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[Durante]

Still, we don't know how the lower level details compare (optics, display panels, latency characteristics). And Oculus hasn't tipped its updated GDC hand yet.

We should know at least a bit more about that by tomorrow. What you call "low level details" is what actually matters IMHO, not what the plastic looks like.

I do hope that the same EVE Valkyrie demo is palyable on both the latest Oculus and Sony HW, and that a few (independent) people compare them.

Which reminds me, we'll need totally new benchmarking and pixel counting methods for VR

Do you own PS4? That's the huge difference. Some of us don't have PCs for OD.

That's a target market difference, sure, and significant, I don't deny that.
I was just hoping for some significant technological difference.

You have to widen the fov too, which means more geometry on screen. Rage or COD level graphics in vr at native resolution of the device are going to look fantastic.

And again, Carmack specifically said "low-latency" and "MSAA". That was for a reason.

 

[Jea Song]

If this is the future and not gimmicky like 3d was then I want in.

 

[gofreak]

Usually I scoff at debates on graphics/resolution/image quality/etc, but in this case it's a very important debate to have.

In VR, this stuff matters. A lot. I think Carmack is correct when he says to manage your expectations for PS4 VR. I think it's certainly possible to create very amazing experiences on the PS4 in VR, but they will have to be creative and throttled to figure out how to do it best. This is the area the Rift will surpass Morpheus, imo. The Rift will not really have these limitations.

Rift developers will certainly have limitations if they want a decent target market. Of course these limitations will rise over time as the 'average' gamer PC out there improves, but there's still limits to be considered.

The comparison he's making is a wee bit self-serving tbh. I mean, someone could easily throw back to him that perhaps we should calibrate our expectations for mobile VR - his current pet project - to...PSX levels? If we're doing very loose, back-of-a-napkin, paper comparisons as he is...

 

[NyMartin]

saw the GOW VR demo online
very low quality though

link?

 

[Man]

If carmack is talking technical, pay attention. He is not one to be bitter or provide misinformation or hyperbole.

"PS4 and Xbox One basically the same." Works for Oculus. Works on Android OR solution on the side... And oh yeah. He's human.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

Well it's already gaining national media in UK, As I was just browsing my favourite football teams news and a snippet to the right contains the hot national media news and amongst the top stories was the VR prototype announced for the ps4 by Sony.

Basically Sony do pretty well in regards to advertising a product and getting it awareness too the mainstream.

 

[SparkTR]

Oh I dunno... Not everyone has a powerhouse PC.

You're right, considering how many PCs are out there. But that 5% is tens of millions at least. These are all numbers from our collective arses, but you can see the stupidity of it all.

 

[Darksol]

If carmack is talking technical, pay attention. He is not one to be bitter or provide misinformation or hyperbole. He's about as technically and scientifically minded as you can get. I'd take it as close to fact

He played down the possibility of differences between the Xbox One and PS4. And he currently works with OR. I will not take his word as gospel.

 

[mrback]

could they put some extra beef in this to improve performance? doesnt the wiiu gamepad have its own processor? I know nothing about the ins & outs of hardware apart from building a pc.

 

[Socky]

I really hope The Witness supports Morpheus. With it's beautiful, colourful setting, slow pace, exploratory and puzzling gameplay and unthreatening environment it could be the killer app for VR - safe for the wife, granny and the kids but a real game under the hood.

This is what popular VR needs IMO - sure, you need your traditional games like Valkyrie and Drive Club (fingers crossed), plus maybe some re-makes that make sense (Jumping Flash, Colony Wars?!?), but more than anything it needs an environment that anyone can step into as their first VR experience. The Witness would be perfect for that.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Sounds farther off than I'd like. I'll get excited when we're out of the prototype stage. At this point it sounds like this is was mainly revealed for PR points.

They need to show it to developers to get games. It's really quite simple.

That's when you'd show it to devs at GDC behind closed doors, not have a streamed presentation. This was a calculated move to build more excitement and momentum behind Playstation. I'm not saying that was wrong, just that this thing seems very far off at this point.

 

[Seanspeed]

I quoted some facts and my opinion on Oculus. I did not offend anyone..

If you don't agree, that's cool. Tell me why.

However, stating that I talk nonsense is not nice is it and not intelligent discussion ?

Some facts? lol

Like how the Oculus cost $2000?

You were just displaying a lot of double standards, mainly. Its fine that you're excited now that its coming to consoles. But your 'does anybody else feel like they've been hit by a train?' thing was just a bit weird since the VR hype had started before today.

 

[plagiarize]

We should know at least a bit more about that by tomorrow. What you call "low level details" is what actually matters IMHO, not what the plastic looks like.

I do hope that the same EVE Valkyrie demo is palyable on both the latest Oculus and Sony HW, and that a few (independent) people compare them.

Which reminds me, we'll need totally new benchmarking and pixel counting methods for VR

That's a target market difference, sure, and significant, I don't deny that.
I was just hoping for some significant technological difference.

And again, Carmack specifically said "low-latency" and "MSAA". That was for a reason.

I know. Low latency and msaa are crucial, based on my rift dev kit experiences. Doom 3 has vastly poorer graphics than ps3 games that ran 60 fps were capable of, and yet graphically that thing looked awesome in vr.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Rift developers will certainly have limitations if they want a decent target market. Of course these limitations will rise over time as the 'average' gamer PC out there improves, but there's still limits to be considered.

The comparison he's making is a wee bit self-serving tbh. I mean, someone could easily throw back to him that perhaps we should calibrate our expectations for mobile VR - his current pet project - to...PSX levels? If we're doing very loose, back-of-a-napkin, paper comparisons as he is...

That's ridiculous because Rift would be hooked up to a PC, with a wider and bigger range of horsepower.

Maybe saying PS3 levels is a little inflammatory, but the comment was more about the extra horsepower needed to run VR.

edit: oh wait, misread mobile VR.

 

[Durante]

Rift developers will certainly have limitations if they want a decent target market. Of course these limitations will rise over time as the 'average' gamer PC out there improves, but there's still limits to be considered.

Sure, but on PC we have a traditional method for dealing with that. It's called options

And the good thing is that you'll be able to truly benefit massively from that ultra-high-end PC again, if you want to play in VR at "2D-screen-level" asset and effect detail!

The comparison he's making is a wee bit self-serving tbh. I mean, someone could easily throw back to him that perhaps we should calibrate our expectations for mobile VR - his current pet project - to...PSX levels? If we're doing very loose, back-of-a-napkin, paper comparisons as he is...

I don't think he would be offended by that. Mobile VR seems to be primarily aimed at virtual cinema applications and casual gaming at this point.

 

[TAJ]

If carmack is talking technical, pay attention. He is not one to be bitter or provide misinformation or hyperbole. He's about as technically and scientifically minded as you can get. I'd take it as close to fact

And he normally wouldn't make a mistake in wording like stereo 1080p instead of stereo half-1080p. His rage

Spoiler

lol

is making him blind.

 

[DirtyLarry]

A decent amount of the responses in this thread are (unfortunately) a representation of the internet culture of today's society.

Everyone wants everything yesterday.
There is no such thing as the past or the future, only the present.
"What have you done for me lately?" is the mindset of far to many people.

Yes, there are still a whole lot of unknown variables in this equation.
However sometimes it does not hurt to just take things at face value for what they are.

 

[ido]

Rift developers will certainly have limitations if they want a decent target market. Of course these limitations will rise over time as the 'average' gamer PC out there improves, but there's still limits to be considered.

Sure, but much less so than PS4. Their target audience initially is PC gamers from what I have read from Palmer.

The comparison he's making is a wee bit self-serving tbh. I mean, someone could easily throw back to him that perhaps we should calibrate our expectations for mobile VR - his current pet project - to...PSX levels? If we're doing very loose, back-of-a-napkin, paper comparisons as he is...

It can be self-serving and true at the same time. The mobile idea for the Rift has barely been mentioned, and it seems obvious it's a very in-the-future kind of idea. Nobody is concerned with it right now from what I can tell, and everyone is focusing on the high-end PC side of things right now.

 

[Nzyme32]

He played down the possibility of differences between the Xbox One and PS4. And he currently works with OR. I will not take his word as gospel.

I don't think he played it down at all. Technically speaking, they are fairly similar. He talks about at quakecon 2013. I don't think he was aware of what would actually be available for the games and what would be system reserved

 

[geordiemp]

Do people really believe in the whole "Magic Lab" hype? They've made the Move and EyeToy, which were completely irrelevant. I know people like to claim that the new VR device won't be a peripheral, but there's obviously something wrong with those two products that made people not adopt them. I have a feeling that there's gonna be a low adoption rate, especially if they launch something like this for the PS4.

.

From wiki on Ps move

By November 2012, this figure had grown to 15 million.[4]

Ok, so Ps Move has somewhere between 15 and 20 million units out there if we extrapolate from 2012.

How is over 15 million irrelevant ?

A good proportion of Sony console owners already have move wands....

 

[thunder_snail]

That's a target market difference, sure, and significant, I don't deny that.
I was just hoping for some significant technological difference.

I don't think we'll see a technological difference until someone uses real high refresh rate oled (no pentile, 360hz even divisible by 24,30,60,90,120fps).

Oculus don't have the resources to manufacture that kinda displays and I'm not sure about Sony since they seem to be moving away from display techs. Only company that seems to really push OLED seems to be Samsung at the moment and they definitely won't want to make that kinda screens until the market for VR is bigger.

Hopefully, once both OR and Morpheus comes out, it will happen.

 

[Man]

Drama over.

John Carmack ‏@ID_AA_Carmack 29m
Calibrate PS4 VR expectations: a game that ran 60 fps on PS3 could be done in VR (stereo 1080 MSAA low latency 60 fps) on PS4.
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ElectricBlue187 ‏@Dreamscythe 19m
@ID_AA_Carmack There are some good looking games that ran 60 FPS on PS3. Maybe Oculus should focus on a superior product instead of sniping.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
John Carmack ‏@ID_AA_Carmack 1m
@Dreamscythe That wasn't sniping; I think PS4 is a great platform, sufficient to drive VR. People just need to understand the demands.

 

[plagiarize]

And he normally wouldn't make a mistake in wording like stereo 1080p instead of stereo half-1080p. His rage

Spoiler

lol

is making him blind.

He's really not, and the level of fidelity he's talking about is going to blow most people away in vr, so it isn't cause for concern at all. The standards of native resolution, 60 fps, msaa and low latency are crucial to the experience. PS4 numbers of polygons, pixel shaders and particles are not.

 

[Nicktals]

I really hope The Witness supports Morpheus. With it's beautiful, colourful setting, slow pace, exploratory and puzzling gameplay and unthreatening environment it could be the killer app for VR - safe for the wife, granny and the kids but a real game under the hood.

This is what popular VR needs IMO - sure, you need your traditional games like Valkyrie and Drive Club (fingers crossed), plus maybe some re-makes that make sense (Jumping Flash, Colony Wars?!?), but more than anything it needs an environment that anyone can step into as their first VR experience. The Witness would be perfect for that.

It will. 100%. Look up the witness blog to see that Blow truly understands the potential and the importance of VR.

I think he also said it would support VR on PS4 if it happened...before it was announced.

 

[Nzyme32]

And he normally wouldn't make a mistake in wording like stereo 1080p instead of stereo half-1080p. His rage

Spoiler

lol

is making him blind.

He has talked about his old age making things difficult, you could be onto something

 

[Callibretto]

When will we got our first hands on impression? How many more hour I mean, its getting late and I wonder if I should wait a bit if its soon or just catche up tomorrow

 

[gofreak]

Sure, but on PC we have a traditional method for dealing with that. It's called options

And the good thing is that you'll be able to truly benefit massively from that ultra-high-end PC again, if you want to play in VR at "2D-screen-level" asset and effect detail!

You can always throw more horsepower at IQ, but there's also always going to be some minimum spec targeted by devs, that will rise over time, but that will place constraints on what devs can do and the quality levels they might target.

 

[Dragon]

When will we got our first hands on impression? How many more hour I mean, its getting late and I wonder if I should wait a bit if its soon or just catche up tomorrow

It's 6:40 AM in San Francisco, go to bed.

 

[TAJ]

I don't think he played it down at all. Technically speaking, they are fairly similar

The GSCube was also extremely similar to the PS2.

 

[Tobor]

I have one: VR is the future of entertainment.

How about that?
Sony should be commended for getting in on it still (relatively) early. Pretty good responsiveness for a company that size.

Bingo. People equating this to 3D TV or other gimmicks are off course. VR is the most significant advance in display technology in our lifetimes.

 

[Tom Penny]

I'm always surprised when I read this.

You know the Wii, that thing with a stick that let you bowl? That took the world by storm. Why is it that if a company comes along that can convincingly make you feel like you're actually IN the game world, that it would be of no interest to anyone?

So you think it's feasible for multiple people to just keep passing around a head piece or buy multiple ones just to play in your example a simple game like bowling with 4 people. Doubtul.

 

[Durante]

You can always throw more horsepower at IQ, but there's also always going to be some minimum spec targeted by devs, that will rise over time, but that will place constraints on what devs can do and the quality levels they might target.

My point is about developers making games which target both VR and traditional screen.

Using "maximum" settings on those games in high-quality responsive VR will require an absolute beast of a machine. And the differences will be much more significant than current options for "screen only" games.

And I like that

 

[Turin Turambar]

Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.

Imagine a Call of Duty game. 60fps on PS3, but at sub 720p.

Now blow up the resolution to 1080p. That needs +337% of power, comparing the pixel amount.
Add some MSAA, to compensate the low resolution (yeah, 1080p is still kind of low for VR, ideally you want more). So, add a bit more of power.
It really needs to be stable 60fps, not 50ish falling to 45fps in hectic moments like in CoD. Add another bit more.
Then add the need of rendering two viewpoints, for the stereo image. I'm unsure of the cost of that, but I think you need another bit more.

So he is right, if the PS4 is... around four times more powerful than the PS3. If the Ps4 is more powerful than that, then maybe it won't be so bad.

 

[Nzyme32]

Drama over.

John Carmack ‏@ID_AA_Carmack 29m
Calibrate PS4 VR expectations: a game that ran 60 fps on PS3 could be done in VR (stereo 1080 MSAA low latency 60 fps) on PS4.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
ElectricBlue187 ‏@Dreamscythe 19m
@ID_AA_Carmack There are some good looking games that ran 60 FPS on PS3. Maybe Oculus should focus on a superior product instead of sniping.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
John Carmack ‏@ID_AA_Carmack 1m
@Dreamscythe That wasn't sniping; I think PS4 is a great platform, sufficient to drive VR. People just need to understand the demands.

I hope people realise that graphical fidelity is not what is providing the immersive experience. Michael Abrash's example of a bunch of old web pages texturing the inside of a cube, and a small platform elevated high up, was enough to make him and others feel that they were on the edge of a cliff, knees lock up, you sweat and feel fear and danger. Graphics are additive to the experience, but not necessary. This is what is fantastic and needs exploring in VR

 

[Arkham]

Could someone explain the "3 meter

Spoiler

metet lol

volume" spec?

 

[Durante]

Imagine a Call of Duty game. 60fps on PS3, but at sub 720p.

Now blow up the resolution to 1080p. That needs +337% of power, comparing the pixel amount.
Add some MSAA, to compensate the low resolution (yeah, 1080p is still kind of low for VR, ideally you want more). So, add a bit more of power.
It really needs to be stable 60fps, not 50ish falling to 45fps in hectic moments like in CoD. Add another bit more.
Then add the need of rendering two viewpoints, for the stereo image. I'm unsure of the cost of that, but I think you another bit more.

So he is right, if the PS4 is... around four times more powerful than the PS3.

More like ~10 times. >3 times the resolution, 4xMSAA isn't cheap, and a (multiplicative) bit on top of that each for truly stable performance, rendering 2 viewports and greatly increased FoV.

Could someone explain the "3 meter

Spoiler

metet lol

volume" spec?

I'd assume it means their tracking works reliably within a 3 meter volume of space.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Drama over.

John Carmack ‏@ID_AA_Carmack 29m
Calibrate PS4 VR expectations: a game that ran 60 fps on PS3 could be done in VR (stereo 1080 MSAA low latency 60 fps) on PS4.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
ElectricBlue187 ‏@Dreamscythe 19m
@ID_AA_Carmack There are some good looking games that ran 60 FPS on PS3. Maybe Oculus should focus on a superior product instead of sniping.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
John Carmack ‏@ID_AA_Carmack 1m
@Dreamscythe That wasn't sniping; I think PS4 is a great platform, sufficient to drive VR. People just need to understand the demands.

Can't believe there was drama in the first place.

 

[geordiemp]

Some facts? lol

Like how the Oculus cost $2000?

You were just displaying a lot of double standards, mainly. Its fine that you're excited now that its coming to consoles. But your 'does anybody else feel like they've been hit by a train?' thing was just a bit weird since the VR hype had started before today.

Fair enough, but if you read my posts I never enter any PC threads - as a console owner you just get laughed at with I have a 120 Hz 1440p my monster rig ....nice, but I don't have any interest in PC gaming.

I like controller on a couch against others using the same. It does not mix with a guy 1 ft away from a 2ms 1440 monitor running the game at 120 Hz using a pixel perfect gaming mouse..

So yes VR hit home for me seeing a prototype that looked like they could ship it as it is and it looks like a consumer product already....

Yes I have lived in ignorance of the PC space as a console only gamer - I am probably not alone.

We have 2 x ps3, 2 x wii, 2 x 360 and 2 x Ps4 in the house connected to 2 x 47 inch LG smart TV (me and 10 yr son are big gamers). I can afford any PC I would want, but PC is not the environment I want to game in...

 

[Elios83]

Are impressions from the demos at the show coming later?

 

[flyinpiranha]

Do people really believe in the whole "Magic Lab" hype? They've made the Move and EyeToy, which were completely irrelevant. I know people like to claim that the new VR device won't be a peripheral, but there's obviously something wrong with those two products that made people not adopt them. I have a feeling that there's gonna be a low adoption rate, especially if they launch something like this for the PS4.

And people who doubt what Carmack is saying obviously have no idea how taxing VR really is and haven't tried it. It's quite intensive. The PS4 already makes shortcuts to provide 60 FPS for modern games, and VR is definitely not making that any easier.

This is just untrue. Peripherals are always a hard sell (and for the record, at this stage it IS a peripheral), a vast majority of console players don't buy all that much for them like the enthusiasts. Move sold a shit-ton for what it's worth and it was a very, very good product (Sports Champions was amazing software). The only thing 'wrong' was price and available software.

I have no doubt that there will be a low adoption rate. For many people the PS4 was a huge purchase. They don't have $100's to spend on tech and may not have an interest in it. It's the early stages of VR, you can't expect majority adoption at this point, but the fact that Sony is moving forward with this and the traction VR is gaining in general is great for the industry as a whole. This is something truly game changing in the way we interact with games.

I understand the hesitance, but I really believe this is where it's going. You can even say "Motion controls are niche" or were a "gimmick" or a "fad" but it's where things are moving in that direction also, maybe not this generation, maybe not next, but gesture control when it's more precise will be a common interface used for products. Combine that with VR and you have virtual workstations that employees could use at home for a huge amount of projects.

I'm just optimistic when it comes to the future use of these devices. I just think we're in the very early stage. It took 50+ years to get from the black and white television to the HDTV slim line "picture" every home has now. It was almost 30+ years from a brick cell phone to the smarthpones we have. The idea has been there, but technology hasn't wasn't ... we're on that cusp now though. VR has been around since the 90's but it was so cost prohibitive that it wasn't feasible for mass production. It's like the early 'smart' telephones and organizers, high level business and techies had them in the 90's and early 00's, but it wasn't mainstream enough to where everybody could receive email 'on the go'. Now it's odd if you can't check Gmail from your phone.

 

[QaaQer]

You can always throw more horsepower at IQ, but there's also always going to be some minimum spec targeted by devs, that will rise over time, but that will place constraints on what devs can do and the quality levels they might target.

It's possible that Sony's VR will be that baseline, and OR will be for the up market. Which will be good for everyone as there will be a large enough base of cheap mass market types to make VR game production attractive, and those who want 2k OLED screens and 120Hz can pay for that.

 

[DieH@rd]

Could someone explain the "3 meter

Spoiler

metet lol

volume" spec?

That's either 3 cube meters [volume of 1.5m x 1.5m x 1.5m] which is enough for stationary [seated/standing] VR tracking, or maybe 3m x 3m x 3m [27 cubic meters].

That smaller volume is more likely.

 

[gofreak]

My point is about developers making games which target both VR and traditional screen.

Using "maximum" settings on those games in high-quality responsive VR will require an absolute beast of a machine. And the differences will be much more significant than current options for "screen only" games.

And I like that

Indeed, but, if a beastly 2D game's developers doesn't think there's enough machines out there that could meet its needs for a decent VR mode, there may not be an official VR mode at all in those game. Some developers may not care in these cases, but some will. There's always mods though!

For VR specific games, I think it's another ballgame, and I think the question of minimum spec will be very pertinent - and pertinent for Oculus's market goals too.

So, just saying, I don't think we can really say there's 'no limits' on Rift. There'll be constraints that rise over time. There's always going to be some pragmatism going on from devs about what to demand from players' machines.

 

[Crimson_Fate]

I think it is irrelevant what the PS4 hardware capable of as long as the VR headset hardware is sound and capable of handling 1080p/60 when it needs to. Even if most games are 720P scaled to 1080P, People will buy it and it will look great

 

[chubigans]

I'm actually looking forward to Thief impressions the most today. If they can get a badly optimized 30fps game to look immersive on the Morpheus, then my fears will be gone.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I hope people realise that graphical fidelity is not what is providing the immersive experience. Michael Abrash's example of a bunch of old web pages texturing the inside of a cube, and a small platform elevated high up, was enough to make him and others feel that they were on the edge of a cliff, knees lock up, you sweat and feel fear and danger. Graphics are additive to the experience, but not necessary. This is what is fantastic and needs exploring in VR

The thing is Sony are showing off their VR experience with preexisting games that do rely on graphical quality.

 

[SparkTR]

Can't believe there was drama in the first place.

Especially in the prior Sony VR thread people seemed perfectly fine with PS3 level visuals as long as it was convincing VR.

 

[Krisprolls]

Salty.

I wouldn't say salty, but he's a competitor so of course he won't say Sony VR is great, that's not his job.

When you hear VR needs more power than the PS4 has, you have to remember people who say that are the direct competitors to Sony VR (Valve and Rift). Of course they will say that, that's business.

 

[boredandlazy]

Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.

Except it's not traditional stereo 1080p.

 

[Triple U]

Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.

Lol this is damage control if I've ever seen it. Even if he's right..