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[Segata Sanshiro]

Heh, if you think American divisions are bad for censoring Japanese games, you should see Japanese versions of American games. I'm playing the English version of God of War II for the first time now and I'm utterly shocked at the gore and nudity.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Speaking of RAGECANDYBAR, the (former) translator for Pokemon posts on SomethingAwful, and he posted some interesting things in an LP recently: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3289342&userid=41407

That reminds me, how much of a say did you ever have in naming any of the Pokémon as one, if not the lead translators on the first games, anyway? Always been curious about that kind of creative input.

Didn't get to do the all caps stuff (meaning move names, poke names, places, NPCs, etc. etc.) until around Gen 3 because my NOA handler was convinced he had a better handle on things. Which is why there were howlers like Slowbro being a "Hermit Crab Pokemon" and Marill becoming a "Polkadot Pokemon." Oh, and fucking RAGECANDYBAR.

It used to drive me bananas that they'd pay me to translate, and then refuse to reason with me over issues like that.

By around Gen 3, I think my old handler was replaced, and I got a lot more input into the all caps stuff. That's why I was able to preserve the pun pair "Old Chateau" and "Old Gateau" in DPPT when people were saying stupid shit like calling the "Gateau" "Bean Paste Cake," which would've been the correct translation, but would've killed the original joke dead.

So wait, what should RAGECANDYBAR have been called?

It was originally Ikari Manju, so "Rage Dumpling" would be the correct translation, but that's too long, so Rage Bun.

Just nothing so grammatically ugly as what they'd called it in the end.

Anger Snack sounds cool, but probably too much trouble to rationalize to the paymasters.
Tantrum Brownie's right out of the question because it's too damned long.

Plus, one should never just thoughtlessly translate without thinking through the consequences.

For instance, what if the original game text were to features text like, "We use the steam from Rage Hot Springs to cook these Rage Buns"?

That text would've sounded weird with RageCandyBar, so that would involve more bending of the translation to fit the situation. And those little lies can come back to haunt you later on.

Besides, when I work, I try to keep things faithful to the original text. That was what was expected of me.

Also, just suppose they were to feature the ill-named Ragecandybar in the anime and show them being steamed. Rage (steamed) Buns will make sense, but candy bar, probably not.

With the Pokemon franchise, it's not just about the games, things like that can impact on the whole Pokeverse. One had to be vigilant.

Slowbro was a "yadokari" Pokemon.
Yadokari does directly translate to "hermit crab", but broken down into its kanji characters, one gets, "inn renter". Basically, he's "borrowing" a home.
I would've pushed for "squatter" (which also is a pun for "otter", which I assumed it to be, sort of).

Marill was a "mizutama" Pokemon.
If the Japanese word for "pattern" was added after it, then, yes, it would have had to been "polkadot". But I again broke it down to the kanji words "water" and "ball". I figured that "ball" would be the correct interpretation because of its rotund figure, so I would've gone with "aqua-ball" or "aqua-orb" pokemon. Yeah, no great shakes, but truer to the original spirit of the JP name.

...Yeah, I did a lot of agonizing to translate even two words like that.

I keep meaning to pick up the Japanese game and find out what the crap he originally said. If he talks about shorts in that then :O

Whatever the original JP text said, it went in.

Unless we were forced to change the text because it involved topics that are too raw for the E-10 rating.

But the shorts line is a direct translation.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense now. You'd think they'd have just changed it for Magikarp and left it alone for the others or translated it directly as Hop, but no, that would be sensible...

I told them that "Splash" is no substitute for "Flop" (more appropriate for a fish than "Hop"), but my NOA handler wouldn't listen. I didn't have enough clout back then, so I wasn't about to lose my job over several stupid translations foisted on me by that dumbass.

Just as I suspected, that wrong translation would come back to haunt us in subsequent games.

That's why it's so damned important to get the translation spot on from the get-go. That said, a lot of translation is subjective and situational, so "Flop" would've been kind of problematical for the pokemon that "hop" instead of "flop."

Is that the same kind of reason why the Gen III games refer to water you can surf on as "dyed a deep blue"? I dunno why, but that phrasing always bugged me.

No, that's probably just a direct translation of the JP text. That sort of thing I didn't care about, it was OK in that context with zero possibility of clashing with other text.
Besides, if I tried to change it to something literal like, "The water is deep enough to surf," some editing pinhead would've whined, "That's not what the JP text says."

Hey Doug, I'm curious about the name of Mr. Mime. What was your initial reaction when Gen 2 came and you found "Mr.Mime" can be a female?

Horrified. I remember joking with the guy responsible, "If they make sequels and they give genders to Pokemon, we're going to be hooped."
He laughed me off.
It's one of those unconsidered consequences that came back to bite our asses.

Also, about this whole "loamy" thing. That came about partly from my refusal to write down to the target audience. I didn't ever want young players to feel as if they were being patronized. (This goes back to the philosophy of putting the player in control--I wanted the players to feel as if they were respected within the game.)
I know I've used big words that little kids wouldn't recognize, but I figured kids are smart enough to pick up on them and glean their meaning from the context. I thought it'd be obvious from the context that "loamy" = "good for planting."

And, hell, if it encouraged someone to flip open a dictionary and confirm its meaning, then I've contributed a tiny bit to learning. Go me.

 

[Tellaerin]

But no one has been arguing for this. :lol

That's the impression I'm left with when I see people argue in favor of changing elements of a game that might give it a 'foreign' flavor as part of the localization process. :/

I think I'm more or less on the same page as Sqorgar when it comes to those types of changes. Back when I was a kid, if I came across a reference to something unfamiliar in a book I was reading, my curiosity would be piqued. I'd go to the library and try to find out more. Nowadays, we have information at our fingertips - if I happen to see something that piques my curiosity, it takes about five seconds to Google it or look it up on Wikipedia or what have you. Yet despite this, the underlying assumption for changes like this seems to be that the 'intended audience' (whoever they are) will be put off or confused by references to unfamiliar things in a game, rather than inspired to learn something new. So it does end up feeling like they're insulting players' intelligence/pandering to the lowest common denominator when localizations take that approach, at least to me.

It may help to identify my position on this matter more accurately to note that I've been in similarly heated arguments on GAF before where I was actually defending Persona 4's localization against the charge that it leaned too far in the opposite direction, and I know for a fact a number of the other people arguing similar points to mine in this thread feel pretty similarly about that game's localization.

Point taken.

 

[KTallguy]

Ideally, I want to have the same experience when I play that someone playing the game in its original language would - I want to laugh in the same spots, be moved by the same scenes, get the same impressions of personality from the characters, etc.

That's the point.

When you do direct translations without recognizing the context, the majority of people will not laugh at the same spots or be moved by the same scenes. The average person playing PW will not get the "fast food girl" image if the game says "she's eating ramen". Ramen is pretty rare in the United States, dare I say outside Asia... it's more of a special Asian delicacy. Where as Ramen can be the equivalent of fast food in Japan.

So either you switch the food with something like "hamburgers", which the majority of the foreign audience will recognize as "fast food", or you keep it as ramen, with a bunch of explanation as to why it's fast food in Japan for the uninitiated. Is having a mini-documentary about ramen in Japan closer to the author's intent? Will it keep the same pacing and nuance as the original?

I am generally against adding new things that weren't in the original script, in any medium. There are exceptions.

- Sometimes manga-like "gibberish" in Japanese (sound words, etc), are used repeatedly for comedic effect, and in these cases adding in small jokes will achieve a similar effect.

- Representing characters from different regions in Japan is difficult. Do you make them sound all the same? Do you add an accent? Do you add some kind of special inflection at the end of each of their sentences (Chrono Cross smh)? It's difficult to get the original intent of the work across because sometimes there is no equivalent. For example, I think Southern Accents are a poor choice for Kansai dialect. I think Frog's inflection in Chrono Trigger was a perfect fit.

Remember that localization teams typically have character bios and access to the series' writers, so they can get the original intent of the author from information unaccessible to the general audience. Nowadays, quality localizations always use these resources.

Anyway that's a lot of text. If you like Japan and can't stand to see obscure references made less obtuse for a broader audience, my suggestion is to play the game in Japanese.

Rage dumpling to Rage candy bar? It's still happening, though I admit the offenses are far less egregious than they used to be.

What's the target audience for Pokemon? I would say 6-12 year old boys, judging by the marketing and the content of the game itself. Now tell me how many 6-12 year old American/European boy knows what a "dumpling" is in the Japanese context? This kind of example is silly, the reason for the change is obvious.

Again, you are making assumptions on behalf of the players as if it were a universal constant. Phoenix Wright is somewhere between a visual novel and an adventure game, two genres most appreciated by older, more literate gamers. I don't think it is beyond the realm of imagination that they would be okay with cultural details that are not immediately obvious, especially when they can use context clues to intuit their significance.

Again, the target audience is not just older people for Phoenix Wright. The art style and wacky comedy can also serve a younger audience. The art style used in Phoenix Wright is typically thought of as for younger audiences in the West, as unfortunate as that may be.

 

[HK-47]

That's the point.

When you do direct translations without recognizing the context, the majority of people will not laugh at the same spots or be moved by the same scenes. The average person playing PW will not get the "fast food girl" image if the game says "she's eating ramen". Ramen is pretty rare in the United States, dare I say outside Asia... it's more of a special Asian delicacy. Where as Ramen can be the equivalent of fast food in Japan.

Please. Ramen might have different conotations in the West, but its a fairly recognizable product that you can probably find easily in most food stores. Ramen isnt some "special Asian delicacy." :lol :lol :lol

 

[KTallguy]

Please. Ramen might have different conotations in the West, but its a fairly recognizable product that you can probably find easily in most food stores. Ramen isnt some "special Asian delicacy." :lol :lol :lol

Do you "go out to eat ramen with your buddies" in US/EU? I'm talking about fast food ramen that you go to a restaurant and eat there, not cup ramen which you buy in a store and take home. The connotation is different.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Phoenix Wright is really an unusual case because the game is primarily meant to be off-the-wall comedy. Messing with the pacing by explaining things or having the audience need to dig up reference is probably the worst possible thing you can do for a joke.

 

[Sqorgar]

The average person playing PW will not get the "fast food girl" image if the game says "she's eating ramen". Ramen is pretty rare in the United States, dare I say outside Asia... it's more of a special Asian delicacy. Where as Ramen can be the equivalent of fast food in Japan.

In Japan, ramen can range from cup noodle all the way up to an expensive delicacy. Usually, the difference in quality is not described by the food itself, but by the form it is delivered in, be it just-add-water, a ramen cart, or an actual ramen shop. I think that connotation comes across just fine without having to change ramen into something else.

Also, ramen is about as foreign as teriyaki at this point. My local supermarket has an entire isle dedicated to it, and even stuff like soba and udon noodles.

So either you switch the food with something like "hamburgers", which the majority of the foreign audience will recognize as "fast food", or you keep it as ramen, with a bunch of explanation as to why it's fast food in Japan for the uninitiated.

But sometimes, it's okay to leave an answer blank. People don't have to grokk every single god damned detail every single time. It's okay to have cultural flavor that may be lost on the player, yet doesn't greatly impact things. If the ramen were a major plot point (like it is in AA4), then explain it. Otherwise, players will happily ignore it. I'm willing to believe that the change to hamburger was more an attempt to place the series in its strange America than an attempt to hide cultural differences or adapt them to other tastes.

For example, I think Southern Accents are a poor choice for Kansai dialect.

My biggest pet peeve when it comes to translations. It's not just that it doesn't make sense, it's that apparently these translators have never been to the South and think we all talk like characters from Hee-Haw.

What's the target audience for Pokemon? I would say 6-12 year old boys, judging by the marketing and the content of the game itself. Now tell me how many 6-12 year old American/European boy knows what a "dumpling" is in the Japanese context? This kind of example is silly, the reason for the change is obvious.

But it doesn't matter whether it is a dumpling or a candy bar. Do you have any idea how much cultural identity a six year old child lacks already? A dumpling is one more thing they can ask their parents about, just like why electricity kicks water's ass.

Again, the target audience is not just older people for Phoenix Wright. The art style and wacky comedy can also serve a younger audience. The art style used in Phoenix Wright is typically thought of as for younger audiences in the West, as unfortunate as that may be.

So, you are suggesting a game in which you deal with people who commit cold blooded, grisly murder, with EXTENSIVE reading requirements is something that could serve a younger audience? Just the fact that it has fifteen hours of pure reading, with puzzles based directly on reading comprehension, is enough to assume that the audience is going to be able to handle simple things like context clues.

Phoenix Wright is really an unusual case because the game is primarily meant to be off-the-wall comedy. Messing with the pacing by explaining things or having the audience need to dig up reference is probably the worst possible thing you can do for a joke.

Having played all five Ace Attorney games and being something of a professional comedic game writer myself, I can't think of any moments in the games that are dependent on the kind of pacing that you are suggesting. The games are largely one liners, with much of the mirthful atmosphere coming from the character of the cast and situations. These things would not be diminished or changed via the inclusion of minor cultural references (explained or otherwise). Something that would require that sort of comedic timing would be something that was voice acted or something structurally comedic, like a farce.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Having played all five Ace Attorney games and being something of a professional comedic game writer myself, I can't think of any moments in the games that are dependent on the kind of pacing that you are suggesting. The games are largely one liners, with much of the mirthful atmosphere coming from the character of the cast and situations. These things would not be diminished or changed via the inclusion of minor cultural references (explained or otherwise). Something that would require that sort of comedic timing would be something that was voice acted or something structurally comedic, like a farce.

If you have to look something up in a joke, it's not funny anymore. If you really think it's okay for someone to have to whip out an encyclopedia to "get" a one-liner, then you're not much of a comedy writer.

edit: I just read the webcomic in the blog link you have in your profile. You're not much of a comedy writer.

 

[mr_chun]

<----------------- Have a read of the link in my tag for my views on the issue.

Localisations FTW.

Oh my god, there's so much win in that post. That basically sums up every feeling that I have about translations. Even feelings I didn't know that I had. :lol

 

[Tellaerin]

That's the point.

When you do direct translations without recognizing the context, the majority of people will not laugh at the same spots or be moved by the same scenes. The average person playing PW will not get the "fast food girl" image if the game says "she's eating ramen". Ramen is pretty rare in the United States, dare I say outside Asia... it's more of a special Asian delicacy. Where as Ramen can be the equivalent of fast food in Japan.

What part of the US do you live in? I live in New Jersey, and I see ramen at the supermarket, there's a little hole-in-the-wall sushi bar at a strip mall near me that has ramen on the menu (along with a Chinese take-out place, a Subway, and a Boston Market)... I'd hardly call it a 'special Asian delicacy'.

So either you switch the food with something like "hamburgers", which the majority of the foreign audience will recognize as "fast food", or you keep it as ramen, with a bunch of explanation as to why it's fast food in Japan for the uninitiated. Is having a mini-documentary about ramen in Japan closer to the author's intent? Will it keep the same pacing and nuance as the original?

Or you can trust in your audience's ability to draw simple inferences from context. 'Wow, I guess in Japan, people go out and eat ramen like we go out for pizza!' Achievement Unlocked: Learned something about a foreign culture!

I am generally against adding new things that weren't in the original script, in any medium. There are exceptions.

- Sometimes manga-like "gibberish" in Japanese (sound words, etc), are used repeatedly for comedic effect, and in these cases adding in small jokes will achieve a similar effect.

- Representing characters from different regions in Japan is difficult. Do you make them sound all the same? Do you add an accent? Do you add some kind of special inflection at the end of each of their sentences (Chrono Cross smh)? It's difficult to get the original intent of the work across because sometimes there is no equivalent. For example, I think Southern Accents are a poor choice for Kansai dialect. I think Frog's inflection in Chrono Trigger was a perfect fit.

Finding workable equivalents for regional accents in Japanese might be difficult, but I think that the results are usually worth the extra effort.

Remember that localization teams typically have character bios and access to the series' writers, so they can get the original intent of the author from information unaccessible to the general audience. Nowadays, quality localizations always use these resources.

I'll gladly cede that point. Translations have definitely improved since the 8- and 16-bit days, and I imagine being able to get one of the original writers to weigh in on something that's ambiguous in translation has contributed a lot to that.

Anyway that's a lot of text. If you like Japan and can't stand to see obscure references made less obtuse for a broader audience, my suggestion is to play the game in Japanese.

It's not just Japan. I'd prefer to see any game created by a developer in a foreign country (which for me is anyplace outside the US) treated like that in localization. The issue just seems to arise more frequently with Japanese games than, say, European ones.

 

[Sqorgar]

If you have to look something up in a joke, it's not funny anymore. If you really think it's okay for someone to have to whip out an encyclopedia to "get" a one-liner, then you're not much of a comedy writer.

edit: I just read the webcomic in the blog link you have in your profile. You're not much of a comedy writer.

That is... incredibly petty. Look, I'm happy to have a debate, but I won't trade insults.

 

[KTallguy]

It's okay to have cultural flavor that may be lost on the player, yet doesn't greatly impact things. If the ramen were a major plot point (like it is in AA4), then explain it. Otherwise, players will happily ignore it. I'm willing to believe that the change to hamburger was more an attempt to place the series in its strange America than an attempt to hide cultural differences or adapt them to other tastes.

It depends on if her being a "Fast Food Girl" is a running joke or not... or if it's an integral part of her personality, really. If it's an idea that's important to the character then it should be made clear to the audience. When you say "Ramen" to someone, does it mean "Fast Food"? If not, and the point is important, it should be changed.

As for the place setting of the title, I guess the point is here, how much stock do the creators put into "this is a game set in Japan"? For Sega's Yakuza, changing all of the Japanese shops to Hamburgers would ruin the sense of place that the game has. Since the game mostly takes place in a courtroom, it might matter less. I really don't know, as I haven't played the PW series that much.

My biggest pet peeve when it comes to translations. It's not just that it doesn't make sense, it's that apparently these translators have never been to the South and think we all talk like characters from Hee-Haw.

Yep. Kansai dialect has tons of different versions too, which is lost in translation.

But it doesn't matter whether it is a dumpling or a candy bar. Do you have any idea how much cultural identity a six year old child lacks already? A dumpling is one more thing they can ask their parents about, just like why electricity kicks water's ass.

In this case, it's more of a realization that "this is an edible item for my pokemon that causes them to get angry". If it's a dumpling, they may not know it's edible at first glance, because it's not as ubiquitous as Japan. In a game, you need an understanding of what items do what, so the name being understandable trumps the need "dumpling", in my mind. I liked the "Tantrum Brownie" example though, a perfect fit! :lol ... too bad it's too long
Is it the intent of the creator for the kid to go ask their parents about "dumpling"? Probably not.

So, you are suggesting a game in which you deal with people who commit cold blooded, grisly murder, with EXTENSIVE reading requirements is something that could serve a younger audience?

I just looked up and saw that it's a Teen game. So 13 and up. I guess that's young enough. I guess it's a question of where you draw the line. I think that there's no sweeping rule, and it should be a case by case basis, but games shouldn't be documentaries and have asides explaining the cultural relevance of takoyaki in Osaka if the point of the scene is that they are having a quick bite to eat.

Or you can trust in your audience's ability to draw simple inferences from context. 'Wow, I guess in Japan, people go out and eat ramen like we go out for pizza!' Achievement Unlocked: Learned something about a foreign culture!

In the Ramen case, this could be true, but in many many cases it can be difficult to infer context without cultural notes, which ruins the flow.

Edit:

About ramen, "Sushi" is pretty well known in the US, but going to ramen shops is not common. I'm from California and obviously we have tons of this stuff, but there are a bunch of states in the middle of the US that don't have that kind of exposure. And don't they call it "cup noodle" in the states? I actually think that translating it as "let's go have some noodles", ala Ghostbusters, could work, but I don't know if it will solve either problem satisfactorily.

 

[jman2050]

Here's the fundamental point: We want our entertainment, games, books, movies or otherwise, to make sense. Not after performing ancillary research when we come across concepts that may or may not pique our curiosity, but immediately. Designing a narrative to be easily understood and relatable is not automatically "pandering" or "appeasing the lowest common denominator" and I constantly get annoyed when elitist snobs decide that those filthy uncultured masses don't deserve to be entertained because they don't have the initiative to actively seek out information beyond what they have chosen to digest. That's a horrible attitude and one I won't associate myself with willingly.

 

[Zoe]

And don't they call it "cup noodle" in the states?

I've never heard it called that.

 

[Zoe]

Speaking of RAGECANDYBAR, the (former) translator for Pokemon posts on SomethingAwful, and he posted some interesting things in an LP recently: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3289342&userid=41407

This is a great find. Thank you!

 

[Pureauthor]

I've never heard it called that.

It gets called that far more often than 'ramen' here in Singapore.

 

[Sqorgar]

In this case, it's more of a realization that "this is an edible item for my pokemon that causes them to get angry". If it's a dumpling, they may not know it's edible at first glance, because it's not as ubiquitous as Japan. In a game, you need an understanding of what items do what, so the name being understandable trumps the need "dumpling", in my mind. I liked the "Tantrum Brownie" example though, a perfect fit! :lol ... too bad it's too long
Is it the intent of the creator for the kid to go ask their parents about "dumpling"? Probably not.

My four year old eats chicken 'n dumplings. It's not like the word, even as it pertains to food, is completely foreign to children. But if worse comes to worse, the parents are available. My daughter has put thirty hours into Pokemon Pearl and she can't even read yet, so I think kids are perfectly okay with getting some assistance when needed.

... but games shouldn't be documentaries ..

Foreign games are foreign. They aren't being made to educate us on Japanese society. They are a product of it. And if we want to enjoy them, I don't think it is an absurd request that they not be whitewashed.

Here's the fundamental point: We want our entertainment, games, books, movies or otherwise, to make sense.Not after performing ancillary research when we come across concepts that may or may not pique our curiosity, but immediately. Designing a narrative to be easily understood and relatable is not automatically "pandering" or "appeasing the lowest common denominator" and I constantly get annoyed when elitist snobs decide that those filthy uncultured masses don't deserve to be entertained because they don't have the initiative to actively seek out information beyond what they have chosen to digest. That's a horrible attitude and one I won't associate myself with willingly.

But I don't think people are stupid. You do. I think they are capable of understanding and tolerating a great deal more than they are being given. I think EVERYBODY benefits from more nuanced and detailed localization, not just us elitists.

You seem to think that entertainment must be effortless or it isn't entertainment. And yet if you look at popular entertainment (going by one of the threads in the off topic forum), I'd be surprised if you understood even your favorite tv shows fully.

How many references in the Simpsons do you get? How many jokes in Arrested Development fly over your head on first viewing? How much did you know about the ins and outs of running a British inn did you know before watching Fawlty Towers? How much did you know about the English Regency before seeing Black Adder the Third? Is Yes, Minister only funny to people with inside knowledge of the British political system? Does P. G. Wodehouse suddenly stop being funny because your knowledge of turn of the century America is not complete? Father Ted is funny, and I'm not Catholic or Irish. And how many xkcd comics does anybody really understand?

These are all things that I've watched and enjoyed greatly, and I fully admit that I was both entertained and educated by them. One of the great thing about the British comedies especially is that because they didn't need to be translated, they were not adapted. I could bask in their lovely complexities without someone telling me I couldn't. And yet when it comes to Japanese games, I'm told that I can't handle something so simple and benign as a dumpling.

I'm not stupid. I don't think you are either. If you can handle the Simpsons, I think you can manage ramen.

EDIT: Cup Noodle is a brand, like Band-Aid. Most people I know just called it instant ramen or ramen noodles.

 

[john tv]

My one zenny: Don't get so hung up on semantics. I think someone said this already, but it merits repeating: Translation is an art, not a science. Words to live by: Respect and understand the creators' vision, know your audience, and hire people who actually know how to write.

 

[FLEABttn]

And don't they call it "cup noodle" in the states?

Only when referring to this:

http://www.fleabttn.com/gaf/Cup_o_noodles.jpg

But even though that's its actual name, I've only heard it referred to as "Cup O' Noodles" or "Cup of Noodles".

 

[Nairume]

My one zenny: Don't get so hung up on semantics. I think someone said this already, but it merits repeating: Translation is an art, not a science. Words to live by: Respect and understand the creators' vision, know your audience, and hire people who actually know how to write.

The one person I was hoping would post in here the most just said everything that needed to be said in the best way possible, true to form

Now we just need Vic Ireland to chip in and this thread can safely be retired.

 

[Zoe]

Now we just need Vic Ireland to chip in and this thread can safely be retired.

That would add another 5 pages to the thread.

 

[KTallguy]

And yet when it comes to Japanese games, I'm told that I can't handle something so simple and benign as a dumpling.

You can handle it, but maybe the intended audience can't without confusion.
All I'm saying is that. It's about the expectations of the intended audience.

I think there was a cutscene from Dirge of Cerberus (??) that was changed because it had characters placing the tips of both hands together above their head, arms extended. This means "OK" in Japan. The gestures of the scene were completely changed for the US/EU release. Do you think it would be better to keep that, but put a disclaimer on the bottom of the screen explaining the gesture?

You don't have to get every reference, but ones that are important need to be accessible to the audience. I don't know much about English history, so Black Adder is kind of incomprehensible to me, although I think the way the characters talk is amusing.

Another problem is that with games, some information is vital to progression. With movies or TV shows, you just hit play. Stuff you don't understand can't really get in the way of you finishing the work. In games, it's definitely possible for a poor localization to confuse the player.

EDIT: Cup Noodle is a brand, like Band-Aid. Most people I know just called it instant ramen or ramen noodles.

Funny that you say Band-Aid as a brand, but what do you call non Band-Aid branded ... band-aids? :lol

I hear "cup noodle", "ramen", "instant noodle", "instant ramen".

My one zenny: Don't get so hung up on semantics. I think someone said this already, but it merits repeating: Translation is an art, not a science. Words to live by: Respect and understand the creators' vision, know your audience, and hire people who actually know how to write.

Yep. Judgement of case by case situations with people who are good writers, knowledgeable about both cultures, and have experience in translation is the ideal situation. Luckily there are still a few talented guys left.

 

[Tellaerin]

Here's the fundamental point: We want our entertainment, games, books, movies or otherwise, to make sense. Not after performing ancillary research when we come across concepts that may or may not pique our curiosity, but immediately. Designing a narrative to be easily understood and relatable is not automatically "pandering" or "appeasing the lowest common denominator" and I constantly get annoyed when elitist snobs decide that those filthy uncultured masses don't deserve to be entertained because they don't have the initiative to actively seek out information beyond what they have chosen to digest. That's a horrible attitude and one I won't associate myself with willingly.

And I get annoyed when I hear people attempt to justify their lack of curiosity and disinterest in learning anything new with some lame bullshit about 'what they have chosen to digest'. If someone demands that games be rewritten to remove references to anything that might be unfamiliar for fear that they might have to stop and think about what they're reading every so often, what they've chosen is to be intellectually lazy. (Especially when quite a bit can be inferred from context and the game would still 'make sense', even if you didn't perform time-consuming 'ancillary research' like Googling the occasional unfamiliar word or phrase.) And that's their prerogative, but it's hardly 'elitism' to say that I respect someone who approaches unfamiliar things with curiosity and interest a helluva lot more than one who wants to have everything spoonfed to them and can't find anything 'relatable' unless they can instantly identify it as something from their own culture.

EDIT: That reply was more belligerent than I would have liked, but you really did jump down my throat in that post, and I ended up responding in kind.

 

[Sqorgar]

It's about the expectations of the intended audience.

And THAT is precisely my point.

I think there was a cutscene from Dirge of Cerberus (??) that was changed because it had characters placing the tips of both hands together above their head, arms extended. This means "OK" in Japan. The gestures of the scene were completely changed for the US/EU release. Do you think it would be better to keep that, but put a disclaimer on the bottom of the screen explaining the gesture?

I couldn't say without seeing the scene in question.

Another problem is that with games, some information is vital to progression. With movies or TV shows, you just hit play. Stuff you don't understand can't really get in the way of you finishing the work. In games, it's definitely possible for a poor localization to confuse the player.

But that's the case in native language games as well. Having written some dialogue trees, it was really important to get specific information across. However, sometimes, that information wouldn't be obvious or the player would mistake a joke as a clue and I'd have to rethink how I wrote the dialogue. It's certainly not a problem faced only by translators.

I think that, in general, that information isn't particularly common and these days, most games have some sort of mechanism for explicitly showing those things (like minimaps with glowing quest dots on them, quest journals, invisible walls, cutscenes, and so on). The amount of data absolutely required to get through a game depends largely on the type of game it is, with adventure games probably being the most obtuse, but I think that most situations, a little common sense will get you far. I've played through many games I didn't understand fully. In fact, my favorite game of all time was gotten through largely based on the fact that it had a huge amount of borrowed words in katakana.

I do remember a case in Ganbare Goemon 5 for the PSX where you had to jump up and down in front of a particular tombstone five times. Not knowing much Japanese at the time, I was hopelessly stuck (and gameFAQs wasn't the powerhouse that it is today). I really only lucked into the solution because I knew the kanji for numbers and took an educated guess. That kind of "puzzle" seems to exist just to screw over importers. The rest of the game I played through easily without translating another line of dialogue.

Visual novels, adventure games, some RPGs - these require varying amounts of data that absolutely must be communicated to the player at all cost. Only in very rare cases do I think that cultural flavor would impede that.

Funny that you say Band-Aid as a brand, but what do you call non Band-Aid branded ... band-aids? :lol

I think the technical term is adhesive bandages.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I couldn't say without seeing the scene in question.

What.

 

[Foxtastical]

Man, when a person really wants to believe something they will buckle and turn around every corner.

 

[jman2050]

But I don't think people are stupid. You do. I think they are capable of understanding and tolerating a great deal more than they are being given. I think EVERYBODY benefits from more nuanced and detailed localization, not just us elitists.

People aren't stupid for not fluently understanding another culture. They shouldn't be expected to by default honestly.

You seem to think that entertainment must be effortless or it isn't entertainment. And yet if you look at popular entertainment (going by one of the threads in the off topic forum), I'd be surprised if you understood even your favorite tv shows fully.

I probably don't

How many references in the Simpsons do you get? How many jokes in Arrested Development fly over your head on first viewing? How much did you know about the ins and outs of running a British inn did you know before watching Fawlty Towers? How much did you know about the English Regency before seeing Black Adder the Third? Is Yes, Minister only funny to people with inside knowledge of the British political system? Does P. G. Wodehouse suddenly stop being funny because your knowledge of turn of the century America is not complete? Father Ted is funny, and I'm not Catholic or Irish. And how many xkcd comics does anybody really understand?

These are all things that I've watched and enjoyed greatly, and I fully admit that I was both entertained and educated by them. One of the great thing about the British comedies especially is that because they didn't need to be translated, they were not adapted. I could bask in their lovely complexities without someone telling me I couldn't. And yet when it comes to Japanese games, I'm told that I can't handle something so simple and benign as a dumpling.

See, you're just demonstrating why localization of any sort is not an exact science. You could talk about British comedies and the like but the fact of the matter is that they utilize humor based on a culture that's much more similar to ours than any eastern culture. It's all about context. Even considering this, there's a reason that we, say, got a different American version of The Office or a different American version of Ugly Betty, to state two examples.

I'm not stupid. I don't think you are either. If you can handle the Simpsons, I think you can manage ramen.

Not if the context of a comedic or dramatic situation is established based on a cultural assumption. Which is why the ramen->hamburger change was made.

And I get annoyed when I hear people attempt to justify their lack of curiosity and disinterest in learning anything new with some lame bullshit about 'what they have chosen to digest'. If someone demands that games be rewritten to remove references to anything that might be unfamiliar for fear that they might have to stop and think about what they're reading every so often, what they've chosen is to be intellectually lazy. (Especially when quite a bit can be inferred from context and the game would still 'make sense', even if you didn't perform time-consuming 'ancillary research' like Googling the occasional unfamiliar word or phrase.) And that's their prerogative, but it's hardly 'elitism' to say that I respect someone who approaches unfamiliar things with curiosity and interest a helluva lot more than one who wants to have everything spoonfed to them and can't find anything 'relatable' unless they can instantly identify it as something from their own culture.

It isn't about being "intellectually lazy" or not having respect for people who don't choose to digest every ounce of information that comes their way, it's about understanding their point of view. Is it such a horrible thing that when faced with something that doesn't make sense to them, most people would rather go find something else that does make sense? And believe me, I believe in keeping the spirit of the original work when localizing and doing stupid shit like outright changing locations and settings when the setting is integral to the work at large doesn't help anything. And it's not like there aren't cultural aspects that could be inferred by context, and a good localization knows when to change things and when not to. But a great deal of people take things too far, and complain about even the smallest of changes no matter the justification. The whole ramen->hamburger thing is a microcosm of this phenomenon. Could one possibly infer from context that ramen is supposed to be fast food? Maybe, and I'm sure some people could spot that particular bit of humor. Thing is, changing it to hamburger basically makes that concern a null point without messing up the spirit of the original in any way. How could any reasonable person complain about something like that?

EDIT: That reply was more belligerent than I would have liked, but you really did jump down my throat in that post, and I ended up responding in kind.

I wasn't talking to you specifically.

 

[Sqorgar]

What.

It could go either way. It could be a gesture that is completely foreign with no context clues as to what it meant, or it could've been something that made sense, just seemed a little "weird". Or it could've been something that was considered an insult in Portuguese. Without seeing the original scene, I couldn't say whether the gesture needed to be changed or whether it is better off changed or whether it didn't need to be changed at all. Whatever the case, I don't know that a disclaimer would be an appropriate substitute, but then I don't know that a disclaimer was really necessary in the first place.

It's like the batz-maru thing. In Western cultures, X marks the spot and O has become associated with canceling. In Japan, however, O is used to indicate a correct answer while the X is wrong/cancel. In most situations, this discrepancy doesn't require a change or explanation. But there are certain situations where it can lead to major confusion (one example is how the X and O button functions are switched while localizing Japanese games).

 

[Aokage]

My one zenny: Don't get so hung up on semantics. I think someone said this already, but it merits repeating: Translation is an art, not a science. Words to live by: Respect and understand the creators' vision, know your audience, and hire people who actually know how to write.

I was going to come in here and pontificate, but now I think I'll just QFT!

 

[Fugu]

I don't understand why it's necessary that the reader get all of the jokes that a Japanese person would have gotten. I can see why it would be necessary to change the nouns to accomplish this but then what's the point in translating in the first place? Why not make up a completely new script that accomplishes the same objectives? Why shouldn't a Japanese game make references to Japanese culture?

 

[Aeana]

I don't understand why it's necessary that the reader get all of the jokes that a Japanese person would have gotten. I can see why it would be necessary to change the nouns to accomplish this but then what's the point in translating in the first place? Why not make up a completely new script that accomplishes the same objectives? Why shouldn't a Japanese game make references to Japanese culture?

Do you speak more than one language? In fact, this is a question for everyone with your same argument. I ask this because it sounds like you don't grasp the differences between languages, seemingly thinking everything is directly translatable.

 

[KTallguy]

I don't understand why it's necessary that the reader get all of the jokes that a Japanese person would have gotten.

So if the game is trying to be funny in Japanese, and it fails to be funny in English, that's OK?
If the original intent of the author to make the audience laugh, you've failed if the localized version isn't amusing.

"Be excellent to one another" is kind of worthless if you don't define what being excellent entails.

I think "art, not a science" is a key point. You can't make blanket statements for all localizations, and every situation is different.

 

[Sqorgar]

I was going to come in here and pontificate, but now I think I'll just QFT!

But that's kind of vague advice, isn't it? I mean, is anyone here saying not to hire someone who can write? Or to ignore your audience? Or to not respect and understand the creators' vision? I'm pretty sure everybody on all sides of the issue agree that localizations should be handled competently with respect and integrity. "Be excellent to one another" is kind of worthless if you don't define what being excellent entails.

I think "art, not a science" is a key point. You can't make blanket statements for all localizations, and every situation is different.

"art, not a science" is a cop out. It's saying that you can do whatever the hell you want because you are not limited by rules. But art is a science. Or rather, there is science in art. Perspective, color theory, golden rectangle, anatomy, yada yada yada. There's nothing in the history of mankind that exists purely as emotion without rules and structure to give it form. You might not be able to make blanket statements, but you can make qualified ones.

 

[Fugu]

Do you speak more than one language? In fact, this is a question for everyone with your same argument. I ask this because it sounds like you don't grasp the differences between languages, seemingly thinking everything is directly translatable.

I speak three languages. One of them is Japanese. It is certainly possible to translate a statement non-literally while keeping the same basic meaning. I'm not saying that every word has to be translated directly because that doesn't make sense; I'm saying that there's a difference between translating a noun (&#12521;&#12540;&#12513;&#12531; to ramen) and changing the noun so that it is easy for a group to get (&#12521;&#12540;&#12513;&#12531; to hamburger). Yes, in idiomatic expressions and words with complex connotations that don't exist in other languages, it's necessary to change the words, but only so that those words reflect the same literal meaning. A sentence about ramen is about ramen, not hamburgers.

So if the game is trying to be funny in Japanese, and it fails to be funny in English, that's OK?
If the original intent of the author to make the audience laugh, you've failed if the localized version isn't amusing.

A joke about Japanese culture in English is still funny to someone who gets it. The only example I can think of that would totally satisfy what you're saying is a pun.

 

[Gravijah]

I speak three languages. One of them is Japanese. It is certainly possible to translate a statement non-literally while keeping the same basic meaning. I'm not saying that every word has to be translated directly because that doesn't make sense; I'm saying that there's a difference between translating a noun (&#12521;&#12540;&#12513;&#12531; to ramen) and changing the noun so that it is easy for a group to get (&#12521;&#12540;&#12513;&#12531; to hamburger). Yes, in idiomatic expressions and words with complex connotations that don't exist in other languages, it's necessary to change the words, but only so that those words reflect the same literal meaning. A sentence about ramen is about ramen, not hamburgers.

Ramen isn't what's important though. What ramen conveys is what matters.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

john tv translated a game that has really good writing and has an awesome localization, so i think he kinda wins by default

A joke about Japanese culture in English is still funny to someone who gets it. The only example I can think of that would totally satisfy what you're saying is a pun.

puns are pretty fucking widespread in japanese games

 

[RevenantKioku]

It could go either way. It could be a gesture that is completely foreign with no context clues as to what it meant, or it could've been something that made sense, just seemed a little "weird". Or it could've been something that was considered an insult in Portuguese. Without seeing the original scene, I couldn't say whether the gesture needed to be changed or whether it is better off changed or whether it didn't need to be changed at all. Whatever the case, I don't know that a disclaimer would be an appropriate substitute, but then I don't know that a disclaimer was really necessary in the first place.

It's like the batz-maru thing. In Western cultures, X marks the spot and O has become associated with canceling. In Japan, however, O is used to indicate a correct answer while the X is wrong/cancel. In most situations, this discrepancy doesn't require a change or explanation. But there are certain situations where it can lead to major confusion (one example is how the X and O button functions are switched while localizing Japanese games).

That example given is the batz-maru thing, though.

 

[Nairume]

"art, not a science" is a cop out. It's saying that you can do whatever the hell you want because you are not limited by rules.

No, calling it a science would be the cop out, because then you could just say "oh, well, I'm just following the norms" whenever you do anything. The people in the anime fan translation community who leave stuff translated as little as possible because they are just following their community's general rules are the ones copping out.

Admitting that it is an art means that you are admitting that there are not any truly defined rules. Each game/movie/cartoon/book/etc is a completely unique case from the other, and each translation is a completely unique case from the other based upon the audience.

 

[RevenantKioku]

A joke about Japanese culture in English is still funny to someone who gets it. The only example I can think of that would totally satisfy what you're saying is a pun.

Two cats were in a swimming competition. One-Two-Three and Un-Deux-Trois. Who won?

 

[Fugu]

Ramen isn't what's important though. What ramen conveys is what matters.

Then the entire plot can be rewritten as long as it conveys the same meaning? Your assertion that that's what "matters" is based on what, exactly?

puns are pretty fucking widespread in japanese games

Yeah they are. That doesn't excuse rewriting all of the other dialogue.

EDIT

Two cats were in a swimming competition. One-Two-Three and Un-Deux-Trois. Who won?

Quatre Cinq

 

[Pureauthor]

Then the entire plot can be rewritten as long as it conveys the same meaning? Your assertion that that's what "matters" is based on what, exactly?

Um, yes, of course it can? Whenever you localize something you're rewriting the plot/story of the game. The goal is for it to convey the same meaning to the audience.

As to what 'matters', like someone said earlier - if the original version was supposed to portray a person as a regular joe, then that's what the localized version should aim for as well - to portray a regular joe.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Quatre Cinq

I'm getting "Army death height crane group location world".

 

[Fugu]

Um, yes, of course it can? Whenever you localize something you're rewriting the plot/story of the game. The goal is for it to convey the same meaning to the audience.

As to what 'matters', like someone said earlier - if the original version was supposed to portray a person as a regular joe, then that's what the localized version should aim for as well - to portray a regular joe.

So it should matter because that's what should matter?
Solid.

I'm getting "Army death height crane group location world".

Maybe you just don't get the joke, then.

 

[Pureauthor]

So it should matter because that's what should matter?
Solid.

That that's what matters is based on the idea for a game that depends on the text to any significant degree (like, say, Phoenix Wright games), one should try to convey the meaning because otherwise you'd miss references/clues/meanings/a throwaway joke/what have you.

 

[Fugu]

That that's what matters is based on the idea for a game that depends on the text to any significant degree (like, say, Phoenix Wright games), one should try to convey the meaning because otherwise you'd miss references/clues/meanings/a throwaway joke/what have you.

Or they could simply convey the joke and it could be, as it is in Japanese, up to the reader to get the joke.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

A joke about Japanese culture in English is still funny to someone who gets it. The only example I can think of that would totally satisfy what you're saying is a pun.

So basically what you're arguing is that all localized games should attempt to appeal to less of an audience in favor of preserving the "integrity" of the text. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Again, more often than not, the language and setting is less of an integral portion of the plot and more about giving the player a sense of grounding. All the Japanese "isms" of a game like Chrono Trigger aren't there because the game is some supposed look at Japanese life and culture; they're there because it's a game for Japanese gamers and meant to still be identifiable to them in spite of being "foreign" (in this case, being set in a medieval/steampunk fantasy world with all sorts of crazy time travel nonsense). Why should we add an extra layer of foreignness to these games to supposedly preserve the "integrity" of text that no longer has meaning to all but a limited audience who care enough to know these cultural intricacies? Try and argue that "by that token, why even keep the game's script" all you want; it doesn't change the fact that it's a weak strawman argument that has practically never happened.

There are very few games that actually rely on being in Japan or being Japanese, or at least ones that make it Westward, and the ones that do almost always get a more literal treatment. Modern Persona is essentially based on relationships Japanese high school students have with each other, and unsurprisingly, those games got localizations that befits them; but even those games have numerous changes that you're essentially arguing should have never been made. For most other games with contemporary Japanese settings - Ace Attorney, Trauma Center, The World Ends With You - it's not important, and as such those games get tweaked to make them more palpable to a wider audience.

Or they could simply convey the joke and it could be, as it is in Japanese, up to the reader to get the joke.

That's just shitty writing. If you have the opportunity to rework the joke to have the same meaning but make sense to your audience, why should you leave it as is and just hope for the best? That's ludicrous.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Or they could simply convey the joke and it could be, as it is in Japanese, up to the reader to get the joke.

Why limit the audience, though?

It changes things. If it's a Japanese joke that the player doesn't get, they don't think "This character is a funny guy" they think "This character is confusing."

And Fugu, since you speak Japanese, let's see the cat joke in Japanese if you'd be so kind! Thanks!

 

[IrrelevantNotch]

Why limit the audience, though?

It changes things. If it's a Japanese joke that the player doesn't get, they don't think "This character is a funny guy" they think "This character is confusing."

"Why is this character making a Japanese joke in English?"

 

[Pureauthor]

Or they could simply convey the joke and it could be, as it is in Japanese, up to the reader to get the joke.

Except that your typical Western player is likely to lack the necessary grounding in Japanese culture or practices to get the joke or reference. The entire point of a localization is to provide a game for the audience of the area/region it's releasing in.