DiipuSurotu
Banned
They don't shoot because the Emperor wants Luke to watch his friends die slowly one by one.
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Return of the Jedi Cinematography.
- Thread starter supermarioworldE
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They don't shoot because the Emperor wants Luke to watch his friends die slowly one by one.
cloud_sleep
Member
ROTJ space battle is visually spectacular but I prefer the ANH Death Star battle. There's just more tension in it, I feel. Outside of the throne room scenes, ROTJ is just not that good.
Background plates filmed by walking a steadycam through the woods filming at 0.75fps,
Even after the rebel fleet attacks the Star Destroyers you still don't see much capital ship fire (though there's not a lot of scenes of the space battle after that point). Quickly scanning that part of the battle scene on youtube the only time you see capital ships fire at each other is a Nebulon B frigate and a Star Destroyer take a few shots at each other. There are a couple of scenes of Mon Calamari cruisers and Star Destroyers by each other but they aren't firing at each other.
I agree with this as well, but that's not to say that I feel RotJ is a bad movie, it's just ANH has flawless buildup and pacing.
I think it's generally poorly lit. It's very flat. One of the worst scenes is between Luke and Leia in the Ewok village. The lighting makes Mark Hamill look deformed, Carrie Fisher has way too much make up on... Ugly damn scene. Hume also lit For Your Eyes Only, one of the worst looking bond films. Not surprising he was the cinematographer on some Carry On's.
Alan Hume wouldn't have had anything to do with the miniature effect shots, so some of the lighting on those can't be blamed on him, but as a cinematographer he's kind of pedestrian. From what I remember reading in the Making of ROTJ there was some screw up with the film stock they were using early in the shoot - it was out of date or something weird. Also, George Lucas walked on the set of the Star Destroyer one day and noticed loads of green neon that Marquand and Hume had set up which was obviously completely wrong.
Jedi does have some great stuff in it though. The space battle on the second Death Star is bliss.
Alan Hume wouldn't have had anything to do with the miniature effect shots, so some of the lighting on those can't be blamed on him, but as a cinematographer he's kind of pedestrian. From what I remember reading in the Making of ROTJ there was some screw up with the film stock they were using early in the shoot - it was out of date or something weird. Also, George Lucas walked on the set of the Star Destroyer one day and noticed loads of green neon that Marquand and Hume had set up which was obviously completely wrong.
Jedi does have some great stuff in it though. The space battle on the second Death Star is bliss.
supermarioworldE
Banned
That's a much better analysis.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
I can accept that she became better in many things after accepting the force, but the one thing that still doesn't make sense to me is her mastering Jedi Mind Trick so quickly and easily, whereas even people like Anakin(who was pretty much Neo of the force) took a bit of time to actually learn and master it. A better version of the film would be to remove that scene entirely, even if it makes her character look slightly more vulnerable(which is ok to do since she is good at plenty of other things).
BigWeather
Member
I also love RotJ for the great world building it did -- tons of new aliens (some bad, most good), ships, Imperials (the stormtrooper is my favorite SW character so I may be biased), etc.
Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
Is it ever explained why the rails are never broken when the lightsaber hits them buts second later Vaders hand is chopped off?
MarkMclovin
Member
Pacing is probably the biggest knock i give ANH. I actually think it had three worst Pacing of the OT
She got a first hand example of how the Jedi Mind Trick works from someone who had quite expertly mastered the trick and expanded on its abilities - Kylo Ren.
A recurring thing in Force Awakens is that Kylo Ren sort of creates his own problems by trying to be a bad ass NuVader
DiipuSurotu
Banned
A solid metallic rail is more resistant than the joint between Vader's burned stump and his electronic hand.
I agree that ANH has more tension but ROTJs battle is more exciting and is wonderfully directed. So much is going on and the movement, speed and framing is probably still unmatched.
ROTJ is an excellent but flawed film. The only things I can think of that stand out in a bad way are Boba Fett's silly death, reusing the death star (which ended up working out great anyways).. I'm not sure if there's much else aside from nitpicking.
Good things: Jabba's Palace and the battle there, probably the most incredible space battle filmed, Battle of Endor (yes, believe it or not Ewoks do fit in with the SW universe so we can put our fedoras down), speeder chase, AT-STs, Yoda scene with Luke, Luke and Leia's conversation on Endor, throne room scene with the emperor, Luke's confrontation with Vader, one of best moments of cinematography of all time (Luke losing his shit and pounding away at Vader), Luke getting pummeled into submission by the emperor, Vader's redemption, final scene with Luke and Anakin, Luke burning Anakin's body.
Can we really argue that ROTJ isn't a good SW film? I think criticism if it is WAY over exaggerated and it got worse after EP7.
It was actually my GF's favorite when we watched the OT.
Good things: Jabba's Palace and the battle there, probably the most incredible space battle filmed, Battle of Endor (yes, believe it or not Ewoks do fit in with the SW universe so we can put our fedoras down), speeder chase, AT-STs, Yoda scene with Luke, Luke and Leia's conversation on Endor, throne room scene with the emperor, Luke's confrontation with Vader, one of best moments of cinematography of all time (Luke losing his shit and pounding away at Vader), Luke getting pummeled into submission by the emperor, Vader's redemption, final scene with Luke and Anakin, Luke burning Anakin's body.
Can we really argue that ROTJ isn't a good SW film? I think criticism if it is WAY over exaggerated and it got worse after EP7.
It was actually my GF's favorite when we watched the OT.
Mighty Chin
Banned
I think I saw this 50+ Times in the Theater. It's great.
RotJ has so many awesome moments, but it's not as good as it should have been; the original plans for the movie were much nicer (Han Solo dying, Boba Fett being a major villain, Leia not being Luke's sister but it being a different character, cliffhanger ending to the sequel trilogy, etc.).
Jack Random
Member
the ANH Trench run has some of the tightest editing in film history. IIRC, it was edited by Lucas' wife at the time
Jedi is great. Flawed in parts but damn great as a whole. It was my favorite as a kid (not because of Ewoks) and is still my favorite while still recognizing ESB is the best of the bunch. Would have been nice to see that Gary Kurtz preferred version of Jedi but what we got is still amazing.
The climax in Jedi is absolutely top notch - I love how the SW trilogy progressively expands the third acts. You go from one space battle in SW to a duel and a chase/escape in Empire to a space battle, a ground battle, and a more emotionally charged duel in Jedi. I love how those three different happenings are in such harmony in the climax. I might actually love TDKR's climax better than Jedi these days, but both are fantastic (as is LOTR: ROTK). I love my grand scale trilogy finales.
And let me just say that it's great that these days more people refer to the SW movies by their titles/nicknames rather than episode numbers. Calling everything episode IV, V, VI, IVIIVIDIVDI was a bane to my existence and relic of the "one saga" push with the prequels. Thanks, TFA marketing campaign!
The climax in Jedi is absolutely top notch - I love how the SW trilogy progressively expands the third acts. You go from one space battle in SW to a duel and a chase/escape in Empire to a space battle, a ground battle, and a more emotionally charged duel in Jedi. I love how those three different happenings are in such harmony in the climax. I might actually love TDKR's climax better than Jedi these days, but both are fantastic (as is LOTR: ROTK). I love my grand scale trilogy finales.
And let me just say that it's great that these days more people refer to the SW movies by their titles/nicknames rather than episode numbers. Calling everything episode IV, V, VI, IVIIVIDIVDI was a bane to my existence and relic of the "one saga" push with the prequels. Thanks, TFA marketing campaign!
RareFantasy64
Member
Exactly. ROTJ has quite a few of the best scenes in the OT
Some of these ideas sound pretty awesome. While I don't think TFA did anything great with his character, if Han had died in ROTJ, it would have changed TFA a lot. TFA has tons of fans (I'm not in love with the movie though), so in hindisght I've wondered if people would change their views on wishing George had killed off Han in ROTJ
Op is dead wrong about the forest consistency. A ten minute hike from sun side to shade side will give you all if that even if you ignore weather and clouds. Now absolutely it was probably just production schedule, but aesthetically there's nothing wrong with it and it even gives a sense of scale to the forest.
I have actually hiked that location dozens of times too.
I have actually hiked that location dozens of times too.
MarkMclovin
Member
Qui Gon had no issues sliding his into a rather thick blast door.
Empire is simply better shot throughout in terms of composition, lighting and how shots are constructed.
And the finale sequence of the duel in Empire on the catwalk is actually better than this. The camera angles are better, the fight choreography is more believable ( in the overhead shot in Jedi th pauses are painfully evident as is the railings strange resistance to lightsabers) and it has a far better resolution. Vader abruptly losses in Jedi because the plot decides it's time for him to do sobwhwreas Vader convincingly beats Luke with a nicely built up and framed sequence.
Even the pan is Jedi while helped by the music is s little dull due to the lighting and colour choices.
Empire is better, but there is nothing that tops this sequence.
And the finale sequence of the duel in Empire on the catwalk is actually better than this. The camera angles are better, the fight choreography is more believable ( in the overhead shot in Jedi th pauses are painfully evident as is the railings strange resistance to lightsabers) and it has a far better resolution. Vader abruptly losses in Jedi because the plot decides it's time for him to do sobwhwreas Vader convincingly beats Luke with a nicely built up and framed sequence.
Even the pan is Jedi while helped by the music is s little dull due to the lighting and colour choices.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
And by hiked you mean you went to hunt Ewoks.
It's legal in California if you have a permit for it.
We're really ragging on the throne room climax now? The lighting and colors are fantastic. Wouldn't change anything major about the way it was filmed.
Lucky Forward
Member
And then Lucas unsuccessfully pushed his luck in TPM with four plot lines during the climax: a duel, a space battle, a ground battle, and Amidala's group storming the throne room.
Also, back in ESB just before Vader cornered Luke on the gantry, he easily sliced through three thick vertical poles, the stubs of which remain for the rest of the scene.
Oveja Negra
Member
Yeah, about the rails, I don't know why some people insist in doing some revisionist BS, when as the posters above show, there are examples of a light saber going through metal like a hot knife in butter.
The rails in that ROTJ not being affected by Luke's saber is just an inconsistency regarding the damage the saber can/can't do. Most probably Lucas (or whoever was in charge for that) thought nobody was going to pay attention to it.
BTW I don't think it ruins anything. It's just a minor flaw.
The rails in that ROTJ not being affected by Luke's saber is just an inconsistency regarding the damage the saber can/can't do. Most probably Lucas (or whoever was in charge for that) thought nobody was going to pay attention to it.
BTW I don't think it ruins anything. It's just a minor flaw.
I have to admit, I never noticed it! Never thought about it until now. Surprising that they left that in there. Of course, they could be special Imperial-grade hand rails.
Oveja Negra
Member
I have to admit, I never noticed it! Never thought about it until now. Surprising that they left that in there. Of course, they could be special Imperial-grade hand rails.
It could be, it could be. Maybe the Empire was really concerned about troopers' safety so they decided to use the hardest metal in the whole galaxy when making those rails. Safety first!!!!
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
I actually thought those sequences were edited together pretty well, just that the ground battle looked pretty poor, aside from the bit where the battle droids are deployed. The lightsaber duel was the star of the show and the other two sections were just fine.
PdotMichael
Banned
A light saber that can cut through spaceship grade metal would basically melt a human body just with a little touch.
From it's very conception, TFA was made as a response to the ending of RotJ and the reaction to the prequel trilogy. It's a great movie, but it's story would not have ever been made if it wasn't for that. It would have been a very different movie. For example, Luke and Vader's battle and confrontation with the Emperor would have been in Episode 9.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
It's definitely a movie goof, but that doesn't mean it can't have a logical explanation in-universe.
You mean this sequence?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUbXyd-fK8Q
Are you going to deny that he took over ten seconds to make his cut and that he had to use both hands? He is NOT going through it like butter. If it were a thin wooden door he would have instantaneously fruit-ninja'd his way through it using one hand. The door being thick and resistant clearly makes a difference.
Also, back in ESB just before Vader cornered Luke on the gantry, he easily sliced through three thick vertical poles, the stubs of which remain for the rest of the scene.
Because Vader has superhuman strength.
Also, in ROTJ, Luke's sabre is self-made (he lost his dad's old one down a pipe on Bespin) so it might just be a bit crap.
supermarioworldE
Banned
No problem, and thanks for posting.
I'm not tagging on it: I'm pointing out it is inferior to Empire in objection to the statement it's better.
It's one of the best scenes in Jedi: it still trails the better scene in Empire.
Jefi to Empire is uncharted 3 to Uncharted 2.
If you actually assimilated context of my wording this is obvious.
I'll never get the internees binary: he said that's worse so he's saying it's awful mentality. It's good, it's just not as good as something else.
People are allowed to like something AND critique it you know.
Absolutely not what I meant. I'm not saying you can't critique something good, just that I didn't agree with what was said here (I could have been more clear and for that I apologize):
Could not disagree with you more here (bolded). We're really arguing that because a railing didn't break the scene is weakened? That's more nitpicking than anything else.
Vader abruptly loses? The entire POINT of this build up was that Luke became increasingly powerful over the course of the trilogy and fulfilled his destiny of becoming the Jedi Knight who faced and overcame his challenges (Vader, the emperor). The emperor even had foreseen this.. "he could destroy us", he says to Vader, in ESB. He knew that Luke would be more powerful than Vader and specifically set up the confrontation in order for him to kill his father and fall to the Dark Side. The emperor wanted to use Vader as a stepping stone for turning Luke and aligning his path. Even Yoda had foreseen this.. he explains to Luke he'll only be a Jedi after he faces Vader again because he knew that would be his final test. This is very poor criticism and a complete failure to follow along with the plot.
How was the way the scene was shot "dull" in any sense of the word? It looks incredible; both sabers are brightly lit against a dark background which worked perfectly well considering Luke was, for a brief moment, totally absorbed in the Dark Side, pounding Vader back into submission. Sure, it might not be as incredible as ESB, but I'll be damned if it's "dull".
Those are the criticisms I had a huge issue with in your original post. It had nothing to do with comparing the two scenes.
VanquishUK
Member
Well of course he's no Yoda or Mace Windu, but he certainly looked more familiar with the weapon than the other two.
I think he clearly had training but that he wasn't very skilled at dueling. TFA reminded us throughout the film that Kylo was only a shadow of what he was trying to be and never quite succeeded at equaling and surpassing Vader.
That's part of the point. He's going to complete his training with Snoke and that could even involve dueling, for all we know.
The only real skill we see with his saber is where he deflects Rey's blaster but we know that's mainly his skill with The Force than anything else (think back to ANH when Luke blocks bolts without vision).
supermarioworldE
Banned
Apparently, the forest sequences were filmed during all parts of every given filming day, As Lucas wouldn't allow the crew to "wait for the sunlight" in the forest. It was decided early on that the look would be very misty and murky (as it was during the morning hours), but given the rush to film during all parts of the day, the brighter afternoon sunlight gave the crew problems in keeping the look consistent (which they tried to work around).
https://www.questia.com/magazine/1P3-1296644871/location-photography-for-star-wars-return-of-the
Imo, the crew tried the best that they could to keep the lighting consistent, but it doesn't match in many forest sequences of the film, and often looks flat.
LegendofLex
Member
The two main examples of bad lighting are fatally flawed.
- Of course there's a giant light source in the Endor space battle - the battle takes place really close to a moon that's reflecting tons of light back into space.
- As for the forests: they're forests. There's tons of shade everywhere even when the sky is bright. It also helps that the main battlefield is probably in the shadow of that giant shield-projecting dish.
- Of course there's a giant light source in the Endor space battle - the battle takes place really close to a moon that's reflecting tons of light back into space.
- As for the forests: they're forests. There's tons of shade everywhere even when the sky is bright. It also helps that the main battlefield is probably in the shadow of that giant shield-projecting dish.
supermarioworldE
Banned
The problem with the first idea is that even before the rebel fighters enter lightspeed to get to the Death Star, the same amount of light illuminates the Falcon's cockpit, despite many shots in that pre sequence showing only stars around them.
As for your second point, I agree that going from darker areas of the forest to lighter isn't much of a problem, but there are moments where even stationary characters have severe changes in light from shot to shot. The DP and crew had to shoot those sequences in all parts of each filming day, in very different areas, and very different light and weather conditions, and it shows.
Darth Pinche
Member
ROTJ's space battle still has some of the greatest effects shots of all time.
I agree, but just can't unsee the groups of TIE fighters that just appears in the shot as they fly towards you. They are ones that are on the out edge of the ships coming at you. I never understood why there never fixed this in the special editions.
The Ewok hate is totally unjustified. They work well within the SW universe.
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