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[Stinkles]

I pretty much make Jackson Pollock look like Sesame Street. (Take that Big Bird).

To be fair though, I still don't get how anyone liberal or conservative can basically say this is a non-issue or "people just don't get Libya" as this directly ties to how we are viewed as a nation by our own people. At home or abroad, if it carries an American flag, you treat that land as American soil. If the fight comes to that soil, you had better be ready to defend it against any enemy, foreign or domestic. In this case, it was both.

In a way, it's much worse than invading Iraq and putting us into the longest most damaging geoplitical shitstorm in history because some Saudi radicals with Afghanistan ties blew up the world trade center.

 

[pigeon]

To be fair though, I still don't get how anyone liberal or conservative can basically say this is a non-issue or "people just don't get Libya" as this directly ties to how we are viewed as a nation by our own people. At home or abroad, if it carries an American flag, you treat that land as American soil. If the fight comes to that soil, you had better be ready to defend it against any enemy, foreign or domestic. In this case, it was both.

Sometimes people get killed defending their soil.

Right after this happened Obama sent two warships to Libya. Do you think they were there for aperitifs? It'd be nice to imagine that we can make sure nobody ever kills an American, but it's also not going to happen. What we can do is make sure anybody who does kill an American pays for it, as happened to that nice young conspirator shot in Cairo yesterday.

 

[RDreamer]

Could you point to quotes about that, because when I read the Fox story (Yeah I know... Fox), the impression I get is so different from that.

Here's where they talk about requests for backup. Shots were fired at 9:40 p.m.

Fox News has learned from sources who were on the ground in Benghazi that an urgent request from the CIA annex for military back-up during the attack on the U.S. consulate and subsequent attack several hours later was denied by U.S. officials -- who also told the CIA operators twice to "stand down" rather than help the ambassador's team when shots were heard at approximately 9:40 p.m. in Benghazi on Sept. 11.

At this time is when the emails fox and others put out the other day were happening:

At 4:05 p.m. Eastern time [RDREAMER NOTE: This is at approximately 10:05 PM Libyan time], on September 11, an alert from the State Department Operations Center was issued to a number government and intelligence agencies. Included were the White House Situation Room, the office of the Director of National Intelligence, and the FBI.

"US Diplomatic Mission in Benghazi Under Attack" -- "approximately 20 armed people fired shots; explosions have been heard as well. Ambassador Stevens, who is currently in Benghazi, and four COM (Chief of Mission/embassy) personnel are in the compound safe haven."

At this point we're talking about the mob described in this story

He and others described the attackers as a mob rather than a team of commandos. It included some organized elements, they said, but its intelligence was less than precise. A caretaker at the villa adjacent to the U.S. mission said the attackers initially threatened to raid his compound until he and a guard barred the gate and shouted: "Private property! Women inside!"

Libyan guards who served as the security force at the U.S. compound said the mob was made up of disparate types, some who appeared to be experienced fighters and others who were not. There were long-bearded men whose faces were obscured by scarves in the style of practiced militants and called each other "sheik." But there also were younger men, some who looked like teenagers with wispy beards on their uncovered faces.

The mob is also described here:

“The attackers were disorganized; some seemed more interested in looting. Some who claimed to have participated joined the attack as it began or after it was under way. There is no evidence of rehearsals, they never got into the safe room . . . never took any hostages, didn’t bring explosives to blow the safe room door, and didn’t use a car bomb to blow the gates.”

...

“It was a flash mob with weapons,” is how the senior official described the attackers. The mob included members of the Ansar al-Sharia militia, about four members of al-Qaeda in the Maghreb, and members of the Egypt-based Muhammad Jamal network, along with other unarmed looters.

The fighting ended:

At 4:54 p.m. [RDREAMER NOTE: This would be 10:54 Libyan time], less than an hour later, another alert: "the firing... in Benghazi...has stopped...A response team is on site attempting to locate COM (embassy) personnel."

So, during those attacks things got hairy, but Stevens ended up safe at this time. One person did die in the initial attack, though, according to the fox story:

The rescue team from the CIA annex evacuated those who remained at the consulate and Sean Smith, who had been killed in the initial attack. They could not find the ambassador and returned to the CIA annex at about midnight.

Then, the fighting presumably stopped:

U.S. officials argue that there was a period of several hours when the fighting stopped before the mortars were fired at the annex, leading officials to believe the attack was over.

The emails from the other story say the same thing. Firing had ended, and the attack was over. Nevertheless, backups were there a little later:

A motorcade of dozens of Libyan vehicles, some mounted with 50 caliber machine guns, belonging to the February 17th Brigades, a Libyan militia which is friendly to the U.S., finally showed up at the CIA annex at approximately 3 a.m. An American Quick Reaction Force sent from Tripoli had arrived at the Benghazi airport at 2 a.m. (four hours after the initial attack on the consulate) and was delayed for 45 minutes at the airport because they could not at first get transportation, allegedly due to confusion among Libyan militias who were supposed to escort them to the annex, according to Benghazi sources.

According to this we had a quick response team and a Libyan militia there at approximately 2:45AM and 3AM.

Tyrone Woods was later joined at the scene by fellow former Navy SEAL Glen Doherty, who was sent in from Tripoli as part of a Global Response Staff or GRS that provides security to CIA case officers and provides countersurveillance and surveillance protection. They were killed by a mortar shell at 4 a.m. Libyan time, nearly seven hours after the attack on the consulate began

Now the mortal shell that killed Stevens and the seals happened at 4AM.

 

[REV 09]

the most important thing about Libya is that we helped the locals overthrow a dictator without getting dragged into another war. Libya is a plus for Obama.

The Benghazi event was a tragic, terrorist event. Just like any other.

 

[Jackben]

The sad thing about this thread is that by A) citing Fox when there are credible sources available, B) loading it with insulting hyperbole such as 'if you don't think this is bigger than Watergate then you are literally smoking some potent shit' and C) implying that Leon Panetta is in telepathic communication with you, you have torpedoed what might have been a valuable discussion in the very first post.

If you are hoping to achieve anything other than getting attention, you should really read this post Pctx.

 

[Angry Grimace]

People sure are great at detecting sarcasm in this thread.

It's called Poe's Law. It's impossible to tell if someone is being serious or parody posting when they say something super extreme unless there's some outright indication of intent.

 

[RDreamer]

the most important thing about Libya is that we helped the locals overthrow a dictator without getting dragged into another war. Libya is a plus for Obama.

The Benghazi event was a tragic, terrorist event. Just like any other.

Not only that, but their citizens like us now. They marched in support of America after this attack. They also marched into the compounds of extremists and took over in order to say enough is enough. This is precisely the situation we want in those countries over there. Yes there will be violent terrorist attacks in retaliation, because they feel their way of life going, and their power slipping. That's reality. Hopefully we stop more of them in the future, and no more have to die.

 

[xxracerxx]

Pctx, I hope you don't live in the valley because I have no idea how you survive if you don't live in the more conservative parts of Oregon.

 

[Jenov]

Stop watching Fox News

 

[True Underdog]

I am a marketing brand and my opinion has a niche market.

So wouldn't it have been easier to PM the 4 or 5 people in your niche market?

 

[Technosteve]

Rdreamer this not the narrative that The OP has led me to believe.

 

[Duffyside]

GAF is being eerily, suspiciously flippant about this whole thing.

 

[akira28]

fuck all this shit. Give me my Black President.

 

[Pctx]

So wouldn't it have been easier to PM the 4 or 5 people in your niche market?

According to the ToS, that may be considered spam.

Rdreamer this not the narrative that The OP has led me to believe.

True.

GAF is being eerily, suspiciously flippant about this whole thing.

Yes they are, but attacking me is more fun that paying attention to the story.

fuck all this shit. Give me my Black President.

Wat?

 

[Allard]

GAF is being eerily, suspiciously flippant about this whole thing.

Because the 'outrage' deserves it. I want to know the truth, and I am not going to get it from political smear machines and their actions have only diluted, perhaps corrupted the very news regarding the situation itself before internal investigations are done. They went in guns blazing looking for a scandal and when they couldn't find one they manufactured one on the spot. There may very well be something to investigate and worry about but this kind of crap does absolutely nothing but make it harder and harder to know the truth.

 

[Stinkles]

GAF is being eerily, suspiciously flippant about this whole thing.

Because it is a bunch of fucking trumped up nonsense. At the bottom of this mire is a blue dress with a stain on it.

 

[Cyan]

GAF is being eerily, suspiciously flippant about this whole thing.

:O

GAF was in on it!

 

[Duffyside]

Because it is a bunch of fucking trumped up nonsense. At the bottom of this mire is a blue dress with a stain on it.

See? Dead Americans are not the same as blowjob infidelity. Nor perjury.

 

[RDreamer]

The other problem with backup during that initial upheaval and/or possible bomb strikes that people are talking about is that you have to remember what was going on at that same time in the middle east. Cairo really was having protests about the video, and that at least partially seems to have inspired part of the mob in Libya. Libya is an incredibly armed country. Everyone has guns, and guns are everywhere, because they just got through a revolution. Now any mob, whether violent or not, is likely to have these, and this mob was indeed shouting at least partially about the video. This mob did turn violent, yes, and the ambassador seems to have hid at this time in a safe haven.

Now, it shouldn't take a genius to see why bombing, or doing any hasty action to a mob like this would be a very fucking bad idea. You could essentially ignite a war in the middle east with an action like that, because it could be seen as bombing people protesting over a video defaming their prophet. No matter how much you protest, that's how it would be seen to them.

On top of this, Libya is a fledgling democracy struggling and trying to get control into the government's hands. They need legitimacy, and the US has to help them gain it for their future, their citizen's future, and for our future. That's likely part of why the scuffle was left to the security team at the embassy. That's also, again, why you don't just bomb things right off the bat. Cooperation with the new government is key.

 

[Chris R]

It's called Poe's Law. It's impossible to tell if someone is being serious or parody posting when they say something super extreme unless there's some outright indication of intent.

Do I need to add a /s after my post then?

 

[Stinkles]

See? Dead Americans are not the same as blowjob infidelity. Nor perjury.

Please direct me to your outrage regarding Iraq, which was CAUSED by the previous administration, directly. As opposed to what you're claiming here, which is, even in a worst case scenario, that a timeline was fudged for political reasons. Or direct me to your outrage when the republican congress voted to reduce funding for diplomatic security.

Oh and you ignored the point. The investigation I was "flippantly" referring to, was a snipe hunt. Like this garbage.

 

[Mengy]

The other problem with backup during that initial upheaval and/or possible bomb strikes that people are talking about is that you have to remember what was going on at that same time in the middle east. Cairo really was having protests about the video, and that at least partially seems to have inspired part of the mob in Libya. Libya is an incredibly armed country. Everyone has guns, and guns are everywhere, because they just got through a revolution. Now any mob, whether violent or not, is likely to have these, and this mob was indeed shouting at least partially about the video. This mob did turn violent, yes, and the ambassador seems to have hid at this time in a safe haven.

Now, it shouldn't take a genius to see why bombing, or doing any hasty action to a mob like this would be a very fucking bad idea. You could essentially ignite a war in the middle east with an action like that, because it could be seen as bombing people protesting over a video defaming their profit. No matter how much you protest, that's how it would be seen to them.

On top of this, Libya is a fledgling democracy struggling and trying to get control into the government's hands. They need legitimacy, and the US has to help them gain it for their future, their citizen's future, and for our future. That's likely part of why the scuffle was left to the security team at the embassy. That's also, again, why you don't just bomb things right off the bat. Cooperation with the new government is key.

Well said.

 

[pigeon]

Yes they are, but attacking me is more fun that paying attention to the story.

The data suggests it's also more productive.

 

[Ponn]

See? Dead Americans are not the same as blowjob infidelity. Nor perjury.

Then tell conservative news stations and pundits to stop calling everything a Watergate.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Not every decision made will be the correct decision. I am still confused as to what the outrage is really about

The right's fanatical desperation to create controversy to score political points.

 

[Technosteve]

RDreamer presents a nuanced argument for the events 9/11/12. OP I get offended by your unprepared defense of your (fox news) position.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Thread backfire-gate

 

[Jimothy]

the most important thing about Libya is that we helped the locals overthrow a dictator without getting dragged into another war. Libya is a plus for Obama.

The Benghazi event was a tragic, terrorist event. Just like any other.

Even though I hate the concept of foreign intervention, I have to admit Obama handled the Libya War rather deftly.

 

[eBay Huckster]

RDreamer presents a nuanced argument for the events 9/11/12. OP I get offended by your unprepared defense of your (fox news) position.

hey, cut pctx some slack, he's just being TOTALLY INDEPENDENT

 

[heliosRAzi]

Thread backfire-gate

It took almost two hours for this to be declared. TWO FUCKING HOURS!

 

[eBay Huckster]

It took almost two hours for this to be declared. TWO FUCKING HOURS!

Two hours? That's almost two weeks!

 

[Mercury Fred]

It took almost two hours for this to be declared. TWO FUCKING HOURS!

Well played!

 

[pigeon]

Two hours? That's almost two weeks!

What I'm really concerned about is that it looks like there were some reports of thread backfire as early as the first page. Why has it taken this long for it to become the official story? Is there some sort of oversight committee we can convene?

 

[RDreamer]

It took almost two hours for this to be declared. TWO FUCKING HOURS!

lol

 

[Cyan]

Well played!

I'm a little concerned at your flippancy here.

 

[Dude Abides]

What I'm really concerned about is that it looks like there were some reports of thread backfire as early as the first page. Why has it taken this long for it to become the official story? Is there some sort of oversight committee we can convene?

It's not clear, but what is clear is that this is Pctx's swan song.

 

[Effnine]

It took almost two hours for this to be declared. TWO FUCKING HOURS!

 

[Snowden's Secret]

So I've been following this attack very closely since it happened, and I've yet, even once, see someone answer this very critical question:

So what?

Let's assume that Obama personally knew it was a terrorist attack the very moment it happened, and not a protest. That changes... what? What is the end game here? Surely this "cover up" is the means and not the ends if this is such a big deal?

 

[Cyan]

It's not clear, but what is clear is that this is Pctx's swan song.

Yup, he's done and I'm wondering what exactly made him do this.

 

[Jackben]

What I'm really concerned about is that it looks like there were some reports of thread backfire as early as the first page. Why has it taken this long for it to become the official story? Is there some sort of oversight committee we can convene?

I've got confirmation that he posted this information in his other personal pctx politics thread before putting it forth in a thread to the greater neoGAF community. A thread that he was lambasted similarly in to the point of embarrassment.

If you people who don't think that this is worse than go ly dow gate, backstabbo in the cabo in terms of cover ups by an OP, you guys/gals are literally smoking some potent shit.

 

[xxracerxx]

It took almost two hours for this to be declared. TWO FUCKING HOURS!

Using Pctx's own words:

these mother fuckers need to be held accountable for this shit:

 

[Mercury Fred]

Yup, he's done and I'm wondering what exactly made him do this.

Yup, he'll be nowhere to be seen in 2016. But who made him do it, WHO??

 

[heliosRAzi]

RDreamer has been calling him out for Monday Night Quarterbacking

 

[SquiddyCracker]

No one should care.
And by no one, I'm talking about non-military personnel and strategists.

 

[B-Dubs]

RDreamer presents a nuanced argument for the events 9/11/12. OP I get offended by your unprepared defense of your (fox news) position.

Yup, RDreamer is the MVP of this thread. The OP...the OP backfired hard.

 

[Cyan]

So I've been following this attack very closely since it happened, and I've yet, even once, see someone answer this very critical question:

So what?

Let's assume that Obama personally knew it was a terrorist attack the very moment it happened, and not a protest. That changes... what? What is the end game here? Surely this "cover up" is the means and not the ends if this is such a big deal?

Well, that's why Pctx is excited about this. The GOP was trying really hard to spin the video/terrorism confusion into some kind of shocking coverup, but there was just nothing there. The whole thing made no sense.

So now they're hoping Stand Down-gate will resonate as something the administration might've been trying to cover up. *shrug*

 

[marrec]

I've got confirmation that he posted this information in his other personal pctx politics thread before putting it forth in a thread to the greater neoGAF community. A thread that he was lambasted similarly in to the point of embarrassment.

If you people who don't think that this is worse than go ly dow gate, backstabbo in the cabo in terms of cover ups by an OP, you guys/gals are literally smoking some potent shit.

Guys, you are both totally wrong, here's the timeline of events:

12:24) Pctx starts a thread titled "Pctx presents: Libya. The official thread of who knew what, when and why it happened". At the same time I'm slacking off at work and RDdreamer has already begun his response.

12:25) dave is ok replies with what seems like a snarky post, but this is unconfirmed. I think it's obvious at this point that the backfire has already begun, nobody is ready to call it yet though.

12:25 and 30 seconds) RDdreamer has finished his response, but is waiting patiently for the right time.

12:31) I send a PM to Pctx with a picture of a Aguirre and BFFs caption and also tell him that there are signs of thread backfire and we need help.

12:32) Pctx denies my request for help.

12:51) There have been many eyewitness reports that show many snarky replies at this point, there is still no response to requests for backup.

1:56) RDdreamer finally lets loose his shelling on the thread, Pctx posts to let us know he's okay.

2:09) Mercury Fred FINALLY calls the thread backfire.

So as you can see, there's definitely something fishy going on here.

 

[B-Dubs]

There was something wrong with the original sourcing, obviously the thread required better sourcing and it looks like someone may have called for more of it, to prevent a backfire. The question should be this: Why wasn't better sourcing provided in the first place in order to prevent a backfire? Where was the extra sourcing? Why were calls for better sourcing ignored? Why aren't these questions being answered? We ask, you decide.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

X-posting as this really does deserve its own thread.

From Fox, but every news agency is picking this up..... these mother fuckers need to be held accountable for this shit:

Need to be held accountable for some terrorists attacking an embassy?

C'mon, I'm not trying to brush off the attack altogether, but way, way too much has been made out of this, and with only one goal-- besmirch the President's rather excellent record against terrorism.

It's a non story. At most, it's emabarassing how they fumbled the message or played their cards close in an attempt to make it look less embarassing.

 

[Raist]

Could you guys please have a presidential election every year?
It's so entertaining to watch.