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[GunFingers]

I don't really understand what you're saying, this is how the IGN article reads:


to me this sounds really bad, this sounds like games that aren't developed to support 1080i simply will not work with 1080i televisions, perhaps I'm reading this wrong.

IGN is a little confused. There are essentially four ways HD sets have handled 720p signals in the past (and today):
1. Don't handle it at all. When presented with a 720p signal, display nothing.
2. Downscale the signal to 480p and display the 480p image.
3. Scale the image to 1080i and display the 1080i image (or whatever higher res your TV displays).
4. Display it as is (native 720p sets).

#1 and #2 are the problems here. With the 360, there is an internal scaler that will send your TV whatever signal it can handle. The PS3 doesn't have this, and is relying on the TVs having scalers to keep HD in an HD format. But that's not always the case.

 

[Crazymoogle]

My tv does not take a 720p signal. However, in "normal" circumstances it takes a 720p native signal and upconverts it to 1080i. Are we saying now that this will no longer happen and the ps3 will force it down to 480p?

You're okay, just need to set 720p in your XMB as the preferred res...your TV will upconvert. If you set the XMB as 1080i it may get confused and boot you down.

 

[Vark]

Good lord, this is so ****ed up... I mean I didnt even know those kind of TVs existed. 1080i only?? Retarded...

480p and 1080i.

Its never been an issue because all the other HD equipment (set top boxes, dvd players, etc) will output BOTH resolutions.

Sony's the only one that wants to be different.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The real fix is that developers are going to be forced to render the games at 1080i themselves.

Just a quick question on how difficult it would be for future games to work around this. Assuming they've got a few megabytes of RAM free, could the game itself not just stretch the final rendered frame? It wouldn't need to actually render in another resolution, the only extra work would be equivalent to the sort of thing that goes on all the time with textures in games.

I thought people were moaning about the lack of 1080p sets, now theres 1080i only sets.

Fixed.

 

[pr0cs]

Well I guess it doesn't sound that bad but I'd definately wait till I saw on the boards that other people with my TV were able to play the PS3 using 1080i without issue. Though to be honest if I was able to get one this month I'd probably sell it anyway so the point is moot. :lol

 

[3rdman]

Why do people assume that this can be fixed via firmware? Unless the firmware fairies are able to magically create a scaling chip, nothing is going to change. This is a hardware issue (or lack thereof) and no amount of software is going to fix this issue.

The only solution I can see is if Sony insists that all their titles are 1080p mandatory...ths way the lower resolution will be gaurenteed to work. What frosts my ass is that the 360 came up with a rather elegant solution for this and they decided to simply ignore it. They also ignored the fact that some of their own TVs have this same issue! WTF?

This is my last post on this matter. I'm far from being a Sony fan and there really has been enough sand kicked in their fans faces...hell, I'm actually feeling pretty bad for them, really.

 

[rubso]

10 MINUTES!!!!! man that's awesome!!

 

[Brimstone]

So wait, im confused.

My tv does not take a 720p signal. However, in "normal" circumstances it takes a 720p native signal and upconverts it to 1080i. Are we saying now that this will no longer happen and the ps3 will force it down to 480p?

If you're trying to play a PS3 game with a 720p resolution and you're HDTV doesn't except 720p signals, the game will be output in 480p. This issue will effect a lot of older HDTV's, beceause the scalers don't have 720p support.


With a XB360 this doesn't happen because the XB360 has it's own analog scaler that converts the 720p resolution to 1080i if a HDTV doesn't support 720p.

 

[IJoel]

WAIT A SECOND!

My TV only supports 480p/1080i, but can't convert 720p. Does this mean I wouldn't be able to see HD content?

This is huge huge huge for me, if that's the case.

 

[Brimstone]

WAIT A SECOND!

My TV only supports 480p/1080p, but can't convert 720p. Does this mean I wouldn't be able to see HD content?

This is huge huge huge for me, if that's the case.

Yes. 720p games like Resistance will be downconverted to 480p on your display.

 

[No6]

WAIT A SECOND!

My TV only supports 480p/1080p, but can't convert 720p. Does this mean I wouldn't be able to see HD content?

This is huge huge huge for me, if that's the case.

You have a 1080p set that doesn't have a scaler? What brand/model?

 

[IJoel]

You have a 1080p set that doesn't have a scaler? What brand/model?

Doh, my bad. I meant 480p/1080i.

 

[kaching]

Why do people assume that this can be fixed via firmware? Unless the firmware fairies are able to magically create a scaling chip, nothing is going to change. This is a hardware issue (or lack thereof) and no amount of software is going to fix this issue.

While we're asking why people are assuming things, why are *you* assuming there isn't a hardware scaling solution available?

 

[manngc]

WAIT A SECOND!

My TV only supports 480p/1080i, but can't convert 720p. Does this mean I wouldn't be able to see HD content?

This is huge huge huge for me, if that's the case.

So far, if your TV can't accept a 720p signal, all 720p games on the PS3 (which is the majority so far) will not play in HD, only 480p.

 

[railGUN]

While we're asking why people are assuming things, why are *you* assuming there isn't a hardware scaling solution available?

Well probably because *if* it has one, it's pretty stupid to not be using it.

If you are suggesting Sony releases an external scaler of some type, that'd be pretty lame.

 

[Scottlarock]

Sony Official Adapter $39.99

 

[IJoel]

Holy crap, this is a pretty big oversight by Sony. There's something seriously wrong with their QA department if something as basic as this goes undetected.

 

[kaching]

Well probably because *if* it has one, it's pretty stupid to not be using it.

If you are suggesting Sony releases an external scaler of some type, that'd be pretty lame.

They are doing some scaling - BluRay and video stored on the HDD apparently scales fine. It remains an open question why they aren't doing it with games the same way.

 

[Joe]

is it safe to say that that at LEAST 25% of the world's HDTV's are crt 1080i?

 

[qirex]

is it safe to say that that at LEAST 25% of the world's HDTV's are crt 1080i?

no, and only a subset of those don't accept 720p signals.

 

[Norse]

well, they have even more issues...the man room and another site report hdmi handshaking issues as well.....would link to the thread on gaf, but too lazy.

 

[Joe]

no, and only a subset of those don't accept 720p signals.

theres a couple threads on avs forums that seem to say otherwise, like this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=489948

 

[Jeff-DSA]

theres a couple threads on avs forums that seem to say otherwise, like this one:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=489948

That's because qirex is talking out his ass.

 

[antiloop]

is it safe to say that that at LEAST 25% of the world's HDTV's are crt 1080i?

CRT HDTV? It must be a US thing. :lol

But we were late into the HD where I live so.

 

[JB1981]

The HD Era started when Sony's 1080p Bravia's arrived. Believe.

 

[Ynos Yrros]

Isn't there the custom resolution option in PS3 settings, that let's you choose what is the resolution your TV can take, and PS3 will upscale content to that?

 

[manngc]

Holy crap, this is a pretty big oversight by Sony. There's something seriously wrong with their QA department if something as basic as this goes undetected.

This is not an "oversight." The developers of Resistance were well aware of this issue since they show a warning about it if you have the dash set to something higher than 720p.

Kashing,
I think it's different for most videos due to processing done by the Cell before the video hits the graphics card. I'm assuming there is plenty of processing power left in the PS3 to easily rescale videos, but there might not be enough to rescale games, maybe. So developers like those of Resistance simply didn't support the higher resolutions because they were pushing the system so far with 720p.

 

[manngc]

Isn't there the custom resolution option in PS3 settings, that let's you choose what is the resolution your TV can take, and PS3 will upscale content to that?

No, and I believe the only options are 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i. The PS3 will only display the resolution that the game is programed to display, no upscaling on the PS3 will occur for games (unless a miracle happens).

 

[OverHeat]

The HD Era started when Sony's 1080p Bravia's arrived. Believe.

my SXRD XBR2 say otherwise....

 

[3rdman]

CRT HDTV? It must be a US thing. :lol

But we were late into the HD where I live so.

I jumped into HD back in 2000...its STILL the world's largest widescreen tube TV even after almost 7 years...I love it! There is no better contrast ratio or image quality. In other words, I don't regret my purchase in the least! To be frank, no other company has given me reason for concern until now.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Sony was gonna sell a version of the system without HDMI FFS. It's clear they're not that concerned with legacy support. I think it's a forward-looking plan why they would have left out scaling. It's probably saving them die space somewhere, and those "1080i" sets are getting boned right now. It really does suck. Most companies support their legacy devices fully. They should at least have issued some sort of warning or disclaimer. PEACE.

 

[IJoel]

This is not an "oversight." The developers of Resistance were well aware of this issue since they show a warning about it if you have the dash set to something higher than 720p.

This is even more troubling if it's by design.

 

[Brimstone]

is it safe to say that that at LEAST 25% of the world's HDTV's are crt 1080i?

CRT's sale rate for the last few years has been roughly in the 10's of millions. How many of those CRT's are HDTV's I don't know. But if we assume about 40 million sets are sold a year, over the last couple of years CRT's made up 25% marketshare of displays sold.

By next year, the tube TV will cede its crown of dominance to LCD sets for the first time, according to the market research firm iSuppli Corp. Sales of CRTs will fall from an estimated 14.4 million units this year to 10.4 million in 2007, and sales of LCD TVs are predicted to rise from 10.9 million units to 17.8 million.

By 2010, iSuppli predicts CRTs will account for only 2.1 million of the 44 million televisions sold.

link


These numbers aren't usefull though. To get a good idea, you need to have the sales data by market segement. A lot of those CRT's are going to be smaller than 26 inches.


This problem extends beyond HD CRT's sold, but other display technologies like Plasma displays. A lot of the older models don't except a 720p signal either. This isn't just about CRT HDTV's.

 

[JCBossman]

They are doing some scaling - BluRay and video stored on the HDD apparently scales fine. It remains an open question why they aren't doing it with games the same way.[/QUOTE

maybe it's because all the Bueray and HD hard drive stuff is all 1080p, and it is just downconverting?(but wouldn't that be considered "scaling")

 

[3rdman]

They are doing some scaling - BluRay and video stored on the HDD apparently scales fine. It remains an open question why they aren't doing it with games the same way.[/QUOTE

maybe it's because all the Bueray and HD hard drive stuff is all 1080p, and it is just downconverting?(but wouldn't that be considered "scaling")

Actually no. The games (and BR playpack assumedly) are being rendered at whatever resolution your TV accepts. If they place the bar at 1080i/p then there is no issue as there will be horsepower to spare at lower resolutions.

 

[Raistlin]

IGN is a little confused. There are essentially four ways HD sets have handled 720p signals in the past (and today):
1. Don't handle it at all. When presented with a 720p signal, display nothing.
2. Downscale the signal to 480p and display the 480p image.
3. Scale the image to 1080i and display the 1080i image (or whatever higher res your TV displays).
4. Display it as is (native 720p sets).

#1 and #2 are the problems here. With the 360, there is an internal scaler that will send your TV whatever signal it can handle. The PS3 doesn't have this, and is relying on the TVs having scalers to keep HD in an HD format. But that's not always the case.

A number of CRT's also do 540p when receiving 720p (I think several/most? that do this have selectable 540p/1080i).

 

[loosus]

Is there a way to tell if a CRT HDTV can accept 720p? I'm thinking of buying a 30" Samsung.

 

[Fafalada]

But does it have an upgradeable scaler?

When something isn't used at all, it doesn't exactly matter if it's upgradeable

(and BR playpack assumedly)are being rendered at whatever resolution

BR is authored in 1080 - it has already been "rendered" before disc was made. Displaying BR in any resolution that isn't 1080, will mean scaling.

 

[D2G]

if your tv only can do faux hd i suggest you buy a real hdtv

 

[ichigo kurosaki]

I thought people were moaning about the lack of 1080 sets, now theres 1080 only sets.

In Europe, they have the HD ready standard where all HDTVs have to support 720p at least and 1080p, whats the situation in Japan and how many US TVs were affected?

HD ready standard = 720p and 1080i