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Paying for content already on the disc, the EVIL side of the Xbox Live Marketplace

PacoDG

Member
Jul 20, 2007
2,320
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0
Orlando, FL
rappergamervarietyhour.com
Returners said:
After reading this thread I pose a question:

Since people have gripes with DLC being on disc and then downloading a "key" to unlock a game.

How about if something is done before the game is shipped and is not put onto the disc, then the publishers release the content as DLC thats not a key. Would you feel better?

Of course, I don't think the argument with unlock keys has ever been about when the content was done (speaking for myself only of course), it is a matter of selling a key but claiming what is being sold is full content, when that is not the case, it is just a key to access information on the disc you have already purchased.
 

NZNova

Member
Feb 23, 2007
3,675
0
0
Stumpokapow said:
Because we are your consumers and we are telling you that we don't take kindly on-disc paid DLC.

So are you okay with it if it's exactly the same content, developed at the same time, but hosted on a server rather than put on the disc?
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
May 21, 2006
17,232
3
0
NZNova said:
So are you okay with it if it's exactly the same content, developed at the same time, but hosted on a server rather than put on the disc?

The basic difference is that with the content being on the server, there's room for good faith that the developer is not screwing you over. Maybe it couldn't get done on time--maybe they got the extra content approved while the game was in the manufacturing stage, maybe they still wanted to tweak it a little bit, yadda yadda. Very few developers announce "We've cut features from the game so we can sell them to you for extra!!! AWWW YEAH!!!"

But with on-disc DLC, we are CERTAIN the developer is trying to pull the wool over our eyes. It's guaranteed. The content has been approved. The content has been through cert. The content is there.

Last generation, the stuff that is pay-to-unlock-on-disc would have been free. This generation, it is not. Consumers are getting less and being asked to pay more. That is by definition an anti-consumer move. If you want to categorize it as "money-grubbing", "a scam", "dishonest", "anti-consumer"--the label you choose for it is not something I'm overly concerned with.

My personal rule of thumb:
- Paying for things that used to be free cheat codes is an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you
- Paying for things that are obviously removed from the game (Skate 2 filters being missing, for example) is an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you.
- Paying to unlock content that's on the disc is an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you.
- Paying to unlock content day one that's not on the disc and must be downloaded is probably an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you (I think there are specific cases for/against--day one costume unlocks are almost certainly a scam, but something like the Space Invaders WiiWare model is more consumer-friendly)

- Paying to unlock content that requires additional time on the part of the developer is generally not a scam, although it may or may not be good value depending on the content. If some of the Burnout Paradise updates, for example, had been pay-for, I would not consider those a scam even if I wouldn't necessarily buy them.

Does this make sense?
 

FoxHimself

Member
Mar 15, 2006
4,239
1
1,335
How can people defend shit like this?

Lets take an example: Mega Man 9. You have to PAY FOR ANOTHER DIFFICULTY SETTING.

How can you NOT feel cheated? It's disgusting practise, and one of the reasons my respect for the Burnout Paradise developers has shot through the roof the last year or so.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Oct 27, 2004
103,711
3
0
36
Nowhere, PA
FoxHimself said:
How can people defend shit like this?

Lets take an example: Mega Man 9. You have to PAY FOR ANOTHER DIFFICULTY SETTING.

How can you NOT feel cheated? It's disgusting practise, and one of the reasons my respect for the Burnout Paradise developers has shot through the roof the last year or so.

Burnout Paradise devs really deserve a lot of props, totally agree.
 
Jun 6, 2004
68,817
0
1,570
Stumpokapow said:
Because we are your consumers and we are telling you that we don't take kindly on-disc paid DLC.

I'm not sure why you persistently participate in consumer-rights oriented threads. We get it, your stance is that developers need to do what developers need to do to survive. You're a developer. You don't want to lose your job. You want your products do well. Everyone gets it.

But you consistently and flippantly dismiss any sort of consumer-oriented argument. It doesn't matter what thread, it doesn't matter who is making them. If it's something that tips the consumer-producer relationship in favour of consumers, you oppose it. We know.

You have to recognize, a priori to any discussion here, that consumers do not like getting less when they used to get more and they do not like paying more when they used to pay less and that consumers not liking these two things are important mechanisms by which capitalism continues to operate.

Great, you don't find it dishonest that you are able to charge for content that's on the disc. Consumers are telling you, live and in person, that they do find it dishonest.
you pretty much nailed it, and you did it much more eloquence than me.
 

dionusos

Banned
Aug 26, 2008
107
0
0
Stumpokapow said:
The basic difference is that with the content being on the server, there's room for good faith that the developer is not screwing you over. Maybe it couldn't get done on time--maybe they got the extra content approved while the game was in the manufacturing stage, maybe they still wanted to tweak it a little bit, yadda yadda. Very few developers announce "We've cut features from the game so we can sell them to you for extra!!! AWWW YEAH!!!"

But with on-disc DLC, we are CERTAIN the developer is trying to pull the wool over our eyes. It's guaranteed. The content has been approved. The content has been through cert. The content is there.

Last generation, the stuff that is pay-to-unlock-on-disc would have been free. This generation, it is not. Consumers are getting less and being asked to pay more. That is by definition an anti-consumer move. If you want to categorize it as "money-grubbing", "a scam", "dishonest", "anti-consumer"--the label you choose for it is not something I'm overly concerned with.

My personal rule of thumb:
- Paying for things that used to be free cheat codes is an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you
- Paying for things that are obviously removed from the game (Skate 2 filters being missing, for example) is an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you.
- Paying to unlock content that's on the disc is an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you.
- Paying to unlock content day one that's not on the disc and must be downloaded is probably an attempt for them to hoodwink money out of you (I think there are specific cases for/against--day one costume unlocks are almost certainly a scam, but something like the Space Invaders WiiWare model is more consumer-friendly)

- Paying to unlock content that requires additional time on the part of the developer is generally not a scam, although it may or may not be good value depending on the content. If some of the Burnout Paradise updates, for example, had been pay-for, I would not consider those a scam even if I wouldn't necessarily buy them.

Does this make sense?
This is how I feel about it. If it's on the disc, then you know they had it ready and are purposely making you pay more when you already paid full price. If it's not on the disc but on their server instead, then we can give them the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't done yet, and so it is extra employee time/costs to them that we are covering by paying more for it. If it's not on the disc, but on the server, and for a FACT we KNEW that they had it ready but held it back to charge more money, then that would be just as scandalous as putting it on the disc but locking it away until you pay for it.
 

Baha

Member
Apr 5, 2008
7,268
0
0
Canada
whitehawk said:
No, the evil side of XBLM, is there's no fucking confirm puchase button when looking at DLC, or any content. You click the item to look at description and check price, and then if you accidently hit A, it fucking buys the shit for you without another "Are you sure"? It's fucking bullshit there should be one more question, where 'no' is highlighted.

Fuck you Microsoft, now I have some stupid Fable 2 DLC. Fuck.

Seriously? My brother has a 360 but he hasn't purchased anything off the marketplace yet, I never knew about this.
 

SkySonata

Banned
Jul 18, 2008
363
0
0
SaggyMonkey said:
They're just getting you warmed up for an era where all the games are free, and you just lease the items in them. Want this sword? That's a $1 for 30 days.

I think that already goes on in a few MMOs...








Thank you OP for this thread. There can't be enough of them. More people need to know how much of a ripoff DLC is, and unless people vote with their dollars and voice their opinions, the trend will get worse.
 

whitehawk

Banned
Jan 27, 2008
24,822
332
1,345
Canada
Baha said:
Seriously? My brother has a 360 but he hasn't purchased anything off the marketplace yet, I never knew about this.
Yup, I'm going to continue calling Microsoft and bitching about it until I get some points or something. I already called a few times and got hung up on.
 

t3nmilez

Member
Jul 23, 2008
489
0
840
There are more examples of this...especially in Japanese games that don't get released in the States, those aren't exempt!

Although, iDOLM@STER isn't unlock keys, everything is new content. The way that works is you can download a monthly "catalog" file, which downloads a big file containing all of the content to your drive. Then, you look at the catalog and you can choose what to buy, which is unlocked instantly.

Anyway, the other two DDR Universe games have unlock keys. This sucks because the old Xbox DDR games were downloaded songs that you could use with any of the Xbox games. You can't do that with the Universe games. In fact, as an added insult, Universe 3 lets you download the DLC from the first two Universe games...both as unlock keys. You already own the keys from the first two games? It means nothing!
 

RayStorm

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Jan 5, 2006
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FoxHimself said:
How can people defend shit like this?

I think there is a difference between defending something and not caring much about something.

Lets take an example: Mega Man 9. You have to PAY FOR ANOTHER DIFFICULTY SETTING.

I assume there was a fairly easy way to know that before you bought it? If yes, I don't know, how you can feel cheated by that.

Same goes for pay-content already on the disc. As long as you have no illusion that it's free and not buying it does not hamper your enjoyment of the game/playing through the story mode, I don't agree with the outrage.

Stumpokapow said:
The basic difference is that with the content being on the server, there's room for good faith that the developer is not screwing you over. Maybe it couldn't get done on time--maybe they got the extra content approved while the game was in the manufacturing stage, maybe they still wanted to tweak it a little bit, yadda yadda. Very few developers announce "We've cut features from the game so we can sell them to you for extra!!! AWWW YEAH!!!"
Why do you think it's necessarily features cut from the game? As long as you don't actually notice something missing from the story mode or something preventing your completion, I don't know how you could feel that something was cut to exploit the gamer, that otherwise would be missing out on something significant.
 
Dec 8, 2008
72,316
10
1,005
Miami, FL
Ranger X said:
This shit really is stupid. I sure hope you don't buy on that crap.
STOP MICROTRANSACTING BITCHES. It's for the sake of gaming. One day it will affect your enjoyment. All of you.

Well, ok. Maybe except some post-PS2 brainwashed kids.


this is where my hatred of DLC began.


I've been a strong opponent of this shit since the GRAW Chapter 2 DLC hit the 360 marketplace in '06. It was essentially the same shit PC gamers were getting *FOR FREE*...except they were asking $15-$20 for it. AND if you downloaded it and your friends didn't, you didn't get to play with them ever again.

Ever since then, I've been very averse to DLC, only downloading something if most of my Live friends also downloaded it. Pretty much limited to Gears and Halo DLC. and most of the Halo DLC I waited out until it was free or discounted.
 

Mario

Sidhe / PikPok
Jul 15, 2005
8,905
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Wellington, NZ
www.pikpok.com
Stumpokapow said:
Because we are your consumers and we are telling you that we don't take kindly on-disc paid DLC.

Just because you claim something doesn't make it true. I asked what about the practise was dishonest in response to a claim it was, and nobody has pointed to where there is a lie.


I'm not sure why you persistently participate in consumer-rights oriented threads. We get it, your stance is that developers need to do what developers need to do to survive. You're a developer. You don't want to lose your job. You want your products do well. Everyone gets it.

I participate in these threads for a couple of reasons

- to present my own viewpoint (I like to put forward my point of view, like most contributing members of this forum)

- to present one viewpoint of "industry" to raise consumer understanding of where industry is coming from on issues (I like to help people understand things, both personally and professionally)

- to gain a deeper understanding of the behaviours and motivations of consumers (I like to understand things, both personally and professionally)

If you assume any other reason, then you are projecting and assuming incorrectly.


But you consistently and flippantly dismiss any sort of consumer-oriented argument. It doesn't matter what thread, it doesn't matter who is making them. If it's something that tips the consumer-producer relationship in favour of consumers, you oppose it. We know.

I present my viewpoint or an industry Devil's Advocate viewpoint. I do so in a generally respectful way that doesn't usually descend into personal attacks. I do it in such a way that draws on personal experience and actual examples, but at the same time isn't about pimping our products. I do so with full disclosure of my identity and do not hide behind a veil of internet anonymity.

I do not consistently dismiss consumer arguments, though if presented with a weak argument I may present the holes in it. What I consistently do is present my own viewpoint, just like everyone else. What I consistently do is ask questions to explore the issues. Sometimes people answer them. Sometimes people avoid them.

Would you personally prefer I didn't contribute to such threads at all so you have no such industry perspective and consumers alone could argue amongst themselves? Personally I don't see why I don't have as much right to contribute as anyone else on these forums.


You have to recognize, a priori to any discussion here, that consumers do not like getting less when they used to get more and they do not like paying more when they used to pay less and that consumers not liking these two things are important mechanisms by which capitalism continues to operate.

I do recognise that. I want a deeper understanding of the issue.


Great, you don't find it dishonest that you are able to charge for content that's on the disc. Consumers are telling you, live and in person, that they do find it dishonest.

And I'm trying to find out why.


And while I'm in an inquisitive mood, why are you complaining about me and not the other posters who regularly appear in "consumer-oriented" threads? Are you not as tired of their responses as you appear to be of mine.


Edit: also, not all consumers find the practise "dishonest".
 

Aaron

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Apr 12, 2006
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Baha said:
Seriously? My brother has a 360 but he hasn't purchased anything off the marketplace yet, I never knew about this.
You'd have to be seriously clumsy or impatient to make this mistake. You select an item, it tells you the cost and asks you to confirm sale there. If you're paranoid about accidentally buying, just move the cursor away from the confirm option. I'm glad there isn't a hundred confirmations to buy something on XBL. It'd be a huge pain in the ass. I've bought 20 or so things over the years, and never by accident.
 

Synth_floyd

Banned
Jun 12, 2005
6,218
0
0
You guys are attacking the symptom and not the problem. The problem is that devs have decided to charge for stuff that probably would have been free previously. The way that they distribute it is totally irrelevant.

The fact is that devs have a new revenue stream and they are going to exploit it. You can't put the genie back in the bottle at this point. Complaining about on disc DLC vs. downloaded DLC is retarded. Complain about charging for extra stuff and not the means of distribution.
 

Cheerilee

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Apr 14, 2005
10,013
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Stumpokapow said:
If you want to categorize it as "money-grubbing", "a scam", "dishonest", "anti-consumer"--the label you choose for it is not something I'm overly concerned with.
I like the word "crippleware".
 

FoxHimself

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Mar 15, 2006
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RayStorm said:
I assume there was a fairly easy way to know that before you bought it? If yes, I don't know, how you can feel cheated by that.

I meant cheated as in cheated that it's not already there. I haven't bought the extra difficulty settings, but god damn dude. PAYING FOR A DIFFICULTY SETTING?

I'm going to repeat that:

YOU HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE ANOTHER SETTING. It's DISGUSTING.
 

RayStorm

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Jan 5, 2006
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FoxHimself said:
I meant cheated as in cheated that it's not already there. I haven't bought the extra difficulty settings, but god damn dude. PAYING FOR A DIFFICULTY SETTING?

I'm going to repeat that:

YOU HAVE TO PAY TO HAVE ANOTHER SETTING. It's DISGUSTING.

Well let's look at it like that:
The game with one difficulty costs ... 1200 points
The additional difficulty 400 points.

Now let's just assume that, if they couldn't have split it up, would have just sold the "complete" game for 1600 points.

Ergo: There is choice and no one has to pay more than they would have had to, had there been no additional content. Those that don't need the additional features actually pay less, and those that want them don't pay more, if there was no choice. Same way if it's a physical game and the content was already on the disc.
Now... is that the case with MegaMan9? Probably not. Does it look like a rip-off? Maybe a tiny little bit.

But still, I don't think "cheated" is the right expression here. To be cheated, wouldn't you have to be misled by false promises of the content before?
 

mclem

Member
Jan 16, 2007
42,665
3
1,190
I'm always in two minds about this. I dislike it on *principle*, because it *sounds* unreasonable; player owns disc, disc contains content, ergo player should own content; it makes perfect sense.

The problem comes when I think about the alternative; why are 'real' DLC items available for download separately? Because they're not on the disc. Why are they not on the disc? Because they weren't in a condition suitable for release at the time the disc was mastered.

...so isn't the objection to DLC being present on a disc basically saying "We dislike the fact that this DLC was ready for release at the time the disc was mastered?". Phrased like that, it looks like complaining about something unimportant.

This is when I start bouncing back and forth between the two points of view, and I never really settle on an idea of one approach being 'right' and the other being 'wrong'.
 

FoxHimself

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Mar 15, 2006
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RayStorm said:
Well let's look at it like that:
The game with one difficulty costs ... 1200 points
The additional difficulty 400 points.

Now let's just assume that, if they couldn't have split it up, would have just sold the "complete" game for 1600 points.

Ergo: There is choice and no one has to pay more than they would have had to, had there been no additional content. Those that don't need the additional features actually pay less, and those that want them don't pay more, if there was no choice. Same way if it's a physical game and the content was already on the disc.
Now... is that the case with MegaMan9? Probably not. Does it look like a rip-off? Maybe a tiny little bit.

But still, I don't think "cheated" is the right expression here. To be cheated, wouldn't you have to be misled by false promises of the content before?

Bullshit. It's a fucking DIFFICULTY SETTING. I'm not talking about an entire level or new feature. It's a DIFFICULTY SETTING. I'm pretty sure it just moves the enemies around and makes them take a few hits more, it's not like it's some huge undertaking.

No other game made, ever, has made you pay real life money for a damn options setting.

RAAAAAWWWRRGGHHH INTERNET RAGE!
 

epmode

Member
Jun 7, 2004
28,470
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FoxHimself said:
Bullshit. It's a fucking DIFFICULTY SETTING. I'm not talking about an entire level or new feature. It's a DIFFICULTY SETTING. I'm pretty sure it just moves the enemies around and makes them take a few hits more, it's not like it's some huge undertaking.

No other game made, ever, has made you pay real life money for a damn options setting.

RAAAAAWWWRRGGHHH INTERNET RAGE!
And yet, people will still defend it. GAF is out of its mind sometimes.

I'm with you, friend.
 

xabre

Banned
Jun 11, 2004
4,974
0
0
The worst part about XBL Marketplace is that a) there is no facility for allowing the removal of credit card details from your 360 account and b) there is no way to cancel a gold subscription via credit card through the dashboard.

This is nothing but a scum move imo.