• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Paradox on Obsidian's RPG: "everyone was hoping would do better"

Tyranny barely had any marketing. Also in the case of Wasteland 2 and Tides of Numenera there were significant issues with both games leading to lower than expected sales.

Is there a market for these type of games? Absolutely. Look at how well Divinity: Original Sin sold or at Pillars of Eternity. The Shadowrun games were a commercial success as well I believe.
 

Lister

Banned
Why bother with the headache? You are simplifying the process and underestimating the effort and manpower it would take to pull this off. Most PC games are sold on Steam. They get a cut. They are a business that runs on 30% profit margins. Keep it simple.

Because it promotes the paltform.

Why does Sony bother with Studios like Naughty Dog and with contracts the likes of which bring about Bloodborne?

Why don't they "keep it simple" and never do that?

Because it WORKS to get people talking about Sony, at the very least. It also gets more eyeballs on their storefront, and more people on their hardware.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Because it promotes the paltform.

Why does Sony bother with Sutiods like Naughty Dog and with contracts the likes of which bring about Bloodborne?

Why don't they "keep it simple" and never do that?

Because it WORKS to get people talking about Sony, at the very least. IT also gets more eyeballs on their store front, and more people on their hardware.

Valve doesnt care about any of that. They have PC gaming pretty much on lockdown with very little effort so why bother?
 
I mean... as great as Tyranny's setting is, I don't understand why Paradox has treated it like another grand strategy game; it shouldn't be a content platform, but a full game in itself. Don't end with a cliff-hanger and don't rely on polishing mechanics via expansions--you've gotta get it right the first time to properly enrapture customers. This means giving Obsidian the time do to it right.

In terms of marketing, the one game the article dances around mentioning--Divinity: Original Sin--set the standard for smaller-scale RPGs when it provided revolutionary gameplay with exceptional polish. It was something people couldn't help but talk about, which made its low marketing budget (IIRC two web ads somewhere) turn into a tide of positive word of mouth. Tyranny couldn't match this because its standout feature--the story--ends with a whimpering cliffhanger.

Like, I never ended up beating it, but hearing everyone that finished it grumble about its cliffhanger ending (missing a third act, they say!) is just downright discouraging. It kills word of mouth positivity when you have to give a heartfelt recommendation with a huge caveat at the end.


Tthat said, the pitch of a "modular RPG" has a lot of merit, I just don't think it actually works for a commercial project. It's more like the Bethesda take, where every add-on is actually a free mod and not something the developer actually profits from.
 
I wonder what this means for that Vampire Bloodlines project that seemed to be in the pipeline

Unfortunately it looks like the timing was a coincidence. An Obsidian employee late last year stated they were not working on a Vampire game. Boyarsky says they have a new IP cooking.

There probably is a vampire game cooking, but not with Obsidian. A wewwolf game has been announced from the Styx developers.
 

Com_Raven

Member
Because it promotes the paltform.

Why does Sony bother with Sutiods like Naughty Dog and with contracts the likes of which bring about Bloodborne?

Why don't they "keep it simple" and never do that?

Because it WORKS to get people talking about Sony, at the very least. IT also gets more eyeballs on their store front, and more people on their hardware.

Yes, because it gets you to buy Sony's hardware. Which Valve doesn't do (anymore? At all? Whatever happened to Steam Boxes anyways?).

And to make royalties from sold games, which Steam already does in a dominant position on the PC market.And if you look at the performance of these big AAA games, you will see that more often that not, they only sell a fraction of their console sales on the PC, as the latter has a more diverse range of genres, business models and audiences (take a country like China where PC gaming is huge, but no one plays singleplayer games).
 

Lister

Banned
Valve doesnt care about any of that. They have PC gaming pretty much on lockdown with very little effort so why bother?

Because it's good for PC gaming and PC gamers? Because it might be good for them in the long run?

I understand that it's the nature of corporations dominating a market to just sit around with their thumbs up their ass. I'm not disputing that this is the likely course Valve will continue on.

I'm am saying it would be better for us as gamers, and in all likelihood for them as a company too, to invest, a modest amount into "first party" PC games.

Even as an experiment. See what happens. Maybe I'm wrong and it turns out to be nothign but a money sink for them, and a big pile of nothign for us...

OR we could end up with a new set of timeless games that are the equivalent of Baldur's Gate 2, and Half Life 2 and UInrela Tournament, and that will both turn a profit for Valve and promote the platform further.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
That's the thing, they will never have the next SKyrim, if they aren't ever investing in doing so, nto that that would necessarily be the end goal.

I'm nto sure why this is so hard for some people to even get the concept when it comes to PC, but yet it is so obviously understood when it comes to consoles.

Software is what makes hardware paltforms attractive. And POC sure as hell has a lot of great software already, and will continue to, but I think AAA development, subsudized by those who stand to gaint he most from it (like Valve) could only increase interest int he platform.

And even a couple of big AAA budget games would only be a drop in the bucket for someone like Valve. I'm not saying fund 10 The Old Republic MMO's or anything.

I'm pretty sure we all get that. The thing is that in my case I built a PC because I was tired of the console gated environment, wanted to improve the performance of the games I played and because I'm no longer a kid and have the money for it. I don't care about exclusives or whatever. I mean probably a lot of people do for MMO but I doubt it's the number one factor for most people.

The reason you have fewer PC exclusives is also because of the specs. Most people don't have a PC that runs at acceptable performance the big AAA releases. Valve doesn't need to push gaming PC with exclusive either, they get 30$% of everything sold through steam no matter who is the publisher.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Because it promotes the paltform.

Why does Sony bother with Sutiods like Naughty Dog and with contracts the likes of which bring about Bloodborne?

Why don't they "keep it simple" and never do that?

Because it WORKS to get people talking about Sony, at the very least. IT also gets more eyeballs on their store front, and more people on their hardware.

1. Valve is a store. Unlike Sony they don't have to sell you a console. They get you to use their store because of ease of use, availability and branding.
2. Valve has a virtual monopoly on PC games. Most games are on it. Most gamers buy their games exclusively from there.
3. They would have to restructure their company to pull off what you are suggesting. IMO, it is not worth the headache.
4. Why aren't the big 3 doing this already? Especially MS who needs help to promote the Windows store.
 

Effect

Member
Yeah they kinda cop to that in the interview. It doesn't help that they went with the slogan "Sometimes Evil Wins" for a game that released the day after the U.S. election.


Yeah I know. It just seems like the companies have some working differences which is why I made the quip about POE.

Honestly that did stop me from buying. Things were very raw after the election for me and a game with the premise of Tyranny was one of the last things I wanted to touch. I had been looking forward to the game before but the idea of it hit to close. I want to eventually get it though.
 

water_wendi

Water is not wet!
Because it's good for PC gaming and PC gamers? Because it might be good for them in the long run?
i agree with you but its not something Valve would ever do. The only thing Valve needed for the long term was time and they have already hit the threshold long ago where most people are too invested in the platform to ever leave it regardless of how horrible things get. Valve seems to not want to have anything to do with the games they host unlike other publishers. They take their 30% and they are good.
 

Lister

Banned
Yes, because it gets you to buy Sony's hardware. Which Valve doesn't do (anymore? At all? Whatever happened to Steam Boxes anyways?).

And to make royalties from sold games, which Steam already does in a dominant position on the PC market.And if you look at the performance of these big AAA games, you will see that more often that not, they only sell a fraction of their console sales on the PC, as the latter has a more diverse range of genres, business models and audiences (take a country like China where PC gaming is huge, but no one plays singleplayer games).

Let's be clear here, when I say AAA I mean budget and marketing wise, NOT in terms of your typical AAA console titles - which are mostly (with some great exceptions), on rails, action adventure games with lots of climbing and fixed "cinematic" narratives. You're right, most PC gamers aren't interested, and those that are are probably fine with all the multiplatform games along those lines.

I'm talking about PC-ass PC games (for lack of a better term ;) ) but without the usual limits on budget and team sizes that they typically get.

I'm talking about an Obisidan RPG with the narrative agency and rich lore/charcters that they do so well, but without having to be build with < 5 million dollar budgets. I'm talking about A player Unkowns Battlegrounds, with only the jank that gives it it's charm, but not the kind that makes the game frustrating or feel low budget. I'm talking about a Stellaris or Mordhau with more refinement and polish that only bigger budgets and bigger teams could produce.
 
to me what separates tyranny/tides from divinity original sin, is an actual combat engine.

If I wanted to play an adventure game, I would play an adventure game. in both tyranny and tides combat felt like an afterthought , this is especially true in tides, which might as well have been a point and click adventure game.

if any good comes out of this is that I will never see another unity engine RPG,.
 

dude

dude
I really hope Obsidian doesn't go the D:OS route. I much preferred PoE to D:OS, in basically every aspect :/
 

Lister

Banned
to me what separates tyranny/tides from divinity original sin, is an actual combat engine.

If I wanted to play an adventure game, I would play an adventure game. in both tyranny and tides combat felt like an afterthought , this is especially true in tides, which might as well have been a point and click adventure game.

Yeah A lot of peple praise dTrynnay's combat in the OT and I really didn't get it. It was derived form Pillars, but I liked Pillars combat a lot more.
 

Anno

Member
I really hope Obsidian doesn't go the D:OS route. I much preferred PoE to D:OS, in basically every aspect :/

I think there will be room for both a RTwP and a turn based game. Both raised more money their second time around in crowd funding and they're the two of these games that did really well to begin with.
 

Hitmeneer

Member
It's s shame, but Tyranny was for me personally a big let down. I bought it directly at release, but after two hours I gave up due to the boring combat. I know that the story and choices were the main focus point, but I couldn't get around the horrible combat. I think tyranny also did not get good word to mouth, likes PoE and as a result just got some initial sales due to hype and after that practically nothing. PoE kept on selling steadily for a year.
 
I didn't buy Tyranny because by all reports, it simply wasn't very good.

To be honest when you talk about the CRPG revival the only half decent one to date has been Pillars and sort of the Shadow run games. This hasn't turned me off the genre, I'll always love it, but it has made me very wary of any purchases after discarding efforts like D:OS and Wasteland 2 very quickly.
 

Com_Raven

Member
I didn't buy Tyranny because by all reports, it simply wasn't very good.

To be honest when you talk about the CRPG revival the only half decent one to date has been Pillars. This hasn't turned me off the genre, I'll always love it, but it has made me very wary of any purchases after discarding efforts like D:OS and Wasteland 2 very quickly.

That seems to be more down to your personal preference then? Cause by all review accounts, Wasteland 2, Divinity, Tyranny and Torment are certainly not half bad games...

Divinity especially was very well received across the board, and both it and Wasteland 2 seem to have done very well for their respective developers as well.
 

diaspora

Member
I liked Tyranny but I'm not going to lie, I'd prefer to experience most of Obsidian's efforts on the go- either on my Surface or Switch.
 
Software is what makes hardware paltforms attractive. And PC sure as hell has a lot of great software already, and will continue to, but I think AAA development, subsudized by those who stand to gain the most from it (like Valve) could only increase interest in the platform.

And even a couple of big AAA budget games would only be a drop in the bucket for someone like Valve. I'm not saying fund 10 The Old Republic MMO's or anything.

You're right but Valve clearly doesn't want to do that. They're happy with their share of the market and don't seem to be interested in going after the console market.
 

Atolm

Member
I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable about the CRPG scene (I was around during the post-BG2 boom, played the first Fallouts and Planescape...) and last year I finished Divinity EE on Tactician and yet I've barely heard, seen or read anything about Tyranny. It kind just flew by.
 

Lime

Member
Unfortunately it looks like the timing was a coincidence. An Obsidian employee late last year stated they were not working on a Vampire game. Boyarsky says they have a new IP cooking.

There probably is a vampire game cooking, but not with Obsidian. A wewwolf game has been announced from the Styx developers.

Damn thanks for the news. It would've been a really good match and I'm sure they would've garnered a lot of crowdfunding if they had gone that route
 

nynt9

Member
They definitely need to improve their gameplay if they're hoping for a breakout hit. And nostalgia aside, I do think turn based systems are a better fit for their smaller RPGs than RTwP is.

I think turn based is tedious garbage in a large scale RPG. You end up wasting so much time on trash encounters. Torment claimed they would solve this issue by clever TB encounter design but the combat was still awful.
 

Alexious

Member
1. Valve is a store. Unlike Sony they don't have to sell you a console. They get you to use their store because of ease of use, availability and branding.
2. Valve has a virtual monopoly on PC games. Most games are on it. Most gamers buy their games exclusively from there.
3. They would have to restructure their company to pull off what you are suggesting. IMO, it is not worth the headache.
4. Why aren't the big 3 doing this already? Especially MS who needs help to promote the Windows store.

Microsoft is clearly the perfect fit. They are in desperate need of studios who know what they are doing and they can provide them with a budget to develop a triple A RPG like The Witcher 3 as well as QA to help squash those nasty Obsidian bugs. Make it PC/XB exclusive and the folks will come to Windows Store and Xbox One.
 
Tyranny was disappointing in ways in that it came out of nowhere as somebody said in this thread already, and it played a lot like PoE. There's also the fact they changed skills into cooldowns with no friendly fire, and when I played the game myself, there was too much reading and backstory long before the game gets going. The character creation takes you through walls of texts but you can't really piece together what's truly happening since you have little to no context about what a lot of it even means. Then you're thrown into more reading and dialogue and scripted fights, the game felt quite shallow despite the tons of lore.
 
Unfortunately it looks like the timing was a coincidence. An Obsidian employee late last year stated they were not working on a Vampire game. Boyarsky says they have a new IP cooking.

There probably is a vampire game cooking, but not with Obsidian. A wewwolf game has been announced from the Styx developers.

We asked them about that too - https://www.pcgamesn.com/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-sequel

Cheers for posting, Alexious. This made me pretty sad too. I think Tyranny's brilliant, and thought decent reviews (metacritic 80, very positive on Steam), Paradox + Obsidian name would carry it. I disagree with people saying it had no marketing. Plenty of previews, streams before release. Saw a few ads, certainly memorised the tag lines, and not just because I was writing about it.
 

Nairume

Banned
Microsoft is clearly the perfect fit. They are in desperate need of studios who know what they are doing and they can provide them with a budget to develop a triple A RPG like The Witcher 3 as well as QA to help squash those nasty Obsidian bugs. Make it PC/XB exclusive and the folks will come to Windows Store and Xbox One.
The funny thing is that Tyranny was salvaged from a failed publishing contract with Microsoft to begin with.
 
*snip everything you've said in the thread so far*

Valve isn't structured as a PC games publisher. Publishers aren't just moneybags. They have a ton of support teams working to maximize the potential of their investments. They have PR teams, marketing teams, QA/CS support teams, developer support teams (including design, art and engineers), financial departments, legal teams, production assistants, and a laundry list of third party companies who offer a plethora of services to their first party studios.

Valve doesn't have that structure, even as developer who self publishes, they still rely on outside help from publishing partners for much of the above. Building that structure is an incredible investment of not only money, but also time, people and expertise.

Valve doesn't have the same investment return as a hardware manufacturer. They don't need to bring people to the PC platform because they don't sell hardware. And they don't need to bring people to the Steam storefront because they already have a soft monopoly on digital distribution of PC games. First party games from console manufacturers are often not very profitable themselves. Even when a first party title is wildly successful, it will still make less money than a multi-platform release simply due to the limitations of releasing on a single platform. This risk is offset by the hardware manufacturer by the increased hardware sales said first party title may generate. Console manufacturers are willing to make less profit per individual game (even sometimes take an overall loss) if it moves more hardware units to end users, generating a larger user pool. Because console manufacturers aren't only making money on each individual hardware unit sale - they also profit from licensing fees for each game released on their platform as well. So, they have double the motivation to move units - both from a direct sales perspective and from making their platform appealing to third parties to gain licensing fees and have better negotiating positions for exclusive content.

Valve has neither the offset of hardware sales or the offset of licensing fees to reduce the risk of taking on the role of a first party publisher.

Valve makes substantially more profit from being a storefront with substantially less risk than they do from being a developer or publisher. You asked how anyone would know their ROI would be low unless they tried. Well, they have tried. Valve has a storied history of acquiring products, often in various states of completion, for exclusive release on Steam. And the biggest reason you've seen a dramatic slow-down of that type of development and acquisition is that... the Steam store makes more money with basically zero risk. Valve has shown they have very little interest in taking on major risks anymore. Everything they've done for the better part of a decade has been to move away from risk and liability (moving all of their systems onto the users) and focusing on tried-and-true sequels and games as a service. And you can't really fault them for doing so because it works. It works really, really well.

Your assumptions about Valve seem based on the idea they want what's best for PC gamers when that's never been demonstrated. A lot of their policy changes appear to benefit their users, but often are a much larger net benefit to their profitability margins. Which, hey, if you can do both, more power to you. But that's given people the idea that Valve will be willing to do the same (do what's best for their users) when it clearly doesn't benefit them financially to do so. And that's never been the case.
 

el3m

Neo Member
I've been a fan of all Obsidians games and this is the first time I've heard about this one. I was very confused when realizing that this game has been out for 6 months. It wasn't really promoted at all if I think.

The market for this type of game definitely peaked with PoE.
 

carlsojo

Member
October 21: Battlefield 1
October 25: World of Final Fantasy
October 28: Titanfall 2 and Skyrim Special Edition
November 4: Call of Duty
November 10: Tyranny
November 11: Dishonored 2
November 15: Watch Dogs 2
November 18: Pokemon Sun & Moon
November 29: Final Fantasy XV

Could they have picked a worse release date? Like I get that the audience for Tyranny is probably not the same as CoD or Titanfall, but with that many AAA games was there even any space for marketing for Tyranny at all?
 

thelatestmodel

Junior, please.
From my perspective, Tyranny just kind of showed up out of nowhere, and the only reason I knew about it was because of an off-hand post here. If they wanted it to sell better, maybe they should have done a better job of promoting it. There's not very much logic to releasing a game into the ether and being disappointed that people don't magically know about it and buy it in droves.

Exactly this. I just heard about it the other week from a friend, it was not promoted very well. Gonna check it out though.

Also I do agree with one of the points raised in the article - the average gaming environment is very different to what it was when Baldur's Gate first came out. Getting distracted while gaming and not getting sucked into the world is a real problem.
 
I think turn based is tedious garbage in a large scale RPG. You end up wasting so much time on trash encounters. Torment claimed they would solve this issue by clever TB encounter design but the combat was still awful.

The solution to that problem is to not have trash encounters, not to wade through them faster. Turn-based is a much better fit for old-school RPGs.
 

Lister

Banned
Your assumptions about Valve seem based on the idea they want what's best for PC gamers when that's never been demonstrated. A lot of their policy changes appear to benefit their users, but often are a much larger net benefit to their profitability margins. Which, hey, if you can do both, more power to you. But that's given people the idea that Valve will be willing to do the same (do what's best for their users) when it clearly doesn't benefit them financially to do so. And that's never been the case.

I don't disagree, but no, my musings and idealism aren't about being naive of Valve and their modus operandi. I absolutley know that corporations like Sony and Microsoft and Valve aren't interested in doing what's best for gamers, or more accurately, they are only insterested in doing that as long as it's doubly good for their profit margins.

I have no allusions as to this being the BEST strategy for Valve. I do think it wouldn't be a bad thing to do, but I agree that it would probably be mostly a "for the gamers" thing and not "For Valve's profit margins thing".

And that's who I'm most concerned about, as a gamer - my fellow gamers. :)
 

Hari Seldon

Member
I bought Tyranny and really wanted to like it because the writing was fantastic, but the combat was just so pathetically bad. I haven't found a game of this new age of iso RPGs that nails both the story and combat to my satisfaction.
 
The genre needs to figure out how to explain itself better and be more user friendly, at least in the beginning. As someone new to it, the initial hump is too much. I had to struggle to get interested in Divinity and DA:O and those are supposably the more user friendly titles. Love both games though, but they are also the only ones that kept me interested. It can't just be about story, the gameplay needs to be engaging cause, as it stands now, they are too dull to keep enough people interested IMO. Dragon Age and Fire Emblem, which I consider really close to these types of games, have both been super successful, so there is potential. Hopefully Divinity II can break into mainstream. If they have a good tutorial and can keep people invested with a good story and fun gameplay, from the very beginning, they will do it, I think. Divinity has the makeup to be a real success. The genre could fire emblem and Dragon Age by bringing wifus, LOL. There is potential, but they need to invest in being more friendly to new comers.
 
Obsidian has to be the most struggling great dev around. They can't catch a break. I thought everything was coming up after South Park, I was so, so wrong.

They're the Western equivalent of Platinum games.

The living tragedies of the gaming world. So amazing, so unknown.

--

Also, another vote for loving Obsidian, never knowing Tyranny existed.
 
While this is true in a sense, it's also not a guaranteed success.

Tyranny is at 175,000 copies sold. Torment: Tides of Numenera is at 109,000 copies activated on Steam, including backers, with "negligable" sales on other digital platforms according to an interview. Even if we imagine the console sales were another 100,000, the successfully kickstarted Numenera, with a lot of hype surrounding it managed to bomb quite hard.
oh, colour me surprised..
I thought numenara would do quite well, especially considering kickstarter..

maybe divinity's larian team has now a better recipe for wrpg then the original "creators" of the wrpg success...

oh well..
I've bought wasteland..
I've bought numenara..
I've bought pillar..
I've bought Tyranny...
so I'm doing my part..

the issue with paradox is that they've become complacent in being dlc-mass producers...
Look a CK2 or EU4..
the games are great, but seriously there are TOO MANY DLC, WAY TOO MANY...
do a season pass or something similar..
this is causing a lot of players like me to drop support towards their product..
It's one thing to have 2-3 exansion (and that's already too many), it's a whole other thing to pump out 10-14 dlc when each costs 1/4 of the original game LAUNCH retail price...
and since there are still a lot of gamers accepting this model, a copy of EU4 with post release support will net them as much as 40 eur (launch) + 5-6 dlc for 10 eur each.. basically 100 eur...
This is MORE than the price of bethesda game+season pass...
and while I like obsidian game, I'm quite hesitant to say that the development cost for say doom or fallout4 are the same of eu4..
 

Alexious

Member
The funny thing is that Tyranny was salvaged from a failed publishing contract with Microsoft to begin with.

I know, but Microsoft's situation is significantly different now. With Lionhead gone they need someone able to reboot an IP like Fable and there is no available studio that could make it better than Obsidian.

Make it a third-person action RPG powered by UE4, with a budget of $80 million like The Witcher 3. I mean, Fable Legends got $75 and had absolutely nothing to show for it; Obsidian knows how to make games with small budgets, which in theory should allow them to optimize even a large budget.
 

Anoxida

Member
The solution to that problem is to not have trash encounters, not to wade through them faster. Turn-based is a much better fit for old-school RPGs.

I agree with the first part. Rpg's has suffered from an abundance of trash encounters for as long as I can remember. It's the reason I gave up on Divinity, which is too bad since it's turn-based done right.With realtime those trash encounters can be over in one spell, but in turn-based it's usually hours of wasted time doing trash encounters every game. I don't think I've ever finished a turnbased rpg actually. It always comes down to the novelty of the fighting wears of mid-game and after that it's just a time slog.

Be it TB or RT, I sincerily hope devs can start thinking about heavily reducing the numeber of fights but increase their length, depth, difficulty and placement instead.


Also, Tyranny is a great game. I prefer it over Pillars actually. Combat is mediocre though.
 

Lime

Member
We asked them about that too - https://www.pcgamesn.com/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-sequel

Cheers for posting, Alexious. This made me pretty sad too. I think Tyranny's brilliant, and thought decent reviews (metacritic 80, very positive on Steam), Paradox + Obsidian name would carry it. I disagree with people saying it had no marketing. Plenty of previews, streams before release. Saw a few ads, certainly memorised the tag lines, and not just because I was writing about it.

Thanks for the link. At least it's not out of the question for both Paradox and Obsidian
 
Top Bottom