The Batman Arkham Asylum "no glide" check and the Serious Sam "invincible overpowered scorpion" are both good examples of that.
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PC version of Inside seemingly using Denuvo
- Thread starter JaseC
- Start date
The Batman Arkham Asylum "no glide" check and the Serious Sam "invincible overpowered scorpion" are both good examples of that.
donutzsick
Member
Good! All games should use denuvo and I hope denuvo keeps bopping pirates
More_Badass
Member
Hey, I'm always up for a discussion. No need to be cautious with me. Honestly, I think a lot of my feelings towards piracy comes a lot from how much time I spend playing on mobile. And how insane the piracy is on Android, and even iOS, to the point that devs who released premium games on iOS will make their games free on Android. I've read comments from developers in the Gaf Indie Development thread here that the ratio of bought-to-pirated on PC is akin to releasing a F2P game on mobile. since that's how many people will be playing your game for free.
Real_Madrid
Member
It's a good selling pc game without DRM. Nothing more nothing less, people always act like Witcher 3 is the second coming of christ in Denuvo/piracy threads.
Ghostmaster
Member
Denuvo isn't going away any time soon and is probably going to spread to even more games.
Doom, RotR and Total War Warhammer use it and they are some of the best selling AAA titles on steam.
The only big publishers that are avoiding it are Bethesda for obvious reasons (modding) and CD Project Red (also for obvious reasons- they own GOG, which operates under no DRM policy)
Doom, RotR and Total War Warhammer use it and they are some of the best selling AAA titles on steam.
The only big publishers that are avoiding it are Bethesda for obvious reasons (modding) and CD Project Red (also for obvious reasons- they own GOG, which operates under no DRM policy)
Indeed, no way to know. It's baffling to me that no company has come out and revealed how effective Denuvo has been in increasing their sales either. Going by the (not very accurate) sales figures we can deduce, things have continues on course with no real swing either way. I'm be more willing to get potentially dicked down the line if I saw some concrete evidence that there was a benefit on at least their end. Like my first post in here said, this could be interesting as an indie developers might be more willing to give info on the effect of Denuvo.
Do you have a rebuttal to the facts of their success or are you just going to keep acting like they're just an exception with no tangible reason to why they and their umbrella company are able to do what they do with potentially screwing over customers?
CecilRousso
Member
I rather not have a depency at all, but in the case of a retailer in makes some sense, like with Steam that actually provides me with services I want to be connected to. I do buy plenty of games from GOG and Humble though.
Yeah, that's kinda the problem, that Denuvo interfers with the terms of useage I expect from certain retailers/platforms.
I think that's a problem, that makes me hesitant to buy from Sony. But I have no interest in speaking for others.
Don't care the slightest what the mass market says, other then that their opinions may annoy me. But considering all the cases where public opinion has caused developers to stop using certain types of DRM, I will continue to speak out against it.
with the exception of Bullestorm
also other DRMs that are unplayable on Win10 beacause of such DRM (unless some security stuff is lifted)
TAges/Solidshield (Anno 2070, Riddick, Avatar, Dead space 2,... )
Starforce/Actcontrol (most notable Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory [424 days uncracked aka better number than denuvo],Colin McRae Rally 2005 , ....)
Securom (BioShock , Mass Effect,GTA4, Fable3, TDU2 ...) - aka the previous work of people behind Denuvo
BTW: cracked works flawlessly
The Batman Arkham Asylum "no glide" check and the Serious Sam "invincible overpowered scorpion" are both good examples of that.
That's not really DRM, though. More of a by-product of it.
Word. Denuvo will only become more accepted for AAA
CecilRousso
Member
Games we expected to sell despite Denuvo.
You can look at other games like XCOM2 and Dark Souls III, that were released in the same period and without Denuvo, that has sold just as much or even more.
They still work on the Windows OS versions from the time of their release.
Older games aren't always going to work on new OSes, DRM or not. There are plenty of older PC games that don't run on Win 10. There are old MacOS games that don't run on the current version of OS X. Hell, there are old iOS games that don't run on the current version of iOS.
Why not? It prevents people with illegitimate copies from playing the game. That's the whole point of DRM. These are just more creative examples than a boring error message in a text box.
Maintenance
Member
Cool, so I can skip it without thinking twice.
Kinda telling that you try to make your point by using Microsoft's recent attempt at a walled garden plus two another walled gardens. And that's not even taking in consideration that MacOS left PowerPC behind.
Kinda telling that you try to make your point by using Microsoft's recent attempt at a walled garden plus two another walled gardens. And that's not even taking in consideration that MacOS left PowerPC behind.
uncredited male
Member
Patching out DRM was fairly common back in the day. As were the waves of bannings that would happen on FileForums when posters would then gloat that they could now play their pirated isos.
iNvid02
Member
there could be a middle ground here whereby a version of this DRM protects games for a while, far past the launch period, and then eventually gets cracked enabling preservation and whatever else. the company behind it will no doubt alter it to create a new iteration and continue protecting future games, rinse and repeat.
server check required, so its yet another dependency for modern games (and another failure point)
server check required, so its yet another dependency for modern games (and another failure point)
Eh, there were DOS and Windows 3.1x games that wouldn't run on Windows XP without specific updates and patching. That's not a walled garden. Neither is OS X.
These are issues that are outside of DRM. If you're a software preservationist, you're not going to be trying to run old games on the latest OS. You're going to be running them on software and hardware that was current at the time.
The Batman Arkham Asylum "no glide" check and the Serious Sam "invincible overpowered scorpion" are both good examples of that.
Technically speaking, those aren't DRM. Those are just different triggers.
You'd still need something to check whatever it should activate on.
Of course you can do simple checks like check it's installed under steams folder.
Deunvo doesn't prevent modding. It definitely hinders it. Of course it makes easier to implement things like file integrity checking.
Bulletstorm still works fine, GFWL servers aren't shutdown.
Steam-version of GTA IV works still.
Well, it does cost to make that update, so unfortunately it's unlikely to start happening
At least Denuvo based games isn't in immediate danger, but still worth keeping in mind.
Is that with every single boot?
Robert Ashley
Member
Ghostmaster
Member
I'm not saying that games without Denuvo aren't selling, just that Denuvo doesn't seem to have a serious negative impact on the sales and thus more and more publishers will be likely to use it just in case.
Yeah, but Bethesda doesn't want to piss off modders even more so soon after the paid mods fiasco, especially now that they've gone down the mods on consoles route.
Doom is also published by Bethesda but it uses Denuvo
steam version is a bit different compared to disc one
and still at least in my case it was easier to download a crack than mess with GfWL and lift windowws security policies for securom pass through
not the point .. this is open platform PC not closed iOS.......
BTW: those i mentioned are specifically games (mostly from retail discs as back then most DRMs were to protect discs and not accounts) which are locked out on modern system because of DRM ... aka cracked versions works flawlessly
And at some point that hardware/software will be unreasonably difficult to obtain, and the software will either fade into history, or stand the test of time and be resurrected by companies like GOG.
Yeah sure DRM is another potential hurdle in preserving software, but honestly there are many other, often larger hurdles that already exist.
Real_Madrid
Member
I never talked about exception or whatsoever, the DRM free nature of Witcher 3 is like the second coming of christ for some people. With or without DRM it would sell well, just as Fallout 4 is selling well etc.
And the term 'screwing over customers' is a big exaggeration. I never had a problem with Denuvo, just as almost all gamers who probably don't know the DRM even exists.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Heh, I'd normally get it on GOG or Humble Store regardless of Denuvo, but for this game I just can't wait. I'll just end up buying it four times like I did with Limbo.
iNvid02
Member
just once, otherwise you wouldn't be able to go into offline mode in game clients etc
From the perspective of game preservation, until there is an effective way to remove Denuvo, or we have a clear roadmap for when Denuvo will be removed from games, I'll never be in favor of developers/publishers using it.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not opposed to games including Denuvo, if there's a promise or guarantee the DRM will be removed from effected games should the service be discontinued.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not opposed to games including Denuvo, if there's a promise or guarantee the DRM will be removed from effected games should the service be discontinued.
DangerMouse
Member
1) The only time that is true that I'm aware of for the most part (on PS3/PS4/PSP/Vita) is online games.
In fact, even if a single-player offline game is removed from PSN the game can still be played if it's already downloaded, even if it's never been launched, and there are apparently I think there are some cases where you can re-download from your download list even if the game is removed, though not all like P.T, which can't be re-downloaded.
Another example: People who bought and downloaded the digital version of Brave Story, a JRPG for PSP, are still able to play the game (and even on their Vita) even though it had to be removed from the store due to licensing issues, probably due to the developer going out of business. There are conflicting reports about whether people who bought it can re-download this specific game from the download list or if it's like P.T, but there is no check on the game ever, so it will continue to work indefinitely as long as the system works regardless of PSN even if PSN were to not exist.
For offline games, the PS4 just needs to be set as "primary". Once you do this, you do not need to be online to play offline games you've bought on PSN. PS+ games are the only ones that stop working, and only when you unsubscribe.
2&3) Agreed, the one big shortcoming is that you have to be able to download the game from the store in order put it on a new system if yours dies since you can't save the game installer to a disk to install later to another machine like you can with a PC DRM-free copy from GOG/Humble Bundle.
Some people understandably wait for sales or discounts due to this shortcoming.
No. But there has been DRM that completely stopped pirates for a long time and didn't affect legit users all that much. Denuvo is it.
Unlike Starforce, I haven't had any problems with Denuvo games. I'm only concerned about the online authentication since those servers will likely go down someday and no one will be around to patch the server checks out of the games.
Ideally, a publisher would only leave DRM enabled for several months or years, removing it when sales slow down.
roadrunn3r
Member
I can definitely see that. The common "I don't want to pay for mobile games" is as ugly as it can get but fortunately I think we are not at that level on PC and I've always thought those lost sales to piracy analysis are a bit dubious to say the least. I haven't seen a proper piracy demographic study and if it exist, I would be very curious to read it.
There are lots of low income countries with no regional pricing and that's where I suspect most of piracy comes from. There's no way someone with a 300-500$ average monthly salary or lower is going to buy full priced games any time soon or even 20$ for that. Now you can say they aren't entitled to play a game they can't pay and that's true enough but those are not lost sales, far from that. There are also kids with no jobs and of course people who just don't want to pay for things but all I'm saying is that those lost sales reports are quite shallow and unreliable if they don't account for all those factors.
VolticArchangel
Member
This is absolutely great news for the indie community. Hope Denuvo doesn't take advantage of the current monopoly it has on the industry and price the service in a fair way for upcoming studios or small teams with staff in single digits.
This is coming from someone that cares for preservation of our games as the next person. However, piracy is NOT the solution. We're in the digital age and a plethora of distribution opportunities to look forward to in that regard, than some decadent freehold disputes of IP's in limbo. Sure, it's gonna be hard to bring them all back, but not impossible. "Mainstream" digital distribution is hardly a decade old. Give it time to mature, albeit at a rapid pace given the proliferation of the digital market.
Then again, there will be no true "anti-piracy" measure at all, though we can dream about one. How Denuvo evolves over time is indeed fascinating to see. The 4-6 months of anti-piracy of today for Denuvo equipped titles, maybe extended a little further to 7-8 months. But it's near impossible for one company to actively take down 10-15 warez groups who sit in front of their systems day in and out trying to solve this, while releasing faux PR garbage to hide their incompetence among their peers, no matter how much harder your newer encryption algorithm is to your precursor and even if it is based on unique hardware once again.
This is coming from someone that cares for preservation of our games as the next person. However, piracy is NOT the solution. We're in the digital age and a plethora of distribution opportunities to look forward to in that regard, than some decadent freehold disputes of IP's in limbo. Sure, it's gonna be hard to bring them all back, but not impossible. "Mainstream" digital distribution is hardly a decade old. Give it time to mature, albeit at a rapid pace given the proliferation of the digital market.
Then again, there will be no true "anti-piracy" measure at all, though we can dream about one. How Denuvo evolves over time is indeed fascinating to see. The 4-6 months of anti-piracy of today for Denuvo equipped titles, maybe extended a little further to 7-8 months. But it's near impossible for one company to actively take down 10-15 warez groups who sit in front of their systems day in and out trying to solve this, while releasing faux PR garbage to hide their incompetence among their peers, no matter how much harder your newer encryption algorithm is to your precursor and even if it is based on unique hardware once again.
Huh?
I'm really confused what your point is other than trying to downplay it's possible to be successful on PC while remaining DRM free. Do you think any of the Denuvo games would have been unsuccessful or marginally less successful if released DRM free? That argument flies both ways. What little we can garner, the answer is "things are basically the same".
Yes, most people don't have issues with most DRM. But here's the kicker: some legitimate customers do, and that is fucked. Before I realised that Denuvo wasn't getting cracked any time soon I bought Inquisition (did actually have major issues with it, but I don't think it was Denuvo related and there was a crack for my needs) and MGSV (a game that needed to be cracked several versions ago for true prosperity of it at its best). So, I did not (pretty sure) have any issues with Denuvo, but if anywhere now or down the line someone does, I take exception to it. I've been on that side with DRM in the past and it's infuriating people saying "it hasn't bothered me". There should never be anything that can cause a legitimate customers issues with playing their games, period.
Repeating what I said earlier, while it's not ideal, I am okay with launch DRM for the main bulk of the sales, but no confirmation of there ever being a version (official or otherwise) that isn't tied to some external service, your game is just a rental and should be treated as such - personally, based on what the past has thought me.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
Too bad, no buy then.
Will grab it for Xbox One or iPad/NX down the road...
Will grab it for Xbox One or iPad/NX down the road...
texhnolyze
Banned
So, I'm guessing the older version of Denuvo then?
Does an Indie dev has the budget to apply the highest tier Denuvo?
I have an impression that Denuvo is not that cheap, otherwise most PC games would use it already.
You refuse to buy it on PC due to DRM, but buy the game on console DRM instead that might not run on their next console anyway. Interesting.
Does an Indie dev has the budget to apply the highest tier Denuvo?
I have an impression that Denuvo is not that cheap, otherwise most PC games would use it already.
You refuse to buy it on PC due to DRM, but buy the game on console DRM instead that might not run on their next console anyway. Interesting.
Final Fight Double Impact and Bionic Commando 2 Rearmed would beg to differ.
And if you believe Capcom, other titles have the same DRM.
http://kotaku.com/5523238/capcom-apologizes-for-not-telling-users-of-final-fight-drm
DangerMouse
Member
Interesting, that sucks for those games, I've never experienced this on the titles I've gotten, but I guess it's certainly possible it effects some more titles, perhaps it is or was up to the publisher. But it's also certainly not mandatory since lots of games work.
Also, the article is from 2010 and notes about sharing as a reason and sharing has been limited to less copies perhaps as an alternate solution to publishers.
I always found this brittish study very interesting https://torrentfreak.com/0-more-on-content-than-honest-consumers-130510/?
(there is link to full pdf of it at the boottom of the article)
CecilRousso
Member
No, you don't.
If you did, then you would not want indie games being locked behind things like Denuvo.
DRM free options is the solution. The only thing people here on Neogaf wish with Denuvo being cracked is that it's made useless.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
I'm most definitely going to switch computers and OS many many times over the years, while unless my console breaks I'm ok and I won't need any online-checks. Notice I also specifically said "down the road", implying I'll wait for a sale on Xbox/iPad/NX (while I was down for full price on PC). Online-DRM nukes the main reason I love PC gaming, which is forever-compatibility and the openness of the system.
It's also above all a matter of voting with my wallet really, my stance on online-DRM is that of a No Buy, No Exceptions message to devs/pubs and it won't change here even if I've bought Limbo 5 times and can't wait to experience Inside.
It'll most probably be released at retail in the future anyway, and I'm down for that anytime I can avoid digital-storefronts on consoles.
roadrunn3r
Member
That's indeed very interesting, thank you for linking it.
I've heard this being mentioned a few times but have never read the full study.
wesleyshark
Banned
Where's the immaturity in refusing to purchase video games that come with some undesired extra software? If anything, it shows restraint and being able to stand by what one believes, which actually means those people have grown up and got over the urge to pay for products whose current state they do not like, however much they may want to play them.
texhnolyze
Banned
Yes, I do get your point. But people's problem with Denuvo is game preservation, right? Anti Denuvo folks would argue in every Denuvo discussion that games might not run anymore when Denuvo is out of business, say, 10 years later. And that argument doesn't even have a foundation, all just speculation. But what's the difference with console gaming anyway? Do people seriously keep their consoles and games in the next gen and many years after that? Consoles is the last thing that support gaming preservation and mods.
DirtyLarry
Member
Can a developer not release a patch that effectively removes a DRM such as Denuvo later down the road or is it a matter of once it is implemented that is it?
I would have to imagine it is the former, so unless someone can point me towards documentation that it is the latter, I cannot help but feel all of the doom and gloom talk about not being able to play a game you own years from now because it has the current DRM solution implemented at the time of releases is a bit overly dramatic.
Again, feel free to correct me if I am wrong and point me towards the documentation that says once Denuvo is used it is used for good and it cannot be removed by the developer if they ever want to do so.
I would have to imagine it is the former, so unless someone can point me towards documentation that it is the latter, I cannot help but feel all of the doom and gloom talk about not being able to play a game you own years from now because it has the current DRM solution implemented at the time of releases is a bit overly dramatic.
Again, feel free to correct me if I am wrong and point me towards the documentation that says once Denuvo is used it is used for good and it cannot be removed by the developer if they ever want to do so.
Regginator
Member
Every type of DRM is a huge turn-off. I barely tolerate Steam as it is, but its pros slightly outweigh the cons. Having Denuvo on top of that is just a big no no for me.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Why would you expect a developer to patch out DRM once the game's been out for years and they've already made their money from it? What's their incentive?
toddhunter
Member
To keep selling their game when the DRM service is turned off and their game no longer works.