Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
Give me that any day of the week over wuxia wannabe bullshit.
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Return of the Jedi Cinematography.
- Thread starter supermarioworldE
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Give me that any day of the week over wuxia wannabe bullshit.
Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
I can hear the music while I watch this, so good.
Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
Chills, every time.
Fuck yeah. The lightsaber fight in Force Awakens is undoubtedly my favorite. Also, the behind the scenes of the snow area from Force Awakens is fascinating!
Lucky Forward
Member
There's a nice comparison of the cinematography of ESB and ROTJ in this old thread with lots of examples:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=262012
Keep in mind it was 1977 and no one had ever seen a light saber before. We were all like, "HOLY CRAP!!! FREAKIN' LASER SWORDS!!!"
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=262012
Keep in mind it was 1977 and no one had ever seen a light saber before. We were all like, "HOLY CRAP!!! FREAKIN' LASER SWORDS!!!"
Haloid1177
Banned
Because it breaks the whole scene. Kylo can't push past her in those five seconds? The Force suddenly makes her a badass lightsaber duelist? To be fair none of this bothers me when I watch the film, but if I'm gonna compare the scene to ROTJ or ESB duels it's important to note that the TFA duel just comes out of nowhere. Like the Finn part was cool, but the Rey part just looks cool but really doesn't make sense to me, even under the pretense she "absorbed" a lot of Kylo's training when she probed his mind. Admittedly all the scene's problems are in the narrative, it does look damn good.
It just breaks a lot of what Jedi training is. I mean hell in Episode VIII is she just gonna probe Luke's head and be the most badass Jedi ever? Because that seems entirely possible after what she did in TFA.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
IMO the Rey vs Kylo duel combines the powerful cinematography of ESB with the emotional impact of the ROTJ duel. It's a perfect mix of the two styles.
She was most likely a student of Luke's before Kylo burned it to the ground.
Just like with Luke there is a huge hole in her background story that will be filled in during the next 2 movies.
That whole scene gave me feels to the max. Starting from when she gets the lightsaber to when she levels up at the end. Granted I am a huge Star Wars nerd, but I loved TFA.
Escape Goat
Member
IMO the Rey vs Kylo duel combines the powerful cinematography of ESB with the emotional impact of the ROTJ duel. It's a perfect mix of the two styles.
This really wasn't a duel in the sense that Vader was simply testing Luke. He was never in any real danger. But the use of contrasting colors in the freezing chamber was great.
Haloid1177
Banned
But even when I take the age at which she was dropped off, it doesn't make sense. I agree that it was probably Luke that dropped her off on the planet, but she appeared to be a youngling, how much training did she actually have that put her on an equivalent level to an older student of Luke's who was then trained by Snoke? I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to where that works, at least with what we know so far.
And don't get me wrong, I love TFA, but the Rey vs. Kylo duel is easily my least favorite part of the film. Well not worse than that rathtar sequence but still.
I love ROTJ but I have to agree with this. I guess the pool of capable directors willing to direct Star Wars and not in the director's guild was pretty small? idk. Maybe Lucas should've got off his ass and directed it himself. ANH was made with five dollars and shoestring and it still looks better than ROTJ.
edit: just to be fair, ANH, ESB, and TFA are the only Star Wars movies with good cinematography. The prequels are shot like a CW show; nothing but alternating close-ups and gross CGI establishing shots. All of these movies are elevated by fantastic art, because otherwise they'd look like fucking shit (excepting those other three).
The most enduring memory of Jedi from my first viewing as a kid I have is Luke in black against the bright blue sky and the yellow sand dunes of Tatooine with the green lightsaber in his hand. However on recent viewings I found the entire opening to be pretty atrocious.
From a visual standpoint nothing comes close to ESB in the series. It feels truly operatic in every way.
From a visual standpoint nothing comes close to ESB in the series. It feels truly operatic in every way.
Yup. Coruscant in Episode III was close but it was too limited in scope (mostly because we drop in en media res so we don't get the same amount of stakes), while episode VII's slavish devotion to recreating the battle of Yavin meant we didn't get any real ship-to-ship combat.
Endor was a high-water mark for the franchise in terms of battles.
Dem Jedi acrobatics
I imagine it's pretty hard to perform choreographed fighting in a Darth Vader suit.
High water mark for any space battle seen in film IMO. Still how they did the crazy movement back then.
The force was never really well defined. Is Rey just more talented or powerful and how much of a difference does that make? It is also hard to tell if Kylo is a scrub or he was just weakened from his serous injuries.
For me the scene worked in the moment. As for the mystery of Rey's background and her becoming a badass in the star killer and against Kylo we will just have to see how well developed that story actually is in the next 2 movies.
Yeah. The ending fight to Jedi works because of the music, setting and emotion built from the trilogy. In context it's amazing, and it's shot beautifully. The choreography is really bad, though, but I'm more than happy to forgive it since it worked so well.
But that TFA shot alone shows how far the choreography has come, and it was beautifully shot; having the sabers actually glow added to a visually stunning sequence. My favorite duel in the series so far.
I like the vapour coming off the sabers, as well as that they actually cast light now. Proper use of improved technology to enhance the saber fights while keeping their core intact.
NealMcCauley
Member
I took it as he's trying to box Vader into a corner and not giving him a chance to escape.
I also like how hefty they look, how weighty the impacts are. As you said, it's a great evolution of the saber. It helps that they actually had lit sabers when shooting.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Maybe the Emperor knew there might be a fight there and had specifications that his throne room be made of saber resistant material.
Honestly getting that material is probably what caused such a delay in the construction of the Death Star. That shit takes fucking weeks to get shipped in from the Outer Rim. I don't know how the Emperor was expecting to have his deadline met with such ridiculous conditions.
Sabers don't cut through anything just instantly, it takes power behind them to do it. They bounce and ricochet off objects all the time in the films (even people, as when Luke whacks Vader's shoulder in Empire).
vatstep
This poster pulses with an appeal so broad the typical restraints of our societies fall by the wayside.
The snowy forest lightsaber battle from TFA is my favorite now.
This GIF is amazing. I just stared it at for a long, long time looking for the looping point.
Warm Machine
Member
Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
That shot is barely lit. It doesn't have any visible atmosphere. It succeeds through music and the dolly but otherwise, like most of Jedi, it looks like it takes place in an artificially lit set.
Empire is incredibly shot and lit. It used a more narrow depth of field. The as before mentioned millennium falcon cockpit shots between the films shot how much more lush and warm Empire is in comparison.
I'd also like to know why hair and makeup is so poor, especially on Luke.
VanquishUK
Member
I also love how in this scene you can really tell who the person with training is. Rey and Finn are clumsily swinging their lightsaber around while Kylo makes his lightsaber look like an extension of his arm.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Thank you much.
We can critique all the individual pieces that make up this scene, but at the end of the day this sequence as a whole is still the best out of anything else in Star Wars.
I think Lucas was determined to keep ROTJ within budget, unlike Empire which went over. He was much more strict with the production and was able to impose himself on Marquand whereas Kershner wouldn't give a shit about his influence.
And yet he still gets beat by an untrained person. They hype Kylo as the most powerful and he struggles with Finn who isn't force sensitive and then gets bitchmade by Rey who has never touched a sabre.
bananafactory
Banned
He's severely injured and weakened physically and emotionally. The force is also not something that you level up by putting in hours in a training class, it's vague and mysterious and can be channeled, and the extent to which someone can use it may vary greatly depending on that individual.
But yeah, that shot and entire sequence is very well filmed.
deltacanuckian
Member
I don't think he "struggled" with Finn either. Finn managed to get a hit in, but that only pissed Kylo off even more and he put Finn down right after.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
He may be more powerful (not a Sith master, just more trained), but he is also near dead. Did you forget what happened on the bridge?
JonnyDBrit
Member
Seriously, the fact he's even standing after taking the bowcaster hit - shown in the movie to hit like a freaking grenade - is a testament to Kylo's physical strength. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it served as setup for him dominating when they face each other again - him at full power and with no handicaps in Rey's favour.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
Agree, although 'The force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet' comes damn close.
I strongly suspect he will absolutely annihilate her in the inevitable rematch.
I really don't get these comments at all, were you not watching the preceding 5 mins of the movie?
Well that was the point. Rey was calm and "felt the Force" whereas Kylo was completely deranged after murdering his own father and being shot by his furry uncle.
Clashes between Force users are decided by a battle of wills, not by whoever has the most training or midichlorians.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Exactly, look at what happened with Darth Maul, he got arrogant and lost.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
I just wanna say I'm happy this is being discussed on NeoGAF.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I wouldn't say he struggles with Finn. He knocks him to the ground and lets him get back up instead of taking him out. It's his arrogance that lets Finn get a hit on him.
More_Badass
Member
That's honestly my favorite line in the series. It has such an aura of menace in the way Vader says it.
kame-sennin
Member
I think this fight is awful because it lacks emotional depth. We know nothing about Rey, so there's just no reason to care about her victory. The vast amount of information that is withheld really hurts the film. The fight between Vader and Obi-wan has a lot more meaning to it because we know why these two guys want to kill each other. Vader murdered Obi-wan's best friend and ruined his whole life. Vader hates his former teacher and has a massive inferiority complex. And underneath it all, there's a new kid who might change everything - and Vader has no idea. That twinkle in Kenobi's eye before he lets himself be killed says it all.
Kylo, who is a really well drawn character up to this point, seems to want to kill Rey because he's... jealous? Then he wants to train her because... I honestly don't know.
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Mine too, followed closely by every single line from the Emperor in RotJ
She is an extremely likeable character, who is in mortal danger from a guy who just killed the series' 2nd most popular character in cold blood. Was that not enough for you?
He wanted to Kill Finn because he was a traitor that took the map away from him. He wanted to train Rey as he was explicitly ordered to do so by his master.
WadiumArcadium
Member
He fights her because Snoke ordered him to bring her to him. I assumed he wants to train Rey as he's probably having thoughts of trying to overthrow his master.
I wouldn't agree about having no reason to care for Rey's victory either. No, we don't know who her parents were. But we know she's a good person and that she's brave enough to defend her friend in a fight against a trained force user.
-shadow-
Member
This always gave me the chills, Luke hiding from his father and also hiding from the darkness that could potentially doom him. The whole segment with him, Vader, and the Emperor is really stunning overall.
Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
This scene in its entirety elevates Return over Empire. I won't deny that Empire isn't the better made, paced, shot and what not film. But seriously the final sequence between Luke/Vader/Emperor is so ridiculously well done. And that music... Oh man! X3
Raiden1018
Banned
The cinematography in ESB is so amazing. i still watch the Luke Vs Vader seen to this day.
The lighting, atmosphere, direction, they're all so perfect. Plus, the 'I'm your father' at the end just tops it off with a cherry on top. I hope episode 8 tops it or atleast tries.
The fighting in TFA is awesome until Rey starts fighting. Shes just swinging and too much slow mo shots. When Kylo was fighting Finn it was much better
The lighting, atmosphere, direction, they're all so perfect. Plus, the 'I'm your father' at the end just tops it off with a cherry on top. I hope episode 8 tops it or atleast tries.
The fighting in TFA is awesome until Rey starts fighting. Shes just swinging and too much slow mo shots. When Kylo was fighting Finn it was much better
kame-sennin
Member
Those are the same stakes as in every other action sequence in the film, which is my point. Rey is super likeable, which is why we want to see her survive being chased by Tie fighters or stormtroopers. But the fights that are being talked about in this thread are personal conflicts that two characters are trying to resolve. They're like violent therapy sessions; father versus son, student versus teacher, a young man trying to avenge his father versus a general trying to redeem his greatest defeat. These scenes would be just as interesting if the duelists were sitting on couches screaming at each other. They matter in an emotional way, which is why they can overcome deficiencies in the choreography and special effects - while the duels in the prequels can't.
TFA comes halfway toward meeting this standard. It has the most sympathetic villain in the series' history. But there's nothing between Rey and Kylo because the filmmakers refuse to tell us what their connection is. It's one of the film's biggest flaws.
supermarioworldE
Banned
Thanks for the heads up. Huge fuckup on my part.
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