AceBandage
Banned
Norml said:I don't agree, and it can be both.
from the Move thread
Yes yes.
We've all seen the comparison of a person that doesn't know how to use a Wiimote acting stupid to the professional using Move.
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*Shock and AWE* Sony Says Move is NOT Wii on PS3
- Thread starter Baki
- Start date
Yes yes.
We've all seen the comparison of a person that doesn't know how to use a Wiimote acting stupid to the professional using Move.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
Norml said:I don't agree, and it can be both.
from the Move thread
The Wii guy isn't even pointing the controller on the screen. :|
Eteric Rice
Member
Flying_Phoenix said:
He seems to be waving it in circles, rather than swinging it. :lol
Flying_Phoenix said:
Yeah, why can't this thing that's not designed to do absolute positioning in 3-D space do absolute positioning in 3-D space?
Edit:
Move is "better" tech for Motion controls augmented greatly by the camera giving an absolute position in 3-D space. There is significant question whether it's better or even as good at pointing. (We'll see when it comes out.) Regardless, the games on PS3 are not going to be substantially different than what's possible on Wii outside of extensive use of the camera and absolute 3-D positioning. As said before, I'm hopeful that this will encourage more companies to put actual effort into Wii games since they can be cross-platform easier with the PS3's Move, now. We'll see how that turns out, though.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Nobody ever mentions that the Move controller guy actually isn't playing when he's dipsy doodling. He's just showing the movement.
I couldn't give less of a fuck how my character moves between serves as long as he responds properly when I need him to. And i've never had a problem with WSR. Again, all this measuring of 10ths of a degree amounts to is "my dad can beat up your dad" posturing.
I couldn't give less of a fuck how my character moves between serves as long as he responds properly when I need him to. And i've never had a problem with WSR. Again, all this measuring of 10ths of a degree amounts to is "my dad can beat up your dad" posturing.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
wii offers 'absolute' 2d positioning (in the coordinate system of the beacon bar) and z-axis movement (2-beacon depth estimate). unless you mean GPS, move does very similar absolute positioning - it's a camera tracking a beacon.mr_nothin said:
not sure what you think move does, but it does not do a depth buffer - the equpment to depth-scan a scene (depth camera) costs tens of thousands today.
ps: i'm apparently of the rare GAF minority that thinks that the peripheral is a welcome addition to the ps3. i just hope sony don't screw up the implementation.
paranoidfortean
Member
Oh man I can't wait to do headshotz on people
AceBandage
Banned
Norml said:
It is 1:1 in the sense that when you're using it like you would a paddle (IE. not like a drunk beer pong player) is swings properly.
Also, fun is not an absolute...
DeaconKnowledge
Member
mr_nothin said:
Did I say it didn't?
What that post is is two gifs: one of WSR where the Wiimote is locked purposely, and the Move demo where the player is purposely demonstrating the range of motion.
Why not compare the the Move gif with this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK-AAUaG0i0
Once you've done that, can you tell me which is more "fun"? Because i'm totally dying to know.
I dont think there's a argument about "fun". It's about what the MOVE can do that WiiM+ cant do.DeaconKnowledge said:
Even when comparing the MOVE gif to the video you've posted....doesnt that show the kind of stance that Sony's been taking? More precision means more skill needed to master the controls. Which one would take more skill to master?
AceBandage
Banned
mr_nothin said:
Err, what?
Both the Move gif and the WSR video show pretty much the exact same amount of skill needed...
DeaconKnowledge
Member
mr_nothin said:
Depends on their Midichlorian count I guess.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
DeaconKnowledge said:
Fun doesn't really have much to do with how accurate something is. Or maybe I was suppose to read this differently and should have ended up posting Iseewhatyoudidthere.jpg instead?
mr_nothin said:
mr_nothin said:
Hello my name is mr_nothin and I like to talk about tech while not having any idea of how it works.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Flying_Phoenix said:
the second one.
Version 3.0
Member
Willy105 said:
Demon's Souls 2 with 1-to-1 sword/shield controls. I'll buy it at a high price. And were I a betting man, I'd bet an even higher amount that it won't happen. :-(
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Leondexter said:
That would never happen because it's a bad idea. All that movement, learning all those strategies, i'm getting exhausted just thinking about it.
Great on paper, not so much in practice.
Norml said:I don't agree, and it can be both.
from the Move thread
If i have to chose, i would say that Wii Sports Resort is the better designed game. The point is that the paddle should not be 1:1, because it is a lot easier to play the game without it. Yeah, it would be a greater simulation with 1:1, but it also would be a lot harder to play. For example EA Grand Slam Tennis is a lot more sensitive then table-tennis in Wii Sports Resort, so its also a lot harder to play, but still not 100% 1:1 to be to hard.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
mr_nothin said:
The Wii and Playstation 3 are very similar to each other except they use slightly different technologies with their motion controllers, which results in each having slight advantages and disadvantages. That is what everybody is getting at.
This is why people give out chuckles or "WTF?" type posts to you when you say stuff that Move vs M+ is like Photoshop vs Paint where it is more like SONY Vegas vs Final Cut.
DeaconKnowledge said:
Something like this will happen one day.
Motion control gaming will have to grow much like 3D gaming before it and currently touch screen gaming (which is getting more complex believe it or not).
AceBandage
Banned
DeaconKnowledge said:
Actually, the shear physics that would be needed would be insane, in and of itself.
With no tactical feed back, it would be a programming nightmare.
That's why even Red Steel 2 still uses canned animations, even if it's a much great variety of them.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Flying_Phoenix said:
Sure it will. And i hope i'll still be interested in fighting monsters when that day comes. But even with the DICK HARDENING FUN OF THE TOTALLY NEW AND GROUNDBREAKING MOVE motion control totally isn't ready for it yet.
mr_nothin said:
You keep comparing WSR table tennis to Saggle table tennis, when the former is obviously limited on purpose. Here, go take a look at sword-fighting or frisbee http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qcDjwRynyU . I couldnt find a better demonstration-video for frisbee, but when you hold the frisbee in your hand, that´s as 1:1 as it can get. Nintendo could have applied the same 1:1-accuracy on table tennis, but most likely chose not to do so because of greater accessability.
Sony´s wiimote has its technological advantages, something that should be the case after 4 years, but you´re taking the wrong examples, which comes off quite trollish.
donny2112 said:
Hello there Donny
yep, bringing up the same point because of my following bullet points:
- Third parties, the casual and hardcore developers alike, haven´t embraced it in any signficant way
- Ammount of wii consoles and/or wii motion plus controllers in households do not concern us (or me at least) as gamers. We should be looking at the offerings and games using it, anything else like sales of hardware or particular software like sports resort or red steel 2 don´t make a difference to me is and is not something I am discussing about
- Zelda requiring it is nice, pity that metroid other M, Mario galaxy 2, Sin and Punishment, Xenoblade, and Last story, games that could use it, just won´t. From nintendo´s hardcore offerings this year, only 1 game will require it.
- All casual games, which are a ton on Wii, should require motion plus. Games like Just Dance 2 could really use the add-on. Will they use it? As far as I know, the answer is no
Take a look at this list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_MotionPlus#Supported_games
only 3 games, (that´s THREE FREAKING GAMES) require you to use the motion plus add-on and one of them is Zelda, which isn´t out yet. The other two are Wii sports resorts and Red Steel 2 and that´s it, some other games support the accesory but it´s completely optional.
With only three games requiring WM+, how do you support your argument of it turning into "the norm" or being influencial in the Wii´s life? With sales and figures?
I think we are talking about different things here. You mean to say that Wii motion plus is a succesful product based on its sales, right? I agree with you on that but to say it´s an important accesory that every gamer must own in other to efficiently make use of the console is just not true, at least not until Zelda arrives and with just 3 games requiring it, it´s far from being relevant, at all.
Saint Gregory
Member
I was in the process of logging in to post just this. I really can understand both sides of the argument but at the end of the day it's not as much a precision (or lack thereof) as it is about how and when that precision is applied. Sony has decided that having 1:1 control in 3D space is the direction they wanted to go with Move but what benefit does that serve unless the setting the game is taking place happens to be my livingroom (like EyePet). I hope at E3 they'll show some game ideas that take advantage of what differentiates Move from Wii but everything so far seems very been there done that.Metal B said:
And in regards to the OP since when has a learning curve in controls been considered a positive thing? When I read a review for a game with that it's always considered a negative.
sphinx said:
You mean like Grand Slam Tennis, Tiger Woods, and Ubisoft (e.g. Red Steel 2, Shaun White, + some casual stuff)?
Again, first question from last time, what significant games have come out since Motion+ was released that should've used Motion+ and didn't?
sphinx said:
Good. Then you won't let Red Steel 2's sales dissuade you from recognizing that as a strong third-party offering supporting it.
sphinx said:
You mean pity that those other games didn't have it shoehorned in where it didn't fit well? Are you sure you're on the side of gamers and not bullet lists?
sphinx said:
I thought you were for gamers? Why do you care if shovelware doesn't add an extra 5K to development to support Motion+? As to the actual question, there are casual games using it. Ubisoft's Racquet Sports (w/ camera) comes to mind. As for a hit game like Just Dance, Ubisoft has already put Motion+ into many of their games, so it wouldn't surprise me if Just Dance: On Broadway had it, too. Optional, though.
sphinx said:
This one is better.
sphinx said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa. To be considered supporting Motion+, it has be exclusively Motion+?
sphinx said:
Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Ghostslayer lists Motion+ support as optional. No one should buy that game without Motion+. It's WSR's 1 vs. 100 mode with ghosts. WSR requires Motion+, and so *does* Ghostslayer. That's not the point, though. The point is that optional support for a better experience shouldn't be considered a negative. Did you know that some games on the PS1 didn't force you to use analog sticks, too, even after the DualShock was released?
sphinx said:
My argument is that it is nowhere near a failure and has become part of the standard for Wii, as shown by its inclusion in Wiimotes, consoles, and extremely high penetration of WSR. Not every game uses the Nunchuk. Is the Nunchuk not "the norm" and hasn't influenced the console?
sphinx said:
Never said any such thing.
Perspective-time: Motion+ has been out 10 months. Wii has been out for 43 months. The Motion+ has had a huge impact on Wii considering it's been out for less than 25% of its lifetime. Zelda will continue that, but Motion+ doesn't become less useful just because not every game uses it. Other M doesn't even use the Nunchuk, after all.
sphinx said:
Guess it depends on your criteria for "relevant." Motion+ *is* part of the standard control options that come with Wii now. That's got to be relevant somehow.
Edit:
P.S. Thanks for responding. It can be fun to have a different perspective come and have to re-think why you think the way you do.
Version 3.0
Member
DeaconKnowledge said:
If you think so, you're being unimaginative. You're thinking that because your character has realistically mapped movement, the rest of the game has to be "just like the real world". It's a game, and would have it's own set of rules, of course.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Leondexter said:
Regardless of the feedback, the game being 1:1 would be tiring.
Version 3.0
Member
donny2112 said:
Almost no PS1 games required a Dual Shock. And almost no PS1 games that allowed you to use a Dual Shock actually provided analog control; nearly all of them just lazily mapped the on/off d-pad buttons over to the stick.
I don't know what benefit any of the "optional" M+ games get from it, but PS1 DS support was basically an illusion.
Anyway, the Wii's problem isn't M+ support, it's quality game support.
Version 3.0
Member
DeaconKnowledge said:
Fair enough. 0.25:1, then.
1:1 would destroy every skill in a game, specially in a sword-fighting game. If the sword would follow every movement, you just could waggle throw your enemy. Important in a sword-system are blocks and recovery, but with a 1:1 control the game would have to ignore the feedback (blocks) and the wight (recovery) of the sword. So its a really boring game. But on top you need to learn to actual fight with a sword, what means that the most people would suck at the game. So you take away some movement and replace it with prepare movements.Leondexter said:
This was also the reason why many people were really disappointed with the wii, they thought 1:1 would work. But as a game-designer you had to learn that it was possible, but not fun to play. With PlayStation Move many have to learn this again or for the first time.
donny2112 said:
In my own personal opinion, those aren´t examples of good, consistent, relevant support. That´s just some initial support with Ubisoft taking chances and allocating some resources to a game like Red steel 2. The Sport games are nice and will probably continue using WM+ in their yearly iterations but for me, that´s just too few games using it. (Edit=In a way that matters, aka, not optional, not gimmicky, provides a truly enhanced experience)
donny2112 said:
I have addressed this a couple of times but you either don´t want or can´t see my point. I´ll try again: The Wii is a motion control based videogame system and most games use the motion sensing ability of the controller that came with the console since launch. The wiimotion plus is an add-on that was supposed to help ALL developers, of all kinds and pedigrees, to produce better and more efficient games for the Wii. Red Steel for example was flawed because it lacked precision and tight controls, the sequel benefited a lot from WM+ and we had a better game, one that is worth our money. The same story could happen with any game that uses motion controls in any way. Yet, sequels and new IPs aren´t even considering using WM+. Why? maybe because it just requires more research or unnecesary financial investment the case is, most games are not using it and will not use it. They are dissing it, plain and simple, and (on topic) I will eat all sort of crows and hats if the same doesn´t happen with Move and Natal.
donny2112 said:
You can´t compare the number of games using the Nunchuk to the the number of games using WM+. And WM+ is a success regarding sales but it´s a failure regarding software support. The list of supported games, both in my wiki link and your link, which by the way have almost the same games listed, is just laughable. But that´s my personal opinion, we don´t have to agree on that.
donny2112 said:Perspective-time: Motion+ has been out 10 months. Wii has been out for 43 months. The Motion+ has had a huge impact on Wii considering it's been out for less than 25% of its lifetime. Zelda will continue that, but Motion+ doesn't become less useful just because not every game uses it. Other M doesn't even use the Nunchuk, after all.
Guess it depends on your criteria for "relevant." Motion+ *is* part of the standard control options that come with Wii now. That's got to be relevant somehow.
The future will tell what happens with Motion Plus and by the end of the consoles cycle, we´ll see what games use this addon properly and to what extent it influenced gamers past the first WSR/Tiger wood releases. As of now, I don´t see the relevance of it.
The curious thing is: I will own one once Zelda Wii is released..
The gifs were intended to show 1:1 control. A swing in WSR is not 1:1. It is simply a pre-determined command triggered when the controller accelerates enough. Move also has assists that take over to help guide the ball over the table, but these get less restrictive as you change the difficulty sliders. Move's 1:1 position tracking also allows the game to ramp up the interactivity by requiring you to actually aim your swing AT the ball. Again, there will probably be a difficulty slider that would make it easy as WSR to make contact.DeaconKnowledge said:
CadetMahoney
Member
golf clap.gif[Nintex] said:
AceBandage
Banned
Kilrogg said:
The White Wiimotes are still sans Motion+.
The black, blue and Pink ones all come with Motion+ however.
And I'm fairly certain it's the same world wide.
Graphics Horse
Member
blu said:
Natal isn't going to be that expensive! There was a Richard Marks video demo where he used a natal like Zcam for tracking, he even applied the buffer to the camera's view, so artificial objects got depth tested against real life ones.