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Reddit "Above the Game" PUA Kickstarter achieves 800% funding, criticism

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PUA is so dumb. How hard is it to just be normal and first try to establish interest in the girl and go on from there.

It's not really dumb. Certain guys are more successful with women and there are many variables at play. Dating and sleeping with women is a results based game. So if one man is being overly successful at doing those things then it's natural for people to seek his counsel. You'll find that a lot of women do not want "normal" in any way. Telling people to be themselves and to be patient is awfully shitty advice. I don't buy into PUA type bullshit, but I understand why some people do.
 

Bleepey

Member
Err, what...I'm having trouble following why you've cited a rape ad to illustrate why men have trouble with dating.

My point was the debate in that thread that surrounding it. Some people were saying that she looks up for it meant that she was looking to get laid, others were claiming it meant she was looking to get raped. Some people view a girl putting on revealing clothes may mean she's looking to get laid, it took some girl gaffers to explain to guys that that could be what she feels comfortable in. You claim that some stuff with the opposite sex is blindingly obvious but even something so obvious may have to be taught to the average guy. A girl wearing next to nothing does not mean she wants to get hit on by anyone.
 

Perkel

Banned
So sad that people believe this shit.

Actually that is more true to real life that you may think. I saw ton of dudes and chicks doing it on various parties. Naturally there is limit to what you can do to not offend chicks but that is individual thing for every chick and part of game. It can be read from people behavior if it is fun or not for them.

Most of chicks don't want charming, hearthful dudes that can work as towel for tears with nickname "yes-man".
 

Cyan

Banned
While I'm sure there exists pick-up artist material that is aimed at helping socially awkward men learn some social skills, this is probably not the best thread to make that argument in.
 

Bleepey

Member
I am actually watching an episode of Always Sunny called the DENNIS system by chance. Watching this episode and looking back at this thread and i can see why some may be put of by PUAs. Dennis is a complete sociopath.
 

Perkel

Banned
To be honest, I've seen people advocating going after girls already in relationships quite often here (particularly in Dating-Age). GAF isn't really any better in that regard.

I personally can't grasp what is wrong with that. Humans are not property of someone. If someone have more fun with other dude/chick then what is wrong with it ?
 

Tenks

Member
Overly sensationalized article title. But Jezebel is basically the worst site on the entire internet so thats normal.
 

magnetic

Member
Most of chicks don't want charming, hearthful dudes that can work as towel for tears with nickname "yes-man".

Being a manipulative asshole who thinks women are some sort of breathing treasure chest you have to break open and being a spineless, featureless blob without any opinion or charisma aren't the only two available options.
 

Cyan

Banned
Overly sensationalized article title. But Jezebel is basically the worst site on the entire internet so thats normal.

The title is "Redditor's PUA Kickstarter Project Recommends Sexual Assault." From what brief excerpts we're given, that seems to be approximately correct.
 

Tenks

Member
The title is "Redditor's PUA Kickstarter Project Recommends Sexual Assault." From what brief excerpts we're given, that seems to be approximately correct.

Give me a break it talks about trying to touch her hand and things like that. It doesn't say to grab her tit. Creepy? Yeah. Assault?
 
I personally can't grasp what is wrong with that. Humans are not property of someone. If someone have more fun with other dude/chick then what is wrong with it ?

Cool. Then like in the animal kingdom, you won't mind getting the shit beat out of you (or possibly worse) by a jealous boyfriend/husband. We are only animals after all. And all is fair in love and war.
 

Tenks

Member
It says to put her on your lap, dude.

It also says force her to turn down your physical advances. So theoretically you should stop if she says to stop. I've seen far, far worse than this by dudes trying to pick up girls at bars almost every weekend without police reports.
 

iammeiam

Member
It also says force her to turn down your physical advances. So theoretically you should stop if she says to stop. I've seen far, far worse than this by dudes trying to pick up girls at bars almost every weekend without police reports.

So, really, it'd be fine if it did say to grab a boob as long as it also said to stop doing it after she clearly states no? Touching somebody in an overtly sexual way (which--sitting somebody on your lap is a pretty domineering way of introducing physical intamacy) just because they haven't preemptively said no is essentially sexual assault. It's essentially "everything except no is automatically yes".
 
So, really, it'd be fine if it did say to grab a boob as long as it also said to stop doing it after she clearly states no? Touching somebody in an overtly sexual way (which--sitting somebody on your lap is a pretty domineering way of introducing physical intamacy) just because they haven't preemptively said no is essentially sexual assault. It's essentially "everything except no is automatically yes".

I've only had one guy ever, ever pick me up without my permission. It made me feel like a doll he felt the need to pose. Disgusting.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Perhaps we're reading different excerpts?

I can't believe this is real. It's so bad, this guy must be trolling?

Either way, advocating for people to physically touch someone without their permission, and doing so even after they say no, is beyond despicable. Why is anyone defending this. I don't get it.

It also says force her to turn down your physical advances. So theoretically you should stop if she says to stop. I've seen far, far worse than this by dudes trying to pick up girls at bars almost every weekend without police reports.

Just because it happens, doesn't mean it SHOULD be happening.
 

Menelaus

Banned
So either the guy that wrote this manual has Aspergers and can't pick up on these rejection signals, or he's full of shit and has never done any of the things he suggests.
 

Wazzy

Banned
I heard about this from a friend yesterday and I'm glad it's not getting funded. It's gross to think it almost did.

If any guy tried picking me up and forcing me on their lap they would get a nice heel to the balls.
 
I heard about this from a friend yesterday and I'm glad it's not getting funded. It's gross to think it almost did.

If any guy tried picking me up and forcing me on their lap they would get a nice heel to the balls.


No no, it got funded. They just said they won't let anything else like it get funded >.<
 
I heard about this from a friend yesterday and I'm glad it's not getting funded. It's gross to think it almost did.

If any guy tried picking me up and forcing me on their lap they would get a nice heel to the balls.

I'm guessing you didn't read the thread. It got funded, 800%....that part is in the thread title.
 
I'm guessing you didn't read the thread. It got funded, 800%....that part is in the thread title.

It's cause Kickstarter issued a 'We were wrong' statement. Reading that article, they basically apologize for funding this, say they can't take it back, but promise to never fund anything like it again.
 
It's cause Kickstarter issued a 'We were wrong' statement. Reading that article, they basically apologize for funding this, say they can't take it back, but promise to never fund anything like it again.

Yea i read that too, at least no more assaulty books will get published.
 
I am actually watching an episode of Always Sunny called the DENNIS system by chance. Watching this episode and looking back at this thread and i can see why some may be put of by PUAs. Dennis is a complete sociopath.

So from just the opening post of this thread you couldn't see why some people may be put off by PUAs? Really? That was fine, but the Always Sunny episode crossed a line?

I personally can't grasp what is wrong with that. Humans are not property of someone. If someone have more fun with other dude/chick then what is wrong with it ?

One of the easiest ways to know what is wrong, is to ask yourself "would I be ok if someone did this to me?"
 
Sorry I worded that wrong, heh. I meant I'm glad it wasn't published and was stopped by Kickstarter.

But it is seriously gross that it got fully funded before being cancelled. Ugh.

It's going to be published, though. They got the 800% funding, they got the money. Kickstarter said they couldn't close it out once it was funded. It was successful.
 
I know Ken personally. He's a pretty charismatic guy with a tendency to over-promise and under-deliver, but a rapist he ain't. A lot of this stuff is being taken out of context, I would suggest reading this:

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/21/ken-hoinsky-above-game-kickstarter

When confronted with these words, Hoinsky insisted his book makes a point of helping men understand what actions are appropriate and when. That particular section, he says, was offering advice for the moments after a man and a woman had already entered into the bedroom for consensual sex.

"That particular section" being the one everyone's talking about.
 

kaskade

Member
Actually that is more true to real life that you may think. I saw ton of dudes and chicks doing it on various parties. Naturally there is limit to what you can do to not offend chicks but that is individual thing for every chick and part of game. It can be read from people behavior if it is fun or not for them.

Most of chicks don't want charming, hearthful dudes that can work as towel for tears with nickname "yes-man".

If you are sitting next to a girl at a party (legs touching and everything) flirting hard. Why not just put her on your lap and advance from there? Should you go up to a girl sitting talking with her friends just grab her and sit her on your lap? No. It's about context.

I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong with the book but people should know what's appropriate in certain situations.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
It's not really dumb. Certain guys are more successful with women and there are many variables at play. Dating and sleeping with women is a results based game. So if one man is being overly successful at doing those things then it's natural for people to seek his counsel. You'll find that a lot of women do not want "normal" in any way. Telling people to be themselves and to be patient is awfully shitty advice. I don't buy into PUA type bullshit, but I understand why some people do.

basically. The best way to describe it is a logistical approach to dating women. The problem is that people mistake what should be considered at best "tactics" for a overall "strategy" on how to meet women. A lot of guys could see improved results just by dressing better (manshion) and maybe going to the gym a bit more.

The whole thing seems a little overblown to me.
 

Mumei

Member
So either the guy that wrote this manual has Aspergers and can't pick up on these rejection signals, or he's full of shit and has never done any of the things he suggests.

Third option: He can pick up on those rejection signals and he chooses to ignore them. There's research to support this, and I think it's a bad assumption to make that they're somehow on the spectrum.

I am actually watching an episode of Always Sunny called the DENNIS system by chance. Watching this episode and looking back at this thread and i can see why some may be put of by PUAs. Dennis is a complete sociopath.

Speaking of Always Sunny:

Why Do PUAs Tell Each Other To Creep Women Out?

Rest assured, I got everyone’s emails and tweets yesterday about the “pick-up artist” on Kickstarter who was raising money for his handbook on how to bully women who don’t like you into sex while preserving your claims to believe you had consent should you need to tell the police. I was traveling, so the fact that the guy was scrubbing the actual “advice” that he was promising would be in his book off the internet, made following the story doubly hard, but Casey Malone saved all that stuff (here’s the cached version) and to that we are grateful. Here’s a sample:

Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances…..

Let your hands roam free. Squeeze her ass. Rub the side of her breasts. Rub your hands up and down her legs. Make her push your hand away as you get closer to her vagina. Fucking ravish her.

Grab her hair on the back of her head, by the base of her neck, and pull it back aggressively…..

Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick….​

Remember: She’s not touching your cock because she wants to have sex with you! Booooorrriiing. She’s touching it because you made her and you’re bigger than her and you’ve already established that you’ll grab her hair and control her physically if she puts up resistance.

He did have some legalese to make sure that your defense in court is solid:

If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says “STOP,” or “GET AWAY FROM ME,” or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately and say this line:

“No problem. I don’t want you to do anything you aren’t comfortable with.”

Memorize that line. It is your go-to when faced with resistance. Say it genuinely, without presumption. All master seducers are also masters at making women feel comfortable. You’ll be no different. If a woman isn’t comfortable, take a break and try again later.

“Officer, she kept moving away from me and saying that she wanted that ride home I promised her, but since she was too scared to shove a man who has already demonstrated he will not take no for an answer, I figured I had consent.” Sadly, this line may even work to avoid the rape charges, because it’s surprising how most people expect women to be polite and deferential, and then turn right around and expect them to morph into Wonder Woman fighting off assailants at the drop of a hat. Even though most women reasonably fear that shoving a guy who has strongly established his unwillingness to respect your boundaries will just give him pretext to hit you, hold you down, and just rape you the hard way.

Here’s a post from Yes Means Yes explaining why it’s bullshit to claim that anything but a physical shove and shouting “no” counts as consent. Of, if you’d rather just watch a one minute video, let the characters from “It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia” explain it to you:

[video]

I’ve seen a lot of people who are reacting to this with confusion, pointing out that even if a woman doesn’t feel raped after you’ve bullied and scared her into “consenting”—or at least not fighting you off—she is going to think you’re a massive asshole and won’t speak to you afterwards. Since Ken Hoinsky and PUAs like him generally portray themselves as poor schlubs who just want the girls to like them, it’s hard to fathom why they go around doing stuff that will actually make women fear them and hate them.

Having watched the PUA community from afar for awhile now, I think I have an answer to that question: For a lot of them, especially the leaders, it’s actually not about getting women to like you. The “woe is me, I just want to be good with ladies” act, like the legalese about accepting a forcefully stated no, is mostly cover to create plausible deniability. A lot of the time, these guys have a bunch of poorly concealed anger at women right under the surface, and their behaviors are a way of punishing women for rejecting them. I mean, PUA boards are all about reinforcing and supporting each other’s misogynist claims that women are nothing but heartless “hypergamous” gold-diggers. Even the ones that aren’t overtly rapey often portray sex as getting one over on the women by exploiting their evil, black hearts that are only out for moneied “alphas”.

Don’t get me wrong: I think a lot of men are initially drawn to the PUA community because they’re looking for an answer to the question, “How do I get to be the kind of man women want to have sex with?” But by and large, PUA advice is about something else, a combination of justifying sex with women who don’t actually like you and convincing yourself that the reason women don’t like you is that there’s something wrong with the entire female gender, and not with you. Their boards have degraded to the point where a lot of PUAs just sit around bragging about how they sexually harassed women, making it clear that it’s far more about putting women in their place and not even remotely about actually making women like you. Smart men who actually like women eventually see through that shit and move along to advice columnists who actually want men to be better, like Dan Savage or Doctor Nerdlove. But for men who just want to sit around justifying their misogyny and ill treatment of women to each other, there’s the “pick-up artist” community.

Links in the text can be found at the source.
 
I know Ken personally. He's a pretty charismatic guy with a tendency to over-promise and under-deliver, but a rapist he ain't. A lot of this stuff is being taken out of context, I would suggest reading this:

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/21/ken-hoinsky-above-game-kickstarter

I don't care about context at this point. Cool, he might be a nice guy and know when to draw the line and when to push, or might only use these 'methods' on girls he knows like that sort of thing, that's great. This is the internet we are talking about where, where it seems half the population doesn't even considering women real people. This book is basically telling people to be aggressive and make her force you to stop. 'Context' isn't going to matter to a majority of this book's readership either.

Edit: What Mumei said.
 

Jenga

Banned
The title is "Redditor's PUA Kickstarter Project Recommends Sexual Assault." From what brief excerpts we're given, that seems to be approximately correct.
is there a difference between "sexual assault" and "being a dumb creep" tho

I say yes
 

Wazzy

Banned
It's going to be published, though. They got the 800% funding, they got the money. Kickstarter said they couldn't close it out once it was funded. It was successful.
Well shit, I completely misread. Now that's upsetting to hear. :/
 
is there a difference between "sexual assault" and "being a dumb creep" tho

I say yes

Sorry, if someone touches you in a sexual way without your consent, that is sexual assault. If you go up to a random woman, whip it out and make her touch it, that's sexual assault.
 

Jenga

Banned
Sorry, if someone touches you in a sexual way without your consent, that is sexual assault. If you go up to a random woman, whip it out and make her touch it, that's sexual assault.
so I can finally say with a straight face that I have been sexually assaulted by a woman
 
I don't care about context at this point. Cool, he might be a nice guy and know when to draw the line and when to push, or might only use these 'methods' on girls he knows like that sort of thing, that's great. This is the internet we are talking about where, where it seems half the population doesn't even considering women real people. This book is basically telling people to be aggressive and make her force you to stop. 'Context' isn't going to matter to a majority of this book's readership either.

Now I'm going to suggest you actually read the article I linked wherein he explains that advice is part of the section for when you've already been on a few dates and are at home/in the bedroom fooling around.

What you seem to be saying is that people are going to take a source of advice, cherry-pick it, fuck up, get in trouble, and blame the author. You can make the same point about pretty much anything: weight loss, fashion, how to draw, learning to cook, you name it.

HisshouBuraiKen
Member
(Today, 02:05 PM)

Is that right, KEN?

NOOOOOOOO MY DISGUISE IS UNDONE
srsly no.
 

Jenga

Banned
If she grabbed your hand and made you touch her in a sexual manner when you didn't want to, yeah.
I was drunk at the time so I didn't have a strong opinion. I did however have a female coworker work her hands down my pants tho. Was I sexually assaulted?
 

way more

Member
Self-improvement? I always thought that meant taking an art appreciation class, or learning a new cuisine. I never thought it meant use sex as a means of self-validation.
 

Jenga

Banned
Self-improvement? I always thought that meant taking an art appreciation class, or learning a new cuisine. I never thought it meant use sex as a means of self-validation.
for socially awkward men who've never have had sex, it's extremely validating
 
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