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[3rdman]

I can't say this is all that bad an idea...they do indeed screw over those who would buy their games used, but they don't see money from them anyways. I can see a backlash though at retail...boutique stores will be paying out far less for a used game to its original owner because of this very issue...resale values ought to be pretty damn low as well for online enabled games. I can't see stores like EB pushing a system when they can't make the same money on its used games as well as they could on other systems.

Everybody here who doesn't have a problem hopefully doesn't have a problem with selling their games back for next to nothing. Doesn't really affect me as I'm a bit of a pack rat.

I'm at work so I haven't read through this whole thread so excuse me if these issues have already been brought out...

 

[Mmmkay]

With each new PS3 game you buy the content (what's on the disc) and the service (online play). Think about those 59$ as 54$ content + 5$ online service.

If you buy a used game, Sony doesn't offer you that online service anymore unless you pay. They can do that cos you don't have any right on something you didn't pay for (online play).

Technically you can purchase, second hand, a game which was never played online or connected to the internet by the first consumer. This means that you benefit at their expense, since the service won't register the Game ID as being owned by anyone.

 

[TTP]

Technically you can purchase, second hand, a game which was never played online or connected to the internet by the first consumer. This means that you benefit at their expense, since the service won't register the Game ID as being owned by anyone.

Yep.

 

[meltpotato]

I think you're being overly glib by chalking it up to nothing more than being "tired" of supporting the product. Resources are finite and most aging products reach a point where there's more disadvantages than advantages in continuing to maintain full support.

well you arent quoting the part where i said that peer to peer game serving is great. im painfully aware of the continued resource issues and am as sympathetic as i can be. however, im also very protective over my rights and privacy. also, like i sated much earlier, the devs have much to lose in alienating their audience through having overly complicated ways to own their product or play online. in fantasyland, i have Live w/matchmaking free by way of ad-support and game hosting is peer-to-peer with no asshats with horrible connections.

oh and all retarded 13yr old kids don't exist

and holy shit i appologize for my typing/spelling in what you just quoted. wtf

 

[TTP]

boutique stores will be paying out far less for a used game to its original owner because of this very issue...

This really depends on how much it's gonna cost to go online with a second hand game. What if it's just 2 dollars?

 

[Kangu]

movies: use to have "Rental pricing", lose millions of dollars due to Divx downloading and bootleg DVD sales. the internet is bleeding the movie industry like crazy and now netflix is killing the once booming DVD sales market

Yeah..how about something legal? I was referring to actual retail chains that undermined content creators in such a manner.

books: libraries and used book stores cut into profit BIGTIME. chains like borders and B&N bend over backward these days tryign to get people to buy new books. thats why you see more "sure bet" chick lit and it's next to impossible to publish a book for a niche audience or that can't potentially chart on the NYT bestsellers.

I can't name a single used books store, certainly not one that is a major retail chain. As for libraries...well I've never really used a public one, so I have no idea as to how popular they actually are. I'd appreciate it if you could provide some kind of link with more info.

 

[kaching]

I ain't arguing SHIT about Online. Sony has no right to know what I'm playing, if it's used or "factory sealed". This is about digital rights. If consumers don't fight for their goddamned rights we lose them.

So start a Playstation Antediluvian Society that never connects their consoles to a network and then trade games with each other to your hearts' content. Your consumer rights will remain unfringed.

well you arent quoting the part where i said that peer to peer game serving is great.

It's still potentially a support issue for the company - just because you're accomodating enough not to expect them to support peer-to-peer gaming doesn't mean every other customer will feel the same. Ultimately it's a feature they built into the product, so somebody is going to demand they support it.

 

[3rdman]

This really depends on how much it's gonna cost to go online with a second hand game. What if it's just 2 dollars?

True I hadn't thought about that. Still, I doubt it'll be as little as 2 bucks though considering that it costs the original owner 59 dollars for that same privilidge.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I can't name a single used books store, certainly not one that is a major retail chain.

Half-Price books has 80 stores in 14 states. There are several other small chains around here and at least a half-dozen independent used book stores here in Cincinnati. Used books seem to sell pretty well on Amazon, eBay, etc.

As for libraries...well I've never really used a public one, so I have no idea as to how popular they actually are.

Speechless.

 

[Mmmkay]

Yep.

Which, instead of a pervasive service imposed on all second hand customers, makes it pretty much pot luck whether you're going to be charged or not. This was one of my issues with the initial thread proposal on 'entitlements'. Being inconsistently told you owe money is going to cause confusion amongst consumers. It's impossible to determine if a title has been registered (because in doing so you effectively bind it to that user), and that means the second hand markets likely won't adjust their prices to refelct this surcharge.

So, until they manage to treat all second hand purchases equally, I can't really approve of this scheme.

 

[Panajev2001a]

that's still an extra expense on my part, even if it'd be one that works out cheaper in the long run.

i was just figuring that since the system i'd be playing on would need to be online for it to matter, that it'd be nice if i could just log in with my username and password and not have to deal with it, sort of like the way Steam authenticates things.

You might do it as well as Rugalz and TTP were saying, you CAN bring the Memory Card with you, but the same information (User ID, Disc Unique ID, etc...) can be input by you (well the Game Disc Unique ID is read by the disc) and matched with the Host Server if your console is connected the the Internet. It was a way to give you the extra ability to play your game even where you do not necessarily have Internet connectivity.

 

[meltpotato]

It's still potentially a support issue for the company - just because you're accomodating enough not to expect them to support peer-to-peer gaming doesn't mean every other customer will feel the same. Ultimately it's a feature they built into the product, so somebody is going to demand they support it.

agreed. there is no easy answer to the problem, but i really don't think that what is rumored is the best one. i think thats really the heart of the issue for most of us crying foul.

 

[xaosslug]

That's some grade-A bull**** you're trying to push there. If companies are complaining about declining profits, maybe they should stop pricing the mainstream out of gaming. $60 is not a mass-market friendly price tag for any product. Movies make TONS of money on DVD sales at $15-$20 because the buying mainstream can afford to buy many each year.

With a lower price point you'd increase sales of NEW software and the value in buying used would be diminished greatly. Used game stores exist because of developer/publisher greed. Lower the price point, invite more buyers, and kill the need for cheap alternatives.

The Movie Industry and Gaming Industry are two completely different beasts that share slight similarities, and the comparisons you're attempting to draw lose their weight on account of that.

That's why you would want to expand your sales of new games by dropping their price. People won't buy used and 100% of game sales dollars go towards NEW SOFTWARE. Besides, at a much cheaper price, you're going to sell a lot more copies of each game. Impulse buying would be much greater as well. Heck, why would you even rent a game at $7 when you could BUY IT NEW for $20? You probably wouldn't...

You can't be serious--they would be losing a lot of money if they sold double-triple-quad the amount of games at a 59.99$ price tag, correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[kaching]

agreed. there is no easy answer to the problem, but i really don't think that what is rumored is the best one. i think thats really the heart of the issue for most of us crying foul.

I don't see where anyone is calling this an ideal solution but what exactly is the "best" solution? Or, at least, a better solution? The only solution I see floated as a better solution is for publishers to drastically cut prices on games so customers aren't as likely to engage in secondhand sales. Yet, I never see anyone provide compelling proof for how this would drastically increase unit sales such that devs and pubs actually receive more profit than they do now.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Watch your tone.

Your mood must be jolly all the time , good it must mean your life is doing great .

Ah the days where a funny look at another poster or a mod would mean getting hurt... the days of gangsta-modding... sigh...

.

 

[Mooreberg]

They should keep the more comprehensive stuff like stat tracking and friends list for the people who buy new games, but there should also be some type of basic service for games that are rented. If somebody rents Motorstorm and likes it, but has the purchase hinge on how much they would enjoy the multiplayer, they should be able to hop into unranked basic games or something to that effect. They could be screwing themselves if people don't get at least a glimpse of what the game fully offers when they rent it. I can understand wanting to undercut the used game sales. Look at what GameStop does with PC games, which only further kills the sales on top of all the piracy.

If they're going to cut off used and rented games entirely, they better be ready to have one-level / one-track demos available for what they are publishing, because you can't blame people for wanting to know what they are getting before they buy a game.

 

[jett]

The PS3 is not a system for cheapskates, in any case. Wario cries.

 

[Bojangles]

You know what Sony should really do?

They should sponsor some high-price lobby groups to try and eliminate rights of first sale, fair use, transferral of ownership, and other rights.

They should try to get an Electronic Levy in place that comes out of everyones tax dollars to offset anything that might have had a negative impact on their god-given right to make profit.

I'm trying to avoid the industry mafia ban-hammer here, but some of you guys make me sick with your PUBLISHERS DESERVE MORE MONEY crap.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

You know what Sony should really do?

They should sponsor some high-price lobby groups to try and eliminate rights of first sale, fair use, transferral of ownership, and other rights.

They should try to get an Electronic Levy in place that comes out of everyones tax dollars to offset anything that might have had a negative impact on their god-given right to make profit.

I'm trying to avoid the industry mafia ban-hammer here, but some of you guys make me sick with your PUBLISHERS DESERVE MORE MONEY crap.

This man gets it.

 

[Nameless]

Thing is that I save well over $50 a year buying used games, and buying games from the couple of friends/family that are really hardcore gamers rather than buying everything that comes out new myself. This also extends the amount of time that publishers will be able to keep games at their original $59.99 price tag.

Personally, I would rather than just pay $50-$60 a year and that be it, than then have Sony implement something like this that will end up costing me 3x that in order to keep their online-service "free". Only way I support this is if ALL dowloadable content is free. All the micro-transactions, map-packs, etc.. etc.. are at no cost.

 

[Forsete]

I mostly buy new games, still I do not like the sound of this idea.

I hope it never happens.

 

[d0x360]

If that's the ONLY time it is used, I support the idea. Then it basically just becomes like a cd-key for online gaming and maybe some of the profits will be cycled back to the publishers/developers.

Plus free online play is always cool.

Yes free online play is great until the servers start needing maitnence and it takes them months to fix problems that should be corrected in a day or two. Im all for free but im not willing to trade uptime and stability for it.

The reason Xbox Live costs money is because MS handles all the authentication and match making servers which means they are always running at tip top shape. Look at the Dreamcast as a model of free. Every publisher had to run its own server which meant the interface was never the same, games never performed the same, sometimes they never performed at all and they would close down unless they had X# of users. Of course some of these problems can occur on XBL as well but only if MS hands the power over to a publisher for Match Making...ie EA.

I'd rather just pay the $50 and be done with all the hassle.

 

[Faizal]

I'm just trying to understand Sony's motivation here. Is it to try to one-up or out-do Microsoft in terms of online play, or is it to stop/regulate the sale of used PS3 games? Because if it's the first, it doesn't make much sense, sounds like a lot of needless hassle and complication with not much benefit to gamers .

 

[Skenzin]

Technically you can purchase, second hand, a game which was never played online or connected to the internet by the first consumer. This means that you benefit at their expense, since the service won't register the Game ID as being owned by anyone.

Nope, because according to the patent when a game is played on a system a unique "hash" is written to the disc based upon a unique identifier on each console. So whether you went online or not the hash is written.

Sucks if your console ever breaks. Could luck getting hold of customer support via phone on "free" service. Im sure they're gonna hire lots of help.

Basically there is no free, you pay one way or another. PS3 owners aren't going to get free online play their just gonna get nickle and dimed at every corner or get unreliable service. Sony really has some people tied around thier fingers. They keep treating their loyal fans horribly.

When it's all said and done you'll have about the same chance of taking a ps3 game online and playing for free as th ps3 launching in spring '06. Don't you see a pattern of Sony saying one thing and delivering another.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I don't get the pay $50 upfront for online and then buy used games all year ideology. I don't get the "I only buy used games" deal either... Do you guys want game developers to go out of business? Do you have some special fondness for EB where you would rather support them then the people that actaully make the games?

Then there is the old counter "make better games HARHAR" uh... why are you buying shitty games in the 1st place?

I mean if that is your attitude why not just buy the console and pirate your games?

 

[jjasper]

You know what Sony should really do?

They should sponsor some high-price lobby groups to try and eliminate rights of first sale, fair use, transferral of ownership, and other rights.

They should try to get an Electronic Levy in place that comes out of everyones tax dollars to offset anything that might have had a negative impact on their god-given right to make profit.

I'm trying to avoid the industry mafia ban-hammer here, but some of you guys make me sick with your PUBLISHERS DESERVE MORE MONEY crap.

Your arguement was cool and all till you pulled that, who deserves the money then?

 

[kaching]

You know what Sony should really do?

They should sponsor some high-price lobby groups to try and eliminate rights of first sale, fair use, transferral of ownership, and other rights.

They should try to get an Electronic Levy in place that comes out of everyones tax dollars to offset anything that might have had a negative impact on their god-given right to make profit.

I'm trying to avoid the industry mafia ban-hammer here, but some of you guys make me sick with your PUBLISHERS DESERVE MORE MONEY crap.

These companies are never going to give up on their "god-given" right to make profit and consumers are never going to give up on their "god-given" right to demand goods that bring them more and more bang for their buck. This isn't about who deserves what it's just the simple reality that if both sides actually hope to settle a transaction, they have to find a middle ground that's acceptable to both. Since the demands on both sides are always a moving target, so too are the terms of the final transaction.

The irony here is that this rumored scheme doesn't seem to do anything to eliminate those basic consumer rights such as first sale, fair use or transferral of ownership and may even provide incentive to platform owners and publishers to endorse these rights since the preservation of these consumer rights could actually bring them revenue where it hasn't before. You can slap a DRM label on it just to lump it in with all the more draconian DRM measures out there but, as DRM goes, this looks to be a smarter solution than past efforts from content owners that achieves a better balance between the god-given rights of boths sides.

 

[meltpotato]

Your arguement was cool and all till you pulled that, who deserves the money then?

i think what he is saying is that people are arguing for increased pub revenue when plenty of them are already making tons of money.

 

[Mrbob]

This shiznit has been going on for years with PC gaming. I like this idea because it guarantees the copy of the game I bought hasn't been gutted and resold as new.

About time console gaming starts getting with the times of what PC gaming has had in place for years.

Stop being whiney bitches over this issue. Don't buy piece of shit games that are used just to have them in your ever growing collection of games you don't play. I don't buy many games anymore, but I like to see developers of games I enjoy get their monies, so they can make more games I will enjoy down the road.

 

[Faizal]

I don't get the pay $50 upfront for online and then buy used games all year ideology. I don't get the "I only buy used games" deal either... Do you guys want game developers to go out of business? Do you have some special fondness for EB where you would rather support them then the people that actaully make the games?

Then there is the old counter "make better games HARHAR" uh... why are you buying shitty games in the 1st place?

I mean if that is your attitude why not just buy the console and pirate your games?

The "pay $50 online and buy used games" ideology have been going on for a while now and I don't think it has driven any game companies out of business. In fact most of them are still quite profitable.

 

[Faizal]

This shiznit has been going on for years with PC gaming. I like this idea because it guarantees the copy of the game I bought hasn't been gutted and resold as new.

About time console gaming starts getting with the times of what PC gaming has had in place for years.

Stop being whiney bitches over this issue. Don't buy piece of shit games that are used just to have them in your ever growing collection of games you don't play. I don't buy many games anymore, but I like to see developers of games I enjoy get their monies, so they can make more games I will enjoy down the road.

I don't buy used games that are shitty. I don't have that much cash to waste. Why do you think that people only shitty used games? Maybe some of us have limited budgets and don't have to play new games as they come out and would rather wait to buy them used?

And how will this work with game rentals though? I don't think anyone has answered that question in this thread yet.

Anyway it just sucks that choices are being taken away from us game consumers year after year. Most games are already non-refundable after you buy them. Now by taking away cheap rentals there is almost no safeguard left against buying a shitty game.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Nope, because according to the patent when a game is played on a system a unique "hash" is written to the disc based upon a unique identifier on each console. So whether you went online or not the hash is written.

Sucks if your console ever breaks. Could luck getting hold of customer support via phone on "free" service. Im sure they're gonna hire lots of help.

QUOTE]

The patent says that but I don't believe the Blu-Ray discs will be writeable in any form so there's no way to flag a disc that it has already been used before. The only way you'll get this to work on the PS3 is to have an online connection and a database on the server side that keeps track of it.

Now if they simply tie it to a GamerTag or something of the sort, I can see people generating gamertags just for the game and packaging it with it to get around the fee. Not the best solution but it most certainly would bypass it.

 

[Mojovonio]

I really hope Sony doesn't implement this.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I don't buy used games that are shitty. I don't have that much cash to waste. Why do you think that people only shitty used games? Maybe some of us have limited budgets and don't have to play new games as they come out and would rather wait to buy them used?

And how will this work with game rentals though? I don't think anyone has answered that question in this thread yet.

Anyway it just sucks that choices are being taken away from us game consumers year after year. Most games are already non-refundable after you buy them. Now by taking away cheap rentals there is almost no safeguard left against buying a shitty game.

???

I don't see how paying to activate the online portion of a 2nd hand game affects your safeguards of buying shitty games, but whatever. :lol

oh and rentals have been discussed many times over. They could very simply sell blockbuster rental copies that allow free online play. AFAIK Blockbuster already has to pay an increased price for rental copies of movies, so why can they rent retail copies of games?

 

[Mrbob]

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see cheaper games too, but video game revenue can't double dip like the movie revenue can. Movie studios make money off of box office tickets, and then DVD sales on top of that. Perhaps we'll see cheaper games down the line if game studios can figure out a way to double dip like movie studios.

 

[meltpotato]

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see cheaper games too, but video game revenue can't double dip like the movie revenue can. Movie studios make money off of box office tickets, and then DVD sales on top of that. Perhaps we'll see cheaper games down the line if game studios can figure out a way to double dip like movie studios.

they have. microrapements, charging for their online, etc. it, oddly enough, raises the prices of the games. who woulda though. people saying prices will go down need to come on over to reality

 

[Flo_Evans]

well long ago in a galaxy far away there used to be arcades. :lol

the problem is 40 hour RPGs don't lend themselves well to arcades.

kind of an interesting side track: will having master quality copis of movies on HD-DVD and bluray kill movie theaters? I went to the show the other week with my girl and spent $40 after all was said and done on tickets, soda and candy! I could of bought 2 dvds with that and been able to make out on the comfort of my couch.

 

[Pope Benedict XVI]

You know what Sony should really do?

They should sponsor some high-price lobby groups to try and eliminate rights of first sale, fair use, transferral of ownership, and other rights.

They should try to get an Electronic Levy in place that comes out of everyones tax dollars to offset anything that might have had a negative impact on their god-given right to make profit.

I'm trying to avoid the industry mafia ban-hammer here, but some of you guys make me sick with your PUBLISHERS DESERVE MORE MONEY crap.

Are you sure you're not confusing the ideas contained in the stickied entitlements thread, with the idea in the first post of this thread? As I understand it, in the latter system you have full ownership of your game and are free to give/sell it to anyone, just as you please. The only thing you cannot transfer is the online service. Just like i can sell/give my PC to anyone i like, but my broadband service isn't transferable with it.

I still don't like the idea, and i hope sony doesn't go ahead with it, but all the same i think it's important to be clear on what the issues are.

 

[HocusPocus]

If any of this is even remotely true then Microsoft's model is infintely better. It's less complicated, and easier to understand.

 

[Mrbob]

kind of an interesting side track: will having master quality copis of movies on HD-DVD and bluray kill movie theaters? I went to the show the other week with my girl and spent $40 after all was said and done on tickets, soda and candy! I could of bought 2 dvds with that and been able to make out on the comfort of my couch.

Yeah with the boost in big screen tv sales this has already started. Once HD movies hit mainstream, theaters are going to need new ways to get people in. Like start making all theaters 3D imax's. I don't go to movie theaters anymore unless it is one of those massive ultrascreen theaters. Otherwise I can get a better experience at home.

 

[RuGalz]

If any of this is even remotely true then Microsoft's model is infintely better. It's less complicated, and easier to understand.

MS has an economy model in place that deals with 2nd hand market?

 

[jarrod]

MS has an economy model in place that deals with 2nd hand market?

Yeah... they don't rape it.

 

[RuGalz]

Yeah... they don't rape it.

This rumor has zero effect on me as consumer, heck I may gain from it by registering my new games and get free reward points to buy new songs for SingStar. I've got nothing to lose as a consumer. As developer, I'm glad I'm seeing some other forms of money return as an alternative to plastering all games with in-game ads while Sony takes all the blame. I don't have anything to lose there either. Glad I'm not the one getting raped.

 

[Maridia]

I can't name a single used books store, certainly not one that is a major retail chain. As for libraries...well I've never really used a public one, so I have no idea as to how popular they actually are. I'd appreciate it if you could provide some kind of link with more info.

Holy shit. I can't breathe.

 

[Dunpeal]

So here's the thing, if this was to be real, then Sony would be paying the online structure with game sales right? That means that somewhere in the price you pay for a game, you are paying for the online portion right?

So now....how much does a Ps3 costs really? Do we know prices?

 

[Zaptruder]

MS has an economy model in place that deals with 2nd hand market?

Nope, but it does a flat charge for online play, regardless of if you buy first or second hand!

 

[HocusPocus]

Is Sony including the head set for free with their system out of the box? Just curious.

 

[dirtmonkey37]

so basically defeat the purpose of having used games in stores because the sum of money that you'll be playing to get all the game's functionality will be the same as buying it new.



Gamestop am angry....

 

[Zaptruder]

Is Sony including the head set for free with their system out of the box? Just curious.

Is it really a good plan to have by default all the idiots in the world speaking online?

... that means by default, you WILL have 12 year olds making racist slurs in every other game.

 

[Mmmkay]

Nope, because according to the patent when a game is played on a system a unique "hash" is written to the disc based upon a unique identifier on each console. So whether you went online or not the hash is written.

Wrong patent, that's the old one. The current one we're discussing no longer talks about writing information back onto the disc.