Project Morpheus - Sony VR headset prototype - unveiled

geordiemp

Member
Sep 5, 2013
7,072
32
395
UK
You're still going with this nonsense?
I quoted some facts and my opinion on Oculus. I did not offend anyone..

If you don't agree, that's cool. Tell me why.

However, stating that I talk nonsense is not nice is it and not intelligent discussion ?
 

Sendou

Member
Aug 8, 2011
15,408
0
0
Finland


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
 

geordiemp

Member
Sep 5, 2013
7,072
32
395
UK
I am a bit disappointed, I did expect them to have at least one significant hardware difference to the Rift (either because it's really better or just because of pride). I guess the "Luckey/Carmack design" for VR headsets is just the most feasible option for consumer VR at this point by a huge margin..
Is the sony screen curved - it looks like it is from the pictures....is that not an advance on a flat screen technology
 

plagiarize

Banned
May 24, 2006
41,139
1
0


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?
Reasonable expectations as far as I can tell. Sony are aware they need to be low latency and high frame rates. Expecting beyond ps3 levels of geometry and effects is overly optimistic.
 

Kud Dukan

Member
Sep 13, 2010
2,050
0
0


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
There's some truth behind it, but general statements like that just aren't true. It's not nearly as clear cut as he is suggesting.

(What I mean is the idea that 60fps on PS3 = 60fps on PS4 with VR. If only it was that simple.)
 

Man

Member
Sep 27, 2009
11,920
0
0
Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?
Well to put it like this: Minecraft VR >>>>> Killzone SF.
A PS3 game is obviously leages above Minecraft graphics.

The comparison can't really be made.

And the PS4 is stronger than 95% of home computers out there.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
43,347
1
1,645
I am a bit disappointed, I did expect them to have at least one significant hardware difference to the Rift (either because it's really better or just because of pride). I guess the "Luckey/Carmack design" for VR headsets is just the most feasible option for consumer VR at this point by a huge margin.
True, but I think are showing a somewhat more complete solution than Oculus has to date. With the more complete tracking and having a hand controller, and more exposition on what they are doing on audio. And a more finessed design. They kind of got 'lucky' on the controller side though.

Still, we don't know how the lower level details compare (optics, display panels, latency characteristics). And Oculus hasn't tipped its updated GDC hand yet.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Mar 28, 2010
51,067
0
0


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
I don't know what was bitter about that. It's more talking about the hardware of the PS4 than morpheus.
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
1
0
peter.metaclassofnil.com
Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?
It's not far off.

Note that he explicitly mentions MSAA and low latency in his VR specs. Most "AAA" PS3 games feature some single-sample analytical AA (if any at all), and have a multi-frame latency to improve parallelization.

This will be an interesting parallel programing / software engineering challenge by the way, balancing the requirement of using very parallel (without high single threaded performance) hardware with a very low per-frame latency.
 

Majukun

Member
Jun 19, 2009
11,714
61
710


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
we don't know if it is the exact truth,but of course something in the graphics department is gonna be sacrificed using VR on a ps4.sony didn't even tried to hide it,saying that how much graphic is important will be different from the norm because of "immersion".
 

ido

Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,229
0
0
35
Mississippi
Reasonable expectations as far as I can tell. Sony are aware they need to be low latency and high frame rates. Expecting beyond ps3 levels of geometry and effects is overly optimistic.
Seems fairly accurate.

Performance is going to have to be very strict when dealing with VR, so they can't afford to have frame drops at all.
 

Danneee

Member
Jun 12, 2009
5,934
1
665
Sweden
pici.se


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
Salty.
That would put his opinion on PS4 graphics performance being about 3-4 times better than PS3.

Edit: and he's somewhat biased in the matter. I'm sure he doesn't want Morpheus looking like a better or more affordable VR solution than OR.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Jun 9, 2004
24,925
0
0


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
Lol, stereo 1080? Bitter as fuck. So bitter it's shutting his brain off.
 
Jan 7, 2007
15,822
0
0


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
Don't you have to render two images simultaneously? I imagine that would be quite a stretch for the PS4, that is if you wanted the non-VR visual quality that you usually expect.

Lol, stereo 1080? Bitter as fuck.
The thing is John Carmack is a legitimate genius and if he says something like that then I'd likely think it was true.
 

Darksol

Member
Aug 9, 2013
8,919
0
435
Put me in the fucking world of Tearaway for all I care. I'm not after PS4 graphics. VR is about the immersion and feeling like being in the actual world, it's not first and foremost a high end graphics simulator :p
 

Majukun

Member
Jun 19, 2009
11,714
61
710
Well to put it like this: Minecraft VR >>>>> Killzone SF.
A PS3 game is obviously leages above Minecraft graphics.

The comparison can't really be made.

And the PS4 is stronger than 95% of home computers out there.
I think this is definitely false.
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
May 9, 2006
15,209
0
0
London, UK
I would take GOW3 VR.
GOW3 achieved its performance through strict manipulation of camera angles. doesn't seem like the greatest use of VR.

carmack's just saying what i've been saying all along. sony have to be modest about this, and demoing the tech on with game which already can't hold thirty FPS on PS4 isn't the way to do it.
 

Resident_UA

Member
Dec 16, 2008
5,091
8
790
I am a bit disappointed, I did expect them to have at least one significant hardware difference to the Rift (either because it's really better or just because of pride). I guess the "Luckey/Carmack design" for VR headsets is just the most feasible option for consumer VR at this point by a huge margin.

They explicitly said that's the point. It's also the reason for the Rift DK1 and their presentations, as well as why Valve showed their prototype.

Steam even has a legacy mode you can use to play most games on a virtual screen in VR, and navigate the interface in VR. Valve is pretty good at providing a consumer software platform for VR considering that there isn't even any product yet.

The one huge cost factor on these things is the panel, everything else is comparably minor IMHO.

Yes. It's questionable though if you'd want to do that rather than a Rift, considering software support (on PC) and HW quality. We'll have to wait until we know a lot more about the latter.

Oculus put VR on the map, and the design we are dealing with here seems to be basically a Rift. It's also the only other company in the VR hardware business. Of course it is highly relevant. Also, one "c".

They need to show it to developers to get games. It's really quite simple.
Do you own PS4? That's the huge difference. Some of us don't have PCs for OD.
 

Tom Penny

Member
Oct 19, 2007
25,705
0
0
US
So does anyone have any logic reasons on why this could possible be a sucess. It appears to be an incredibly niche product that would not get back it's return on investment.
 

ido

Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,229
0
0
35
Mississippi
And Project Morpheus is the Google Maps that will lead you to the destination. Hopefully without driving into a pond. ;)
I think it will be much more limited than the Rift, but still a worthy purchase. I don't see it overshadowing the Rift in the long run, though.

Very interested to see comparisons done today between the two.
 

ZehDon

Member
Jun 13, 2013
1,966
429
380
Australia

Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?
No, he's not too far off the mark - Carmack is god tier at this kind of shit, though he's never had a high opinion of consoles. On top of an increase to 1080p and 60FPS in stereo, I'd wager you'd get significant texture and some geometry improvements as well, which would alter the look immensely. We're talking ultra-crisp visuals, beautiful textures, and silky smooth performance. But VR doesn't work as a result of increased visual fidelity. The most impressive demos so far have been un-textured cubes, and poorly constructed rooms. It's not about "amazing visuals" - we have 2D games for that. It's about "presence". Having said that, his comments about games running at 60FPS on PS3 seems out of place - the PS4 is something in the vicinity of 10 times more powerful than the PS3. Pushing Killzone 2 at 1080p120 shouldn't theoretically be all that difficult. But like I said, Carmack knows his shit - even if he is PC biased. I guess we'll see tomorrow when the impressions are in.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Mar 28, 2010
51,067
0
0
Wasn't that come somewhere between 30-60FPS? I don't know how good of experience it would make.



Yeah and Morpheus is directly connected to PS4 for obvious reasons.
And he's saying that the PS4 hardware won't have as much horsepower to run VR compared to a high end PC which is what they're working on. I don't think that's anything controversial. He may have jumped the horse on what it is capable off but I don't think it's bitter to say not to expect PS4 level graphics when running VR.
 

Darksol

Member
Aug 9, 2013
8,919
0
435
So does anyone have any logic reasons on why this could possible be a sucess. It appears to be an incredibly niche product that would not get back it's return on investment.
I'm always surprised when I read this.

You know the Wii, that thing with a stick that let you bowl? That took the world by storm. Why is it that if a company comes along that can convincingly make you feel like you're actually IN the game world, that it would be of no interest to anyone?
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Dec 9, 2006
35,047
1
0


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
Did he calibrated his expectations when he started building Rage 7+ years ago? With Carmak speaking thaty he spent a lot of time being spellbounded at the look of few bricks in Rage VR demo test area, I think that PS4 VR capabilities will be just fine.
 

Sendou

Member
Aug 8, 2011
15,408
0
0
Finland
And he's saying that the PS4 hardware won't have as much horsepower to run VR compared to a high end PC which is what they're working on. I don't think that's anything controversial. He may have jumped the horse on what it is capable off but I don't think it's bitter to say not to expect PS4 level graphics when running VR.
Yeah well the obvious connection would be the first impressions regarding how Morpheus outperforms Oculus Rift currently.

In any case I think it will be a tough sell for Sony.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
43,347
1
1,645


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
Obviously he has a vested interest, and I think Carmack has been pretty loose in his next-gen console observations. For example if he really thinks X1 and PS4 are 'essentially the same', it might explain why he thinks the above... :)

That aside I think he's being quite conservative indeed in that. A 720p/60hz game on PS3 will translate to better than 1080p/3d/60hz/MSAA on PS4 unless you're doing a very naive straight port. And it ignores the multitude of software/technique improvements that emerge between generations.

I think it'll be interesting to hear how EvE Valkyrie is on Morpheus - one of the better looking Rift games to date, IMO.
 

chrishackwood

Member
Jul 12, 2013
436
0
0
UK
Move would show where your hand was and would work well in dark environments but if the camera can face track and there have been body tracking games (of a simple nature) on PS Eye before, surely it would be possible to roughly track an arm with just the camera?

Edit:- NVM; a post dealing with this has appeared as I was typing my response :)
I could imagine using the move contoller in a game where your wearing a visor (think Metroid or any game with a space themed game
Alien Isolation!?
) would make it awsome where you have to actually bring the move controller to your face to wipe away water/dirt/blood/ice etc from the visor when it's been sprayed onto the screen obsuring your view.

I can see things like that really helping the sense of "presence"!
 

Violater

Member
Jun 11, 2007
11,224
0
910
Rochester NY
Wasn't that come somewhere between 30-40FPS? I don't know how good of experience it would make.

.
Do you think they couldnt remove some of the features that would be unnecessary for VR to make it 60fps?
Like someone said don't take what Carmac said literally its not a direct conversion from PS3 output to PS4 capabilities.
IMO Oculus pr should put a muzzle on Carmack.
 

Dragon

Banned
Jul 7, 2007
24,879
0
0
So does anyone have any logic reasons on why this could possible be a sucess. It appears to be an incredibly niche product that would not get back it's return on investment.
Demolition Man was a success and it featured VR sex, therefore Sony's VR will be sexy.
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Feb 5, 2013
5,927
0
0
Austin
I think this is definitely false.
I dunno, a lot of folks are still using machines that are frankly archaic compared to modern stuff. When I left university in 2007, we had staff members still using windows 98 rigs, who were quite mad when we told them they had to upgrade.

A lot of folks still run win xp rigs as well.
 

Durante

Member
Oct 1, 2006
48,836
1
0
peter.metaclassofnil.com
Did he calibrated his expectations when he started building Rage 7+ years ago?
He pulled off one of the only large-scale "AAA" games which reliably manages a solid 60 FPS on last-gen consoles, so clearly he did.

So does anyone have any logic reasons on why this could possible be a sucess. It appears to be an incredibly niche product that would not get back it's return on investment.
I have one: VR is the future of entertainment.

How about that?
Sony should be commended for getting in on it still (relatively) early. Pretty good responsiveness for a company that size.
 

chrishackwood

Member
Jul 12, 2013
436
0
0
UK
Obviously he has a vested interest, and I think Carmack has been pretty loose in his next-gen console observations. For example if he really thinks X1 and PS4 are 'essentially the same', it might explain why he thinks the above... :)

That aside I think he's being quite conservative indeed in that. A 720p/60hz game on PS3 will translate to better than 1080p/3d/60hz/MSAA on PS4 unless you're doing a very naive straight port. And it ignores the multitude of software/technique improvements that emerge between generations.

I think it'll be interesting to hear how EvE Valkyrie is on Morpheus - one of the better looking Rift games to date, IMO.
This time tomorrow we'll know what developers think of Morpheus :)
 

QaaQer

Member
Jun 13, 2012
11,333
0
0
Totally missed this last night. This turned into really a non announcement since its just a prototype and nothing more. They really should have waited to show this off until they at least had some games on board or a final design
I'm thinking maybe a good way of getting games made for this thing is to show it to some developers; you know, maybe at a game developers conference or something.

* * *
I think the real challenge, as with any mass CE product, is going to be making something that has a good enough end user experience while still being affordable.

Sony has to make money on these things; Occulus doesn't, at least until the VC runs out anyway.
 

Majukun

Member
Jun 19, 2009
11,714
61
710
So does anyone have any logic reasons on why this could possible be a sucess. It appears to be an incredibly niche product that would not get back it's return on investment.
the tech is here,is affordable and if marketed properly can be the next motion control.

of course many things have to happen before something because mainstream,you need timing,luck and support..the timing is right,we will se for something like price or support.
 

ido

Member
Apr 14, 2010
2,229
0
0
35
Mississippi
Usually I scoff at debates on graphics/resolution/image quality/etc, but in this case it's a very important debate to have.

In VR, this stuff matters. A lot. I think Carmack is correct when he says to manage your expectations for PS4 VR. I think it's certainly possible to create very amazing experiences on the PS4 in VR, but they will have to be creative and throttled to figure out how to do it best. This is the area the Rift will surpass Morpheus, imo. The Rift will not really have these limitations.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Jun 9, 2004
24,925
0
0
Reasonable expectations as far as I can tell. Sony are aware they need to be low latency and high frame rates. Expecting beyond ps3 levels of geometry and effects is overly optimistic.
The absolute worst-case scenario is much better than that.
Trine 2 was 720p/30fps on PS3. It's rendered internally at full 1080p for each eye at 60fps without dips on PS4.
 

Dolor

Member
Jun 17, 2013
1,996
0
0
Katy, TX
steamcommunity.com
I think people are not realizing that 1080p is entirely different 10 feet away than it is an inch away from your eye.

The Valve guys said that stereo 1080p at 95Hz was where VR started getting really good.

I would expect better resolutions at that framerate to be the order of the day as soon as the first OR comes out.
 

Popup

Member
Oct 20, 2007
145
0
0
He's just saying 'Don't get carried away' and it's a useful guesstimate to know.

The Minecraft comment above makes a great argument that immersion can exist without the need for photo realism. Devs will have a set of limits and will have to best design within those limits.
 

wmlk

Member
Aug 7, 2013
12,280
0
0
Do people really believe in the whole "Magic Lab" hype? They've made the Move and EyeToy, which were completely irrelevant. I know people like to claim that the new VR device won't be a peripheral, but there's obviously something wrong with those two products that made people not adopt them. I have a feeling that there's gonna be a low adoption rate, especially if they launch something like this for the PS4.

And people who doubt what Carmack is saying obviously have no idea how taxing VR really is and haven't tried it. It's quite intensive. The PS4 already makes shortcuts to provide 60 FPS for modern games, and VR is definitely not making that any easier.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Mar 28, 2010
51,067
0
0
Yeah well the obvious connection would be the first impressions regarding how Morpheus outperforms Oculus Rift currently.

In any case I think it will be a tough sell for Sony.
How it outperforms the Rift would be entirely down to picture quality and latency. Carmack has mentioned none of that.
 

Nzyme32

Member
May 23, 2013
18,286
1
0


Is he just bitter? Or is it the truth? Or is it the bitter truth?

For those who don't know: Carmack works for Oculus VR these days.
If carmack is talking technical, pay attention. He is not one to be bitter or provide misinformation or hyperbole. He's about as technically and scientifically minded as you can get. I'd take it as close to fact
 

plagiarize

Banned
May 24, 2006
41,139
1
0
The absolute worst-case scenario is much better than that.
Trine 2 was 720p/30fps on PS3. It's rendered internally at full 1080p for each eye at 60fps without dips on PS4.
You have to widen the fov too, which means more geometry on screen. Rage or COD level graphics in vr at native resolution of the device are going to look fantastic.