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[gofreak]

Sorry Sony, first sale rights.

Funnily enough they'd be bestowing more rights on the original owner. Charging for online for a second or third owner isn't really taking anyone's rights away as far as content ownership is concerned..is it?

 

[plagiarize]

Funnily enough they'd be bestowing more rights on the original owner. Charging for online for a second or third owner isn't really taking anyone's rights away as far as content ownership is concerned..is it?

i'm pretty sure also that every online game sold on the ps2 has a disclaimer about online support not being guarenteed. after all, you can't play nfs:u online on the ps2 any more, and someone buying that used wouldn't have any option.

i'm not saying those practices will have stopped, just that if you read up on what your rights are with regards to the online portions of games, they're pretty thin.

 

[Lortnoc Egamad]

Meh, it's just a dumb rumor.

What I believe is that this system will be fully optional, otherwise PS3 would be headed only to households with broadband internet - and that's not many households.

 

[meltpotato]

Meh, it's just a dumb rumor.

What I believe is that this system will be fully optional, otherwise PS3 would be headed only to households with broadband internet - and that's not many households.

so incredibly wrong... you should revise that statement to homes with their boradband hooked up to a gaming console.

 

[RuGalz]

That's why you would want to expand your sales of new games by dropping their price. People won't buy used and 100% of game sales dollars go towards NEW SOFTWARE. Besides, at a much cheaper price, you're going to sell a lot more copies of each game. Impulse buying would be much greater as well. Heck, why would you even rent a game at $7 when you could BUY IT NEW for $20? You probably wouldn't...

Ever bought those 20 dollars games? That's the quality you like to see in games? There's definately a market for those games to make money that's why they exist but if that's the quality you want in all your games sure. The problem with games is that there's no multiple ways to make money out of a single product and used market makes the situation far worse.

I buy all my games used. That's a horrible, horrible idea.

We don't like you anyways since we never see your money.

 

[Funky Papa]

Nice to see people really learnt something from the whole DRM situation.

Barf.

 

[gofreak]

What I believe is that this system will be fully optional, otherwise PS3 would be headed only to households with broadband internet - and that's not many households.

This would all be completely irrelevant to you if you don't have broadband, since the only repurcussions would relate to whether you pay for online play or not. If you're not online, that's not a concern.

(Are people reading this stuff..? :lol )

 

[teepo]

But there is something about movies that people seem to forget:

Most revenues are from Cinemas, not DVD sales. Especially big blockbusters. Videogames don't have such revenue stream beside retail.
Of course profit is more difficult to make with videogames in this case.

only 30 to 40 percent of the total revune for a blockbuster movie comes from box office ticket sales. that number even shrinks with lower budget films.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Funnily enough they'd be bestowing more rights on the original owner. Charging for online for a second or third owner isn't really taking anyone's rights away as far as content ownership is concerned..is it?

Don't even try to spin this gofreak. If I buy a ****ing game I can do whatever I like with it -- and that includes giving or selling to someone like it is new.

Just don't bother.

 

[The End]

Sorry Sony, first sale rights.

Eat poop if you plan on implementing this.

now, now

you know that producers have no obligation to facilitate that right

(go ahead and try to sell a used copy of windows on Ebay and see what happens)

 

[Dragona Akehi]

now, now

you know that producers have no obligation to facilitate that right

(go ahead and try to sell a used copy of windows on Ebay and see what happens)

Annnnd that shouldn't be!

 

[Pope Benedict XVI]

Don't even try to spin this gofreak. If I buy a ****ing game I can do whatever I like with it -- and that includes giving or selling to someone like it is new.

Just don't bother.

I think gofreak kinda has a point. If you give someone an xbox360 game and that person doesn't have a subscription to Live, then he or she won't be able to avail of all the features you enjoyed. The same basically applies here, except that sony gives buyers of new games an online service for free.

 

[duk]

how much will this cost?

 

[meltpotato]

I think gofreak kinda has a point. If you give someone an xbox360 game and that person doesn't have a subscription to Live, then he or she won't be able to avail of all the features you enjoyed. The same basically applies here, except that sony gives buyers of new games an online service for free.

I'm with Dragona on this.. it seems unethical to try to control the end-user rights on consumable media. alot of the counter arguement rests on "they can" and software licensing examples which are not forms of media/entertainment. it's a really slippery slope and i don't want to see this kind of control come over one of the few things i buy.

it just seems like our freedom to game is impeded

I don't know if "freedom to game" is a bit much, but i do think this makes things too complicated. Rewind to when you were a young kid with your SNES.. how do you think you would have percieved all these complicated entitlements and user-rights and microtransactions? someone not as hardcore as people on this bored are probably getting even more frustrated with next gen.. they are GAMES for ****'s sake

 

[duk]

Don't even try to spin this gofreak. If I buy a ****ing game I can do whatever I like with it -- and that includes giving or selling to someone like it is new.

Just don't bother.

it just seems like our freedom to game is impeded

 

[gofreak]

I'm with Dragona on this.. it seems unethical to try to control the end-user rights on consumable media.

This would have nothing to do with ownership rights. This would be about your "right" (?) to free online gaming. There's general issues going forward with regard to DLC and end-user rights, but that's a different issue than that raised here.

And sorry Dragona, but it's fair spin

 

[jett]

This can't be real, can it? Rental chain stores am ****ed total?

 

[The End]

If you remember, Sega did this first with PSO for DC :lol

 

[Pope Benedict XVI]

I'm with Dragona on this.. it seems unethical to try to control the end-user rights on consumable media. alot of the counter arguement rests on "they can" and software licensing examples which are not forms of media/entertainment. it's a really slippery slope and i don't want to see this kind of control come over one of the few things i buy.

So are you also equally annoyed by the fact that Microsoft charges for some of its online services? If you don't pay the Live Gold subscription fee then you cannot avail of all of your games' potential features. Aren't they thereby controlling end-user rights?

I can't believe i'm defending sony on this

 

[kaching]

I can't believe i'm defending sony on this

Don't worry, it's just a rumor...so you're really just defending a hypothetical Sony.

 

[meltpotato]

So are you also equally annoyed by the fact that Microsoft charges for some of its online services? If you don't pay the subscription fee then you cannot avail of all of the game's potential features. Aren't they thereby controlling end-user rights?

I can't believe i'm defending sony on this

I don't entirely agree with you there. I think there is a difference in buying a product with knowledge of a pay service and then the product really not changing in what is available to the next user nor having a much purchased software registered, monitored, and tracked by Sony (MS/Nin for that matter)

that said, i think XBL should be free so in the end im already equally annoyed

 

[Error]

how can people spin this? it's not about free online or whatever, it's about the rights that you as a consumer have.

 

[IJoel]

I'm very intrigued as to the effect this will have on online games from MS and Nintendo, as well as the quality of Sony's online service, if it relies on this as a source for revenue.

 

[jarrod]

If you remember, Sega did this first with PSO for DC :lol

Follow our lead. :lol

 

[Dragona Akehi]

This would have nothing to do with ownership rights. This would be about your "right" (?) to free online gaming. There's general issues going forward with regard to DLC and end-user rights, but that's a different issue than that raised here.

And sorry Dragona, but it's fair spin

Let's just all get reamed up the ass! WHO NEEDS DIGITAL RIGHTS FOR CONSUMERS!


Sorry gofreak, it isn't fair spin. You always make good posts, but this is corporate shilling.

I can't believe people are actually defending a corporation's wish to screw consumers over digital rights! I mean shit, we're all piraters anyway! Who needs rights!

 

[bishoptl]

Wtf is this, piece of shit devs with their piece of shit games selling them at the same price as the top games, how about that?

How about the fact that games already cost more?

"Oh dev costs" gtfo, most devs games aren't even going to cost half of what top games cost last gen, and you still sell your game at premium. F dev rights.

Watch your tone.

It's painfully obvious that you have no idea as to what's involved in recouping budget costs when it comes to development, and while a few folks in this thread have already explained the used-game issue as developers and publishers see it, I'll break it down for you in a manner more befitting someone of your stature.

Game sold new = I get moneys
Game sold used = I don't get moneys
Game sold used with online locked = the consumer has an incentive to try the game and possibly pay to unlock online player, meaning I might get some moneys

Anything that guts the current system where stores post record profits on continued resales - money that doesn't come back to the creators - is fine by me. Having CD-keys linked to online play isn't foreign on the PC side of things, and I'd love to see that carry over to the console market as well.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Not that a big a deal IMO.

 

[kaching]

how can people spin this? it's not about free online or whatever, it's about the rights that you as a consumer have.

The basic right to buy or not buy the product, either new or secondhand is retained...so exactly what "right" is the consumer losing here?

I don't entirely agree with you there. I think there is a difference in buying a product with knowledge of a pay service and then the product really not changing in what is available to the next user nor having a much purchased software registered, monitored, and tracked by Sony (MS/Nin for that matter)

Here's another scenario for you then - what about when some publishers deactivate their servers that support online play for one or more of their games? Are they obligated to keep those servers running into perpetuity just so that you can resell a game you bought to someone else and tell them it works exactly the same as it did day one?

 

[teepo]

Game sold used with online locked = the consumer has an incentive to try the game and possibly pay to unlock online player, meaning I might get some moneys

Anything that guts the current system where stores post record profits on continued resales - money that doesn't come back to the creators - is fine by me. Having CD-keys linked to online play isn't foreign on the PC side of things, and I'd love to see that carry over to the console market as well.

i always assumed the lack of used pc games is because of this very reason. the used pc market was huge before the whole cd key thingy came around.

 

[Funky Papa]

What people are not realizing (if not deliberately ignoring) is that if true, it would be just the begining. MS and Nintendo would jump in, and it wouldn't take too much time to see way stronger restrictions. I can totally see videogames DRM'ed up the butt (I know, weird expression)

As I said, I don't think Sony is that stupid, but I swear I will boycott all Sony products if they dare to pull such thing.

 

[meltpotato]

Here's another scenario for you then - what about when some publishers deactivate their servers that support online play for one or more of their games? Are they obligated to keep those servers running into perpetuity just so that you can resell a game you bought to someone else and tell them it works exactly the same as it did day one?

they have no obligation regarding my intent to resell (and i actually never resell games nor buy them used, just on principle) but i do think it's irrisopncible for a publisher to seel you a game witht he online component and disable it if they are tired of supporting their product. This is why peer to peer game serving is great (and we all know the millions of reasons it sucks) But i like that i can still play quake 2 online and am not interested in supporting something that im buying primarily for online when if i can assuem the online will probably be gone in a year or two.

What people are not realizing (if not deliberately ignoring) is that if true, it would be just the begining. MS and Nintendo would jump in, and it wouldn't take too much time to see way stronger restrictions. I can totally see videogames DRM'ed up the butt (I know, weird expression)

As I said, I don't think Sony is that stupid, but I swear I will boycott all Sony products if they dare to pull such thing.

Like i said.. very slippery slope. and you can be garunteed that when digital dist comes to pass there will be some crazy-strict DRM stuff. Nintendo is probably chomping at the bit

 

[gofreak]

Let's just all get reamed up the ass! WHO NEEDS DIGITAL RIGHTS FOR CONSUMERS!

Sorry, but you've no right to free online (unfortunately). And to make sure we're on the same page, that's what we're arguing, right..?

I wish, and hope it's free regardless of whether your game is used or not, but there's no obligation on Sony to provide free online to anyone, and it's within their right to discriminate between owners of new games and used game buyers in this regard. I'd prefer them not to do this, I think everyone would, and I'm not defending it to that extent, but what I'm arguing here is the nature of the system and what it means.

Maybe I'm missing a subtlety to the proposed system that relates to ownership rights or the like, and if I am, I'd be happy to have it pointed out.

 

[duk]

this is the beginning of the end

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Sorry, but you've no right to free online (unfortunately). And to make sure we're on the same page, that's what we're arguing, right..?

I wish, and hope it's free regardless of whether your game is used or not, but there's no obligation on Sony to provide free online to anyone, and it's within their right to discriminate between owners of new games and used game buyers in this regard.

Maybe I'm missing a subtlety to the proposed system that relates to ownership rights or the like, and if I am, I'd be happy to have it pointed out.

I ain't arguing SHIT about Online. Sony has no right to know what I'm playing, if it's used or "factory sealed". This is about digital rights. If consumers don't fight for their goddamned rights we lose them.

I swear to god, if some people could get their way, I couldn't buy a goddamned book used without having to pay the publisher to open the goddamn thing and read it.

If this is just for online it's just as bad. What's next? It's a slippery slope.

 

[RuGalz]

they have no obligation regarding my intent to resell (and i actually never resell games nor buy them used, just on principle) but i do think it's irrisopncible for a publisher to seel you a game witht he online component and disable it if they are tired of supporting their product. This is why peer to peer game serving is great (and we all know the millions of reasons it sucks) But i like that i can still play quake 2 online and am not interested in supporting something that im buying primarily for online when if i can assuem the online will probably be gone in a year or two.

Let me ask you then, why should developers even give customer support and/or online support, which costs them moeny, for an USED product if they don't benefit from it? (Rising cost of customer support on used product has been a problem not just games but for all consumer products.) You can resell as you please but don't expect us to support the new owner unless you give us some reason to.

 

[gofreak]

I ain't arguing SHIT about Online. Sony has no right to know what I'm playing, if it's used or "factory sealed".

If your concern is privacy or information disclosure, then that's hardly at the crux of this system, or something unique to such a system. Any online network, whether it employed stuff like this or not - Live in its current incarnation, for example - can track what you're playing, the passage of games from one machine to another even, and so on. That becomes a concern as soon as you connect your system to the net, TBH.

 

[IJoel]

If this is just for online it's just as bad. What's next? It's a slippery slope.

This is what worries me. You can bet that if 3rd parties see revenue from this, they'll pressure MS and Nintendo into doing the same thing. And in a not so far away future, we'll all have to enter damned codes to play games and be tied to our gamertag, making them non-transferrable. Meaning that even though you're buying software in a physical media, the real thing you're paying for is a non-transferrable license.

 

[meltpotato]

Let me ask you then, why should developers even give customer and/or online support, which costs them moeny, for an USED product if they don't benefit from it? (Rising cost of customer support on used product has been a problem not just games but for all consumer products.)

that is a problem that the industry has been facing for years. that doesnt mean that this invasive solution is good for the consumer.

 

[duk]

seriously, i'd just rather pay 50 bucks a year for online play

 

[Dragona Akehi]

If your concern is privacy or information disclosure, then that's hardly at the crux of this system, or something unique to such a system. Any online network, whether it employed stuff like this or not - Live in its current incarnation, for example - can track what you're playing, the passage of games from one machine to another even, and so on. That becomes a concern as soon as you connect your system to the net, TBH.

You're spinning this again.

 

[RuGalz]

that is a problem that the industry has been facing for years. that doesnt mean that this invasive solution is good for the consumer.

I think you might just win nobel prize if you can come up with an economy model to solve this problem that's completely non-invasive...

 

[IJoel]

You're spinning this again.

You're causing an exception in Gofreak's CPU.

EXCEPTION 0xC0000003 - "UNABLE TO DETERMINE SONY FAULT"

;p

 

[meltpotato]

I think you might just win nobel prize if you can come up with an economy model to solve this problem that's completely non-invasive...

that's my priority for this morning. i'll try to get you something EOD

 

[RuGalz]

that's my priority for this morning. i'll try to get you something EOD

sweet

 

[gofreak]

You're spinning this again.

I'm not saying it's right (information tracking etc.). It is a legitimate concern. I'm just saying this isn't a unique problem with a system such as that proposed, and that's a concern that already exists.

If you're worried about the general slippery-slopeness of this, and what could come next, that's again a legitimate concern. I've a pretty pessimistic outlook as is with regard to where we're ultimately headed, but it won't be directly because of systems like that proposed in the OP (at least in the long term), but with what's to come with the rise of digital distribution.

 

[Kangu]

Why are people comparing this to books or movies? The markets aren't anywhere near comparable. The biggest videogame retailers in the country make over half their profits off used games sales (name anything comparable for books or movies plz), not only that, they actively undermine developers and publishers by pushing customers towards used games where they reap massive profits.

Developers and publishers are obviously not without blame. The prices of games are out of control and they keep games from ataining mass market status.

 

[jett]

So uh is this confirmed or what?

 

[TTP]

With each new PS3 game you buy the content (what's on the disc) and the service (online play). Think about those 59$ as 54$ content + 5$ online service.

If you buy a used game, Sony doesn't offer you that online service anymore unless you pay. They can do that cos you don't have any right on something you didn't pay for (online play).

 

[meltpotato]

Why are people comparing this to books or movies? The markets aren't anywhere near comparable. The biggest videogame retailers in the country make over half their profits off used games sales (name anything comparable for books or movies plz), not only that, they actively undermine developers and publishers by pushing customers towards used games where they reap massive profits.

Developers and publishers are obviously not without blame. The prices of games are out of control and they keep games from ataining mass market status.

movies: use to have "Rental pricing", lose millions of dollars due to Divx downloading and bootleg DVD sales. the internet is bleeding the movie industry like crazy and now netflix is killing the once booming DVD sales market

books: libraries and used book stores cut into profit BIGTIME. chains like borders and B&N bend over backward these days tryign to get people to buy new books. thats why you see more "sure bet" chick lit and it's next to impossible to publish a book for a niche audience or that can't potentially chart on the NYT bestsellers.

 

[kaching]

i do think it's irrisopncible for a publisher to seel you a game witht he online component and disable it if they are tired of supporting their product.

I think you're being overly glib by chalking it up to nothing more than being "tired" of supporting the product. Resources are finite and most aging products reach a point where there's more disadvantages than advantages in continuing to maintain full support.