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Pctx presents: Libya. The official thread of who knew what, when and why it happened
- Thread starter Pctx
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Incoming Drudge Report/Fox News links. Cannot wait!
Good.
No one else is covering it. I would've thought that they would've but apparently they suck.
Those "former SEALS" are dead. TThey aren't making any claim. It's some bullshit unnamed source.
Excellent conclusion based on rational premises.
Pctx,
you don't give a shit about Libya, or anything else happening in the middle east.
if you did, You'd be aware that its a proxy war that both the democrats and the republicans have thrown US/international taxpayers into, in the region. Its just for money, thats literally it, as it always has been. The civillians of the countries infected or on the list(Syria and coming soon Iran) are paying the price with their lives. Outside forces, funded and supported by UN/Nato + USA & Co, are killing people for working in the damned post office. And by kill, I mean throw off of the roof, or whatever high floor they can find their way to.
If you want to care, care. But its disgusting that you, and the likes of you, are pretending to care for a handful of people, when thousands have been killed in the name of you and me, yet where was Bush, where was Obama, and where is Romney standing out against proxy battles, and the further tarnishing of the USA's reputation.
You make me sick. You guys are all acting like this is some major issue. Fuck this single incident, in all fairness, fuck it. Whatever happened happened exactly the way the Military wanted it to happen, its always the case. I can't feel any sympahty for those involved in such a clear case of lies, when there are truly innocent people getting killed with my taxes. No WMD's or Chemical Weapon cache? Oh well, spread democracy and fail for 10 years at god knows how much life and less importantly, money, was wasted over Republican ideas, or Democratic ideas. Its the same batch of shit, one just wants to remove healthcare and womens rights from the USA population.
God damn.
you don't give a shit about Libya, or anything else happening in the middle east.
if you did, You'd be aware that its a proxy war that both the democrats and the republicans have thrown US/international taxpayers into, in the region. Its just for money, thats literally it, as it always has been. The civillians of the countries infected or on the list(Syria and coming soon Iran) are paying the price with their lives. Outside forces, funded and supported by UN/Nato + USA & Co, are killing people for working in the damned post office. And by kill, I mean throw off of the roof, or whatever high floor they can find their way to.
If you want to care, care. But its disgusting that you, and the likes of you, are pretending to care for a handful of people, when thousands have been killed in the name of you and me, yet where was Bush, where was Obama, and where is Romney standing out against proxy battles, and the further tarnishing of the USA's reputation.
You make me sick. You guys are all acting like this is some major issue. Fuck this single incident, in all fairness, fuck it. Whatever happened happened exactly the way the Military wanted it to happen, its always the case. I can't feel any sympahty for those involved in such a clear case of lies, when there are truly innocent people getting killed with my taxes. No WMD's or Chemical Weapon cache? Oh well, spread democracy and fail for 10 years at god knows how much life and less importantly, money, was wasted over Republican ideas, or Democratic ideas. Its the same batch of shit, one just wants to remove healthcare and womens rights from the USA population.
God damn.
Perhaps they're waiting for more actual information rather than running wild with unnamed sources given solely to Fox news.
I don't want to have to wade through Fox News' jumbled mess of a freaking article. If he uses something like that again I probably won't bother. Seriously, who wrote the one in this thread? It's a confusing, misleading mess.Well, that was dramatic. Anyway, came to post this although doesnt seem like the actual situation is being discussed:
http://www.9news.com/news/article/2...Obama-on-Libya-attack?odyssey=tab|topnews|bc|
He was asked directly about the calls for help going unanswered and didnt respond to the question. Video at the link
Call it whatever you want. What happened in Libya was disgusting, as civil humans, everyone should have stood up and made some hard decisions about the course in that area of the world. You want to condemn the president, condemn him, the UN/Nato and everyone involved for something truly evil.
This issue? its just political, which is why its severely irritating. They dont care about the lives there, they just care about getting their gotcha moment for their mormon, which is absolutely below bottom feeding territory. Thousands of people die with the international communities blood on their hands, but because this one isolated, muddy, event happens, now its cause to complain or investigate? Please. Its horseshit.
Ask a republican how many civillians died in Iraq/Afghanistan for no reason. And compare that to today...and ask where is their complaint?
nonsense.
Anticitizen One
Banned
i wonder if Pctx could even find libya on a map
Maybe it's because there isn't enough information to actually have a story yet. Or maybe there is no story. Seriously, if there was a story EVERYONE would be covering it.
You are pathetic and petty. I will address your post in full later.
EDIT: Ok whatever, I have no idea what that post said so whatever.
Full of what?
This being a 100% political issue? During voting season? Proxy Or illegal wars that no one seems to care about. This story has more press than any of the horrors happening there around the clock. If its life loss that is the issue, it sure doesn't seem to be the case for everything that has happened and is happening now.
Truth is the truth. People trying to make this an issue, trying so hard without any actual information, are glossing over the entire tragedy in the middle east for this one political issue. As I said, if you want to care, care. But don't make this insignificant drop in the hat a mountain. It really isn't. The people there knew the risks. Unlike someone who gets bombed for getting a drink of water in a 3 block radius of a possible terror target.
This "STORY" doesn't even have any concrete information for fucks sake. Concrete information is available for all the rest of the deaths. But nope, no noise from the GOP.
There is absolutely nothing petty about what I posted. If you care, you care. There is no giant trend of caring about what is going on in the middle east outside of which terrorist faction, sorry, rebels, is selling the USA oil of the shores of Libya. Petty is grasping at straws to make a story out of absolutely nothing compared to the gigantic tragedy that happened in Libya, that will happen in Syria, and god forbid Iran. This is pick and choose chicken shit in light of an election, is all this is. Life is life, and so far, the USA, with my taxes, has wasted a shit ton of it. You want to blame Obama, great. Blame him, try him for whatever. I just hope that you turn the clock back and put all these people to task for the loss of life during their time in office. Give those that died their fair chance at seeing the people responsible tried for their actions.
I'll vote for you if you do that, but you wont, as this is purely political for you.
This is a fair assessment. I apologize if it came off as some sort of tude towards you, but I'm calm. Just calling this exactly what it is. The issue itself, to care about, is so damn contradictory to what is actually going on. I know the agenda behind the OP, it just needs to come to light why this is important, and the rest of the dead aren't worth ink to print.
Calm yourself I miss read your post. I thought you were going off on some kind of crazy UN conspiracy for a second. I edited my post for a reason.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
No, you are.
I love how Pctx is so sincerely outraged about all of the Obama administration's failings in this matter that he's taking the time to talk about it in a sensitive and decent manner in a thread title that starts with the not-at-all bombastic words of Pctx presents:. This isn't a movie presentation.
What exactly are you presenting? Apart from regurgitating the half-formed views of a media conglomerate, you're not facilitating any discussion nor are you interested in it. You were told that this is something to make political hay out of and you're doing it at the expense of some basic decency. You may not be able to admit it but you don't give a damn that lives were lost. You simply wanted the opportunity to parade your self righteousness in a public forum so that you can feel good about yourself.
What exactly are you presenting? Apart from regurgitating the half-formed views of a media conglomerate, you're not facilitating any discussion nor are you interested in it. You were told that this is something to make political hay out of and you're doing it at the expense of some basic decency. You may not be able to admit it but you don't give a damn that lives were lost. You simply wanted the opportunity to parade your self righteousness in a public forum so that you can feel good about yourself.
The right wing media has had very little to criticize about Obama's Neocon-lite foreign policy until this little fuck up, so they're champing at the bit to make it look like a huge scandal.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I think these are the main points:
- This happened because Obama is weak, his policies are indirectly to blame.
- Him and his administration took way too long to clear up the situation.
- His response to this attack wasn't strong enough.
What Obama should have done for points 1, 2, and 3, is what Romney would have done, and will do if he is elected, e.g:
- Have strong foreign policies.
- Not dawdle in situations such as these
- Respond swiftly and with military force (e.g, invade another country) if something like this happens
EIGHT DAYS
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The main point is "vote Romney."
He'll just pull out a "Obama mishandled Sandy" thread next week when he finally realizes the public doesn't either understand Benghazi or see any kind of "scandal" in it.
Delusibeta
Banned
This is because it's a non-issue that only deluded liars (translation into American English: "conservatives") is circlejerking over in an attempt to smear Obama's name, without considering that there was absolutely no way of preventing it without engaging in another pointless, life-consuming, full scale war.
He probably didn't know the answer and didn't want to be trapped in a "lie" if it turns out that people on the ground didn't act for whatever reason. The CIA has said those reports aren't true..
See this guy gets it. I'm pretty sure Romney is behind this whole thing in the first place. Arming the terrorists and/or making the mean youtube, whichever we're saying happened now. High five.
Many people in special forces when they retire take on roles within the civilian side of government as professional security. Government tends to be very eager to keep them around even if it isn't for covert ops anymore.
I would just like to know why we sat there for 7 hours and watched it all happen and did nothing when we had Forces an hour away etc. Obama doesn't care about killing civilians in Yemen and Pakistan so why is it such a concern in Libya.
Well, let's go down the list:
#1: Most of the security requests being cited by Fox and their "investigation" came from Tripoli, not Benghazi.
#2: Congress cut funding for embassy security, so budgets were tight.
#3: Related to #2, note that 24 hours after the attack, our response was to deploy ~50 marines to the embassies in order to increase security. This just reenforces the point I made above, as it shows that the state department was so strapped for resources that the defense department resources had to be used to provide additional security instead of resources from the State Dept.
#4: In response to the attacks, the US increased security at the embassies and started an investigation into what went wrong, who denied the security request, and why and how it happened, so that it doesn't happen again. They are also investigating
#5: There was a CIA site in the area (which was revealed thanks to republicans in congress not knowing or caring about proper security protocol. Thanks for spilling classified info on national television, guys!), which likely explains the muddled response in the immediate aftermath of the attacks. CIA, Defense Dept, and State Dept were all butting heads.
#6: It is normally up to the hosting country's military to secure the embassies and consulates of foreign nations. That is because you can't have diplomatic officials from a country bringing their own country's military along as security. It ceases to be a diplomatic relationship at that point. The Libyan government is just as (actually, more) responsible for the failure to secure the embassy, which is why their interim president apologized to us.
#7: There were TWELVE attacks on our embassies during bush's term in office. You can't be the only superpower in the world and be favorable to all 7 billion people in all countries. That's just not going to happen. Attacks are going to happen. But you can limit them through diplomacy and coalition building rather than unilateral force. Every diplomatic official knows that their line of work involves representing their country in a foreign land, and that this comes with risks, especially in dozens of politically unstable hotstop countries around the globe. They died in the promotion of peaceful relations between man, something that the world honors, and something that should not be exploited for political purposes by anyone.
What more can you ask from our government? To just send marines out to patrol a 3 mile radius surrounding the consulate 24/7? This was not some kind of widespread systematic failure or gross corruption/incompetence. All you can do is investigate what went wrong, learn from it, and move on.
I dont blame him if he does not know the answer to something. If that's indeed the case that's fine. You'd think he would know if anyone called for help and what the response was though by this point.
Think about it from his perspective. The intel says it was about the video (which was a reasonable assumption considering the other protests) then it changed midway. His political opponents now freely call him a liar because of shaky initial intel.
Next, the GOP took random, unclassified took emails from the state dept. sent hours after the incident, about militants claiming credit on twitter (later debunked) and somehow that proves the administration knew it was definitely a planned attack!
Now, Obama is being grilled as if he should personally know operational details of the CIA response on the ground..even after the CIA has said the story is bogus. This is some ridiculous shit and I never saw anyone get in Bush's face like that Denver reporter did after 9/11. Fucking partisan scumbags..
It's a joking reference to his ownage by the mods the last time he started this thread.
I wonder what they'll do this time...
The problem is that the people on the right seem to think that a terrorist attack and a demonstration for the video are mutually exclusive things. They are not. As I've posted before from this story, this was a violent flash mob, and a semi-unplanned attack. It was a group of people with disjointed reasonings.
This other story also says the same thing:
The reality isn't that the administration's story was muddled and should have been clear. The reality is that what happened in and of itself is muddled, and apparently the people on the right just can't handle that. Makes sense. They seem to view things in black and white sometimes.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
PcTx: The consummate Independent, folks.
No, the problem is that the administration pushed this spontaneous attack over a video thing for weeks. From the UN Secretary to Hillary to Jay Carney to President Obama himself. Then during the debates POTUS says he called it terrorism on day one in the Rose Garden, although when asked directly on the View and other places he goes back to "we're still doing an investigation".
So they are all over the place. Now maybe they just dont know, maybe they got conflicting info and all the rest, but there's no question there were fuck ups and they are now stonewalling til after the election.
But what I just posted said straight up that it was a spontaneous (or better put, an opportunistic) attack at least in part inspired by the video. It was also an act of terror.
These guys should have never been sent to Benghazi in the first place. Regardless of what the Administration knew, when they knew it, and what help they did or didn't decline to send.
With all the conflicting information and anonymous sources, they seemed pretty sure of themselves putting out Rice and Hillary and Obama denouncing that video. They even arrested the man who made it. Worth repeating: a guy who made a stupid video that insulted people was arrested.
Maybe it was opportunistic and an act of terrorism but that is hardly the impression they were conveying. Spontaneous, not pre meditated, over a video. The president and secretary of state went on about that video quite a bit. Do we still think the video caused 4 american deaths?
Beyond all that though, lack of security, ignoring requests for more and now denying direct calls for help during the attacks are alleged. This is a place that has been attacked before no less:
http://www.politico.com/politico44/...consulate-was-attacked-previously-137236.html
So yeah, they are pushing anything off til after the election. Which, I dont know what politician wouldnt, but still.
They put out what they had because in today's 24/7 media, if you don't have an answer right away, it hurts you more than giving what you have. Also, "they" didn't arrest the guy. Local cops did because he violated his probation by making videos.
Did you read any of the links RDreamer posted?
CIA and military have denied that. But I guess David Petraeus isn't credible now that he's in Obama's administration
Please proceed, Dash27.
Wasn't he in violation of his parole? I'm sure that whoever made the decision isn't typically investigating people on similar paroles (phrasing?) to see if they're not using the internet, but when you violate your parole and then effectively announce to the entire internet-enabled world that you have done so, I think you can reasonably expect to get picked up.
Edit: Sorry, Cyan.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Why?
NullPointer
Member
If you respond to any post Pctx, make it this one. I'd be all ears (eyes) if I thought you actually had a substantive point to make.
And just to follow up on GaimeGuy's point #2:
(source)
I don't get what's so wrong with denouncing a trash video that caused so much protests in other countries. You can sit here and deny the connection in Libya, but there were protests in Cairo and then elsewhere because of the video. And I think you weren't paying attention to Obama's speeches if you thought he was just denouncing the video. He was making a point that in the future and in a better world we need to denounce hatred like that, but they must also denounce hatred on their side.
The guy was arrested for violating the terms of his probation in a 2010 bank fraud case. He had restricted internet usage because of a fraud case wherein he used many aliases. Cry me a goddamned river.
I think that this was a violent group that could have or would have been set off by many things. Perhaps they would have got violent anyway. But they were at least in part inspired by the protests in Cairo. Perhaps not by the video, but maybe just the protests and show of power by people they connected with. I don't know. I'm not entirely sure why this matters, though.
I don't think you can say there was a lack of security. There were guards there, at least as far as I'm aware. Again, during the large attack one person died, yes, but the safe haven wasn't breached and they were at least apparently beaten back, and the attack stopped for hours.
I would say yes we do need to look into security requests and see if there was something that was missed, for future reference. Not to be callous, though, but this is one of those hindsight is 20/20 things. You can definitely say what we should have done now, but beforehand you can't say for certain what you may have done. These embassies get threats all the time, especially in these areas of the world. We have fingers in every pie around the world and funding for these pies is dropping. Again, not really giving excuses, because it is something we need to look into for future.
Do you realize how nonexistent Fox's and your credibility are on this? Does it bother you?
heliosRAzi
Banned
Make sure the reboot has pctx presents
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