Oh please, the officer with the pepper-spray casually stepped over this 'blockade' of students twice without being impeded before spraying them.
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Police at UC Davis pepper spray faces/mouths of peaceful student protesters
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Oh please, the officer with the pepper-spray casually stepped over this 'blockade' of students twice without being impeded before spraying them.
Can't really do that with a vehicle and detainees.
I'm gunna have to agree that it does
Fusebox said:
they weren't blocking those walking around. they were blocking their vehicles and tried to stop them from taking those who had already been arrested
weekend_warrior
Banned
I can't tell if you're trolling or dumb.
He steps onto the other side while pepper spraying. Most people moved before they started spraying. I don't see him go over anywhere before that. As as pointed out, that still has no bearing on a vehicle unless you're suggesting the cop car just run them over.
Cars don't run on rails.
The idea that resorting to pepper-spray was the only possible response, or the best possible response, to move a seated handful of scrawny university students is laughable.
What I don't find laughable is the amount of people who are cool with this kind of action against university students on university property.
When I first saw the videos I was disgusted by what happened and thought it was complete bullshit. but that other video clearly shows the students being idiots, they were warned more than enough times that if they didn't get out of the way of the car, they'd be sprayed. (which makes those "say it don't spray it" signs seem pretty stupid)
if a friend I was with was did something illegal and was arrested, and I got in the officers way and tried to stop him from leaving or taking my friend to the police station, I would be arrested for obstruction of justice right?
if a friend I was with was did something illegal and was arrested, and I got in the officers way and tried to stop him from leaving or taking my friend to the police station, I would be arrested for obstruction of justice right?
Hey, they saw something that they felt was unjust and tried to stop it non-violently. I do have to say, however, that you also have to realize there are consequences to your actions. If you feel strongly enough about something, getting pepper-sprayed in the face for it might be what it takes to get your point across. People have had to endure far worse to change things. I don't agree that crying about it after the fact helps your cause much. They were blocking the cops from doing their job, that doesn't make them wrong, but it means there will be a reaction.
Zoe
Member
Assuming its goal was to reach the cops on the inside of the circle, how else is it supposed to get there?
So the car should have driven over the students not seated on the concrete? You're not on the right side of this one. It was a foolish move by the students.
If I had to pick one way to move a group of people, you bet I'd choose pepper spray. Physically dragging them away is dangerous to both parties.
notworksafe
Member
What would you have done?
Leona Lewis
Banned
Unless you expect the cops to magically harness some Magneto-like telekinesis, how else do you move a bunch of belligerent kids without putting yourself (and them) in physical danger?
The fact that the majority of them got out of the way showed they were right.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
You arrest people like the state is supposed to do when people break the law.
notworksafe
Member
Arrest the entire circle? Interesting idea. But then what? Is the holding cell/area large enough to hold everyone there plus the others already detained? Should the police just take multiple trips in vans and cars to transport everyone?
Not to mention everyone had their arms locked together. How would you get to their arms/hands to put handcuffs on them?
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
.
You do realize that pepper spray is pretty standard for non-compliance, right? Try refusing to get out of your car next time you're pulled over.
http://lib.post.ca.gov/Publications/CrowdMgtGuidelines.pdf
I don't see a seated protest as posing a clear and present danger of imminent violence, obviously your viewpoints differ.
Physical grips to remove those protesters seated immediately in the path of the cruiser would have been an acceptable response imo.
Arresting those protesters seated immediately in the path of the cruiser would have been an acceptable response imo.
I don't see a seated protest as posing a clear and present danger of imminent violence, obviously your viewpoints differ.
Physical grips to remove those protesters seated immediately in the path of the cruiser would have been an acceptable response imo.
Arresting those protesters seated immediately in the path of the cruiser would have been an acceptable response imo.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
I don't know how common a practice it is for someone to be pepper sprayed for getting out of their car (I personally have never heard of it), but the job of the state isn't to bring pain to its citizens when they're out of line.
The only time violence from a police officer is acceptable is when
1. They're protecting yourself from physical harm.
2. They're protecting someone else from physical harm.
3. When someone is actively resisting a lawful arrest.
I don't really see any of these conditions being upheld, and I don't know how a citizenship can be so cavalier about physical violence toward their friends and neighbors.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
Resorting to physically arresting students when there is a mob surrounding you doesn't seem like the right course of action to me. There's something inherently more physical about that, as opposed to the spray. This situation isn't about the line of scrawny kids, it's about the huge crowd surrounding them and their mentality. More specifically, how they would react to the sight of pepper spray versus the knee-jerk "THEY'RE PHYSICALLY ATTACKING US" response.
The police seem to have warned them multiple times. They needed to get through. It's a messy issue, but a police force that is perceieved as being unable to, well, enforce their own 'reasonable' requests by the public can make things a whole lot worst in the future.
How on earth do you believe physically engaging these people represents a better alternative than pepper spray? That is precisely what pepper spray is designed to avoid.
I guess you didn't hear the part of the video where the students repeatedly yell "Set them free and we'll let you leave." Implying that if the police don't let them go, they aren't going to let them leave. That can legally be determined as threatening action.
And there are so many instances of violence escalating when police initiate physical contact, so the cops are more than justified in using pepper spray to lower the risk of violence.
And hey - the sting of pepper spray doesn't last nearly as long as an arrest record. So the kids got off easy, really.
revolverjgw
Member
Of course they pepper sprayed their mouths/faces. What else are they gonna aim it at, their butts? Hit 'em where it hurts!
Maybe, but that doesn't undermine pepper spray's ability as a deterrent. Besides, the sight of it cleared more than half that mob.
Zoe
Member
Was there?
ProfessorLobo
Banned
Yes, that's how law enforcement works. If they can hold the number of people from the War on Drugs, they can probably hold a few college students. If they are unable to do so, that probably speaks to the amount of power to the protestors vs. the cops. The Freedom Riders in the late fifties helped gain transportation rights for black people by getting hundreds of people arrested.
As to your second point, these kids aren't terminators. It's not exactly a science arresting people who are holding on to something.
thezerofire
Banned
notworksafe
Member
You should read the above posts as they have clearly stated why physical contact in the middle of a crowd that is threatening the police might not have been the best call.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
Shrug. I keep flip-flopping on this whole thing. There really wasn't a course of action they could have taken to remove the students from their vehicles path that wouldn't have resulted in some kind of outcry. Which was, of course, the whole point of the line, which really, really bothers me. I can't articulate what I really feel about this, to be honest. I'm not anywhere near well read or experienced enough with issues like this. Brute-forcing action from local police who are following orders and clear-protocol just doesn't seem like a particularly effective way of sending a message, to me. That's what it comes down to. They have the mental capacity to be better than that. But again, what would I know.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
Why? Do you think a person would rather be dragged away to a cop car or cough up blood for the next two hours?
ProfessorLobo
Banned
Why? Do you think the response would have been any different?
Zoe
Member
I don't think most people understand what getting sprayed with pepper spray at point blank would entail.
Threatening not to move is not the same as threatening the police.
I don't see anything about that crowds behaviour as evidence of "imminent violence".
None of this really explains why you think pepper spray wasn't an acceptable course of action. You advocate the use of force to separate the crowd and arrest all of the protesters, not minding the potential bruises and scrapes that will likely accompany being pinned to the ground and handcuffed (and we're completely disregarding potential risk to the cops here).
But don't use pepper spray! That hurts!
Bingo! Now you've got it.
Cough up blood? You know they don't force the can down their throats, right?
should have pepper sprayed the idiots yelling mic check
thezerofire
Banned
It's mainly about using pepper spray at a 2 foot range when it specifically calls for a >15 foot range use.
Did you see the video? At that range you might as well push the can down their throats.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
Are you really comparing the bumps and bruises of getting arrested to getting a hose of pepper spray in your throat?
Not to mention these kids aren't exactly fighting back. It wouldn't exactly be difficult business. The cops don't want to do it because it would be messy and a ton of paperwork that they'd have to deal with. This way is just so much easier.
Leona Lewis
Banned
:-|
And being pinned to the concrete, arms forced behind your back, and bound by skin-tight metallic handcuffs doesn't hurt?
Are you also saying that the temporary sting of pepper spray is worse than an arrest that will be on your record for years?
I haven't seen a pepper-spray that was more point-blank than this one.
The interview on the last page doesn't paint a nice picture of the effects.
And personally, I'd rather be treated like an LA protester instead of getting a point-blank blast of pepper-spray to the face:
That's the treatment they received AFTER being pepper-sprayed. From the last page:
What? It's liquid! Whether you spray it at 20 feet or 2 feet it gets in their eyes and mouth. That's the whole idea.
Vomiting is now coughing up blood? What's wrong with you?
thezerofire
Banned
It spreads out over distance. That's the whole point of it having a designated range. It's more concentrated if you use it at point blank range. It's not some super-soaker that keeps the same stream of water over range, it's a cone.
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