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Reddit "Above the Game" PUA Kickstarter achieves 800% funding, criticism
- Thread starter Anton Sugar
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TruckDriver
Neo Member
Their most popular article on there is "She Has a Boyfriend… Who Cares?". That's not really showing me the 'bright and sunny side' of PUAs.
(http://pickuppodcast.com/2009/01/07/she-has-a-boyfriend-who-cares/)
"Born out of the womb knowing"? Lol. Dude, no one is 'born' knowing how to talk to women. Socializing, be it with men or women, is a skill you have to develop. It takes you getting out of your comfort zone, taking a chance and striking up a conversation with someone. Sometimes you'll succeed, and this person will want to talk you more or get to know you better, but most times you'll fail. And that's okay! It helps you build confidence, and develop a callous to a fear of failure.
Yeah, some people are more naturally social than others. I wasn't social as a kid - I was fat, lonely nerd. But I learned how to be social by challenging myself to get out more, meet more people (not just women!) and live a more varied, fulfilled life. Using 'Game' does not get you that. You don't need a manual, a seminar, or a guy in a funny hat to tell you that. And when you see people as mere objectives and not, you know, people, how can you expect to grow as a person?
Hypereides
Member
Funny you ask. I never actually asked about it, or her conclusion.
She did however comment that she thinks most individuals in the book were self-destructive but eventually became a fan of Style for his perspective.
I believe however that people that posses such manipulativs skills will always remain questionable and untrustworthy.
What am I seeing here? I don't browse Reddit.
I never visited their site i only listened to their podcast about two years ago. The podcast stuff talks about stuff i mentioned about. As for confidence being needed, no shit. Some guys may have the balls to say hello but not able to hold a conversation shit takes practice and some guys need more help than others. Some guys are naturally very social and can talk to women easily, others may need a book to teach them stuff like demonstrating higher value. Some shit that's obvious to to some is oblivious to others. Whether you wanna call it charisma or game. It's easy to paint a picture of all self-styled PUAs as seeing women as nothing more than a notch on the belt. I am not gonna pretend that there aren't. That said i don't see why a guy reading a book on how to improve his chances with women makes him a guy who sees them as nothing more than notches on their belt. Hell they can learn to understand women better, this was something women who went to the signing claimed as well.
AFollowerNotALeader
Member
Seriously, guys who act like this are why if I were a girl, I'd want a concealed carry permit.
Nothing conquers the ardor of men like a .45 in the nuts.
Nothing conquers the ardor of men like a .45 in the nuts.
TheHeretic
Banned
It is interesting. Like most things there is a grain of truth in PUA, I imagine if you approach lots of women, eventually you'll get better at it. I also imagine by looking at the various ways guys do it some will be more successful than others. So in theory it should lead somewhere, and maybe it does.
A lot of it reads, really, really strangely though. I wonder if people really try to apply this stuff or its just a lot of pontificating, because its difficult to imagine doing some of this stuff in the real world.
A lot of it reads, really, really strangely though. I wonder if people really try to apply this stuff or its just a lot of pontificating, because its difficult to imagine doing some of this stuff in the real world.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
sounds kinda rapey
Kickstarter is extremely bad at shutting down projects that are obvious scams/extremely offensive, even if said project flagrantly violates the website's ToS.
They're terrified their service will drift into irrelevance if projects start getting shut down after funding comes through -- project starters losing faith in the service would be terrible for their bottom line, and, in some ways, I couldn't blame them for not shutting down the infamous "send a billionaire venture capitalist's daughter to a CS camp" kickstarter. Sure, its existence was infuriating, and the fact that it received funding was more than a little disappointing, but I can see Kickstarter's position -- giving into mob mentality, in that situation, could have harmed their company.
This isn't a scam, however.
It's a guidebook telling aspiring pick up artists -- misguided (if not downright misogynistic) teens, most of them too socially awkward to talk to girls on their own terms -- to SEXUALLY ASSAULT PEOPLE.
This is the point where I draw the line. It's harmful to society, it's harmful to the target audience, and, obviously, it's most harmful to the women who are targeted with these manipulative and forceful tactics.
I'm not here to argue if is guidebook is wrong -- it is. That's a goddamn fact any reasonable person can understand. Grabbing a woman's hand and forcing it on your genitals is sexual assault. "Negging" is also a ridiculous practice, and before you condemn me as a misandrist, I would find it equally reprehensible to see women using these practices on men.
All I'm saying is, Kickstarter seems to have reached the point where profits matter more than basic morality. This will harm their company moving forward.
Small business owners are not going to want their projects funded on the same platform as Men's Rights advocates, pick up artists, and venture capital scams.
They're terrified their service will drift into irrelevance if projects start getting shut down after funding comes through -- project starters losing faith in the service would be terrible for their bottom line, and, in some ways, I couldn't blame them for not shutting down the infamous "send a billionaire venture capitalist's daughter to a CS camp" kickstarter. Sure, its existence was infuriating, and the fact that it received funding was more than a little disappointing, but I can see Kickstarter's position -- giving into mob mentality, in that situation, could have harmed their company.
This isn't a scam, however.
It's a guidebook telling aspiring pick up artists -- misguided (if not downright misogynistic) teens, most of them too socially awkward to talk to girls on their own terms -- to SEXUALLY ASSAULT PEOPLE.
This is the point where I draw the line. It's harmful to society, it's harmful to the target audience, and, obviously, it's most harmful to the women who are targeted with these manipulative and forceful tactics.
I'm not here to argue if is guidebook is wrong -- it is. That's a goddamn fact any reasonable person can understand. Grabbing a woman's hand and forcing it on your genitals is sexual assault. "Negging" is also a ridiculous practice, and before you condemn me as a misandrist, I would find it equally reprehensible to see women using these practices on men.
All I'm saying is, Kickstarter seems to have reached the point where profits matter more than basic morality. This will harm their company moving forward.
Small business owners are not going to want their projects funded on the same platform as Men's Rights advocates, pick up artists, and venture capital scams.
thx, reddit
No one's allowed in her box.
The whole PUA thing is a mixed bag. Not my thing but I have read and known a fair amount of people in the scene. Yes, you have guys who are jerks, etc. But there is a VERY large part that just want to have the confidence and skills to connect with women in socially normal ways.
Most of the tactics, etc are really done just to create exposure so the person gets to a point where they are just socially comfortable around the opposite sex. Sure there are sleaze bags who just want to fuck lots of girls, but there are just as many who want to date lots of girls and find a relationship at some point.
Now regarding some of the stuff mentioned in the OP in regards to "touch" (not talking about the dick part) is not really what it sounds like. From what I understand its not that you want to just randomly start touching and grabbing the girl, etc. Its something you do gradually to indicate your interested. I think its more like a simple touch on the wrist or hands, etc. Which you gradually increase if shes into it. Some dudes may be misunderstanding what these guys are teaching. I don't think your suppose to force the girl on your lap if everything shes doing conflicts with that (words,body, eyes, etc.)
Dominance is a big factor and in many cases is effective, but its respectful dominance. Your leading the situation, but only if shes complying and giving off the right ques. Your pretty much leveraging the primal sides of the sexes.
Really lots of the stuff comes down to more advanced communication skills (multiple levels)which In many cases means CONSCIOUSLY using non verbal skills which are a huge part in human interaction.
Most of the tactics, etc are really done just to create exposure so the person gets to a point where they are just socially comfortable around the opposite sex. Sure there are sleaze bags who just want to fuck lots of girls, but there are just as many who want to date lots of girls and find a relationship at some point.
Now regarding some of the stuff mentioned in the OP in regards to "touch" (not talking about the dick part) is not really what it sounds like. From what I understand its not that you want to just randomly start touching and grabbing the girl, etc. Its something you do gradually to indicate your interested. I think its more like a simple touch on the wrist or hands, etc. Which you gradually increase if shes into it. Some dudes may be misunderstanding what these guys are teaching. I don't think your suppose to force the girl on your lap if everything shes doing conflicts with that (words,body, eyes, etc.)
Dominance is a big factor and in many cases is effective, but its respectful dominance. Your leading the situation, but only if shes complying and giving off the right ques. Your pretty much leveraging the primal sides of the sexes.
Really lots of the stuff comes down to more advanced communication skills (multiple levels)which In many cases means CONSCIOUSLY using non verbal skills which are a huge part in human interaction.
freenudemacusers
Member
that's pretty silly
The guy's advice referenced in the OP really isn't inherently wrong, just a bit crassly phrased. The issue is though, socially well adjusted, confident guys inherently know when they can start to get a bit more touchy feely in the interaction, and they know the signs that tell them to stop or go further. But put that info in the hands of basement dwellers who've never even held a conversation with a girl before...and you can see where this is going.
The problem in all the PUA / 'self improvement' things I've seen is that it operates on a standard that women are utterly different from men, almost like aliens that men need to study and carefully measure out their interactions with.
Instead of, you know, treating women like fellow human beings who respond positively or negatively to many of the same things you'd respond positively or negatively to. That is, unless you're one of those people who think sexual assault by women is hot and irresistible, in which case you have an overall problem interacting with society, not just dating women.
There are ways to make good impressions on people, and they're not very complicated rules, nor manipulative or restricted to courting women. PUA advice essentially churns out the same type of pseudo-likeable male with the same bag of tricks.
Also, DHV (demonstrating higher value) is still kind of manipulative and encourages lying and other bullshit that doesn't represent who the person actually is.
Again, the problem is not that people had sex, it's that PUA encourages men to dig their heels into a playground idea that women are incomprehensible alien things rather than people. It's not that there's something awkward and unappealing about you as a person, or that you hide the interesting things about you away from women for whatever reason, nooo... it's just that women need to be decoded, seduced, conquered, and gamed.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
PUA literature is the aspergians guide to human interaction. It's like learning to swim or ride a bike by reading how to swim or ride a bike.
entremet
Member
thx, reddit
What the heck is this?
personal space box! xD
entremet
Member
Sounds like she has mental illness or something. It's dumb.
^So weird, I would think the same thing.
dude people are stupid and easy to game. Look at politics and the war machine.
dude people are stupid and easy to game. Look at politics and the war machine.
DHV can range from walking into a club with an army of Swedish supermodels to just not looking like you're out on the pull and talking to everyone you see guy or girl. I don't think that it's as easy as you make it out to be when it comes to the opposite sex. Remember that rape thread based on that advert about what women wear? Some shit that seems logical in some women's head might not be too men. A guy may see a girl putting effort into her appearance more than might be usually expected at a club and think she is out to meet guy, girls will say it just means they are wearing what they feel comfortable. Some guys may not notice when a girl likes them and may need to be told and or taught what to look out for.
Wolves Evolve
Member
Apart from the inciting people to commit sex crimes?
RustyNails
Member
Lol dude got 16k for writing out his rape fanfics.
It's beyond that. It's not just "be confident and push forward and don't just sit there all night". It's telling you to ignore the rejection signals and try and basically sexually assault them. Grabbing their hand and forcing them to hold your dick? That's fucked up.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Some of this advice flies and some of it does not. There are way too many variables to entertain. In other words, there isn't an instruction manual on how to pick up women. Fortune favors the bold, I believe, definitely. You'll find that mostly the uninhibited have no problems with picking up women (which is why alcohol helps).
Anyone else gonna admit to buying into that David DeAngelo stuff back in the day? The 'Double Your Dating' ebook and the 'Interviews With Dating Gurus' CDs? He was really popular 10 or so years ago. His stuff wasn't nearly this creepy though.
Damn. For a site which has ignored and allowed some seriously dodgy shit, good on them for this one. And donating $25,000 to boot.
blame space
Banned
what are some other dodgy kickstarters that got funded?
The "Send my daughter to RPGMaker Camp" one where the mother appears to be an established scam artist comes to mind, there's a million page thread on it over on gaming side. People who reported the kickstarter got their accounts suspended for submitting false reports / clogging up the report system.
ThisWreckage
Banned
I disagree with them banning such kickstarters entirely. It's not like they can pretend they haven't allowed dubious kickstarters in the past.
I'm sure a kickstarter advocating violence is the way to go.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/9-year-old-building-an-rpg-to-prove-her-brothers-w
The mum is a multimillionaire known for doing scammy shit to be begin with, a lot of people complained but KS ignored it and she ended up with thousands.
Also the latest update is
Wtf?
No, it's actually advice encouraging sexual assault. If you don't see anything wrong with it, I suggest you take a long hard look at yourself.
Err, what...I'm having trouble following why you've cited a rape ad to illustrate why men have trouble with dating.
It is gross that his repeated attempts to get Jezebel to post it were smart--his target audience probably faithfully hate-reads the site, so getting posted there would be just the free publicity he needed.
Of course, his attempts were pathetically transparent enough they don't make him seem like much of a smooth operator, so.
This. If I was interested in some random hot girl, then I certainly wouldn't be opposed to her touching me and being seductive; I wouldn't want a random fat girl doing the same to me though.
PUA is so dumb. How hard is it to just be normal and first try to establish interest in the girl and go on from there.
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