Support NeoGAF

[ChiefDada]

Todd Howard says that Starfield's ship AI sucks on purpose so players can actually hit stuff: 'You have to make the AI really stupid'

Not everyone can make the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs.

www.pcgamer.com

For Bethesda, the snags started happening when it came to designing enemy AI: "It's very easy … to make the enemies really really smart, forever we were just jousting [with them]. It turns out you have to make the AI really stupid. You have to have them fly, then they need to turn, basically like 'hey player, why don't you just shoot me for a while?' … [once we'd] settled on our pace, and how the enemies are gonna move, that's where it came together."

Honestly, I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I was having some trouble keeping enemies in my crosshairs before I pumped some points into the targeting control systems skill. And that's with an AI that dangles their blastable hulls in front of you like a deer caught in headlights. I love a good FPS, but if you put me behind the wheel of a ship I'm likely to run into the first solid thing I see. Like a chunky metal moth to the sun.


Still, it's interesting to see the kinds of compromises dev teams have to make, especially when designing something completely out of their comfort zone. Given I quicksave before every skirmish (just in case I botch my energy management) I'm personally glad the game's pilots were built stupid on purpose.

 

[Stitch]

We have purposely trained AI wrong, as a joke.

 

[Black_Stride]

Known fact devs dumb down AI to make things more fun.
99% of the time the AI actually already knows where you are and is more than capable of totally fucking you up......but that wouldnt be fun, so they dumb it down till it reaches a level they believe is fun......sometimes they miss that mark.



Bethesda themselves missed the mark in Starfield a stealth build in the stock version of Starfield is basically impossible because the AI is way to aggressive.
Lucky theres a stealth mod for Starfield already that makes stealth actually viable.......im never going to play a stealth build anyway, but im sure someone will like that mod.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

So it was a creative decision . . . just like the 30fps.

 

[DeepEnigma]

 

[Lucifers Beard]

I'd rather the A.I was smarter but didn't take ages to kill/destroy.

 

[Aion002]

Itagaki reaction:

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

I played perfect dark on the N64 and set the difficulty to the highest level, the AI was so good that with a simple pistol from several meters away I could hit Joanna Dark's head.

 

[R6Rider]

 

[Magic Carpet]

What, Don't people like flipping and rolling around to hit things? Imagine if the AI was able to avoid you. The battle would never end.
They should have used tactics battle instead of twitch space battles. Then I would have been able to RPG change it up.
Now If I get into a space battle I just load an older save and hope to avoid it.
The space combat is not fun.

 

[CoreyFlawless]

I mean it make sense. Even the two time doc disrespect had a very hard time beating them. It was funny watching him go thru pain and complaining that the game was bullshit, yet was slapping his ass around

 

[Skifi28]

If only options were a thing.

 

[Miles708]

That's basically how every game works.

 

[solidus12]

It’s a Bethesda game, it’s part of the charm. That’s why Starfield will be the game of the generation.

 

[ChiefDada]

That's basically how every game works.

Every game with unbalanced AI systems, sure. This isn't a problem for games like TLOU2 and Returnal which have excellent balance.

 

[MasterCornholio]

We have purposely trained AI wrong, as a joke.

 

[T4keD0wN]

Yeah, the AI sucks. I'll have you know that I had no trouble fighting against this AI that totally sucks, and I definitely didn't retry any ship battles multiple times. Haha, what a dumb AI.

 

[DryvBy]

I'm camping here for the soldiers of Green to explain how this is great news.

 

[Topher]

Then why did they dumb down the ship movement as well? There's no Z axis or strafing. Ship combat is reduced to turning in circles and shooting at each other since movement is more like an airplane than a space ship. Everspace 2 nailed this stuff and I didn't see many complaints about dumb AI.

 

[Zoloft]

 

[DeepEnigma]

Then why did they dumb down the ship movement as well? There's no Z axis or strafing. Ship combat is reduced to turning in circles and shooting at each other since movement is more like an airplane than a space ship. Everspace 2 nailed this stuff and I didn't see many complaints about dumb AI.

Remember about 2 years ago or less, the leak from the play-testers saying the ship combat was not good?

I remember.

 

[Miles708]

Every game with unbalanced AI systems, sure. This isn't a problem for games like TLOU2 and Returnal which have excellent balance.

Every single game on the market cheats left and right with its AI to make it a compelling challenge.

 

[skyfall]

So real gamers have to suffer so the the mass of plebs can hit stuff? This is (another) reason why gaming become so commercial is a very bad thing

 

[Kenneth Haight]

 

[justiceiro]

Didn't he consider that maybe the handling of the ship was not good enough to have a thrilling battle?

 

[ChiefDada]

Every single game on the market cheats left and right with its AI to make it a compelling challenge.

Huh? This is literally the opposite of what Todd and Starfield players are saying though.

 

[M.W.]

Why is the writing really stupid then?

HUH TODD?

 

[Aenima]

 

[DemonGamerTTT]

People joke about this then 5 minutes later open a thread here on GAF saying that they "play on easy and are proud".

Those "old family guy" players that complain about anything are the reason that games nowadays are so dumbed down.

 

[Kamina]

 

[Topher]

Remember about 2 years ago or less, the leak from the play-testers saying the ship combat was not good?

I remember.

Yeah, I remember that as well. And it isn't. I said that early on as when I started playing. Combat and space traversal were the most disappointing aspects of the game for me.

 

[Virex]

weeewwweeeweeeewww

 

[Miles708]

Huh? This is literally the opposite of what Todd and Starfield players are saying though.

I apologize, i meant "to make the game fun".
The point stands, though. You have to make the AI stupid if you want to make the game fun and beatable. You have to have enemies make errors, telegraph attacks, auto-stun themselves or, like in this case, do stupid maneuvers to open their backs to your missiles.

This is usual stuff games do.

 

[skyfall]

You have to make the AI stupid if you want to make the game fun and beatable. You have to have enemies make errors, telegraph attacks, auto-stun themselves or, like in this case, do stupid maneuvers to open their backs to your missiles.

This is just a ridiculous thing to say and not true at all. Maybe you're just not very good at games?

 

[Heisenberg007]

 

[Heisenberg007]

I apologize, i meant "to make the game fun".
The point stands, though. You have to make the AI stupid if you want to make the game fun and beatable. You have to have enemies make errors, telegraph attacks, auto-stun themselves or, like in this case, do stupid maneuvers to open their backs to your missiles.

This is usual stuff games do.

No, sorry, that's really stupid. You make the AI advanced and clever to make the game fun.

It has nothing to do with a game's difficulty. Otherwise, might as well just put out cardboard cutouts in place of enemy AI to make the game "even more fun."

 

[rodrigolfp]

"Honestly, I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I was having some trouble keeping enemies in my crosshairs before I pumped some points into the targeting control systems skill"

Freaking casuals and their retarded sticks.

 

[Gambit2483]

I've played the Ace combat games. You can make dogfighting fun and challenging. Maybe he means because it's in "space"...

 

[IFireflyl]

So real gamers have to suffer so the the mass of plebs can hit stuff? This is (another) reason why gaming become so commercial is a very bad thing

Don't worry. I don't see you as a real gamer.

 

[Topher]

Don't worry. I don't see you as a real gamer.

 

[dotnotbot]

Todd Howard also sucks on purpose

 

[anthraticus]

I think he really meant, they made the entire game stupid to appeal to the popamolers/casuals/masses. (like they've been doing since Oblivious)

 

[Pelta88]

These sound bites got me convinced that the situation around starfield, despite the meaningless metrics, is truly fucked up. I mean, Todd Howard did admit that he felt the pressure for Starfield to sell consoles...

Todd Howard Says There's "A Lot Of Responsibility" For Starfield To Sell Consoles

With exclusivity comes great benefits, but also great responsibility.

www.thegamer.com

 

[P:axMagellanic]

Then why did they dumb down the ship movement as well? There's no Z axis or strafing. Ship combat is reduced to turning in circles and shooting at each other since movement is more like an airplane than a space ship. Everspace 2 nailed this stuff and I didn't see many complaints about dumb AI.

Ship thruster skill turns it into semi newtonian. You can flip your ship around and fire travelling backwards.

 

[Knightime_X]

Ai is made stupid on purpose for every game ever made.
Why now bring it up with starfield is beyond me.

 

[Topher]

Ship thruster skill turns it into semi newtonian. You can flip your ship around and fire travelling backwards.

Yeah, but it isn't even necessary. The enemy ship passes you exposing its flank and you get blow it to bits as it tries come back around. There just really isn't much to it.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

Yeah, but it isn't even necessary. The enemy ship passes you exposing its flank and you get blow it to bits as it tries come back around. There just really isn't much to it.

If anything it makes combat easier, you just turn and burn and lock-on spam them down.

 

[FoxMcChief]

I'd rather the A.I was smarter but didn't take ages to kill/destroy.

I’m wrecking everything with my ship. Fucking melting them before I could lock on, lol. My partical turrets are nasty. And I play on Very Hard.

Most devs dumb down AI in all aspects.

 

[Bernardougf]

Well ... being called stupid is something really one fanbase can accept

 

[FoxMcChief]

Ai is made stupid on purpose for every game ever made.
Why now bring it up with starfield is beyond me.

You know why.