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[LelouchZero]

But GFWL games still works today.

Games for Windows Live was a catastrophe, you do know that some games can't even be bought anymore? They ran out of keys for games like Fable 3, and even Fuel can't be purchased anymore because of a similar problem.

This is the danger of having these DRM measures in place.

I'm still sceptical of attempting to trust Microsoft again with their Windows 10 Store.

 

[Shiggy]

Seems more like a punishment for early adopters. There'll surely be a DRM free version on Humble.

 

[Dragon Puncher]

Makes sense considering short single player experiences are probably some of the most pirated games out there.

 

[P44]

Indie games get pirated to shit, to be fair here. Yeah people might delay purchase to a sale, but even that few dollars goes to help out devs that actually really fucking need it. I'm not even saying that it's ok to pirate big games because publishers can take the loss, but it's a super dick move to pirate an indie game.

 

[flaxknuckles]

But GFWL games still works today.

Yet I still cannot play Mortal Kombat Kollection.

 

[Lord Error]

This should work on a Macbook running Windows... right? It's not tied to some hardware polling where the edge cases like that are excluded?

I'm bit sad there's no Mac version of the game. Limbo did receive it in parallel with the PC version (iirc)

 

[ymgve]

Well I guess that nixxes the chances of a parallel release on GOG.

 

[JaseC]

This should work on a Macbook running Windows... right? It's not tied to some hardware polling where the edge cases like that are excluded?

I've not read any reports of Denuvo throwing up a red flag in bootcamp scenarios.

 

[ZanDatsu]

Smart move by the devs here, I'm sure a lot of people would have justified themselves pirating it due to it being short and having very low replayability.

 

[Joey Ravn]

Smart move by the devs here, I'm sure a lot of people would have justified themselves pirating it due to it being short and having very low replayability.

What's stopping them from watching it on YouTube, then? A full playthrough of the game is no longer than 3 hours.

 

[Jawbreaker]

I wonder what has more of an impact on sales between piracy and the bad word of mouth vis-à-vis Denuvo, among PC gamers.

 

[KainXVIII]

Yet I still cannot play Mortal Kombat Kollection.

Lost Planet 2 works fine though.

 

[Fardeen]

i'm gonna wait for a steam sale then, no way i'm paying this much for a 3 hour game. i would have paid 10 dollars no more. i hate denuvo

 

[roadrunn3r]

What's stopping them from watching it on YouTube, then? A full playthrough of the game is no longer than 3 hours.

Or worse, buy the game, play 2h, refund it and then watch the rest on youtube. The entire point of similar indie games is we often buy them to support the devs even if they don't have the most hours/$ of entertainment. DRM goes totally against this principle.

 

[DangerMouse]

It is anti consumer. Your purchases with Denuvo are in the hands of an almost unknown third party, who really shouldn't have any say in your useage of your game, and their amazon server. It limits your ownership even further, in what already is a less then ideal situation.

If I pay for my purchase, then Denuvo and their servers should have f*cking nothing to do with what I do after that. As a paying customer, I reject the idea that I should have to deal with what pirates do. That's between the publishers/devs and the pirates, not me.

Yup.

 

[Syriel]

It actively prevents or limitd a few kinds of modding. It has several issues running on offline mode and the games are doomed of the servers go offline in the future. Not to talk about possible imcompabilities im the future with new OSes.
It is anti-consumer.

It is anti consumer. Your purchases with Denuvo are in the hands of an almost unknown third party, who really shouldn't have any say in your useage of your game, and their amazon server. It limits your ownership even further, in what already is a less then ideal situation.

If I pay for my purchase, then Denuvo and their servers should have f*cking nothing to do with what I do after that. As a paying customer, I reject the idea that I should have to deal with what pirates do. That's between the publishers/devs and the pirates, not me.

I hope none of you buy anything from PSN. Otherwise you are supporting exactly what you call anti-consumer behaviour.

It isn't doomed. The larger consumer population likely doesn't care as much as what DRM solution a game is using as GAF or people of other forums. They just want to play a great game.

As shown by the PSN example, you are correct. Most people just don't care.

Terrible news for game preservation for future generations.

Just because a game has DRM does not mean it cannot be preserved.

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Good luck convincing the developers to do so, that sure has worked out in the past.

The number of games on GOG show that it has worked out well in the past.

Games for Windows Live was a catastrophe, you do know that some games can't even be bought anymore? They ran out of keys for games like Fable 3, and even Fuel can't be purchased anymore because of a similar problem.

This is the danger of having these DRM measures in place.

I'm still sceptical of attempting to trust Microsoft again with their Windows 10 Store.

Running out of inventory to sell is not a DRM problem.

 

[xVodevil]

After reading all these Denuvo discussions, it's funny to reflect on Splinter Cell Chaos Theory with it's StarForce 3 protection that was unsupported and unplayable on Win7, until it was released digitally, and the official response from Ubi support was go find the Reloaded crack...
These DRMs are clearly anti-consumer, it only hurts honest gamers. Those pirates won't rush to buy these games... they'll rather wait for that crack, since most of them never cared for that game, they just wanted to try/play it if available... Or down the line, if there is no crack some might grab it for dirt cheap on a sale, which clearly won't make up for those "lost" sales around launch.
Luckily I've never had any problems with this Denuvo, though I clearly prefer DRM free (GOG) games above all! And since someone mentioned The Withcher 3, that is an excellent example of a DRM free game selling extremely well. That game was like fighting for your money, and rewarding it with insanely rich content.

 

[Real_Madrid]

i'm gonna wait for a steam sale then, no way i'm paying this much for a 3 hour game. i would have paid 10 dollars no more. i hate denuvo

So you hate Denuvo because you can't pirate it?

At least someone honest then.

 

[More_Badass]

Personally I care way about developers not getting their game pirated than people being annoyed about DRM.

And also, the people touting how Limbo sold millions of copies so why are the devs worried? You do realize Limbo came out years ago, and took over a year to reach a million copies sold. Considering that today a big indie hit like Stardew Valley or Rocket League can reach a million sales within mere months, Limbo wasn't exactly a huge instant super success that people seem to think it was

 

[horkrux]

Games for Windows Live was a catastrophe, you do know that some games can't even be bought anymore? They ran out of keys for games like Fable 3, and even Fuel can't be purchased anymore because of a similar problem.

This is the danger of having these DRM measures in place.

I'm still sceptical of attempting to trust Microsoft again with their Windows 10 Store.

lol what does GfWL have to do with the game not being sold digitally anymore. That can also happen to games without any kind of DRM. You can still buy the retail version btw.

 

[ChryZ]

People who think Denuvo is nothing to worry about should try to play a SafeDisc or SecuROM "protected" game on WIndows10.

 

[Lord Error]

Smart move by the devs here, I'm sure a lot of people would have justified themselves pirating it due to it being short and having very low replayability.

I think so too. And it's not like Playdead won't release a DRM free version sometime in the future. Limbo has seen releases on many platforms in many forms.

What's stopping them from watching it on YouTube, then? A full playthrough of the game is no longer than 3 hours.

If you're actually interesting in solving puzzles and problems in the game, there's no point doing that.

 

[Real_Madrid]

After reading all these Denuvo discussions, it's funny to reflect on Splinter Cell Chaos Theory with it's StarForce 3 protection that was unsupported and unplayable on Win7, until it was released digitally, and the official response from Ubi support was go find the Reloaded crack...
These DRMs are clearly anti-consumer, it only hurts honest gamers. Those pirates won't rush to buy these games... they'll rather wait for that crack, since most of them never cared for that game, they just wanted to try/play it if available... Or down the line, if there is no crack some might grab it for dirt cheap on a sale, which clearly won't make up for those "lost" sales around launch.
Luckily I've never had any problems with this Denuvo, though I clearly prefer DRM free (GOG) games above all! And since someone mentioned The Withcher 3, that is an excellent example of a DRM free game selling extremely well. That game was like fighting for your money, and rewarding it with insanely rich content.

You can play bingo with Witcher 3 being in Denuvo/piracy threads.

 

[LelouchZero]

Running out of inventory to sell is not a DRM problem.

Steam - Fable III Availability on Steam

As many of you will already know, in August 2013 the Games For Windows Live Marketplace was closed[support.xbox.com]. This shut down means that product keys for Fable 3 and its associated DLC are no longer being created, and therefore the game and its DLC cannot be purchased from GFWL or Steam. Of course, if you have already purchased the game you’ll still be able to download and play it.

How is it not a DRM problem?

The solution to this would be for the developers to transition the game over the Steam Works, as many other games did, but for this game that did not happen.

 

[More_Badass]

What's stopping them from watching it on YouTube, then? A full playthrough of the game is no longer than 3 hours.

That's like watching Interstellar through Vine clips instead of IMAX. A game is more than just watching it passively. Sometimes the pacing, atmosphere, and such only really work when you're playing

 

[RealityCheque]

Damn. Already got this earlier and now I hear about denuvo.

Hopefully there'll be a GOG version down the line without DRM that supports their steam connect service.

 

[flaxknuckles]

Damn. Already got this earlier and now I hear about denuvo.

Hopefully there'll be a GOG version down the line without DRM that supports their steam connect service.

GOG am cry

 

[CecilRousso]

I hope none of you buy anything from PSN. Otherwise you are supporting exactly what you call anti-consumer behaviour.

I'm not, since I focus on PC games, but it's not the same thing.

I accept having a server depency to the retailer I buy from, even if that also is stretching it a bit.

Buy from Steam - Be depedent on Steam servers.
Buy from PSN - Be dependent on Sony's server.

But what I absolutely reject is the idea that additional parties should also have a say in whether or not I'm allowed to play the game I payed for.

When that scenario happens, then the game is a Games As A Service-game to me, and as such, if I do buy it (which I will only do with much hesitation), I will pay much less for it, and I won't buy in the release window.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

There's nothing inherently wrong with taking a stand against Denuvo. Regardless of where you stand vis-a-vis it as a moment-to-moment form of DRM, there is the fact that you cannot run a Denuvo-protected game without first being online, which may be an issue in in the not-too-distant future should the service be discontinued. One need only look to GFWL to see how short-sighted some publishers are -- "fire and forget", as the saying goes.

This is a one time thing though in installation right? Because:

Will Total War: WARHAMMER require you to be always online?
No.
The game will require initial online authentication via Steam during installation as per all Total War games since EMPIRE. At this point Denuvo will also automatically authenticate.
You can then decide to play in offline mode if you wish.
Other games sometimes need to be always online, but this isn’t a Denuvo or Total War: WARHAMMER requirement and doesn’t apply to this game.

That very much implies to me that it isn't every time you want to play the game, but only once.

 

[xealo]

What's stopping them from watching it on YouTube, then? A full playthrough of the game is no longer than 3 hours.

Gaming as a medium is about more than just passive observation. Interactivity is a key part of why. Sure, I could watch story games on Youtube, but playing brings something no Youtube video can.

 

[Joey Ravn]

If you're actually interesting in solving puzzles and problems in the game, there's no point doing that.

In general terms, of course not. But my reply was directed at a very specific case:

... a lot of people would have justified themselves pirating it due to it being short and having very low replayability.

You are telling me those people weren't willing to pay $20 for a short game that lacks replayability. I'd say that not many of them will get the game because it can't be pirated. In this specific case, Denuvo makes very little difference.

Edit:

Gaming as a medium is about more than just passive observation. Interactivity is a key part of why. Sure, I could watch story games on Youtube, but playing brings something no Youtube video can.

Same answer as before. If all those people aren't willing to pay $20 for the game, then they are probably not very interested in it. Downloading a pirated copy or watching it on YouTube has the same results: Playdead gets nothing from that "sale". The nature of gaming as a medium has nothing to do with this.

 

[Syriel]

Steam - Fable III Availability on Steam


How is it not a DRM problem?

The solution to this would be for the developers to transition the game over the Steam Works, as many other games did, but for this game that did not happen.

Publisher decides to stop making copies of a game available for sale.

That is a decision that has zero to do with DRM. It happens with digital, physical, DRM and non-DRM games.

 

[ghostjoke]

You can play bingo with Witcher 3 being in Denuvo/piracy threads.

A game entirely DRM free being a huge success, released on a popular storefront that is DRM free, all owned by a mother-company which was basically built on what happens when copyright goes astray and preservation is ignored. No fucking shit it's brought up. It's what happens when you 1) care long term, and 2) treat your customers with respect and not as opportunistic thieves.

 

[xVodevil]

You can play bingo with Witcher 3 being in Denuvo/piracy threads.

GTA V, Fallout 4 these sold far better only on PC, still no Denuvo on sight at all. But content rich all the way.

 

[The Iron Yuppie]

Stil picking it up day one.

Denuvo has never giving me any issues in any game that uses it. The moment it does is the moment I'll rage. But so far so good.

Fuck pirates.

Seconded. Yay for a reasonable response!

 

[Odrion]

Personally I care way about developers not getting their game pirated than people being annoyed about DRM.

Same.

 

[MUnited83]

I hope none of you buy anything from PSN. Otherwise you are supporting exactly what you call anti-consumer behaviour.



As shown by the PSN example, you are correct. Most people just don't care.



Just because a game has DRM does not mean it cannot be preserved.

The two things are not mutually exclusive.



The number of games on GOG show that it has worked out well in the past.



Running out of inventory to sell is not a DRM problem.

If PSN servers go down, you'll still be able to play any game you downloaded just fine, so that doesn't seem a good comparison.

The GOG comparison however, is even more terrible; a large ammount of GOG games come pre-packed with fan fixes and cracks. Many of the games wouldn't be there in the first place if they weren't cracked.

 

[Rellik]

Makes sense considering short single player experiences are probably some of the most pirated games out there.

Plus indie game too. They usually get pirated a ton.

 

[Octavianus]

Huh, lame. I was thinking about buying this, but I guess I won't.

 

[JakeD]

I'll wait for GOG or DRM free on humble store then

 

[Shredderi]

yes it's true that a thread about DRM is going to be a place where people express their opinions on DRM

Lol'd

What's stopping them from watching it on YouTube, then? A full playthrough of the game is no longer than 3 hours.

It's that short? Damn it. The reviews have been really good so I was going to day one it, but I can't spare 20e for such a short game right now. I'll look into it next month.

 

[Syriel]

I'm not, since I focus on PC games, but it's not the same thing.

I accept having a server depency to the retailer I buy from, even if that also is stretching it a bit.

Buy from Steam - Be depedent on Steam servers.
Buy from PSN - Be dependent on Sony's server.

But what I absolutely reject is the idea that additional parties should also have a say in whether or not I'm allowed to play the game I payed for.

When that scenario happens, then the game is a Games As A Service-game to me, and as such, if I do buy it (which I will only do with much hesitation), I will pay much less for it, and I won't buy in the release window.

Why accept a dependency from a retailer?

A game that uses Denuvo is dependent on Denuvo for protection regardless of where you purchase it from.

Why should Amazon, Best Buy, Steam or Wal-mart have any tie to the game you buy beyond selling it to you?

As for Sony and PSN, the reason the comparison was made is because Sony did shut down a chunk of authentication servers on PSN this generation and the Internet at large when "eh, who cares" and just kept buying from PSN.

The mass market doesn't care. And even most of the vocal anti-DRM folks don't care if it is a choice between playing the latest games or shunning a digital store that locks out purchased titles.

 

[horkrux]

People who think Denuvo is nothing to worry about should try to play a SafeDisc or SecuROM "protected" game on WIndows10.

They were way more intrusive, relying on their own drivers. That made compatibility with future windows versions pretty much a complete gamble.

 

[flaxknuckles]

GTA V, Fallout 4 these sold far better only on PC, still no Denuvo on sight at all. But content rich all the way.

GTA V does have a periodic online check though

 

[Maximo]

One less sale from me, DOOM is the only game with Denuvo that I have purchased, will be sad if DOOM which I consider a modern classic unable to boot up one day.

 

[AR9om7rt]

Genuinely surprised, considering that Limbo was DRM-Free.

I'll be waiting until this ends up on Humble I think.

 

[MineralCraver420]

Not that I'm defending Denuvo, but has there EVER been any DRM that only affected pirates and didn't also cause problems for legit consumers?

 

[roadrunn3r]

Personally I care way about developers not getting their game pirated than people being annoyed about DRM.

And also, the people touting how Limbo sold millions of copies so why are the devs worried? You do realize Limbo came out years ago, and took over a year to reach a million copies sold. Considering that today a big indie hit like Stardew Valley or Rocket League can reach a million sales within mere months, Limbo wasn't exactly a huge instant super success that people seem to think it was

I honestly wouldn't want to argue with you (I respect you a lot for your awesome indie threads) but I just don't see DRM spreading to indies too a good thing. I also don't think piracy is hurting sales in a significant way but that's just a personal opinion as I can't prove it. As for Limbo what you say is true, maybe it wasn't an instant super success like some other indies but it was a success nonetheless. Sales are sales, no matter when they happened.

 

[Syriel]

If PSN servers go down, you'll still be able to play any game you downloaded just fine, so that doesn't seem a good comparison.

1) For certain PS3 PSN titles this is not true. If PSN goes down, you can't play at all.
2) For other titles, this is only true for the existing piece of hardware. You can't move it to another piece of hardware.
3) Sony has already shut down PSN servers, making games unplayable on anything but the hardware they happened to be installed on at the time.

 

[Mohasus]

A game entirely DRM free being a huge success, released on a popular storefront that is DRM free, all owned by a mother-company which was basically built on what happens when copyright goes astray and preservation is ignored. No fucking shit it's brought up. It's what happens when you 1) care long term, and 2) treat your customers with respect and not as opportunistic thieves.

Maybe it would be an even bigger success with denuvo, maybe not. No way to know.

GTA V, Fallout 4 these sold far better only on PC, still no Denuvo on sight at all. But content rich all the way.

GTAV is a poor example, its DRM is similar to denuvo.