Support NeoGAF

[Baraka in the White House]

at which point manos will sit her down and explain in his most lawyerly tone why any equivalence made to any historically significant protest is a false one, and that so insidious and destructive is this particular form of parasitic anti-social indignance that a laissez faire approach to authoritarian brutality is not only permitted, but required.

she just needs an education is all. maybe an nra membership to go with it.

now if this was about a circumcision ballot: that'd be a real cause for civil unrest.

Quiet, leftist.

 

[kame-sennin]

Someone earlier posted a video of the protesters meeting the chancellor as she was walking to her car. In my opinion, the message there was a lot more potent - they weren't blocking anything, they were compliant. They merely stood there in solidarity chanting "We are peaceful." THAT's was a strong message. Of course, it doesn't result in any spicy youtube videos.

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is force to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored."

"One may well ask: How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others? The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

"Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice . . . when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress."

"Ordinarily, a person leaving a courtroom with a conviction behind him would wear a somber face. But I left with a smile. I knew that I was a convicted criminal, but I was proud of my crime."

- MLK

 

[ghst]

which is blatantly false, you can see the cop stepping over the kids pretty clearly

if they said "yeah, some powertripping flatfoot nonchalantly strolled along spraying a chemical weapon into some teenagers' faces as they sat immobile in a restricted space" violent reprisals would be all the more likely to ensue.

why are you nutjob lefties always so intent on stoking violence? it's people like you who lead to people like those kids getting a face full of pepper spray.

 

[Devolution]

Same shit, different time. The parallels are interesting. Similar causes, similar tactics used by police (wonder how bad it would be today without iphones and youtube), similar demographics involved, and the same old conservative a-holes defending and sometimes cheering on said police brutality while outright dismissing the protesters' causes. I just wonder how long we have to wait this time around until today's protesters are vindicated and most everybody looks back and says "Well no shit they were right..."

Yup, which is why I brought it up. I have a feeling some people were brought up in a way that just doesn't let them question authority or think critically about what's right in the long term even if illegal. My mother knew, even as a sheltered LDS raised in a heavily white area. She knew it was bullshit how blacks, women, and liberals were being treated. What sparked that particular round of protesting was the fact that military recruiters and young republican groups could be on campus, but they couldn't. They knew it was bullshit. Even the ones who couldn't articulate the reason for their protesting knew they were being silenced.

It's the same way with Occupy Wallstreet. You can't tell me the protestors don't recognize people being kicked out of their homes, unemployment at its worst and banks/wallstreet being bailed out for their bullshit. There's only so much the media and economists can bullshit when people are faced with the reality of the current situation, and it's not good, it's not at all fair and people are directing it at the right forces in my opinion. Deregulation of the banks and wall-street is the fucking problem. Our government is just their hand puppets, and we're all much too complacent in the gutting of our country for the pocketbooks of a few.

 

[E-Mercenary]

 

[kame-sennin]

I'm sorry, I thought I had responded to that earlier.

You can break the law without being violent. But you can also break the law without resisting the will of the police. Resisting is the part that gives the police just cause under the law to use methods of force, even if you aren't being violent. That is what happened here.

Case in point: the cops told them to vacate. They did not move. That is resisting. The cops then warned them that if they did not vacate they would be pepper sprayed, and still they did not move. That is continued resistance. A several points the cops attempted to physical restrain several of the protesters, and arms were yanked away. That is, yet again, continued resistance.

You may have addressed the point to someone else, but I have not read all the posts in this thread. Thanks for elaborating.

Anyway, even if you don't like comparisons to the civil rights movement, the protesters at that time were given orders by the police and they refused to comply. That was the entire point of civil disobedience, and it worked. If you don't think this is a worthy cause, that's fine, but this a pretty textbook case of civil disobedience.

 

[royalan]

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is force to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored."

"One may well ask: How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others? The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

"Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice . . . when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress."

"Ordinarily, a person leaving a courtroom with a conviction behind him would wear a somber face. But I left with a smile. I knew that I was a convicted criminal, but I was proud of my crime."

- MLK

How is quoting MLK outside of the context of the movement he was championing a convincing argument here?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I really fail to see how this applies to OWS as a whole, and especially in this case.

What unjust laws are being protested here? Unlawful assembly?

Anyway, even if you don't like comparisons to the civil rights movement, the protesters at that time were given orders by the police and they refused to comply. That was the entire point of civil disobedience, and it worked. If you don't think this is a worthy cause, that's fine, but this a pretty textbook case of civil disobedience.

The problem that I have with connecting OWS (or any movement of the moment) to the Civil Rights Movement is that a lot of people aren't thinking about the real reasons their acts of civil disobedience were so effective.

It wasn't just about squatting somewhere and pissing off the police. The real strength of the Civil Rights Movement was that the acts of disobedience were largely disobedient for the simple fact that the protesters were black. Eating at white restaurants. Drinking from "whites only" fountains. Fighting for integrated schools. There actions were all unified through a central message: equality. We want the same rights that you have and that we don't have for the simple fact that we are black. A clear focus, so that when the were met with resistance and brutalized, their strength and solidarity actually inspired sympathy because could see what they were going through just to be treated equally.

OWS isn't nearly as focused in that regard.

 

[kame-sennin]

How is quoting MLK outside of the context of the movement he was championing a convincing argument here?

I understand what you're trying to say, but I really fail to see how this applies to OWS as a whole, and especially in this case.

What unjust laws are being protested here? Unlawful assembly?

I was pointing out the MLK did not support compliance. I was not making a broader comparison. That's why I selected one specific quote of yours to respond to.

 

[Devolution]

I'd really be interested to hear how people are supposed to protest the current financial situation and income gaps from those who are so anti-OWS. Protesting is pretty much the go-to way to disseminate a message and get heard, especially when everyone is so glued to various technological distractions. My generation is in for some shit, that's for sure.

 

[Emitan]

It wasn't just about squatting somewhere and pissing off the police. The real strength of the Civil Rights Movement was that the acts of disobedience were largely disobedient for the simple fact that the protesters were black. Eating at white restaurants. Drinking from "whites only" fountains. Fighting for integrated schools. There actions were all unified through a central message: equality. We want the same rights that you have and that we don't have for the simple fact that we are black. A clear focus, so that when the were met with resistance and brutalized, their strength and solidarity actually inspired sympathy because could see what they were going through just to be treated equally.

OWS isn't nearly as focused in that regard.

So the problem wasn't their methods, they just weren't the right skin color? Holy fuck.

 

[royalan]

I'd really be interested to hear how people are supposed to protest the current financial situation and income gaps from those who are so anti-OWS. Protesting is pretty much the go-to way to disseminate a message and get heard, especially when everyone is so glued to various technological distractions. My generation is in for some shit, that's for sure.

Simple, strengthen the message. Get some leadership, and do a much (much) better job of actually informing people of why you're protesting. And make your methods of pretesting actually fit your cause.

 

[Emitan]

they were protesting police brutality

and were brutalized by police

it does't get stronger than that

 

[royalan]

So the problem wasn't their methods, they just weren't the right skin color? Holy fuck.

What on Earth are you talking about?

they were protesting police brutality

and were brutalized by police

it does't get stronger than that

I was responding to Devolution's post, which was about OWS in general.

 

[thezerofire]

Simple, strengthen the message. Get some leadership, and do a much (much) better job of actually informing people of why you're protesting. And make your methods of pretesting actually fit your cause.

doesn't matter how strong the message is, it's going to get spun all to hell already. It's incredible how these people are getting smeared as anarchists, as communists, as hippies, as loser students.

I agree there needs to be a strong leader though. I'm not sure what methods of protesting would be better.

 

[travisbickle]

Simple, strengthen the message. Get some leadership, and do a much (much) better job of actually informing people of why you're protesting. And make your methods of pretesting actually fit your cause.

So peaceful protestors would not have been pepper sprayed in the face, or hit in the ribs with batons if their message was stronger?

 

[Byakuya769]

Simple, strengthen the message. Get some leadership, and do a much (much) better job of actually informing people of why you're protesting. And make your methods of pretesting actually fit your cause.

How would they do that? It seems like you're not going to validate the movement until it's successful. Then you'll be ruminating about how your generation stood up for something 20 years from now.

 

[royalan]

So peaceful protestors would not have been pepper sprayed in the face, or hit in the ribs with batons if their message was stronger?

Didn't say that. Was responding to Devolution.

 

[travisbickle]

Didn't say that. Was responding to Devolution.

Devolution said "Protesting is pretty much the go-to way to disseminate a message and get heard"

So I assumed he wanted people to tell him/her how to disseminate a message, you said still protest with a stronger message so I assumed you thought the strength of the message would change the police's approach.

 

[royalan]

How would they do that? It seems like you're not going to validate the movement until it's successful. Then you'll be ruminating about how your generation stood up for something 20 years from now.

Well, for starters with no clear goals it'll be almost impossible to know when this movement will ever be considered "successful." There will always be a group of people who feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.

As for the protests, part of the reason the Civil Rights Movement was so successful was that the protests were directly related to what they were fighting for (sit-ins staged in white-only restaurants, etc). As OWS ages, it's starting to lose that focus. Staging sit-ins on random bits of private sidewalk and being unclear about your goals doesn't suggest a strong movement with a central message and focus.

 

[kame-sennin]

Simple, strengthen the message. Get some leadership, and do a much (much) better job of actually informing people of why you're protesting. And make your methods of pretesting actually fit your cause.

OWS is probably never going to have leadership. It is a horizontal movement, as opposed to a hierarchical top-down organization, which makes decisions by consensus. OWS protesters believe this is a more fair system. It also has the benefit of being nearly impossible to decapitate or co-opt.

As for the message, how can you concisely explain why Goldman Sachs taking out credit default swaps with AIG on the collateralized debt obligations they sold to pension funds is wrong? Can you make that concise? If you can, I will personally run that slogan down to Zuccotti and present it at the general assembly. Personally, I think "we are the 99 percent" is pretty clear.

 

[thezerofire]

Well, for starters with no clear goals it'll be almost impossible to know when this movement will ever be considered "successful." There will always be a group of people who feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.

As for the protests, part of the reason the Civil Rights Movement was so successful was that the protests were directly related to what they were fighting for (sit-ins staged in white-only restaurants, etc). As OWS ages, it's starting to lose that focus. Staging sit-ins on random bits of private sidewalk and being unclear about your goals doesn't suggest a strong movement with a central message and focus.

There are too many issues to have one central message. And if you don't know those messages by now you haven't done your research.

 

[royalan]

OWS is probably never going to have leadership. It is a horizontal movement, as opposed to a hierarchical top-down organization, which makes decisions by consensus. OWS protesters believe this is a more fair system. It also has the benefit of being nearly impossible to decapitate or co-opt.

As for the message, how can you concisely explain why Goldman Sachs taking out credit default swaps with AIG on the collateralized debt obligations they sold to pension funds is wrong? Can you make that concise? If you can, I will personally run that slogan down to Zuccotti and present it at the general assembly. Personally, I think "we are the 99 percent" is pretty clear.

Heh, not saying it would be simple, but I do think it could be made simpler by focusing ona few specific things and figuring out how to easily relate them.

I think "we are the 99 percent" sounds catchy, but it really doesn't tell you anything or give the public a better idea of what the goals are. In that regard, I always thought "Occupy Wall Street" was a much better name/slogan to rally behind. No matter what side of the fence you're on, big banks, money and corruption are among the first things to come to mind when someone says "Wall Street."

"We are the 99 percent" is so catchy that it has sort of become it's own thing outside of the movement. And allowing there to be "Occupy [insert whatever the fuck you want here]" distracts from having a strong message.

There are too many issues to have one central message. And if you don't know those messages by now you haven't done your research.

And you don't see anything wrong with the fact that the general public has to "do the research" in order to understand what you're protesting and support you?

 

[kame-sennin]

And you don't see anything wrong with the fact that the general public has to "do the research" in order to understand what you're protesting and support you?

Again, how can you explain CDS's and CDO's to people with a picket sign? Wall Street's crimes are complex. There's no way to simplify this and it's insane that the protesters are being knocked for this. You couldn't explain the problem in one sentence - no one can. The protesters are Occupying Wall Street to hold Wall Street accountable for their crimes. If you want to know what their crimes are (it's a long list), you need to educate yourself because it can't be explained in a protest chant.

 

[Emitan]

Again, how can you explain CDS's and CDO's to people with a picket sign? Wall Street's crimes are complex. There's no way to simplify this and it's insane that the protesters are being knocked for this.

Maybe they should protest something else then!

 

[royalan]

Again, how can you explain CDS's and CDO's to people with a picket sign? Wall Street's crimes are complex. There's no way to simplify this and it's insane that the protesters are being knocked for this. You couldn't explain the problem in one sentence - no one can. The protesters are Occupying Wall Street to hold Wall Street accountable for their crimes. If you want to know what their crimes are, you need to educate yourself because it can't be explained in a protest chant.

That's where a strong central leadership comes in. Part of the function of a leadership is to take the many complexities of an organization and make them presentable.

And again, I always thought allowing local sects of the movement to basically rebrand it didn't help, either.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Maybe they should protest something else then!

"It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged."
G.K. Chesterton, Cleveland Press

I wonder how many things would be different if there was some real accountability. Less special interest influence. Less Gerrymandering. less focus on holding onto power. Real prison for the elite and powerful who use their power to hurt masses of people.

 

[Devolution]

"It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged."
G.K. Chesterton, Cleveland Press

I wonder how many things would be different if there was some real accountability. Less special interest influence. Less Gerrymandering. less focus on holding onto power. Real prison for the elite and powerful who use their power to hurt masses of people.

Say what you want about the French Revolution, the beginning of that was spot on. Pay shit tons of taxes that only go to feed and house the rich while you're starving? Take those assholes out.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

I honestly hope this is a joke post.. I expected more from you, man.

Let's just tear gas them instead of attempting to arrest them by other means first!

You just got Astro laded.

 

[Clydefrog]

lol i was at that place last weekend, op.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

It sadnes me that the thread became about Manos yet again.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

It sadnes me that the thread became about Manos yet again.

Shitty movie, shitty poster?

 

[Jea Song]

If it wasn't for people like this in our country throughout our American history we would all still be citizens under the Royal British crown.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It sadnes me that the thread became about Manos yet again.

What can I say, I help stimulate discussion like few others.

 

[GaimeGuy]

What can I say, I help stimulate discussion like few others.

¬_____________________¬

 

[mr. puppy]

has anything developed from this story or are a bunch of armchair police policy experts debating about how this should've been done?

 

[ChocolateCupcakes]

has anything developed from this story or are a bunch of armchair police policy experts debating about how this should've been done?

I think they suspended the police officer who sprayed.

 

[marrec]

What can I say, I help stimulate discussion like few others.

I wish your Avatar weren't so smug, it'd be easier to take your stimulation.

The hat helps.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I wish your Avatar weren't so smug, it'd be easier to take your stimulation.

The hat helps.

It is admittedly a smug avatar. I'm thinking of getting the old Arnold one done with the blue hat and switching it back in. I had meant for that, but the person did my current one, and i didn't want to be impolite.

 

[Joe]

per gizmodo: pepper spray used had 2nd highest allowable potency, higher potency is used exclusively against bears. spray used had a minimum spray distance of 6ft, effective up to 20ft away, and is strong enough to stop a charging bear.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

per gizmodo: pepper spray used had 2nd highest allowable potency, higher potency is used exclusively against bears. spray used had a minimum spray distance of 6ft, effective up to 20ft away, and is strong enough to stop a charging bear.

Well obviously you don't want to use crap stuff. I mean we all recall what happens in Under Siege 2 when you use low grade stuff.

 

[JCreasy]

begun, this meme has

http://peppersprayingcop.tumblr.com/

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

begun, this meme has

http://peppersprayingcop.tumblr.com/

Anne Frank one looks more like he's spray painting it, but the rest are funny as hell.

 

[blame space]

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Reminds me of the Cop shooting the VC out of uniform sapper gag in the Clerks cartoon with Randall as Best Hall monitor.

 

[kame-sennin]

That's where a strong central leadership comes in.

As I mentioned earlier, OWS is a non-hierarchical movement. My apologies for not elaborating. What that means is that the people at OWS have moral aversion to a single leader or a small group of leaders. This is central to OWS, so asking them to elect a leader would be like asking a pro-democracy movement to select a king. What a non-hierarchical or horizontal organization means is that no one person has authority or elevated status above anyone else. This has the benefit of giving women, people of color, and other traditionally marginalized groups an equal voice. In a horizontal organization, all decisions are made by consensus. Every member of the group must come to an agreement or compromise. This is an incredibly slow way of making decisions, but it has the advantage of preventing the tyranny of the majority wherein minority groups are forced to live with solutions that benefit the majority but disadvantage the minority (as an aside, consensus voting also puts the breaks on irrational decision making, like the original vote that made the Patriot Act into law). From a tactical standpoint, a horizontal organization also has the advantage of being impossible to decapitate. As we know from history, and as retired police Captain Ray Lewis explained, the government deals with political movements it doesn't like by finding the leadership and arresting or discrediting them (or worse). This is done to create disorder and dysfunction within the movement, and has successfully destroyed political movements in the past. However, these tactics are useless when there are no leaders, when anyone can propose a course of action, and when the group must be unified around every decision. You can disagree with the idea of horizontal organizations, but that's what OWS is, and it's central to the movement.

Part of the function of a leadership is to take the many complexities of an organization and make them presentable.

The organization is not complex. The crimes that Wall Street committed were complex. There is no way to simplify these crimes. To this day, economists, journalists, regulators, and even Wall Street criminals have difficulty explaining these fraudulent practices in lay terms.

Having said that, there have been plenty of signs and chants that make it perfectly clear why people are angry, and I find it hard to believe that anyone who has observed the movement in any capacity can honestly say they don't know why people are angry; "they got bailed out, we got sold out", "we are the 99 percent". These slogans make it perfectly clear that the problem is income inequality. It seems intellectually dishonest to look at these slogans and say, "but what are their goals?".

 

[Wario64]

Live feed of the Davis rally right now: http://www.news10.net/video/liveonline/default.aspx

and its hammered

 

[HammerOfThor]

More meme fun:

http://www.uproxx.com/webculture/20...-pepper-spray-everyone-and-everything/#page/1

 

[equap]

I think they suspended the police officer who sprayed.

still getting paid i think.

 

[Zoe]

still getting paid i think.

If he's in a union, it's very difficult to suspend someone without pay.

 

[kame-sennin]

Interview with a pepper-sprayed UC Davis student

http://boingboing.net/2011/11/20/ucdeyetwitness.html

XJ: So, we see in the videos and photos that you were one of the students pepper-sprayed by Lieutenant John Pike yesterday. How are you doing today?

W: I still have a burning sensation in my throat, lips and nose, especially when I start coughing, or when I'm lying in bed. Everyone who got sprayed has sustained effects like this.

XJ: Can you tell us how it happened, from where you were sitting?

W: I'd pulled my beanie hat over my eyes, to protect my eyes. I received a lot of pepper spray in my throat. I vomited twice, right away, then spent the next hour or two dry heaving. Someone said they saw him spray down my throat intentionally, but I was so freaked out, and I was blinded by my hat, so I can't verify. I did get a large quantity of pepper spray in my lungs.

Another girl near me who has asthma had an attack triggered by the pepper spray, and she was taken to the hospital.

They handcuffed the students so tightly. One kid, later on they were unable to cut off his ties, they'd been tied so tight. One of the other students couldn't feel his hands they were so purple, his circulation was cut off so badly for so long. He took himself to the hospital after he was released from the zip-tie restraints. They told him he had nerve damage and not to expect to be able to feel his hands for the next week. He has to come back next week to see if there was permanent nerve damage in his wrists.

We yelled, "clear these tents," we didn't want them to take our tents. Aside from refusing the order to disperse, the only rule we were breaking was camping on campus. But since we had the first night waived by Chancellor Katehi, we really hadn't even broken university policy, she waived the code.

Then he went back and talked to a few of his police officer friends. A couple of other officers started to remove people who were sitting there, blocking exit. Pike could have easily removed us, just picked us up and removed us. We were just sitting there, nonviolent civil disobedience.

But Pike turned around and I am told that he said to the other officers, "Don't worry about it, I'm going to spray these kids down."

He lifts the can, spins it around in a circle to show it off to everybody.

Then he sprays us three times.

As if one time of being sprayed at point blank wasn't enough.

I was on the end of the line getting direct spray. When the second pass came, I got up crawling. I crawled away and vomited on a tree. I was yelling. It burned. Within a few minutes I was dry heaving, I couldn't breathe. Then, over the course of the next hour, I was dry heaving and vomiting.