WrenchNinja
Member
Being an alternate universe is a whole lot different than being the fiction in another character's head that eventually disappears
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Nintendo majorly retconned the events of Zelda Majora's Mask recently
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
MarcoZombieCannon
Member
It's real easy to say things are whatever you want em to be when they're outside of, and ignore, the context of the game. Feels like they're only coming out and saying this since they're starting to take the timeline a little more seriously, and this neatens things up a little.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Considering where and when the mask comes in it makes me wonder if Fierce Deity is part of Majora's psyche.
So I will admit I always thought this was always the case, no?
Link is led to Termina by Skull Kid/Majora, Link and the Happy Mask Salesman are both "outsiders" that arrive/are in Termina but are not part of its regular flow. I never thought it was Link's dream/fever dream/lapse before death, since it all exists before he arrives. I was always under the impression that Link arrives *in* Skull Kid/Majora's little dream of nightmares. The fact that the HMS is in Termina *before* Link and he's most certainly a real person led me to always assume that the story cannot be coming from Link's psyche. Link is in a play and Majora is the director, and he much more easily fits that role than Link would, especially since Majora is effectively omniscient in Termina as one would be if they were the creators of the play. Majora sees it as a game (probably in part from the Skull Kid overlap on the mask) and he's the game master.
Everything in the world is framed on the Skull Kid's mental state of loneliness. Everyone is either alone, dead/haunted by loneliness and failure (and as such obviously alone), in an unrequited love, etc, its all about the same state of loneliness. The moon is also under the control of the Skull Kid/Majora.
Where I thought that broke down was the Moon. The inside of the Moon always stuck out to me as Majora's psyche coming to the front, and the Moon itself was the mask adding a sense of total nihilism to the Skull Kid's loneliness since that is the ultimate end to everything and is always lonely "every one dies alone" as it goes, and there's no hope after that.
My only question is if this tries to retcon the Fierce Deity's origin or if the manga remains the only general "hint" of where both powerful masks originated from.
There's an old manga that shows the origin of Majora, and the Feirce Deity is the one who seals the immortal being in that mask. Majora resents that god, and it makes sense for him to have that be his "villain" as Majora sees you if you enter the battle wit the mask. Its also fitting that you completely decimate Majora as he lost that fight before, and simply loses it again.
Link is led to Termina by Skull Kid/Majora, Link and the Happy Mask Salesman are both "outsiders" that arrive/are in Termina but are not part of its regular flow. I never thought it was Link's dream/fever dream/lapse before death, since it all exists before he arrives. I was always under the impression that Link arrives *in* Skull Kid/Majora's little dream of nightmares. The fact that the HMS is in Termina *before* Link and he's most certainly a real person led me to always assume that the story cannot be coming from Link's psyche. Link is in a play and Majora is the director, and he much more easily fits that role than Link would, especially since Majora is effectively omniscient in Termina as one would be if they were the creators of the play. Majora sees it as a game (probably in part from the Skull Kid overlap on the mask) and he's the game master.
Everything in the world is framed on the Skull Kid's mental state of loneliness. Everyone is either alone, dead/haunted by loneliness and failure (and as such obviously alone), in an unrequited love, etc, its all about the same state of loneliness. The moon is also under the control of the Skull Kid/Majora.
Where I thought that broke down was the Moon. The inside of the Moon always stuck out to me as Majora's psyche coming to the front, and the Moon itself was the mask adding a sense of total nihilism to the Skull Kid's loneliness since that is the ultimate end to everything and is always lonely "every one dies alone" as it goes, and there's no hope after that.
My only question is if this tries to retcon the Fierce Deity's origin or if the manga remains the only general "hint" of where both powerful masks originated from.
There's an old manga that shows the origin of Majora, and the Feirce Deity is the one who seals the immortal being in that mask. Majora resents that god, and it makes sense for him to have that be his "villain" as Majora sees you if you enter the battle wit the mask. Its also fitting that you completely decimate Majora as he lost that fight before, and simply loses it again.
WrenchNinja
Member
Being a parallel world doesn't make it not real. Being a dream and fiction created by another character does.
ArchedThunder
Banned
The Zelda manga aren't canon.
The Fierce Deity was always reflective of Link's own inner demon ("Fierce Oni"). Majora gives it to Link after he has explored the world enough and made the sacrifices necessary to demonstrate his own self-reflection, in order to be on equal footing due to the mask's impish, sadistic playfulness. But while Skull Kid lost control of his inner demon, Link has enough control to use its power against Majora and seal it.
That's how I interpret it anyway.
Ahh, I always thought the Majora manga was rather perfectly. But this is a different manga from the "Zelda" manga, this is a really old off-shoot that only existed for that story.
Still I don't doubt it not being canon.
AlexFlame116
Member
If I recall correctly, one of the creators who worked on the game (can't recall if it was Aonuma or Iwata) said that the Fierce Diety's Mask represented the thoughts and feelings of the people of Termina combined into one. Plus the Oni can also be a fierce looking spirit but be good as well.
In Majora's point of view though the Fierce Diety is the villain while she (I imagine Majora as a female) is the good guy. That's why the bad guy runs and doesn't win.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Yeah, I mean any way you want to explain it, MM is kind of a questionable part of the overall story anyway. It's almost like a really awesome ROM hack/remix.
I don't think Nintendo sees a difference between 'parallel world', 'dream world', 'alternate dimension', etc, and neither do I. Termina was always a strange bizarro dimension that only Link, Skull Kid and the Mask Salesman could escape. It was real to them and they will remember what happened there.
Fuck me, I'm 12 and this is deep.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Not really. For all we know Hyrule is the dream world of some greater being. It's all relative, and in a world with all the crazy things Zelda has, it's not even completely unlikely
MrSaturn99
Member
I always knew it was a parallel dimension but I'm not a fan of this. 
Just have it be a kooky alternate reality!
Just have it be a kooky alternate reality!
fabricated backlash
Member
Zelda fan theories are a special circle of hell.
Exactly like Koholint (tho the windfish was actually sleeping), what im saying is when people's imaginations go out of control it's real danger to link.
And I think it's fine to leave that is rather than retcon it out. It was a weird parallel universe, we don't need to think about it too much.
chrisPjelly
Member
WrenchNinja
Member
Yeah really. Being Skull Kid's dream (ugh) and saying the dream fades away makes it, hey, not real. I don't care about what ifs.
That's your and Nintendo's problem then, because there's a pretty clear difference between an alternate universe and a temporary world created by a power crazy child.
UnemployedVillain
Member
This is kind of an odd thing to say. Why does a series need a conclusion? Will the world and its inhabitants cease to exist at that point? There can always be more stories told in a series, especially one that isn't constrained to the exact same character and doesn't have to worry about said character getting old and dying
At first I was OK with most of this, but the more I think about it, the less I like it. Makes it feel like nothing you did in Termina mattered, except maybe stopping the Moon from falling, and even that's only if the damage would've carried over to Hyrule through the dimensional portal-or-whatever in Lost Woods. Feels like they're coming up with stuff that's different from the original intention in order to have something new to write about and sell the book.
.
I used to read word up magazine
Salt 'n' Pepper and Heavy D up in the limousine
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
I always knew it was a parallel dimension but I'm not a fan of this.
Just have it be a kooky alternate reality!
Same, it just seems like they decided to rip off (old Zelda spoiler, thought I might as well hide it)
Link's Awakening's
Link's Awakening
you're not getting it, like Link's Awakening, this doesn't mean it was a fake adventure, it just means a character's mind made a place that didn't exist before manifest into reality.
This was always the original intention, this is not new. Termina was always a Wonderland-esque bizarro-dimension that reflected the melancholic aspects of Link and the Skull Kid. Once the adventure ends and Link, Skull kid and the Mask Salesman leave, it was always impossible for them to return. Termina was never a 'real' place like Lorule or the Twilight Realm.
You are making up rules that don't exist. Termina is a temporary, alternate universe full of sad, twisted memories from Link and Skull Kid's lives. That's it.
TwilightPrincess
Member
Not really. It's not a simple dream, it was created by the magic of the mask. Skullkids "Dream" got real through magic. That doesn't mean it never existed or wasn't real in the Zelda universe.
Bjoern the Smexy
Member
Doesn't sound to me like it was all a dream (like Link's Awakening), but that Termina simply was some kind of "other dimension", created by Skull Kid with the power of Majora's Mask.
The events in there were still real, even though the people weren't.
It's real in the sense that Link and Skull Kid (and probably even the Happy Mask Salesman) will still remember what happened there.
That isn't really as much a retcon as it is actually is clarification on the events what lead to Majora's Mask and what happened after it.
I can live with that, actually.
The events in there were still real, even though the people weren't.
It's real in the sense that Link and Skull Kid (and probably even the Happy Mask Salesman) will still remember what happened there.
That isn't really as much a retcon as it is actually is clarification on the events what lead to Majora's Mask and what happened after it.
I can live with that, actually.
Holy Order Sol
Member
I don't have any problem with this.
Serenitynow
Member
Wait, so this Encyclopedia is like an updated Hyrule Historia? I hadn't heard of it...
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
Yeah, I especially dislike the "it fades away at the end of the game" point, since that is kind of the biggest slap in the face to the player, who just spent the entire game saving these people. Again, comparing to
Link's Awakening
Imagine if Wind Waker was retconned and it turned out that the Great Sea was actually a dream of the King of Red Lions or Ganondorf, and once you beat him the world reverts to the default Hyrule just after the credits end. That'd be some BS. It'd be alright if the game led up to that point naturally and let the player ponder it in game like
LA
It seems very much likely Aonuma doesn't really keep a strong handle on the side lore things such as this, and wasn't able to or didn't care to stop this borderline fan fiction from being printed. It just seems like whoever wrote this was trying to tie up loose ends when they didn't need to, and made Majora's Mask's world much less interesting in the process (if we choose to believe this).
It really comes off like their thought process was "how do we strip away every setting that isn't Hyrule" and not, "what was the original intention and can I expand on it". I mean just Aonuma's comments about the Fierce Deity Mask being an embodiment of the will/feelings of the people of Terminal alone contradicts this, since by this explanation they wouldn't have any.
Making another comparison with another Zelda game, what if the Twilight Realm was really just Midna's imagination, and as soon as the game ended
she and it ceased to exist
ArchedThunder
Banned
Kinda, just came out in Japan, we'll probably get it near the end of the year.
WrenchNinja
Member
I'm not making up any rules. You're just conflating two different things.
Yes, really. As it's not real with the defeat of Majora.
Did you really think that Termina was a real place? That there just happened to be a secret land (within the Lost Woods) with almost identical inhabitants to Hyrule who were completely ignorant of the world outside Termina? It was always a strange dream world. Whether it fades away or not is meaningless, Link can never go back anyway.
Valkyri von Thanatos
Member
Real in the sense that it had a history and a future, yes. I got the impression that getting lost in the Lost Woods could lead to stumbling into alternate worlds. I don't see why it couldn't have been an alternate world that existed before and after Majora's Mask. Where did Majora's Mask come from anyways?
If you have a source from late 90s or early 2000s, I'd love to see it. I just remember Nintendo saying it was a parallel world.
I'm reading the thread linked in the OP, and apparently this book is mostly written by Nintendo Dream (basically Japanese Nintendo Power), but they were counselled by Nintendo, although they did still apparently take some liberties with the lore. For now it seems impossible to know if this particular info is directly from Nintendo or something Nintendo Dream people came up with.
The book is still being published by Nintendo, though, if that matters to you.
Edit: Hyrule Historia was directly from Nintendo, btw.
That would make me mad honestly lol because i have a Midna tattoo, cuz she was such a awesome character. Imo that would ruin the whole character development for her and the Twilight Realm is cool peacefull Dark Interlopers.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Finale Fireworker
Member
If George Lucas had taught me anything, it's that you can own a property and still be wrong about it.
It being a dream is an unacceptable retcon which I will not accept. Parallel world fantasy world, yes. Meaningless dream, no.
It being a dream is an unacceptable retcon which I will not accept. Parallel world fantasy world, yes. Meaningless dream, no.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Or maybe BOTW is all a dream while in the sleep bath and the goal to win is to let ganon die of old age while keeping link the same age, technically letting him "win".
The source is the game. You are beaten over the head with the Alice in Wonderland setting when Link literally falls down a hole into an alternate dimension in the first 5 minutes. Is Wonderland real? Or is it all in Alice's head? To Alice and the reader it doesn't matter, same with Majora's Mask.
All the strange alternate dimensions in Zelda are parallel worlds. Some are fleeting dream worlds like Koholint Island and Termina. Some are permanent realms like Lorule and the Twilight Realm. In Nintendo's eyes they all fall under the umbrella term of "parallel worlds". They are real to Link which is all that matters.