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[royalan]

Um, both groups are fighting for civil rights...........so............yeah.

Haters gonna hate, emirite

Ok, I'll bite: educate me. What civil rights are these college students arguing for? Are they not being allowed to sit at the front of the bus? Are they being prevented from going to certain schools due to the color of their skin? Are they not being allowed to vote? To marry whomever they choose?

Are they structuring their movement around peaceably taking part in, abstaining from, or making use of certain rights and services that are being denied them because of the color of their skin, sexuality, or gender?

 

[SteveWinwood]

Convince me that you're not a disgrace to your username.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

you keep saying you can convince anyone of anything, and at least 6 people have called you a fascist in the last 48 hours according to you. why can you not convince them otherwise?

Because it's the default thing to call someone when you're on the far left and your opponent isn't another leftist.

That and Id rather not waste time trying to convince them, because what do I gain from it?

That said I could argue that I've been taking the views not to troll people, but to honestly try and defend things that few would try as an intellectual challenge, and work on defending clients you detest, to be the devils advocate if you will. I wasn't kidding about the voting records of me and most other posters having a similar ranking ideological if compared to each other.

 

[Emitan]

Ok, I'll bite: educate me. What civil rights are these college students arguing for? Are they not being allowed to sit at the front of the bus? Are they being prevented from going to certain schools due to the color of their skin? Are they not being allowed to vote? To marry whomever they choose?

Are they structuring their movement around peaceably taking part in, abstaining from, or making use of certain rights and services that are being denied them because of the color of their skin, sexuality, or gender?

They were protesting because of police brutality. How is that not civil rights?

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

So why didn't you guys inform me of the shitshow that's Manos? Dude seriously went full on loco, this should be entertaining.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So why didn't you guys inform me of the shitshow that's Manos, dude seriously went full on loco. This should be entertaining.

Except I never did.

 

[Barbacoatl]

You can convince yourself (and royalan, perhaps) of that. In that sense, you truly are the 1%.

 

[Fusebox]

Because it's the default thing to call someone when you're on the far left and your opponent isn't another leftist.

Convince us that this is something more than your personal delusion, and that you aren't in fact a fascist.

 

[royalan]

They were protesting because of police brutality. How is that not civil rights?

I was under the impression that they were protesting in support of OWS, or tuition hikes, or something. Who knows now since their protest has been completely swallowed by this?

 

[thezerofire]

I was under the impression that they were protesting in support of OWS, or tuition hikes, or something. Who knows now since their protest has been completely swallowed by this?

That specific event was planned to show solidarity to the Berkeley students and faculty that were beaten by police batons the week before. It just happens that there are other causes that are relevant

 

[Barbacoatl]

Manos' not a fascist. I know for a fact that he can laugh and enjoy being wacky. Enjoy food, the world, life. What I get from his crusade against OWS is that he simply shares interests with the so-called 1%. Dunno, his dad or his firm could work for Lehman or a military contractor or something similar, and it's not like he's going to tell us. Deep down Manos is a good man, just don't let him near any pepper spray cans.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

"You are not of great will and strength," growled the warrior. "You have come to a world called Gor!" *whipcrack*

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Manos' not a fascist. I know for a fact that he can laugh and enjoy being wacky. Enjoy food, the world, life. What I get from his crusade against OWS is that he simply shares interests with the so-called 1%. Dunno, his dad or his firm could work for Lehman or a military contractor or something similar, and it's not like he's going to tell us. Deep down Manos is a good man, just don't let him near any pepper spray cans.

It's more the messaging and tactics, though I wouldn't say your guess was too off to an extent.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

They need masks or something for pepper spray

 

[Emitan]

"You are not of great will and strength," growled the warrior. "You have come to a world called Gor!" *whipcrack*

Oh wait I've seen this one! The warrior and the hero are in a duel to the death when suddenly the section of cliff edge the warrior was standing on breaks free and his hands struggle to find any rock or recess capable of holding his weight. At this point the hero has to decide whether to spare his life or let him fall.

But he lets him fall because he's a fascist.

 

[Barbacoatl]

It's more the messaging and tactics, though I wouldn't say your guess was too off to an extent.

Really, so if the OWS was really well organized and had the best, irrefutable arguments against the establishment, you would sympathize with it?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Really, so if the OWS was really well organized and had the best, irrefutable arguments against the establishment, you would sympathize with it?

If it dropped some of the goofier elements and the squatting, yeah why not. That said I do think there are serious defecines right now that still would prevent me from supporting it.

 

[royalan]

That specific event was planned to show solidarity to the Berkeley students and faculty that were beaten by police batons the week before. It just happens that there are other causes that are relevant

Ok. Then where is the potency in their support? How does these students breaking the law and provoking action from the police really help to promote discussion other than making it onto the news?

Someone earlier posted a video of the protesters meeting the chancellor as she was walking to her car. In my opinion, the message there was a lot more potent - they weren't blocking anything, they were compliant. They merely stood there in solidarity chanting "We are peaceful." THAT's was a strong message. Of course, it doesn't result in any spicy youtube videos.

 

[Emitan]

Ok. Then where is the potency in their support? How does these students breaking the law and provoking action from the police really help to promote discussion other than making it onto the news?

I'm sure making it onto international news has done nothing for their cause. . .

 

[royalan]

I'm sure making it onto international news has done nothing for their cause. . .

Then if that's the case, why are you mad at the police? They're doing exactly what you want them to do.

 

[ghst]

Then if that's the case, why are you mad at the police? They're doing exactly what you want them to do.

one watertight statement if i ever saw one.

 

[Emitan]

Then if that's the case, why are you mad at the police? They're doing exactly what you want them to do.

oh sure they brutally attacked students with no real reason to, but the ends justify the means, right?

 

[Plumbob]

Someone earlier posted a video of the protesters meeting the chancellor as she was walking to her car. In my opinion, the message there was a lot more potent - they weren't blocking anything, they were compliant. They merely stood there in solidarity chanting "We are peaceful." THAT's was a strong message. Of course, it doesn't result in any spicy youtube videos.

If we're thinking of the same video, they were not chanting anything because they were maintaining silence as a form of protest against the chancellor's authorization of police action against the protestors. "Silencing our voices" and what not.

 

[Devolution]

Just for perspective, my mother was part of the FSM movement at CAL Berkeley. Participated in a peaceful sit-in in which the cops put up newspaper on the windows, dragged women by their hair, beat the shit out of men, and basically used any excuse to punch you in the face. When she was taken she went limp to keep from being injured. She was taken to jail and branded a communist by her community (fuck you Walnut Creek.)

More info here

Some of the responses in here would probably sicken her. Just sayin'. You can't get anywhere without some sort of mass protest and these kids are not a threat.

 

[thezerofire]

Ok. Then where is the potency in their support? How does these students breaking the law and provoking action from the police really help to promote discussion other than making it onto the news?

Someone earlier posted a video of the protesters meeting the chancellor as she was walking to her car. In my opinion, the message there was a lot more potent - they weren't blocking anything, they were compliant. They merely stood there in solidarity chanting "We are peaceful." THAT's was a strong message. Of course, it doesn't result in any spicy youtube videos.

Did we watch different videos? The second video they didn't say anything. They just sat there. And that wouldn't have happened if the first didn't. The point was about police brutality, and it brought about more police brutality. We wouldn't be talking about that brutality right now if there wasn't power in what happened.

 

[weekend_warrior]

If I had seen this 5 seconds earlier I would have spit water all over my screen. Well done sir.

 

[kame-sennin]

Are we seriously about to compare this to the Civil Rights Movement? Because there are big differences here.

Why don't you address the substance of my post? Do you or do you not know what civil disobedience means? Do you or do you not understand that you can break the law without being violent?

 

[royalan]

oh sure they brutally attacked students with no real reason to, but the ends justify the means, right?

The police are trained to use pepper spray for many reasons. Using it as a dispersal tool is one of them. The explanation given is that, in practice, it's usually a lot more effective and humane than batons, rubber bullets, and brute force. That reasoning could be bullshit, but given that that's how they're trained to handle situations where people are not complying with their instructions, how can you say that the protesters gave them no real reason?

 

[travisbickle]

If it dropped some of the goofier elements and the squatting, yeah why not. That said I do think there are serious defecines right now that still would prevent me from supporting it.

Are you waiting for the "People's Popular Front of Occupy Wall Street"? I wouldn't wait too long for another movement that you agree more with... the distribution of the wealth pie has been shocking over the last 20 years, predictions are that the pie is going to get smaller over the next 10 years and we can guess whose filling is going to be removed? Clue: not the top 1%.

 

[Emitan]

so they couldn't just... pick them up? they outnumbered them. how is using a last resort weapon right away justified?

 

[Plasmid]

This article from reddit is the first i'm really looking into it.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igenerati...crumbles-in-the-face-of-too-many-videos/13347

The second video of the chancellor just walking to her car is insane.

 

[Plumbob]

The police are trained to use pepper spray for many reasons. Using it as a dispersal tool is one of them. The explanation given is that, in practice, it's usually a lot more effective and humane than batons, rubber bullets, and brute force. That reasoning could be bullshit, but given that that's how they're trained to handle situations where people are not complying with their instructions, how can you say that the protesters gave them no real reason?

That's not the case here:

From the University of California’s Universitywide Police Policies and Administrative Procedures: “Chemical agents are weapons used to minimize the potential for injury to officers, offenders, or other persons. They should only be used in situations where such force reasonably appears justified and necessary.”

 

[Rorschach]

They were protesting because of police brutality. How is that not civil rights?

But they're white, dude.

 

[Emitan]

That's not the case here:

From the University of California’s Universitywide Police Policies and Administrative Procedures: “Chemical agents are weapons used to minimize the potential for injury to officers, offenders, or other persons. They should only be used in situations where such force reasonably appears justified and necessary.”

i'm sure royalan sees sitting down as a justifiable threat.

But they're white, dude.

Now don't I feel silly?

 

[ghst]

Just for perspective, my mother was part of the FSM movement at CAL Berkeley. Participated in a peaceful sit-in in which the cops put up newspaper on the windows, dragged women by their hair, beat the shit out of men, and basically used any excuse to punch you in the face. When she was taken she went limp to keep from being injured. She was taken to jail and branded a communist by her community (fuck you Walnut Creek.)

More info here

Some of the responses in here would probably sicken her. Just sayin'. You can't get anywhere without some sort of mass protest and these kids are not a threat.

at which point manos will sit her down and explain in his most lawyerly tone why any equivalence made to any historically significant protest is a false one, and that so insidious and destructive is this particular form of parasitic anti-social indignance that a laissez faire approach to authoritarian brutality is not only permitted, but required.

she just needs an education is all. maybe an nra membership to go with it.

now if this was about a circumcision ballot: that'd be a real cause for civil unrest.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Are you waiting for the "People's Popular Front of Occupy Wall Street"? I wouldn't wait too long for another movement that you agree more with... the distribution of the wealth pie has been shocking over the last 20 years, predictions are that the pie is going to get smaller over the next 10 years and we can guess whose filling is going to be removed? Clue: not the top 1%.

No I'm waiting for less of this pie in the sky general assembly throw everything at the wall style. The people's popular front goofiness is what cooljeanius touched on earlier and why I made the life of Brian reference. Im luckily in a position where time is on my side to wait and see.

 

[royalan]

Why don't you address the substance of my post? Do you or do you not know what civil disobedience means? Do you or do you not understand that you can break the law without being violent?

I'm sorry, I thought I had responded to that earlier.

You can break the law without being violent. But you can also break the law without resisting the will of the police. Resisting is the part that gives the police just cause under the law to use methods of force, even if you aren't being violent. That is what happened here.

Case in point: the cops told them to vacate. They did not move. That is resisting. The cops then warned them that if they did not vacate they would be pepper sprayed, and still they did not move. That is continued resistance. A several points the cops attempted to physical restrain several of the protesters, and arms were yanked away. That is, yet again, continued resistance.

 

[Barbacoatl]

She was taken to jail and branded a communist by her community (fuck you Walnut Creek.)

Generalized McCarthyism has to be one of America's nastiest stains of the last century. Sorry to hear the way she was treated by her own community but in return you have a lot to be proud of (as I bet she is).

 

[Devolution]

at which point manos will sit her down and explain in his most lawyerly tone why any equivalence made to any historically significant protest is a false one, and that so insidious and destructive is this particular form of parasitic anti-social indignant that a laissez faire approach to authoritarian brutality is not only permitted, but required.

she just needs an education is all. maybe an nra membership to go with it.

At the time they were heavily criticized by the right but a change of chancellor and some odd years later they were vindicated. Hmm...

Generalized McCarthyism has to be one of America's nastiest stains of the last century. Sorry to hear the way she was treated by her own community but in return you have a lot to be proud of (as I bet she is).

Both her and my grandmother on my dad's side is where I get my rebellious streak from. My grandmother and grandfather were kicked out of campus housing at CAL for refusing to sign loyalty oaths. I come from a grand tradition of giving the middle finger to authority and the status quo.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

at which point manos will sit her down and explain in his most lawyerly tone why any equivalence made to any historically significant protest is a false one, and that so insidious and destructive is this particular form of parasitic anti-social indignant that a laissez faire approach to authoritarian brutality is not only permitted, but required.

actually as I'm not quite sure what FSM stands for besides Flying Spaghetti Monster, seriously wiki isn't much help, I cant comment one way or another.

maybe an nra membership to go with it.

Well the second amendment is the one that protects all of the others.

 

[thezerofire]

actually as I'm not quite sure what FSM stands for besides Flying Spaghetti Monster, seriously wiki isn't much help, I cant comment one way or another.

I'm thinking Female Suffrage Movement, seems to fit

guess I was wrong lol thought the time was off

 

[Devolution]

I'm thinking Female Suffrage Movement, seems to fit

Nope. Free Speech Movement. She still has the pins.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Apparently the police chief lied about what happened. But you know, think about it from the cops' perspective, you monsters!

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igenerati...crumbles-in-the-face-of-too-many-videos/13347

“Students were given warnings to leave their tents [pitched on campus] by 3 p.m.”, it said. “The protest initially involved about 50 students”, Annette Spicuzza, UC Davis’ police chief said. “Some were wearing protective gear and some held batons”.

The final insult was when she said: “Officers were forced to use pepper spray when students surrounded them”, adding, “There was no way out of the circle”.

 

[Emitan]

they were surrounded on one side! the horror!

 

[Devolution]

Apparently the police chief lied about what happened. But you know, think about it from the cops' perspective, you monsters!

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igenerati...crumbles-in-the-face-of-too-many-videos/13347

“Students were given warnings to leave their tents [pitched on campus] by 3 p.m.”, it said. “The protest initially involved about 50 students”, Annette Spicuzza, UC Davis’ police chief said. “Some were wearing protective gear and some held batons”.

The final insult was when she said: “Officers were forced to use pepper spray when students surrounded them”, adding, “There was no way out of the circle”.

I don't even know why they think they can get away with this shit in this era of cameras.

 

[Timedog]

What I like the most is how the school chancellor or whatever title she has, said the students needed to move because it was "dangerous" for them to be there, then told the cops to pepper spray them, sending at least one person to the hospital with chemical burns.

I really, really like that.

 

[Barbacoatl]

In protests unprecedented in this scope at the time, students insisted that the university administration lift the ban of on-campus political activities and acknowledge the students' right to free speech and academic freedom.

Freaking chilling to see that what these people fought against more than 40 years ago is still prevalent today, nearing 20-freaking-12.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Nope. Free Speech Movement. She still has the pins.

Ah yes now wiki worked, interestingly it's credited with ironically getting Reagan elected Governor despite not being a luckily victor by using the FSM issue, interesting.

 

[thezerofire]

Apparently the police chief lied about what happened. But you know, think about it from the cops' perspective, you monsters!

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igenerati...crumbles-in-the-face-of-too-many-videos/13347

“Students were given warnings to leave their tents [pitched on campus] by 3 p.m.”, it said. “The protest initially involved about 50 students”, Annette Spicuzza, UC Davis’ police chief said. “Some were wearing protective gear and some held batons”.

The final insult was when she said: “Officers were forced to use pepper spray when students surrounded them”, adding, “There was no way out of the circle”.

which is blatantly false, you can see the cop stepping over the kids pretty clearly

 

[demon]

Just for perspective, my mother was part of the FSM movement at CAL Berkeley. Participated in a peaceful sit-in in which the cops put up newspaper on the windows, dragged women by their hair, beat the shit out of men, and basically used any excuse to punch you in the face. When she was taken she went limp to keep from being injured. She was taken to jail and branded a communist by her community (fuck you Walnut Creek.)

More info here

Some of the responses in here would probably sicken her. Just sayin'. You can't get anywhere without some sort of mass protest and these kids are not a threat.

Same shit, different time. The parallels are interesting. Similar causes, similar tactics used by police (wonder how bad it would be today without iphones and youtube), similar demographics involved, and the same old conservative a-holes defending and sometimes cheering on said police brutality while outright dismissing the protesters' causes. I just wonder how long we have to wait this time around until today's protesters are vindicated and most everybody looks back and says "Well no shit they were right..."