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[Koren]

It's like the anti Trump as far as negotiating is concerned : no show but some substance.

Thing is, I fear that presidency is far more about show than substance... :/

Not only for the election, but even once you're elected...

 

[Kilrogg]

So many voters and FI members in particular are such drama queens. How hard is it to accept "it's either A or B and I think A is preferable", it's not a betrayal of any value, just making a responsible choice.

The FI guy in the video did sound a bit like a drama queen, or more specifically, he had this "holier-than-thou" attitude about him. He kept saying "we were right all along". Still, he said he's voting for Macron anyway.

Their poll for their supporters had three options "Macron", "neither", and "no vote".

You won't have more, it would be political suicide.

Yeah, I saw that video. And you're probably right.

You'll be disappointed. He'll stay silent, I can take the bet.

He want some success in the june elections.

Oh, I won't be disappointed, really. I'm not part of FI. I voted for Macron in the first round because I was so afraid of a MLP vs. Fillon or MLP vs. Mélenchon scenario (for the record, I would have voted for either ; for me, it will always be "anyone but Le Pen" until someone even worse comes along). It'll just fuel my fears that MLP might win this. I don't like some people's overconfidence about the results of the upcoming vote.

 

[KingSnake]

Well, I don't think that's true... At best, he's ambivalous on the matter, but he has always been a strong LePen opposition. The problem is, they want to keep their momentum for the following elections in june.

If Le Pen wins the presidency a good part of JLM voters (the ones in favour of leaving EU and protectionism) will shift to FN in June, just because she will be in position to do things compared to JLM.

As I said several times already, JLM and MLP are actually competing heavily on the same demographic.

He doesn't have to say "vote Macron". he can say "make anything possible, as much as your principles let you to not have MLP elected" and also say that his fights continues in June. He could actively campaign for June already going after MLP voters. By telling the truth that actually a lot of those economic issues are rather solved by government and parliament than the president.

Unless of course he also thinks that going out of EU is worth it despite Le Pen.

 

[Addi]

I checked Macron's discussion with the whirlpool workers (the entire thing is on his Facebook page) and damn, I'm pleasantly surprised. I don't think I have seen a politician do something like that. He seems weak on speeches, but face to face he is really tough. Extremely detailed, pragmatic, no big false promises and not getting stepped on, but still respectful. You might not agree with him ideologically, but this was class compared to Marine's shitty media stunt.

 

[Kilrogg]

I checked Macron's discussion with the whirlpool workers (the entire thing is on his Facebook page) and damn, I'm pleasantly surprised. I don't think I have seen a politician do something like that. He seems weak on speeches, but face to face he is really tough. Extremely detailed, pragmatic, no big false promises and not getting stepped on, but still respectful. You might not agree with him ideologically, but this was class compared to Marine's shitty media stunt.

Not commenting on Macron one way or the other, but about that last part: everything is a class act compared to people like Marine Le Pen... Well, except her father, that is. He was even worse (though probably more intelligent/educated than her in some ways). Populism is never a class act. It's just selfies and empty statements.

 

[Magni]

Well, I don't think that's true... At best, he's ambivalous on the matter, but he has always been a strong LePen opposition. The problem is, they want to keep their momentum for the following elections in june.

Even if it may be the moral thing to do, it's pretty much useless: among their voters, people that prefer Macron will say "it's sad he doesn't say clearly that we should vote for Macron", but they'll still support Macron.

People that they took from LePen won't vote for Macron because Mélenchon clearly rallies Macron. But they may loose them back to FN.

In short, an official support for Macron will probably do nothing for next week, but will probably have the consequences of MORE vote for FN (instead of Front de Gauche) in june's elections. Tha'ts both backfiring AND putting them in a worse shape in june.


See how it killed Bayrou in 2012 for expressing his mind clearly... I doubt he changed the mind of more than a handful of its voters, and he sure angered a LOT more of them, and lost their support basically forever.

It's quite simple for him to do what Fillon and LR did.

"We're anti-Le Pen [he's been quite clear about this, which is what makes his silence so incomprehensible to my eyes], therefore, vote against her next Sunday - vote Macron - but then vote FI in the legislatives so we can have a say in government."

How is calling people to vote against Le Pen for president and then vote FI for the legislatives gonna alienate people from his party? Unless, the insoumis are closer to Le Pen than to Macron. And if so, that's on him. He set himself up for this, what with his constant diabolization of Macron during the campaign. He spent more time attacking Macron than Le Pen (and it probably cost him the second round).

Regarding Bayrou in 2012: Bayrou was a centrist, so his support was split between center-right and center-left; of course choosing Hollande was going to anger the center-right supporters.

Mélenchon has to choose between endorsing the center or the extreme-right. Not comparable IMO.

 

[Sinsem]

How is calling people to vote against Le Pen for president and then vote FI for the legislatives gonna alienate people from his party? Unless, the insoumis are closer to Le Pen to Macron.

Come on, that's again insulting. We want neither of them. Yes, one is worst, but the second is still terrible. Voting Instruction won't change that. At best that won't change anything, at worst, people are going to get mad and some who were willing to vote Macron will abstain.

I hate the guy honestly, i'll vote for him and it will cost me. But the hard part is really reading you guys, you just don't understand.
Let us make peace with it, and we'll vote.

 

[Addi]

Not commenting on Macron one way or the other, but about that last part: everything is a class act compared to people like Marine Le Pen... Well, except her father, that is. He was even worse (though probably more intelligent/educated than her in some ways). Populism is never a class act. It's just selfies and empty statements.

Haha, of course, that goes without saying. The difference was just huge and I don't think a lot of other politicians would have done as Macron did (some politicians to the left probably could, but then they would be more "one of them" and the discussion wouldn't have been as heated).

 

[Kilrogg]

Come on, that's again insulting. We want neither of them. Yes, one is worst, but the second is still terrible. Voting Instruction won't change that. At best that won't change anything, at worst, people are going to get mad and some who were willing to vote Macron will abstain.

I hate the guy honestly, i'll vote for him and it will cost me. But the hard part is really reading you guys, you just don't understand.
Let us make peace with it, and we'll vote.

I'll be the first to say I was probably being a bit of a dick on social media following the results, arguing with people on Facebook about why I thought they shouldn't abstain - to be fair, some of them were also obnoxious about the way they phrased it - but in the end you're probably right. It's not a good strategy to shame people into voting. If anything, it might strengthen people's resolve to abstain. The Mediapart video touches upon that subject. Let people come to grips with the reality of the situation like adults instead of jumping on them for daring to hesitate between someone awful and someone less awful but still pretty damn bad in their eyes. We've still got two more weeks to change our minds anyway.

 

[KingSnake]

Come on, that's again insulting. We want neither of them. Yes, one is worst, but the second is still terrible. Voting Instruction won't change that. At best that won't change anything, at worst, people are going to get mad and some who were willing to vote Macron will abstain.

I hate the guy honestly, i'll vote for him and it will cost me. But the hard part is really reading you guys, you just don't understand.
Let us make peace with it, and we'll vote.

This is not about you, it's about Melenchon.

I can understand your struggle, since you fought the whole campaign against Macron (wrongly, if you ask me, as the chance of Melenchon was to beat Lepen, not Macron, but that's another discussion). So I can understand it's very difficult to accept now the situation.

Melenchon on the other hand is supposed to be a political leader, to inspire and lead. He still have a fight to do in June. He needs to act as a responsible person, not as an ultras. A political leader needs to be able to act also when the situation is not favourable, not just run into hiding until it goes away just because the options on the table are not ideal.

 

[Green Yoshi]

Are the Parti Socialiste and Les Républicains willing to support Macron after he will have beaten Le Pen, too? Or will they try anything to prevent his re-election as Republicans in the USA did after Obama was elected?

 

[Oreiller]

Are the Parti Socialiste and Les Républicains willing to support Macron after he will have beaten Le Pen, too? Or will they try anything to prevent his re-election as Republicans in the USA did after Obama was elected?

I don't know about the PS but I guess LR are going to try to win the legislative elections to put Macron in a cohabitation.
It's hard to tell though, since the juppéistes are pretty close to Macron on pretty much every point.

 

[Koren]

If Le Pen wins the presidency a good part of JLM voters (the ones in favour of leaving EU and protectionism) will shift to FN in June, just because she will be in position to do things compared to JLM.

While true, they don't think a single second that MLP has the slightest chance. The gap is huge.

And honestly, I really, really doubt that any official position from JLM as any power to swing votes.

It's quite simple for him to do what Fillon and LR did.

"We're anti-Le Pen [he's been quite clear about this, which is what makes his silence so incomprehensible to my eyes], therefore, vote against her next Sunday - vote Macron - but then vote FI in the legislatives so we can have a say in government."

How is calling people to vote against Le Pen for president and then vote FI for the legislatives gonna alienate people from his party? Unless, the insoumis are closer to Le Pen than to Macron.

Well, a double-digit percentage are. That's actually the problem.

I believe it to be a minority, but not something he can affort to lose.

Mélenchon has to choose between endorsing the center or the extreme-right. Not comparable IMO.

From his personal point of view, I agree... I hope it's as clear-cut for him, even if he dislike Macron a lot.

But it's all policital agenda. He reached 20% with a lot of voters taken from FN.


At the end of the day, I'm not even sure that those official, strong positions against FN are even good. It fuels the idea that MLP is fighting against an established system, and I'm pretty sure a huge majority of voters won't blindly follow such a recommandation, anyway.

Are the Parti Socialiste and Les Républicains willing to support Macron after he will have beaten Le Pen, too?

Definitively not. In fact, I don't doubt that a large chunk of Macron's voters will want to vote against him as soon as june.

I'm waiting for the details on programs of each side, but I'll probably do it myself.

I dream that Macron candidates don't have a majority, but actually do what was promised by MoDem in 2007: have deputés that vote depending on what they think best, siding with right or left for each specific question. I want to believe that the system CAN work with a swinging center.

 

[Koren]

I don't know about the PS but I guess LR are going to try to win the legislative elections to put Macron in a cohabitation.

They'll fail, but I'm not sure they actually aim for this.

The probably hope that there's no majority, and both right and left will propose to team together. Their aim is to prevent Em marche to reach a majority.

If En Marche isn't getting a majority by itself, I can't see them teaming with either right or left, it would be a trahison of the original idea.

In this case, we'll get something new. Either it works (if you don't see a systematic opposition from left and right) or it fail miserabily and we're stuck for a couple years... 49.3 isn't even a sure thing.

Other possibility, surfing on the fact that both right and left are in bad shape and fragmented, and the "etat de grace", En Marche actually get its majority. Probably neither right nor left want this.

 

[Magni]

Come on, that's again insulting. We want neither of them. Yes, one is worst, but the second is still terrible. Voting Instruction won't change that. At best that won't change anything, at worst, people are going to get mad and some who were willing to vote Macron will abstain.

I hate the guy honestly, i'll vote for him and it will cost me. But the hard part is really reading you guys, you just don't understand.
Let us make peace with it, and we'll vote.

What's so insulting? Are you not all adults, if you can vote? You don't always get what you want. I didn't get what I wanted last time around. Life would be a lot simpler if everyone agreed and we all always got what we wanted, but that's not how it works.

I think a lot of insoumis drank the kool-aid too much and thought that, a) not only were they going to win, but that b) if they lost, France was done for.

As a Macron voter, of course I thought he was going to win*, but I nevertheless prepared for all the outcomes where he didn't. I knew who I would vote for, regardless of whether it was Fillon vs Le Pen, Mélenchon vs Le Pen, or Fillon vs Mélenchon. When your candidate was always polling out of the top two, I think not stopping to think of a second round without him was a bit short-sighted. It's not an exclusive thing, you can hope for your candidate to win and still at the same time prepare for the case where he doesn't.

I think point b) from above was crucial in leading to the current situation. Mélenchon has worked up the insoumis bubble in a frenzy over Macron, for months. Remember the whole #ToutSaufMacron thing? He dug himself into a hole, and he brought you all in there with him. So now everyone thinks he's the devil who's going to be worse for France than Reagan and Thatcher combined. It's crazy. And it's frightening.

I'll be the first to say I was probably being a bit of a dick on social media following the results, arguing with people on Facebook about why I thought they shouldn't abstain - to be fair, some of them were also obnoxious about the way they phrased it - but in the end you're probably right. It's not a good strategy to shame people into voting. If anything, it might strengthen people's resolve to abstain. The Mediapart video touches upon that subject. Let people come to grips with the reality of the situation like adults instead of jumping on them for daring to hesitate between someone awful and someone less awful but still pretty damn bad in their eyes. We've still got two more weeks to change our minds anyway.

It took a lot of willpower to not troll people on FB earlier this week. After all the crazy propaganda I saw in the weeks leading up to the election, I really wanted to post some "ready to be adults now?" type posts, but I didn't. Of course, after that initial 24h silence, it's back to the "two sides of the same shit coin" junk now. And that goes back to Mélenchon ("entre le pire et ceux qui font le pire").

Thankfully, my less vocal JLM-voting friends pulled a 180 after that. They're as disappointed in him as my center-right friends were with Fillon when Penelope-gate happened. (come to think of it, there's some parallels between those that stuck with Fillon to the end and those that are now sticking to #ToutSaufMacron to the end).

* Of course pretty sure everyone except Hamon voters (and the jokesters who voted Poutou, Lassalle, etc) thought that.

 

[fantomena]

Sad.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN178061

 

[Sinsem]

What's so insulting? Are you not all adults, if you can vote? You don't always get what you want.

Can you stop being so patronizing?
Because that's exactly what I'm complaining about.
I'm well aware I don't get what I want, thank you.

I guess it's a bit different for the 30% of 18-24 for whom it was probably the first presidential election. But do you honestly think that everything that is said since sunday is helping anyone?

I think point b) from above was crucial in leading to the current situation. Mélenchon has worked up the insoumis bubble in a frenzy over Macron, for months. Remember the whole #ToutSaufMacron thing? He dug himself into a hole, and he brought you all in there with him. So now everyone thinks he's the devil who's going to be worse for France than Reagan and Thatcher combined. It's crazy. And it's frightening.

What's hard to understand there? We're anti-liberal and he's a liberal. Of course it's frightening for us when he propose to bascially keep going with what was done in the previous presidency. I can see you were not there in France during the Loi Travail strikes, because it was everything but fun & good times. Police brutality has never been so crazy, rights are trampled under an emergency state that certainly won't stop with Macron. Yes we think he is dangerous, and yes we do believe that the FN will come out of these 5 years at least as strong as today.
Is it a reason to vote FN, no, never.
Is it a reason to be mad because we don't have any desire to make that choice, yes it is.


The mediapart live from yesterday linked earlier summarize really well the situation, I don't think there is much more to be said than sharing this video. If you can't understand that, there is really nothing more to be said sadly.

 

[azyless]

Sad.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN178061

What is so sad about wanting Assad out ? It's not like he wants to go at it alone and without a plan à la Trump.

 

[ebil]

I just wish people would stop intantilizing each other on the social media, it only helps pissing them off even further. Mélenchon voters are adults, they can decide by themselves, and most of the ones who don't want to see the whole system crash and burn will probably make peace with it by the 7th and still vote. People targeting them instead of targeting Le Pen are targeting the wrong enemy.

I'm going to jinx it but

Spoiler

I'm really not sure that Macron even needs one quarter of them to win, he literally got everyone else.

 

[Magni]

Can you stop being so patronizing?
Because that's exactly what I'm complaining about.
I'm well aware I don't get what I want, thank you.

Sorry, my words were a bit harsh. I guess I'm being patronizing, but you're being a drama queen, so we're both a little bit at fault

edit: you here not meaning you personally Sinsem, but the insoumis in general.

What's hard to understand there? We're anti-liberal and he's a liberal. Of course it's frightening for us when he propose to bascially keep going with what was done in the previous presidency. I can see you were not there in France during the Loi Travail strikes, because it was everything but fun & good times. Police brutality has never been so crazy, rights are trampled under an emergency state that certainly won't stop with Macron. Yes we think he is dangerous, and yes we do believe that the FN will come out of these 5 years at least as strong as today.
Is it a reason to vote FN, no, never.
Is it a reason to be mad because we don't have any desire to make that choice, yes it is.

I was in France during the strikes actually, they almost derailed my wedding. Only one guest had their train not get canceled. My mother-in-law and sister-in-law had to spend a night at the airport because their train, the last of the day, got canceled. Fun times indeed.

I'm not the strongest fan of the emergency state, but there's a difference between that and police brutality. The case can be made for the former, never for the latter. And I don't see the link between the emergency state, police brutality, and support for the FN.

The mediapart live from yesterday linked earlier summarize really well the situation, I don't think there is much more to be said than sharing this video. If you can't understand that, there is really nothing more to be said sadly.

I listened to the debate while working this morning. I certainly didn't agree with their full take on the situation, but at least they mostly (all?) agreed that one was better than the other. Equating Macron and Le Pen is dangerous and intellectually dishonest (I'm not saying you are doing that, I'm saying some insoumis are - and Mélenchon himself is not helping on that front, quite the opposite).

fake edit:

Remember the whole "Hamon and Mélenchon are the same, they should band together" ?

 

[Cabaratier]

The foreign press (Dutch, US, UK) are being fucking awful in their coverage of the Whirlpool 'event'. Stupid headlines and comments about Macron being outmatched and outpaced by Le Pen's parking lot stunt, with maybe 2 lines somewhere at the end about 'oh yeah Macron actually stayed and seriously debated with the workers". And now meeting with union bosses, the actual employee representatives, is like meeting with a bunch of billionaire shareholders or something. The unions can never ever get good press.

 

[Simplet]

Like I told my insoumis friend, even fucking Fillon had the courage to tell his supporters that to defend the values he believes in, he had to vote Macron against the FN. And some of his voters are probably actual FN supporters!

Is "he's going to piss off is supporters" the best excuse you've got? You're going to accept that even Fillon has more political courage than him? That's... I don't even think disappointing is strong enough a word.

 

[Sinsem]

I'm not the strongest fan of the emergency state, but there's a difference between that and police brutality. The case can be made for the former, never for the latter. And I don't see the link between the emergency state, police brutality, and support for the FN.

That's on me, I throwed a lot of different subjects in the same sentence, I'll try to be more clear.
I think we saw a bit too much abuses recently coming from an alleged left governement. I have not seen anything reassuring on that side with Macron. Between the emergency state and its abuses, and the way the Loi Travail strikes were handled, I'm not confident for the next conflict, which will happen sooner or later when Macron will try to push for work flexibility.

Regarding the FN, it's a different thing. Nothing that was done recentlyy helped fight the FN. Screaming "Front Republicain" on TV at every election is useless if the same people are not willing to fight it on an everyday basis. Macron does not propose anything different, so I fail to see how it can at least slow down the support.
We saw some usal strong FN places won by the FI, so I believe it's a better direction.

I listened to the debate while working this morning. I certainly didn't agree with their full take on the situation, but at least they mostly (all?) agreed that one was better than the other. Equating Macron and Le Pen is dangerous and intellectually dishonest (I'm not saying you are doing that, I'm saying some insoumis are - and Mélenchon himself is not helping on that front, quite the opposite).

Yeah, I know that some insoumis think that, and I'm as baffled by it as you are.
I juste disagree on Mélenchon stance. Him calling to vote Macron will not help. You'll have his own "Everything but Lepen" before may 7th though.
Journalists are making his silence an event were there is not, and it's creating general hysteria.
Why are you even waiting for the vote instruction of someone you did not vote for is beyond me.

 

[Koren]

I juste disagree on Mélenchon stance. Him calling to vote Macron will not help.

I agree...

- That won't change a lot of votes of FI supporters, and if it does, I'm not sure it'll be in favor of Macron, some supporters will just get mad at being told what they should vote

- That will make FI weaker for the june elections, and probably mechanically make FN stronger in june

As far as I would like him to say something like "there's bad and there's something we just should refuse" from a "philosophical" point of view, I'm convinced it would be useless at short term, and counter-productive in june.

 

[Funky Papa]

Jean-François Jalkh has some interesting opinions to voice, it seems.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Sad.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN178061

1.000 % better than the fascist stance of Mélenchon on this issue.
His position on Syria was the main reason i didn't vote for Mélenchon, i am glad that France will likely maintain an active posture against Assad regime.

 

[Simplet]

Regarding the FN, it's a different thing. Nothing that was done recentlyy helped fight the FN. Screaming "Front Republicain" on TV at every election is useless if the same people are not willing to fight it on an everyday basis. Macron does not propose anything different, so I fail to see how it can at least slow down the support.
We saw some usal strong FN places won by the FI, so I believe it's a better direction.

This is complete sophistry, how is Macron not proposing anything different? His policies are different than the socialists and the Républicains in how they're combined together, but obviously he's not trying to overturn the current political order. If he did, he would either be on the extreme to the left or to the right, so basically you're saying that he either needs to become Le Pen or Mélenchon to beat Le Pen, that's great insight!

Yeah, I know that some insoumis think that, and I'm as baffled by it as you are.
I juste disagree on Mélenchon stance. Him calling to vote Macron will not help. You'll have his own "Everything but Lepen" before may 7th though.
Journalists are making is silence an event were there is not, and it's creating general hysteria.
Why are you even waiting for the vote instruction of someone you did not vote for is beyond me.

Because among all the candidates, only Dupont-Aignan has the same position. It's shameful.

 

[Oreiller]

Yeah, I know that some insoumis think that, and I'm as baffled by it as you are.
I juste disagree on Mélenchon stance. Him calling to vote Macron will not help. You'll have his own "Everything but Lepen" before may 7th though.

As someone who voted for him (I wouldn't call myself an insoumis though), I'm disappointed and quite baffled that he still hasn't done his "everything but Le Pen" yet.
I'm not asking for a "consigne de vote" or anything. I don't need him to tell me how to vote and, as you said, it would probably make some of his supporters mad. Still, his silence about Le Pen is not helping anyone, and might be hurting FI's image outside of his base. I dunno, that's how I feel about this mess anyway.

 

[EmiPrime]

Le Pen's replacement as FN leader 'questioned existence of gas chambers'

Marine Le Pen’s replacement as acting leader of Front National during the final days of her French presidential campaign is facing criticism over past statements he made apparently questioning the existence of Nazi gas chambers.

“I believe we should be able to discuss this issue [of gas chambers],” Jean-François Jalkh, who was nominated interim president of the far-right party after Le Pen’s decision to stand aside, reportedly told an academic in an interview in 2000.

In comments unearthed by a journalist at La Croix newspaper and republished in Le Monde, Jalkh, an MEP, argued he was not a Holocaust denier but had spoken to a chemistry expert about Zyklon B, which was used in the extermination chambers.

“I consider that from a technical standpoint it is impossible – and I stress, impossible – to use it in mass exterminations. Why? Because you need several days to decontaminate a space … where Zyklon B has been used.”

but but but... Macron is a former banker.

 

[Palette Swap]

Jean-François Jalkh has some interesting opinions to voice, it seems.

You can move all the deniers, neonazis and collaborationists to the back, they're still there.

 

[jack_package_200]

Sad.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-idUSKBN178061

This is bad because?

 

[Sinsem]

As someone who voted for him (I wouldn't call myself an insoumis though), I'm disappointed and quite baffled that he still hasn't done his "everything but Le Pen" yet.

But why? I mean, we all know it's coming. The campaign team already did it. What's the point of being the first one to rally the Front Republicain?
He's juste the perfect escape goat for the press right now, which is a bit sad since during the campaign I followed he did not pull any punches against Le Pen. He did not against Macron either.

You said it yourself, it's a mess, wait for things to cool down a bit and focus on the Macron vs Le Pen campaign.

you're saying that he either needs to become Le Pen or Mélenchon to beat Le Pen, that's great insight!

What I'm saying is that I don't think a neoliberal can succesfully fight the FN yes. I believe the best shot we have is with the left (call that extreme or far left if you want, doesn't matter), the FI was first in a lot of cities that usually are pro-FN.

 

[Herb Alpert]

Jean-François Jalkh has some interesting opinions to voice, it seems.

yeah, ask him about "zykon B" (sic)

Good old FN, never change

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

yeah, ask him about "zykon B" (sic)

Good old FN, never change

The good part is that FN is always it's own best enemy. Dropping the "Vel d'Hiv" line 15 days before the election was epic. No possible political gain from this but still... she had to do it.

 

[Koren]

Because among all the candidates, only Dupont-Aignan has the same position. It's shameful.

Only Dupont-Aignan in the Top6?

I think Artaud called for "blanc", Poutou said Macron wasn't the answer, I can't see Asselineau calling for Macron either even if I haven't heard about him...


Well, if you say that among Fillon, Mélenchon, Hamon and Dupont-Aignan, "only" Mélenchon and Dupont-Aignan have the same position, well, that's 2 out of 4.

And, curiously (or not), that's the two that probably have the most supporters that could easily go back to FN.

 

[Magni]

^ I mean, Poutou, Arthaud, Assélineau, etc are all joke candidates. There's a reason they get shit for votes. If Mélenchon wants look like a joke candidate like the rest of them, that's on him. But it's disappointing that someone in which nearly 20% placed their trust would treat MLP being in the second round this way though.

That's on me, I throwed a lot of different subjects in the same sentence, I'll try to be more clear.
I think we saw a bit too much abuses recently coming from an alleged left governement. I have not seen anything reassuring on that side with Macron. Between the emergency state and its abuses, and the way the Loi Travail strikes were handled, I'm not confident for the next conflict, which will happen sooner or later when Macron will try to push for work flexibility.

There will definitely be a conflict between workers and Macron when he pushes for changes to the labor law. I'm hoping that it'll be better than in the past - since I'm hoping that he learned from the mistakes of the 2016 law. I see those changes as necessary, not as the end of the social welfare state, so that's where I differ with a lot of insoumis.

Regarding the FN, it's a different thing. Nothing that was done recentlyy helped fight the FN. Screaming "Front Republicain" on TV at every election is useless if the same people are not willing to fight it on an everyday basis. Macron does not propose anything different, so I fail to see how it can at least slow down the support.
We saw some usal strong FN places won by the FI, so I believe it's a better direction.

Regarding the FN, Macron was the candidate who attacked MLP and the FN the most this election. Fillon and Mélenchon were attacking Macron and giving up MLP in the second round as a given.

I see support for the FN as coming from two places mainly, bigotry, and economic anxiety (same as Trump) - and while the former will be hard to fight, once again I'm hopeful that things will improve on the latter. I don't expect Macron (or anyone for that matter) to fix all of France's problems in five years, but a significant decrease in the unemployment rate coupled with a significant increase in purchasing power/quality of life would do wonders to reduce the FN's power. And of course, an annihilating defeat of the FN in the second round would also help on that front (MLP kicked out, followed by bitter infighting).

Yeah, I know that some insoumis think that, and I'm as baffled by it as you are.
I juste disagree on Mélenchon stance. Him calling to vote Macron will not help. You'll have his own "Everything but Lepen" before may 7th though.
Journalists are making his silence an event were there is not, and it's creating general hysteria.
Why are you even waiting for the vote instruction of someone you did not vote for is beyond me.

I don't need someone to tell me who to vote for, and I certainly don't expect people who voted Mélenchon last Sunday to need that either. I just see it as normalizing Le Pen (as if she weren't normalized enough). That's where the issue is for me, not that it'll lead to Le Pen winning or anything like that (though it certainly doesn't help on that front).

I don't think Macron needs Mélenchon's votes to win, but it's just bad taste/disappointing/whatever you want to call it that he can't bring himself to say Macron is preferable to Le Pen. I also don't think it's doing him any favors for the legislatives. He might keep a hold on the radicals, but he's losing the more moderate members of his electorate.

I agree...

- That won't change a lot of votes of FI supporters, and if it does, I'm not sure it'll be in favor of Macron, some supporters will just get mad at being told what they should vote

- That will make FI weaker for the june elections, and probably mechanically make FN stronger in june

As far as I would like him to say something like "there's bad and there's something we just should refuse" from a "philosophical" point of view, I'm convinced it would be useless at short term, and counter-productive in june.

And that's where we disagree. On the first point, while it might make some mad, it'd help with those that are currently disappointed (do they even out? no idea); and on the second, as I said above I think this weakens his position for June.

The radicals were always going to be with him, but the more moderate members of the left that might have been drawn to him will be more likely to see him as a intransigeant guy that's full of himself.

As I said in the days leading up to the vote, anecdotally I saw a lot of moderate left-leaning voters decide to vote for him in spite of his European views, and this is just sort of the thing that might push them away from him and his movement. And for those that bailed out just before the vote, this behavior has comforted them in thinking they made the right choice, which certainly won't help in bringing them back in June.

 

[Simplet]

What I'm saying is that I don't think a neoliberal can succesfully fight the FN yes. I believe the best shot we have is with the left (call that extreme or far left if you want, doesn't matter), the FI was first in a lot of cities that usually are pro-FN.

Right, but if we follow your reasoning to the end, it goes like this:

1 You can't vote for candidates who don't propose anything "new", because they're not stopping the FN from expanding.

2 "New" means something else than the normal mix of free market capitalism and moderate state interventionism that has been the basis of democratic states for centuries, so either the far left or the far right.

3 People obviously can't vote for Le Pen because she's a crazy racist.

4 The only choice then is to vote for the far left.

Basically you've created a great system in your head where to save our democracies from a minority (20-25%) of people on the extreme right, the only rational choice is to vote for another candidate who wants to destroy the system. And that candidate just happens to be the one you're voting for.

So we can only save our democratic system by destroying it, and everyone who doesn't vote for your candidate of choice is helping the FN, how convenient. And you're so sure that voting Macron is only going to help the FN in the future that you don't care if Mélenchon is helping the FN right now. Looks to me like a lot of mental gymnastics.

Only Dupont-Aignan in the Top6?

I think Artaud called for "blanc", Poutou said Macron wasn't the answer, I can't see Asselineau calling for Macron either even if I haven't heard about him...


Well, if you say that among Fillon, Mélenchon, Hamon and Dupont-Aignan, "only" Mélenchon and Dupont-Aignan have the same position, well, that's 2 out of 4.

And, curiously (or not), that's the two that probably have the most supporters that could easily go back to FN.

Fillon probably has more supporters leaning toward the FN than Mélenchon, and you don't see him hiding behind the "people have to make up their own minds" excuse.

 

[Sinsem]

So we can only save our democratic system by destroying it, and everyone who doesn't vote for your candidate of choice is helping the FN, how convenient.

What the?
No, I don't believe in this system.
Yes, I want another one.

The rest is you own bullshit, and I won't even try to discuss that with you since your mind is already made up and you're not even trying to have a debate here.
So far on this thread I've been able to debate with a lot of people I don't agree with and it's been going great all things considered. Everyone knows we're not convincing anyone of anything, but at least we're able to understand & respect each other a minimum. I enjoy confronting my views with other's, but sorry, not like this.

 

[Oreiller]

But why? I mean, we all know it's coming. The campaign team already did it. What's the point of being the first one to rally the Front Republicain?
He's juste the perfect escape goat for the press right now, which is a bit sad since during the campaign I followed he did not pull any punches against Le Pen. He did not against Macron either.

There are several reasons for that. It feels like he is putting ordoliberalism and fascism on the same level, which contributes to the normalisation of the FN. It feels like a "sectarian" move aimed only at his base, which seems hypocritical considering he frames himself as representing the people as a whole. It also makes him look as a sore loser, which is baffling since his results are pretty amazing all things considered.

The thing is that I agree with you, we need a real polarisation on the left to neutralize the FN. FI's success should be the perfect opportunity to do so but this sectarian move might drive away his voters who usually vote PS or Les Verts, and I don't think a polarization is going to be possible without them.

I may be overanalizing though, this is just my gut feeling after all.

 

[fantomena]

This is bad because?

It's just going to make things worse. What good has come out western intervenions in the middle-east? Nothing.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

It's just going to make things worse.

Doing nothing is also making things worse. At this point, whatever position you hold on Syria is meaningless because all of the options are fucking garbage so don't even try to take some kind of high ground. Intervention sucks, doing nothing sucks, supplying "moderate rebels" sucks, supporting Assad sucks. Also, they got a refugee crisis to deal with in Europe as a result so saying "not my problem" isn't going to work either.

 

[fantomena]

so don't even try to take some kind of high ground..

Oh I will. Im against intervenion in Syria. Fuck that. I would rather want more humanitarian support.

 

[Koren]

^ I mean, Poutou, Arthaud, Assélineau, etc are all joke candidates. There's a reason they get shit for votes. If Mélenchon wants look like a joke candidate like the rest of them, that's on him. But it's disappointing that someone in which nearly 20% placed their trust would treat MLP being in the second round this way though.

I was only reacting to the "Because among all the candidates, only Dupont-Aignan has the same position. It's shameful.".

I mean, you could talk about the Fillon call for Macron by saying "Because among all the candidates, only Hamon has the same position."

The fact that I agree with clear calls against FN doesn't mean that I think "only" fits here, when you have 4 candidates, 2 having a behavior, 2 having another...

 

[Magni]

Ah right, yeah the original post you quoted could have been phrased better. "above the major candidates, he's alone in not calling to vote against MLP". Or "among the other candidates who ever had a chance to reach 5%, only NDA is not joining the Republican Front".

Poutou & Co were certainly candidates, but that's about all they were.

Oh I will. Im against intervenion in Syria. Fuck that. I would rather want more humanitarian support.

How are you going to do that when humanitarian convoys get attacked by both sides?

Nevermind the whole taking the moral high ground part by assuming you're the only who wants more humanitarian support. Are you for real?

 

[azyless]

It's just going to make things worse. What good has come out western intervenions in the middle-east? Nothing.

We're talking about getting the power out of the hands of someone who bombs his own people with chemical weapons here, not the USA looking for some mythical weapons of mass destruction.
How worse can it get for Syria at this point ?
Besides, it's not like he just wants to get Assad out and fuck out of there, he mentioned making sure that the country could go on on their own afterwards, specially regarding Daesh.
But I feel like it's damned if we do damned if we don't anyway.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Oh I will. Im against intervenion in Syria. Fuck that. I would rather want more humanitarian support.

How charmingly ignorant.

 

[Reneledarker]

It's just going to make things worse. What good has come out western intervenions in the middle-east? Nothing.

Yeah, the way the West intervenes in the Middle East just creates more problems. That strategy of destabilizing a State by removing their leader just do not works, it creates a bigger conflict by creating a power vacuum and allowing different groups to fight for power. Same as the war against drugs and how they operate by removing cartels leaders. That strategy just does nor work. Look at Yemen, Syria, Libya, Irak, Afghanistan, a mess. If the west really wants to help the people on those States they need to develop a reconstruction plan to rebuild and let the people there govern themselves. If the West continues to destabilize States in the Middle East the refugees crisis is going to become so great that Europe and the Middle East would not be able to contain it. Just look at the situation of Lebanon and Jordan. The amount of Syrian refugees is putting those State to the brink of collapse. If the West wants to do something it should start by helping refugees and resolving the problems they have inside their own States.

 

[azyless]

If the west really wants to help the people on those States they need to develop a reconstruction plan to rebuild and let the people there govern themselves.

That is... what Macron talked about.

If the West wants to do something it should start by helping refugees and resolving the problems they have inside their own States.

So Europe isn't doing anything for refugees now ? Got it.
I don't even know what problems we're supposed to be fixing and how that could be relevant here.

 

[fantomena]

How charmingly ignorant.

Sure.

 

[Simplet]

What the?
No, I don't believe in this system.
Yes, I want another one.

The rest is you own bullshit, and I won't even try to discuss that with you since your mind is already made up and you're not even trying to have a debate here.
So far on this thread I've been able to debate with a lot of people I don't agree with and it's been going great all things considered. Everyone knows we're not convincing anyone of anything, but at least we're able to understand & respect each other a minimum. I enjoy confronting my views with other's, but sorry, not like this.

What? I don't understand what you're trying to say. I've apparently offended you but I'm not sure how? (and sorry if that is the case)