My biggest problem with Obsidian's CRPGs is that they look very dated. I loved the idea of Tyranny, but hated the look and couldn't get past it. I love Divinity Original Sin and have already been enjoying what I've played of Divinity 2, and it's in part because they are completely modern takes on the genre. Wasteland and Tyranny just look so ugly to me that I don't want to play them, especially with Divinity being around.
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Paradox on Obsidian's RPG: "everyone was hoping would do better"
- Thread starter Alexious
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I'm shocked that Torment was such a bomb. The original is definitely one of the highest regarded western rpgs in history, what happened with this one?
Are western rpg fans more into production values and sprawling open worlds than storytelling nowadays? Have the mid 90s throwback games run their course?
Are western rpg fans more into production values and sprawling open worlds than storytelling nowadays? Have the mid 90s throwback games run their course?
Eh, people gave Obsidian nearly $5 million to make Deadfire at the same time Tides was coming out. I just think that inXile has done quite a lot to damage their reputation with the niche hardcore base that this kind of game sells to. It also came out in the brunt of Horizon/Switch mania and had little room for press coverage. That's aside from the fact that it's been received kinda poorly on top of that.
Tyranny just felt like an incomplete game past Act 1. The good parts were great, I really enjoy the lore and worldbuilding, but half of the game felt really barebones and limiting. I'm a huge Obsidian fan, and I can't even fully endorse the game. Squandered potential, it could have been something great.
Planescape Torment is my favorite RPG ever. I couldn't even finish Numenara. It was just nowhere near as good while harping the formula.
ikarinokami
Banned
well that's because they keep using that trash unity engine to make these complex games. they either need to make their own engine like original sin or find a better one.
The cuts angered a lot of people and the game released in the middle of like 5 AAA productions and the Switch. Word of mouth was also very poor. I mean, I doubt it was going to sell millions, but they really fucked that one.
Chance Hale
Member
Planescape Torment was never a big seller or runaway hit in the first place so it wasn't like Torment was going to fly off shelves/do insane numbers I feel.
Reviewed very well tho and that's more important than backers being angry over kickstarter cuts which I doubt the masses care about. It's just a limited genre sadly.
And honestly I saw tons of previews of Tyranny at RPS and a few other major sites before release so I can't relate to the lack of marketing that everyone else is stating. Not a daily reader or anything either.
staticneuron
Member
And to hammer this point down, this thread is the first time I have heard of the obsidian game Tyranny. It is a shame it isn't received well but its the truth that it seems as if it wasn't promoted.
I don't know how much Unity has to do with it Some people just don't like 2D prerenders I think. Like if you look at the in game footage they've shown of Deadfire I just can't imagine you think it looks bad unless you just fundamentally don't like that kind of graphical presentation.
Negative word of mouth is the big one, I think. Look at Steam, the review consensus is "Mixed" which is usually a pretty good indicator that a good chunk of players were not happy with it.
I haven't played Numenera but my understanding is that it's pretty disappointing if you expect it to be the spiritual successor to Torment 1 as it was pitched.
Limited genre is definitely part of it but I also think negative Steam reviews from jilted KS backers matter more than you think. A game on Steam that doesn't have a positive review consensus sticks out in a bad way because it's pretty rare. Also, if a game is advertised as "the follow up Torment fans have wanted for 20 years" and then Torment fans say "This game isn't what I wanted at all, don't bother," I think that would definitely change the average steam shopper's perception of the game.
As much as I love CRPGS, blind love for them I think hides the truly outdated features and designs that need to be reconsidered. I have yet to finish PoE, and part of the reasoning is tree constant trash mobs room after room. Obsidian is targeting adults, yes? Then well they need to be more respectful of our time, as I grow older I am more partial to short games that ooze quality rather than overly long games that are spread too thin like PoE.
Dragon Age: Origins was supposed to be the natural evolution of the old infinity engine games, yet neither Bioware nor anyone else capitalized on this idea as Bioware continued to dumb down Dragon Age until it was unrecognizable. I would prefer a shorter, 20-40 hours game that is polished and optimized for quality over an overly long and tedious slog. The Witcher 3 is the only RPG of recent times that has justified its insane length (I have yet to play Persona 5 so I can't speak on that).
I know Obsidian works on a budget so its difficult to have the graphics and voice acting of DA:O, but they could at least slice their game length in half to focus on the UI, combat, music, the writing etc. Even with the writing that is supposedly the highlight of PoE, a lot of the times it feels flowery, purple, tedious and only there to waste my time.
Dragon Age: Origins was supposed to be the natural evolution of the old infinity engine games, yet neither Bioware nor anyone else capitalized on this idea as Bioware continued to dumb down Dragon Age until it was unrecognizable. I would prefer a shorter, 20-40 hours game that is polished and optimized for quality over an overly long and tedious slog. The Witcher 3 is the only RPG of recent times that has justified its insane length (I have yet to play Persona 5 so I can't speak on that).
I know Obsidian works on a budget so its difficult to have the graphics and voice acting of DA:O, but they could at least slice their game length in half to focus on the UI, combat, music, the writing etc. Even with the writing that is supposedly the highlight of PoE, a lot of the times it feels flowery, purple, tedious and only there to waste my time.
Having a good battle system really helps with long RPGs. Divinity OS's story and writing was kinda blah but the battle system was so good that it kept me focused even with the most basic enemies.
I played the first hour or so on console and I was sorta shocked at how much text there was. I really did love those games back in the day, but the abundant text, the terrible controls, and the really dated graphics put the game in the "put on steam wish list" category for me and I returned the game fly copy a day later.
Maintenance
Member
Only if we are talking about combat/gameplay, because the lore / story was garbage.
Torment 2 wasn't good, but hell, recently you could find people saying that Dragon Age Inquisition had "amazing writing". Actual good writing is nearly dead.
I think people are overreacting to the article. It's not Obsidian Games Bomb and They're Going Out of Business. It's an interview with the publisher saying that ONE of those games was a sales disappointment. The other, we know, was a big success. And we know that they are hiring for a larger "multi-platform" game. So can we chill with the "Obsidian needs to do XYZ or they're doomed" chatter?
BolognaOni
Member
Throwback style CRPGs are a bit of a niche market, sure, but PoE and D:OS show that there is still interest in the format, but I do think it's pretty limited, and the market is probably saturated at this point.
In the span of a few years we've gone from not getting any CRPG games to having more on the market than I have time or desire to play. So if it's not a really good example of the genre at this point, I'm likely to skip it.
In the span of a few years we've gone from not getting any CRPG games to having more on the market than I have time or desire to play. So if it's not a really good example of the genre at this point, I'm likely to skip it.
Gormenghast
Member
Yep, exactly this.
This isn't a "genre" issue, this is about copycat titles that barely manage to match games released 10+ years ago.
The ambition just isn't there.
Zap Rowsdower
Banned
Torment 2 isn't as good as Planescape, but the vast majority of RPGs aren't as good as Planescape so I don't think its a fair comparison.
I felt it was real good and worthy enough. It was also pretty memorable when it came to its sidequests. Most of the sidequests in the Sagus Cliffs all end up tying into each other and it turns out they all
Not even Witcher 3 and Planescape itself managed something like that.
I felt it was real good and worthy enough. It was also pretty memorable when it came to its sidequests. Most of the sidequests in the Sagus Cliffs all end up tying into each other and it turns out they all
tie into the main plot super heavily.
It's not even the quantity of text, it's the mediocrity of it. I found myself just skipping descriptions and going through the motions until I just stopped playing from loss of interest.
HashtagLapsed
Member
Tyranny felt half baked in a lot of ways. Edict effects felt tacked on and uncreative in the end. Some choices were just smoke and mirrors. I enjoyed the game quite a bit though and will pick up the expansion. I really liked Pillars but I still need to finish it.
Divinity OS is still my favorite out of the lot, with Shadowrun Dragonfall and Hong Kong following closely behind. It doesnt surprise me OS 2 had a successful KS campaign.
Everything I heard about Numenera was disappointing. I think negative word of mouth really hurt that game and inxile will struggle with KS projects going forward.
Its hard to write everything as the nostalgia well being dry. If someone makes a CRPG that looks unique and interesting Im sure there will be interest.
Divinity OS is still my favorite out of the lot, with Shadowrun Dragonfall and Hong Kong following closely behind. It doesnt surprise me OS 2 had a successful KS campaign.
Everything I heard about Numenera was disappointing. I think negative word of mouth really hurt that game and inxile will struggle with KS projects going forward.
Its hard to write everything as the nostalgia well being dry. If someone makes a CRPG that looks unique and interesting Im sure there will be interest.
Gormenghast
Member
I still believe that the tradition was built on top of Pen & Paper, and if you brought that in modern times it would be a smashing success.
Make a good CRPG that implements, for example, the full Pathfinder and it will likely be a big success and get lots of attention. Problem is, that would be a gargantuan task, as big as doing AD&D back in BG2 era.
So, again, the conclusion is that the stakes today are MUCH lower even compared to that Torment/BG2 era.
Make a good CRPG that implements, for example, the full Pathfinder and it will likely be a big success and get lots of attention. Problem is, that would be a gargantuan task, as big as doing AD&D back in BG2 era.
So, again, the conclusion is that the stakes today are MUCH lower even compared to that Torment/BG2 era.
StereoVsn
Member
The interest is in good games and PoE, D:OS and Shadowrun Dragonfall/HK were the good ones and sold pretty well. D:OS in particular stood out with its excellent combat engine and Shadowrun games were a great intro to CRPGs and had very good writing quality.
Wasteland 2 was boring, buggy and just overall mediocre. It seems Torment proved to be the same. I didn't back Wasteland 3 or Torment after Wasteland 2.
On the other hand Kickstarters for PoE2, D:OS2 and Battletech have done quite well because theor developers did a great job with previous titles.
As far as Tyranny, it was not marketed great, it came out in an extremely busy time for gaming (like Torment coming out in the middle of a huge Japanese gaming revival, Switch and Horizon), and the game impressions on Steam and Neogaf seemed to be meh.
bonesmccoy
Banned
I tracked Tyranny for a while during it's development, but bailed after I saw the combat. It looked (and seems to have turned out to be) really boring.
Obsidian's above average writing is not enough to overcome tired-ass mechanics and systems.
I'd put Torment ahead of Wasteland 2.
Obsidian's above average writing is not enough to overcome tired-ass mechanics and systems.
I'd put Torment ahead of Wasteland 2.
Unless something has changed recently it's at least getting an expansion. From there who knows?
Honestly it seems like Tyranny has done quite well for what it is. It's a weird and somewhat off-putting concept. It uses PoE's modern IE technology but doesn't look anything like or have anything like the tone of the IE games. It's a combat-heavy game where the combat is not the selling point of the game.
It just seems like an interesting but awkward experiment. If they continue the franchise they should go a different direction than IE-like. Something like King of Dragon Pass as a template might be a better fit.
It just seems like an interesting but awkward experiment. If they continue the franchise they should go a different direction than IE-like. Something like King of Dragon Pass as a template might be a better fit.
DeadbeatCassanova
Member
Played Tyranny and loved it. Coming from putting around 150 hours into PoE I found the combat in Tyranny familiar yet different enough to remain interesting. Kinda like a dumbed down PoE and its pretty easy to become OP very quickly. The ending didn't bother me then and it only bothers me now because it looks like its not getting a sequel or expansion.
Kinda expected Tyranny not to sell well because of its release date and very minimal marketing. Don't really understand why everyone is freaking out about obsidian though. Yeah Tyranny might have been a disappointment but the PoE 2 kickstarter was a huge success so I'm sure they're fine.
Kinda expected Tyranny not to sell well because of its release date and very minimal marketing. Don't really understand why everyone is freaking out about obsidian though. Yeah Tyranny might have been a disappointment but the PoE 2 kickstarter was a huge success so I'm sure they're fine.
Just looking at the art book for Tyranny shows some incredible designs. The idea of Edicts changing the landscape is awesome.
Are you just talking about it being 2D? Because in terms of design, the looks of Original Sin are fairly normal for fantasy standards.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
I wanted to get Tyranny but players saying it feels unfinished convinced me not to. I might buy Pillars of Eternity+DLC even though it's not on sale just to support the devs to be honest. Really sucks how Obsidian always struggles. I wish they would make a new Fallout game again partnered with Bethesda. Fallout 4 gameplay+ character creation coupled with Obsidian's actually good writing would be perfect.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
What would you roll with for making these games? Turn based, or would you go for more of a pure action based one? The Pillars extension of Unity does at least let them make nice looking games without major budgets, but might be a problem depending on what kind of game you wanted to make.
Yeah I have purchased Divinity: OS and PoE based on threads here on GAF, and I like the gameplay of Divinity much much more than Pillars
Tyranny really came out of nowhere for me, never knew it was being developed nor released, and, while liking it, it felt like something was missing in terms and of size and presentation, the main scenario wasnt enough to grab me as much as POE did and the pacing suffered a lot after the first act. I think there's still a market for good PC rpgs, but people also want more of anything today, a game needs to be the complete package and a pinch of "cool"to sell these days
Freyjadour
Member
I don't regret buying Tyranny. Hell, I'll buy anything Obsidian puts out just to support them.
It had some really really interesting ideas on mixing up the formula for these kind of games and didn't really do much with it after the first Act. Makes KOTOR II look like a polished, 100% finished game.
It had some really really interesting ideas on mixing up the formula for these kind of games and didn't really do much with it after the first Act. Makes KOTOR II look like a polished, 100% finished game.
DAI is much less dumb than DAO. At least the combat doesn't just boil down to "drink a health potion if you're injured".
I prefer DA:I's combat over Origins, but I would have liked to see a more robust tactical options menu.
Lacked the skillful narrative from the orig. You could kind of see it coming when they started marketing the game's word count.
Basically the difference between a good book and a book where you kind of empathize with author because you can feel that they are trying but nah you feel like they are trying so hard and so much in the wrong direction and that really soured the whole experience.
@tyranny, i thought it was cool as fuck with plenty of great ideas (but unfortunately, as it is with a lot of these games, it def seemed like it needed more time and polish). But i mean there wasnt really a point where i thought itd sell well, even if it's problems were addressed
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
I read the scenario differently. To me, it sounds like Obsidian wanted to capitalize on the success of POE1, tried with Tyranny and it didn't work, and now they're back to what worked. Feargus is already invested in fig, so this made sense for them.
Mr.Deadshot
Member
True. They did a lot of promotion on Facebook - for example. I heard about the game when it was announced and a lot more before release.
Those people aren't necessarily the same though I'm defending people poor taste in game and writing. The internet requires you to hyperbole to make a point doesn't help too.
I see someone isn't playing at higher difficulty than normal.
One thing that I couldn't understand with these new CRPGs is how they somehow stubbornly trying to keep 90's bland aesthetic and graphic. Their game doesn't need to have cutting edge graphics like The Witcher 3. There are some indie game with interesting visual to look at due to their aesthetic style like Bastion, or Renowned Explorers. Writing is important for RPGs but it seems these devs forget that video game is ultimately an audio visual medium. No wonder that Chris Avellone in his latest interview said that he's looking into storytelling methods via environment and visuals.
Hmmm? I wonder if we might be talking about different things. That or I just haven't had enough coffee. I was just saying that 1) while Tyranny hasn't sold amazingly it's still sold well enough to get some kind of expansion pack that's currently in development (unless that has been cancelled in the last month or so, though it doesn't seem like it from some of Sham's intonation in the article) and 2) some of the wording made it sound like the relationship between the two companies is a bit strained which may help answer the question that's been out there about whether Paradox would help with Deadfire or if Obsidian would entirely self-publish. The second part was half a joke though.
I like the art a lot sometimes but personally i feel like a lot of the lacks from these kickstarter era crpgs stem from their dedication to create their games under the framework of the older games (trying to catch their vibe) and then putting their tweaks on it. Which is kind of exactly what the ppl who funded these games long for, but in practice makes for these games that ppl go into with large ass context and particular expectations and chains (?) the development process in the meanwhile
So id agree that a crpg that utilizes the format and bends it towards THEIR vision is something im more interested in...im so excited for no truce w/ the furies lol
So id agree that a crpg that utilizes the format and bends it towards THEIR vision is something im more interested in...im so excited for no truce w/ the furies lol