This is what happens when there is a dialog. I too hate blithe tokenism and see it as racist.
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Random Musing: Is the Woke Trend just part of a cycle?
- Thread starter TheInfamousKira
- Start date
This is what happens when there is a dialog. I too hate blithe tokenism and see it as racist.
OutRun88
Member
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BusierDonkey
Member
When all the danger hairs, furries and social justice heroes sink the studios that keep promoting them into positions of power and influence, the ones that are left over will fill in the gaps in the industry and make the games people actually want to play.
This is when we'll have a new golden era of video games where clever gameplay ideas thrive and new IPs become the norm. VR sets built into contact lenses, Cyberpunk that's always at night, Rob the Robot will be a full size robot and will actually kick the shit out of you at video games. Thanks to the more rapid advancement of technology due to merit-based hiring being re-adopted, there will be more people playing games than people living as people's minds are uploaded into mainframes when they die. The Super Scope 2 will have twice the battery life.
Then when those studios become established and the people running them forget why they became so successful, they will again cater to the pressures of over-represented social groups, release pandering garbage that targets people that don't care about games and destroy themselves just like the developers of previous generations.
It's the circle of life.
This is when we'll have a new golden era of video games where clever gameplay ideas thrive and new IPs become the norm. VR sets built into contact lenses, Cyberpunk that's always at night, Rob the Robot will be a full size robot and will actually kick the shit out of you at video games. Thanks to the more rapid advancement of technology due to merit-based hiring being re-adopted, there will be more people playing games than people living as people's minds are uploaded into mainframes when they die. The Super Scope 2 will have twice the battery life.
Then when those studios become established and the people running them forget why they became so successful, they will again cater to the pressures of over-represented social groups, release pandering garbage that targets people that don't care about games and destroy themselves just like the developers of previous generations.
It's the circle of life.
LockeKappa
Neo Member
I guess my question is, why is the portrayal of minorities held to this higher standard, that unless its the best and most accurate it shouldnt be allowed. I know a lot of LGBTQs who are desperate for good content. There's bad TV, movies and films all over the place. Forced and contrived narratives that dont involve any form of pandering or virtue signaling. They're just plain bad. Why are we suddenly drawing the line when it involves minorities, etc. Let them be bad, let them feel forced, and have those bad representations allow us to compare and rejoice when there's beautiful stories that precisely put us in those people's shoes. For every Batwoman there's a "Portrait of a Lady on Fire" We dont get one without the other, and for that I'm willing to accept the awful stories so that I can enjoy these otherwise unique tales.
Dabaus
Banned
I don’t know if it’s a trend or not but with sudden advent streaming content (movies and games) and ambiguous measures of “success” like game pass downloads for a particular product it’s impossible for us common folk to know if the new woke prog IP is a success or failure. My guess is that established, beloved IPs can get away with it for a sequel or 2 but at the risk of turning off massive amounts of the current fan base. Last of us 2 is a good case study of this because by all measures it seems to be a roaring success being one of Sony’s most profitable games and selling 5 million real quick. With that said I don’t see it being a beloved game like the first one was and that leaves the sequel in an interesting place. I think new IP with diversity character X may struggle if it’s too obvious what the shot is. For example I don’t think angry POC FPS fighting nazis or something analogue to that (hell to the modern left functioning societies and safe neighborhoods are the equivalent to the third reich nowadays) will be a roaring success, good reviews and all.
I think once products start to underperform in major ways they won’t put the woke stuff front and center in the marketing but every game will have its diversity quota met one way or another, unfortunately.
I think once products start to underperform in major ways they won’t put the woke stuff front and center in the marketing but every game will have its diversity quota met one way or another, unfortunately.
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TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
This reply is the golden standard for the well thought out replies and valuable insight that honestly made me join this forum. It's going to take some time to really digest this comment in full, but I hope I can comprehend all the subtle nuance that you're hoping to get across in your post. Thank you for taking so much time out of your day to reply to my little thread. I'll be first in line to read your thesis on quantum physics.
EDMIX
Member
Agreed.
I grow tired of hearing people claim a story is bad because of demographic AYZ etc. The story might just fucking be bad period lol Lots of games have stories that suck with straight people. I think this whole political, religious, culture etc thing has got out of hand and many seem to think anything they dislike must be a secret conspiracy to take over the world. I think its even funner when people make it seem as if its brand new and NOW it must be a thing that is "taking over" when these same people would have just bashed Fear Effect as being "woke" cause the character is a lesbian. So I don't buy that the same people complaining about "woke games" wouldn't be just crying over Fear Effect if it first released in 2020 or something. Its as if nothing can actually exist, everything must be a secret conspiracy.
I'd even argue the absence of such demographics seems more "forced" then if they are included.
If you took a video camera and you placed it in a classroom, Wal Mart, anywhere in America, you'll see gay people, straight people, black people, white people, republicans, democrats, librarians etc. People of all walks of life.
This idea that a gay person or black person or anything like that must be at this "higher standard" is the fucking stupidest thing I've heard in my whole life. 1 type of gay, black, white etc person doesn't exist, demographics vary greatly.
You have gay republicans, gay black people, straight black people, gay black people who are republican, white gay people who are modest, white gay people who are flamboyant and everything in-between, yet if you say this person is in a video game suddenly it must be an agenda? As if....such a person cannot exist, they must be "forced"?
So If I tell people I'm writing a book about a man that killed 30 children, folks....that doesn't mean I have an agenda to support murdering children, that doesn't mean it must be agenda as it MUST NOT be possible to kill 30 children ie (statistical bullshit argument that ignores its a fake fucking story), that such a person can't exist (ignoring that clearly they do and have) etc.
If people can accept a frictional story so fantastical like that, they can understand anyone's work that has a gay person, minorities etc. I'd argue, its more normal to walk out of your house and see someone like that on a normal basis in America vs a serial killer.... As to why anyone makes this weird argument and big deal about it in any work is beyond me as much more factual fantastical things have occurred with humans then "gay" and or "minority".
So I see zero reason why this standard must be applied that argues they must accurate or the best etc. Shitty gay people exist.... shitty minorities exist.....as a black man, I'm telling you guys I don't give a shit if a video game has a BLACK PERSON as the bad guy. Are we not allowed to be that? I don't care if they make them gay, are black people not allowed to be gay? I don't care if they are the GANGSTER, does that suddenly not exist ever?
I see it as fair game. If you can walk out of your home and spot it, fair game lol.
Reindeer
Member
I thought about writing something smart, but your thread didn't deserve it. Sorry.
If you are seeking specifically representation, you should be faithful and honest. If you want to highlight minorities and you portray half-assed stereotype it is disrespectful, lazy and pandering - it becomes more about the ‘virtue’ of the writer than it does about the character.
If you want to portray an interesting character that happens to be X, Y or Z, well congratulations, you are doing your job as a creative.
I think the issue is there is a lot of lazy writing that is being justified under the holy cloak of “diversity.”
By the way, there is a lot of good LGBT content. People seem to forget about Queer cinema. A lot of stellar authors were/are gay (Oscar Wilde). All of a sudden we have to jam our pop culture with gay characters, why? Queerploitation? Frankly, I’m annoyed people think LGBT media is something new. Todd Haynes would like a word with you.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
Alas, I'll have to come to terms with my failure to please the apex of intelligentsia incarnate. Don't apologize to me, I am but a humble servant. I've seen grown men take their own lives over the shame of failing to rouse the almighty Dinky from his bout of apathy induced shit posting.
Reindeer
Member
I admire your lack of bitterness for my lack of concern and bad manners. There is still hope for you.
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EDMIX
Member
Nah, I'd argue funny enough that is pandering..... As a black male, I don't give a shit. It would be like me arguing that we can't have a black character as a bad guy and oh he must be the mayor or President or a Doctor, yup something positive and "the best, most accurate" etc. Stop arguing that this fake standard must exist to please a demographic and put them only in this positive light or something in order for it to be in any work. As a black male....I'm not asking for that even remotely.
Black person a garbage man, gangster, doctor, rapist, serial killer, dumb character, smart character IDGAF, its fair game. Stop asking for characters to fit some mold to be "the best, most accurate" etc as humans vary GREATLY! It makes zero sense to make it seem as if the only acceptable minorities must be put in to be "the best" for a demographic.
No one fucking person can represent any race, demographic, religion, political party etc All people vary in personality, behavior, morals etc
Simply means you dislike the character......thats it. You are allowed to dislike characters.... I don't get this idea that all minorities needed to wow you to fit in any work or something. If the character sucks, the character sucks.
Yet you don't seem to understand that all minorities vary no different then the majority.... There is no fucking authentic black or gay person btw.
They can be any thing.
Doctor
money launder
Lawyer
Gangster
Police Officer
pimp
closed gay person
openly gay person
FLAMBOYANT gay person
So I don't honestly believe you can tell me no combination of those exist right now in the United States to argue something is questionable about the "authenticity" of representation in those works. Can you even name 1 thing in those works that you factually can say for sure has NEVER happened in the world at all to argue its not "authentic"?
How can someone measure the authenticity of a whole fucking race of people that by default will not all have the same values, attributes, personalities etc?
I mean, think about it...how would you rate my "authenticity" as a black male? So you would tell me how I'd really behave, think, act and what I'd do in all situations? (and I don't mean to suggest that is what you mean, but you need to help me understand what you mean by authenticity as I don't believe such a concept is feasible regarding this topic)
Azurro
Banned
No, it is the “with us or against us”, “guilty by association”, or had wavy statements such as “passive approval of <insert thing you want to accuse the person of but do not have any direct evidence of>”... it is that kind of stuff and aggressive (vigilant warrior) tribal behaviour that makes SJW and anti-SJW alike.
Reacting negatively and pushing back against a certain perceived ideology or society’s norm (being the underdog fighting injustice always helps people fee good and yet hurts critical thinking) does not make you a warrior, but constantly on the lookout and aggressively searching and calling people out with a shoot first and ask later mentality... that is just the same behaviour only fighting for a different banner.
If you see a gay main character and the first reaction is to start an anti politics in games rally or keep posting a certain anal sex screencap chasing all ND mentioning threads fishing for reactions feeling all smug (as if people’s ideas in writings, movies, music, and games never had a space btw) that is not that dissimilar to an SJW mob starting up a digital protest when they unheard a new protagonist may be a white binary male and/or said something that is similar to something that could have been said by someone not in clear support of ideas supporting D&I.
Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, but we are going to have to disagree on this one.
Let me try again, you have this crazy and insane quasi religious woke social movement, right? It preaches to have a solution to all moral problems and seeks to entangle itself in all parts of society and once powerful enough, seeks to make outcasts out of anyone who disagrees with their ideology.
Most people don't agree with this mob, but at the same time, most of us have responsibilities and jobs to attend to, so for a while nothing happens and they let the quasi religious movement to run amok.
The thing is though, they believe that they have to insert their message everywhere and they believe they have to replace all sorts of popular media and replace it with one with their approval. They can't create new IPs nor do they know how to, as their main intent is to push their narrative, so they infect everything they can.
Of course you'll have people complaining about this, they are the canaries in the coal mine, as the most passionate people of any media will be the first ones to go "wtf is going on with Star Trek/Star Wars/Doctor Who/Naughty Dog?!"
Now, my point is, if someone gets annoyed that people are complaining about this ridiculous ideology, then that most likely means that they approve of the ideology and don't want to see the criticism. Of course if it's a psychotic person crying wolf then yes that would have a point, but I don't think most people annoyed by woke stuff are part of that group.
It's like TLOU2, most of the defenders of that game are fans of that ideology or lgbt propaganda, while fans of the original game go "wtf happened to these characters?", and what is their first reaction? "You are an -ist because you don't want to listen to me preach you about trans rights in the apocalypse."
Woke people see the world through racist glasses, while normal people don't want such propaganda in everything they watch. I don't know how not wanting propaganda is ever the same.
Which is what people I think are not able to properly articulate when they say "I don't want politics in my game/show". In any narrative game, the authors thoughts and opinions will obviously shine through and that has always been fine. The thing is, when people say they don't want politics in this, what they mean is "please remove this intersectionalist, neo marxist and discriminatory propaganda from my games, please". I see nothing wrong with that demand.
Now, is it a shame now that every time there's a gay or lesbian character in a game that it's a sign it's a terrible woke fest? Of course and it's too bad as gay and lesbian people are the go to token of the woke and used as their human shield.
However, woke people unfortunately earned the suspicion. I am not buying another Naughty Dog game as long as I don't get proof it's not another ridiculous woke fest.
It is what it is man, I don't want to see monster lady characters talking about their sexual identities in a game, sorry.
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TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
I think we're pretty much on a similar page, definitely the same chapter, I might have phrased it badly. I meant "best, most accurate," in that quoted message as "written to a realistic standard. Behaving like that particular person would behave in that particular situation," I find, pretty often, actually, that characters in fiction (ESPECIALLY checkbox ticking ones) that represent a minority are pretty much infallible, or the narrative is spun so that any character flaws they have are VERY excusable. It's not often you'll find a minority character with legitimate human pathos, and that's what I find interesting. Not a character who's written in the least offensive and most homogenized way possible, who has character traits that could fit any race, creed, or sexuality. Basically, if you're going to have something in a story and publicize it like it's a huge deal, than make it narratively a huge deal. Good writing has a purpose for every shot, scene, line, panel or page.
EDMIX
Member
What would make it legitimate or not? People behave all sorts of ways. No one way would exist to really argue any legitimacy or standard.
Yet those things you brought up could very well fit a character that seeks not to offend people. That doesn't mean the character was written based on an agenda, someone like that very much exist in real life.
For you it does, not every single last thing about a character needs to be this deep "purpose". Its why I'm completely ok if a character is gay, black and thats simply all they are.....vs it needs this "purpose" or something.
So a cashier at a Wal Mart near my home is pretty openly gay. If we shoot a movie about this Wal Mart, oh he need a purpose? If we make a game about the people in this Wal Mart, he needs a purpose? What if he just happens to be a cashier at Wal Mart that happens to be pretty openly gay? Thats it..... not everything needs to fit this deep meaning, purpose, standard, legitimacy, authenticity etc For all you know, the writer is literally making a character based on someone they know in real life and that person legit might not actually have this deep purpose in real life enough to suddenly make their character drastically different in a book, film, game etc.
I just thought that the SJWs were the ones that were easily triggered by anything that defends their delicate sensibilities. I didn't realize there were many on the other side who were the same. The vast majority of LGBT people are regular folks trying to live their lives and having a game that features one as a protagonist is not some woke conspiracy.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
It's not that it, uh...offends my sensibilities, really. It's just a topic that interests me and I figured it may provide some avenues of thought and discussion that may be deeper or more engaging than BBW cosplays or Kotaku bitching about what the next Xbox is called. To the users who have replied in this thread in good faith, it's been fairly interesting to browse through, regardless of which end of the discussion you're personally subscribed to.
On one side you have people getting triggered because Days Gone has a gruff white male protagonist who jokes about riding his wife even though it is obvious in the game he deeply loves and respects her and then on the other side you have people triggered because a game feature a lesbian protagonist and a woman with muscles. It's going to get to the point where people won't even bother being creative anymore because you might offend somebody and all we end up with is corporate and soul less moneymakers that play it completely safe.
TheKillerStove
Banned
Cant speak for others, but my issue isn't with representation, it's representation at the cost of narrative depth. Too often people who implement representation for representation's sake are afraid to make their diverse characters flawed. That becomes a problem when flaws and character arcs are what gives a story depth. If your characters are the same when they end their story, people are usually left unsatisfied, even if they can't put their finger on why.
Let's take Captain Marvel as an example. At the start of the movie she is a rebellious spirit who is willing to break the rules to win. We get this at the beginning of the movie in the sparring match she only wins after using her powers, which Yon-Rogg says was against the rules of engagement. She argues about the merit of imposing that rule, and never accepts the answer given. So when it comes to the end of the movie and Yon-Rogg challenges her to fight hand to hand, no powers used, and she wins by blasting him with her hand lazers, nothing has changed. Her character has not grown or learned anything. Its not even like that quality is questioned over the course of the movie only to be reaffirmed in the end. She is never shown doubting her fighting skills or considering her overreliance on her abilites. She is always the same headstrong, confident self that uses her natural strengths to her advantage.
So why not just have her lose that original fight? That one change would give her a compelling character arc while maintaining the themes of persevering and utilizing what makes you special in the face of adversity. It still keeps the idea that society is in the wrong and needs to adapt around her, which is a very progressive ideal. So why not go that way? Simply put, they couldn't have her be weaker than or beaten by a man, even in service of the greater movie.
We see this time and time again in woke projects, and that is what I find so reprehensible. They consistently value ideology over story, and when you complain about the problems, they turn around and call you a sexist, racist, homophobic transphobe averse to diverse casts.
Vaelka
Member
It's just industries attempting to expand their audience, they're not doing anything out of the kindess of their hearts they're doing it because of $$$$$$$.
The problem is that a lot of marketers are fucking stupid and think that women and minorities are retarded and treat them like a monolith.
They also base a lot of their beliefs on social media research and trends, which doesn't really reflect reality at all.
Social media like Twitter is overwhelmingly white and dominated by a very particular group of kids and young adults. If you have the time and money to sit around all day on Twitter you're fairly well off and a lot of these people study social sciences and hang around those groups.
This used to be the case only the other way around, look at old commercials and how they marketed even completely nonsexual games and consoles. It was just completely random sexual commercials all over the place because marketing teams viewed video games as something for very stereotypical '' horny teenage boys ''.
They have similarly stupid ideas about women and minorities, just really stereotypical views of them.
I think that a lot of devs think that this is stupid too.
The same way that the Tomb Raider devs thought it was stupid and disagreed with how the marketing team for their game just focused entirely on Lara's sexuality above all else.
The devs usually have little control, and marketing teams have a lot of say because publishers listen to them and so do people up top in dev studios.
I don't think that anything is going to change any time soon, and I tbh don't think that it's ever going to change in the large studios.
New and upcoming studios are going to have more freedom the issue is that they don't have the money.
But the more corporate something becomes the less and less power the actual creators will have.
The problem is that a lot of marketers are fucking stupid and think that women and minorities are retarded and treat them like a monolith.
They also base a lot of their beliefs on social media research and trends, which doesn't really reflect reality at all.
Social media like Twitter is overwhelmingly white and dominated by a very particular group of kids and young adults. If you have the time and money to sit around all day on Twitter you're fairly well off and a lot of these people study social sciences and hang around those groups.
This used to be the case only the other way around, look at old commercials and how they marketed even completely nonsexual games and consoles. It was just completely random sexual commercials all over the place because marketing teams viewed video games as something for very stereotypical '' horny teenage boys ''.
They have similarly stupid ideas about women and minorities, just really stereotypical views of them.
I think that a lot of devs think that this is stupid too.
The same way that the Tomb Raider devs thought it was stupid and disagreed with how the marketing team for their game just focused entirely on Lara's sexuality above all else.
The devs usually have little control, and marketing teams have a lot of say because publishers listen to them and so do people up top in dev studios.
I don't think that anything is going to change any time soon, and I tbh don't think that it's ever going to change in the large studios.
New and upcoming studios are going to have more freedom the issue is that they don't have the money.
But the more corporate something becomes the less and less power the actual creators will have.
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