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PAL CHarts - Week 39, 2008

CrunchinJelly

formerly cjelly
Yeah, I was talking UK.

I'm only really using Tesco as my guide, though. When I went in on Friday they had twice the number of 360 copies to PS3 in their display (2 rows to 1 row), when I went in later to get another copy they'd sold out of both.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Your "logic" said very little about the significance of the boost except to say that "logically" the Wii would get the biggest boost when in fact that wasn't true and probably wouldn't have even been true had shortages not been a problem. What I agreed with was that the possibility of a boost could exist on certain Nintendo systems, even if it has virtually no impact on the numbers. Look, I'm saying that you either stop right there with that point or take the point to its natural conclusion and go through a full examination of the numbers. What you do is take something unsubstantiated and make a big deal about it under the guise of common sense. Bullshit. The burden of proof exists with the one who is making the claim. Proof being the operative word. If you're going to talk about possibilities, then you can get away with throwing out a hypothesis. But if you're going to say that it is significant, then you need to delve deep into the logic of the situation.

You haven't even said why this one factor is more important than all of the other factors so much that it alone is the sole reason why Nintendo products supposedly get a boost when they do (and it supposedly doesn't effect your little hypothesis when they don't), and that right there invalidates the entire claim. If you don't try to prove why this factor is so important that it can shift the numbers, then who knows how significant it really is. Your logic did nothing to prove that the Wii would have a significant bump. If this was common sense, it would have happened. And before you object about shortages invalidating the entire thing, let's extrapolate for this Christmas. Assuming that the Xbox 360 sells as much this holiday as it did last, the Wii would have to sell an average of 2.6 million in order to match it. That's not just December. That's an average over November and December, and that's with a badly shortage constrained January. Remove January and it rises to 2.8 million. We're talking December sales in excess of 3 or 3.5 million. And with the way the Wii is selling, that might be possible if they get consoles out, but that's just to match the 360's holiday growth. If it's such common sense, then why are the numbers so much of a reach? Why does it not bare itself out all the time? You can't say that there are other factors and then say that this is common sense because those factors make this issue far more complex than simple common sense allows. And if you're not going to turn to the numbers, then all it remains is a hypothesis without any proof.

Why should all of November count when all of November isn't a holiday? That makes no sense. There isn't any perfect solution since we don't have pre and post Thanksgiving numbers, but counting all of November does obfuscate the point further.

Not all price drops are equal. In fact, the Gamecube did get a bigger boost during the 2003 holidays, where as the Xbox remained flat and the PS2 actually dropped compared to the prior year. Obviously the price drop did have an impact and invalidates that year. There is also one full Gamecube year that does contradict your point, so already you're down to two years. Regardless, this is why your methodology sucks. You practically throw out any holiday that doesn't prove your point because suddenly it's tainted by other factors such as with the Wii. But any other year proves your point without examining all of the variables? Console sales are made up by ever shifting factors. If I posit a reasonable explanation of why things turned out the way they did, why should that have less credence than your children explanation? Common sense? Bullshit. My explanations can make complete logical sense. Without any real proof, they're all explanations that might or might not be true.

As for the DS, I never said that it had anything to do with the Lite. I said that the Lite resulted in one surge. What I am saying is that year after year the DS gains more and more momentum. In the first ten months of 2007, the DS sold an average of 440k. The DS then saw a really nice percentage increase of 4.5x. However, the DS continued that momentum and increased the rate to 540k per month. If you use that number instead, then its percentage increase would have been the exact same as the PSP. The DS had a February 2008 that was basically bigger than anything in 2007 outside of the holidays, and its March was record breaking (it had a few more months like that too). If the rates only increased during the holidays, then it's merely isolated to the holidays. But if the holidays lead to an even bigger year, then perhaps the holidays are subjected to the same factors that led to the big 2008. This logic depends on what happens this holiday. If the combined November and December are in excess of 4.5 million, then the DS simply performs better during the holidays, and we can then discuss whether you have a point. If it's under 4.5 million, then it will probably line up with the 360's expected numbers. If it flatlines, then it will probably be at least on the levels of the PSP.

I'm willing to change my theory if it doesn't work out. I altered my theory when I looked really hard at the DS vs. PSP numbers. I'm not necessarily trying to destroy your hypothesis from the ground level. I am asking you to provide some rational explanations for why you think you're correct. Common sense might cut it in your own mind, but on any logical level, no rational person is going to accept that as an answer. I don't give a damn if for some reason this all turns out to be true. Anyone should be willing to amend his beliefs. I am questioning your dubious line of thinking. If it does turn out to be true, then it will be true despite your arguments.
 
Why are you arguing with doicare? It's completely pointless. He's not going to give up on his position, even if you had square 100% proof. Go do something less aggravating, or more constructive, and if seeing him sets you off so much, just use that dandy little ignore button. It'll be better for everyone.
 

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
I think it's mildly entertaining. If people gave up because of irrationality, then most arguments wouldn't happen and no one would debate with creationists. Half the fun of a debate is finding the irrationality in the other point, especially when they won't admit it. It makes me think that much harder.
 

doicare

Member
Mgoblue201 said:
Your "logic" said very little about the significance of the boost except to say that "logically" the Wii would get the biggest boost when in fact that wasn't true and probably wouldn't have even been true had shortages not been a problem. What I agreed with was that the possibility of a boost could exist on certain Nintendo systems, even if it has virtually no impact on the numbers. Look, I'm saying that you either stop right there with that point or take the point to its natural conclusion and go through a full examination of the numbers. What you do is take something unsubstantiated and make a big deal about it under the guise of common sense. Bullshit. The burden of proof exists with the one who is making the claim. Proof being the operative word. If you're going to talk about possibilities, then you can get away with throwing out a hypothesis. But if you're going to say that it is significant, then you need to delve deep into the logic of the situation.

You haven't even said why this one factor is more important than all of the other factors so much that it alone is the sole reason why Nintendo products supposedly get a boost when they do (and it supposedly doesn't effect your little hypothesis when they don't), and that right there invalidates the entire claim. If you don't try to prove why this factor is so important that it can shift the numbers, then who knows how significant it really is. Your logic did nothing to prove that the Wii would have a significant bump. If this was common sense, it would have happened. And before you object about shortages invalidating the entire thing, let's extrapolate for this Christmas. Assuming that the Xbox 360 sells as much this holiday as it did last, the Wii would have to sell an average of 2.6 million in order to match it. That's not just December. That's an average over November and December, and that's with a badly shortage constrained January. Remove January and it rises to 2.8 million. We're talking December sales in excess of 3 or 3.5 million. And with the way the Wii is selling, that might be possible if they get consoles out, but that's just to match the 360's holiday growth. If it's such common sense, then why are the numbers so much of a reach? Why does it not bare itself out all the time? You can't say that there are other factors and then say that this is common sense because those factors make this issue far more complex than simple common sense allows. And if you're not going to turn to the numbers, then all it remains is a hypothesis without any proof.

Why should all of November count when all of November isn't a holiday? That makes no sense. There isn't any perfect solution since we don't have pre and post Thanksgiving numbers, but counting all of November does obfuscate the point further.

Not all price drops are equal. In fact, the Gamecube did get a bigger boost during the 2003 holidays, where as the Xbox remained flat and the PS2 actually dropped compared to the prior year. Obviously the price drop did have an impact and invalidates that year. There is also one full Gamecube year that does contradict your point, so already you're down to two years. Regardless, this is why your methodology sucks. You practically throw out any holiday that doesn't prove your point because suddenly it's tainted by other factors such as with the Wii. But any other year proves your point without examining all of the variables? Console sales are made up by ever shifting factors. If I posit a reasonable explanation of why things turned out the way they did, why should that have less credence than your children explanation? Common sense? Bullshit. My explanations can make complete logical sense. Without any real proof, they're all explanations that might or might not be true.

As for the DS, I never said that it had anything to do with the Lite. I said that the Lite resulted in one surge. What I am saying is that year after year the DS gains more and more momentum. In the first ten months of 2007, the DS sold an average of 440k. The DS then saw a really nice percentage increase of 4.5x. However, the DS continued that momentum and increased the rate to 540k per month. If you use that number instead, then its percentage increase would have been the exact same as the PSP. The DS had a February 2008 that was basically bigger than anything in 2007 outside of the holidays, and its March was record breaking (it had a few more months like that too). If the rates only increased during the holidays, then it's merely isolated to the holidays. But if the holidays lead to an even bigger year, then perhaps the holidays are subjected to the same factors that led to the big 2008. This logic depends on what happens this holiday. If the combined November and December are in excess of 4.5 million, then the DS simply performs better during the holidays, and we can then discuss whether you have a point. If it's under 4.5 million, then it will probably line up with the 360's expected numbers. If it flatlines, then it will probably be at least on the levels of the PSP.

I'm willing to change my theory if it doesn't work out. I altered my theory when I looked really hard at the DS vs. PSP numbers. I'm not necessarily trying to destroy your hypothesis from the ground level. I am asking you to provide some rational explanations for why you think you're correct. Common sense might cut it in your own mind, but on any logical level, no rational person is going to accept that as an answer. I don't give a damn if for some reason this all turns out to be true. Anyone should be willing to amend his beliefs. I am questioning your dubious line of thinking. If it does turn out to be true, then it will be true despite your arguments.

Just when i think you can't churn out the same tired and failed points as last time which i have already answered you do it again. I was originally talking about uk sales then because certain people had a problem with common sense i had to include more and more data from around the world until i came to bringing up the gamecubes sales in america. It's a fact the wii had significant shortages in america last christmas, so saying the wii last year doesn't fit my theory when you know the reason why goes beyond stupidity. The bottom line is you will never know what the wii sales might have been without shortages so saying it wouldn't have made the sales anyway without shortages is just plain idiotic. In my opinion the wii would have sold atleast the extra 781,000 to beat the 360's % increase over november and december had there not been shortages and as i've already said the ps3's holiday boost happened because of a price cut so you can't directly compare the wii to the ps3's sales. This year provided the supply is there the wii will have the highest holiday boost compared to the ps3 and the 360 and the ds will have the higher boost compared to the psp, but we'll have to see what the numbers are when they come in to discuss that point any further.

You keep going on about proof and there is only so many times i'm going to kindly tell you that with the data we have available it is impossible to provide conclusive proof and there's only so many times i'm going to tell you the data i have provided is inconclusive so saying 'a ha the data you've provided isn't good enough' is just moronic when you provide no better data yourself. Just because i can't 100% prove what i am saying is right doesn't make me wrong and when you can't even come close to providing as much 'inconclusive' data to counter what i say then have no leg to stand on.

If you want to talk about this years up coming holiday numbers then this is what they are because your numbers are wrong. So far this year the consoles have averaged:

x360 - 218,000
ps3 - 253,000
wii - 561,000

Taking last years 360 holiday boost of 293% the wii would have to sell 4.41m over november and december to beat that. Now 4.41m might sound like a big number but when you take into account that the ps2 in it's peak holiday year of 2002 managed to sell 4.0m and far more consoles are being brought now then they were 6 years ago and the wii is selling significantly faster the ps2 did, provided the supply is there this year 4.41m is entirely possible.

All of november counts because people buy presents for up coming holidays. Just because most of november itself isn't a holiday doesn't change the fact that sales increase due to people buying presents in advance. Do you seriously think that novembers sales are equal to that of the rest of the non holiday year accept for the last few days of month when thanksgiving takes place?!? :lol

I'm sorry you don't like it when i explain why certain years can't be counted due to price drops effecting sales but the facts are the facts, without those price drops happening the sales would have been dramtically different. As for the ds i understand what you are saying but until what you think might happen actually happens you haven't proved me wrong. And all the ds has to do this year is beat the psp's sales increase for me to be right which again i think is almost a certainty.

My explanation of why i think sales are what they are is listed in my 5 point theory, which you continuously fail to answer. The numbers i've provided are inconclusive because we don't have the full numbers to work with. Like i've said before just because i can't 100% prove i'm right doesn't make me wrong especially when you can't provide any better data then what i have.
 
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