.
It also has no information on BotW at all.
Pretty sure is called Termina because is a "terminal" where people from all places come and go, as in a real place that never ceases to exist.
QuixoticNeutral
Member
I'll never understand why people fuss around so much with canon and continuity in the Zelda games when that's just not how the storytelling method of the series operates, and was actually a little disappointed when Hyrule Historia played to the timeline crowd by exposing something that should only ever have been used for interrnal guidance and revealed through oblique suggestion. But western game communities (or science fiction and fantasy communities in general) have an unhealthy one-size-fits-all fetish for 'canon' as though the point of following a story, any story, were to tidy up the wiki.
If it's not in the game, why think about it?
If it's not in the game, why think about it?
Dangansona
Member
Not sure why people feel the need to come into Zelda threads and tell people they are wrong for finding any value in the timeline or believing that it isn't 100% Nintendo pulling it out of their asses.
As for OP, I think I can live with that revelation (not retcon). I always knew it was some kind of dream or trick and I don't think it in any way hinders the themes of grief or loss in the game. Still kinda thought the idea of Link somehow dying during or as a result of the events of MM was cool though. Oh well.
As for OP, I think I can live with that revelation (not retcon). I always knew it was some kind of dream or trick and I don't think it in any way hinders the themes of grief or loss in the game. Still kinda thought the idea of Link somehow dying during or as a result of the events of MM was cool though. Oh well.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I would like for my contribution to every Zelda timeline discussion to be me screaming WHO CAAAAAAAAAAAAARES so loud that no one else can be heard but visually and without me getting banned
because seriously who fucking cares
Nintendo doesn't, neither should you
because seriously who fucking cares
Nintendo doesn't, neither should you
Nintendo seems happy to change and adapt the timeline a bit arbitrarily. As we can see in this situation, the Hyrule Historia wasn't meant to be definitive so I'm not really trusting this "word of God" as it might change again in the future.
Having said that, Termina was never meant to be a real place like for example Labrynna or Holodrum. And even as an alternate dimension, it always seemed to be much closer to Koholit Island than let's say Lorule.
As many things were never planned to begin with, it's easy to have a personal head canon and ignore stuff like this, I'm not up in arms about it personally.
Having said that, Termina was never meant to be a real place like for example Labrynna or Holodrum. And even as an alternate dimension, it always seemed to be much closer to Koholit Island than let's say Lorule.
As many things were never planned to begin with, it's easy to have a personal head canon and ignore stuff like this, I'm not up in arms about it personally.
But they do or why else was Skyward Sword made? They firmly said that it was the origin story for the main characters of the series and much of the lore in Zelda as well as being the beginning of the timeline.
You're right in saying that they care, to a certain degree. But let's not forget that is the fourth supposedly origin story of the series either: A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, The Minish Cap and Skyward Sword as the most recent one. If gameplay or development ideas demand it, we'll have games taking place before Skyward Sword sooner or later, count on it.
QuixoticNeutral
Member
Yes, because it's not at all self-evident to me that Calamity Ganon did or should affect Termina/Lorule. Hyrule itself isn't a consistent place so much as an archetype built upon the faintest memories of other archetypes. It's an iterated concept and quite literally a legend, and the presence of elements alluding to other games like (southwest BotW)
a place called the Arbiter's Grounds buried deep in the Gerudo Desert
I guess I'm coming to this from a perspective where the oblique, ambiguous, faintly connective mythmaking of the Zelda series makes total intuitive sense and is also innately satisfying. It doesn't need to fall into a single world with a single story; that's how many other stories work, but that's not how this one works or needs to work.
It's fun dude. Thinking about this stuff is a fun thing to do.
If you aren't having fun go do something else? Do you also take toys of kids for using them wrong?
It used to be a parallel world. Now it's a dream. Very different.
Kind of hard to go further back than what they did. Even at the very end, Demise cursed your blood and that you'll forever be intertwined in conflict with him. You also created the Master Sword and Zelda realized she is the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia.
Ocarina of Time spoke of the origin of the world and its creation and the reason they hid the Triforce in another realm. Nothing in Skyward Sword even contradicts it but instead expands upon it in the opening prologue.