It's time to fully embrace smartphones and tablets as told by glorious nippon.
You fail to see any strong evidence because you discount the biggest and key piece of evidence that gives credence to my argument. We've come in a complete circle back to my original post. The Wii happened. Sorry. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist.Where is this assertion that I made any suggestion that the days of the PS2 are coming back? All I said was that in order to be successful the PS4 is going to have to tap into more than the enthusiast market, and it will have to. But there's no inherent necessity to attempt to tap into all markets at once, that's how you end up with a product that appeals to none like the Wii U.
Big publishers have always been risk averse. They'll be risk averse on powerful hardware, they'll be risk averse on weaker hardware.
When you're one person, or a small group, working out of a garage without shareholders and quarterly earnings you don't need to be as risk averse.
The "delinquent" is the consumer market that drives demand. Consumer demand shapes consumer goods. There isn't a fix, nor does there really need to be.
Everyone chases COD dollars because that's where the dollars are. Everyone pushes shiny and pretty because that's what people are buying. Set-pieces and shooters are in vogue. If and when they go out of fashion, publishers will move on and if EA and Acti-Blizz could put out games with PS2 graphics and call it a day, they would.
Meanwhile, the idea that motion controls still excites the masses really requires some sort of evidential support, considering there's sales data that suggests the opposite.
I didn't say they were a stupid gimmick; they're certainly not to my taste, but I completely recognise that there was a large market for what they offered. "was" is the operative word. And I also recognise there are some things that they do better than traditional controls. "some" being the operative word, as they also come with their own unique and inherent limitations. I'm perfectly capable of separating my preferences from examination of the current market situation, where Just Dance is a declining franchise, where the fitness genre drops 50% year over year, where a console released that tried to concurrently appeal to both enthusiast and casual markets has failed at either.
You would be thrilled if everybody invested in motion controls and combined them more with core gaming. That's nice. Is there anything to suggest the wider marketplace is after that though? Is the casual market that's seemingly vacated the console space for their smartdevices hankering for more precise motion controls to bring them back? Is the core market that drives tie ratios up and buys annualized franchises crying out for more integration of these functions into the titles? No.
I'd be thrilled if Japan could get it's act together and release more RPGs. But they wouldn't sell in the current market.
You stated it [motion control] was the most relevant possible direction and I'm sorry but I entirely fail to see how. There are plentiful alternative routes to innovation in games that are just as, if not more, relevant than control schemes. And you still, as yet, haven't offered particularly strong argument as to why that's the best and most relevant way forward. You state a boost in creativity, yet don't elaborate on what exactly that entailed and how it's any more "creative!" than the apparently creatively bankrupt wastelands that are the PS3 and 360 libraries.
I don't necessarily disagree the industry needs to change. It needs things like variable pricing models and appropriate budgeting for those models. Meanwhile, "we" can keep doing what we've been doing and buy things that appeal to us, the onus is not on the consumer to change their appetites, it's on producers to cater to them.
It does not necessitate a wholesale move to primarily catering towards a comparatively fickle market by focusing on a control paradigm that they seemingly no longer care about. And it does not need some sort of draconian restriction on the march of technology in what is fundamentally a technology driven industry.
Depends on how we define what fine is. Right now, I do not see the PS4 being able to match the PS3 in sales.
Where did I pretend it didn't exist? I explicitly stated that motion controls had a large market.You fail to see any strong evidence because you discount the biggest and key piece of evidence that gives credence to my argument. We've come in a complete circle back to my original post. The Wii happened. Sorry. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist.
The idea that motion control games no longer sell in mass quantities is not a myth. Any more than the idea that plastic peripheral games collapsed is a myth. Rockband proved itself, and then it didn't.The idea that the casual market apparently abandoned motion controls is a myth constructed by armchair annalists who want to justify inaction and maintain the status quo that makes them fat and dumb. The traditional console market supports this theory wholesale because it does not want to change. Change is difficult and painful. As you pointed out, the industry is inherently risk adverse. But that does not justify ignoring the questions the Wii raised.
Everything goes back to the Wii. It's the best and most relevant direction because it's already proven itself, and it would continue to prove itself if Nintendo hadn't massively dropped the ball. I'll say it one more time: I'm not asking for a product like the Wii U. Period. I want the Wii 2. The Wii U has never been the Wii 2.
This is the second time you've said this, and it's the second and last time I'll bother to ask - what exactly are you referring to that publishers and the developers who work for them neglecting? Are you referring to better AI? Are you referring to more realistic physics?Lowering the threshold for what graphics need to be lowers the amount of resources need to put into that area. By leveling the playing field in that respect, resources can be put into other areas like gameplay.
Being a technology driven industry and being a creatively driven industry are not mutually exclusive, in reality, contrary to your assertion, the former enables the latter.I thoroughly disagree that this a tech driven industry. It's a creativity driven industry. The sooner people realize this, the sooner gaming can actually develop as an art form. Until then, the obsession with tech will limit gaming to the status of toy or technical gadget.
Kinect is a gimmick, but the Wii remote, well that's the future. :|Edit: Because Kinect doesn't have nearly the same capabilities as the Wii remote. The Kinect might be the few times that the negative connotation of "gimmick" might be appropriate.
You fail to see any strong evidence because you discount the biggest and key piece of evidence that gives credence to my argument. We've come in a complete circle back to my original post. The Wii happened. Sorry. You can't just pretend it doesn't exist.
The idea that the casual market apparently abandoned motion controls is a myth constructed by armchair annalists who want to justify inaction and maintain the status quo that makes them fat and dumb. The traditional console market supports this theory wholesale because it does not want to change. Change is difficult and painful. As you pointed out, the industry is inherently risk adverse. But that does not justify ignoring the questions the Wii raised.
Everything goes back to the Wii. It's the best and most relevant direction because it's already proven itself, and it would continue to prove itself if Nintendo hadn't massively dropped the ball. I'll say it one more time: I'm not asking for a product like the Wii U. Period. I want the Wii 2. The Wii U has never been the Wii 2.
Collapse is a very strong word to describe the 3DS.
Lowering the threshold for what graphics need to be lowers the amount of resources need to put into that area. By leveling the playing field in that respect, resources can be put into other areas like gameplay.
The DS sold better while competing with the PSP and the 3DS now has the biggest PSP franchise as an exclusive. The DS had sold 6.15 million YTD at this point in 2007 while the 3DS has sold 4.07 YTD in 2013. The 3DS had also sold slightly more last year so it seems like it has peaked.
I don't think that's what happened though. in 2011 and 2012 there was a huge mismanagement in Nintendo, and some key titles we are seeing now were almost cancelled due to those constraints. But about the point of the misfire. Yes, yes they did, they misfired royally.You similarly can't pretend the Wii didn't fall off a cliff. It happened. You want to say it's because Nintendo dropped the ball, dropped support. Perhaps a different possibility exists, that Nintendo saw the writing on the wall? They saw sales softening, they saw the market leaving. Maybe Nintendo actually got that part right. The next step was Nintendo trying to chase that market with Wii U, and they got that part wrong. They misfired, it happens.
And yet another quote that I agree with 100%. The Wii showed that other areas need improvements just as raw power does, but that does not mean power is unimportant, not at all.Just to chime in a bit on this one particular point:
But isn't that exactly what both Sony and MS are doing this gen? Neither have really put out machines that are technical beasts in the same way the 360 and PS3 were when they were released. Both have prioritized ease-of-development and accessible hardware this time around, which has resulted in hardware that, while powerful, isn't bleeding edge and doesn't require Sony and MS to massively loss-lead in the beginning of the gen. As an added bonus, more of the hardware is available to devs right out the gate (unlike the steep learning curves it took to figure out the 360's, and especially PS3's, exotic architecture).
So it seems like the industry is doing exactly as you suggest, you're just arguing that they aren't doing it the exact way Nintendo's doing it. But what gave Nintendo the right to determine when it is and isn't time for the industry to prioritize power? Certainly not their performance now.
You similarly can't pretend the Wii didn't fall off a cliff. It happened. You want to say it's because Nintendo dropped the ball, dropped support. Perhaps a different possibility exists, that Nintendo saw the writing on the wall? They saw sales softening, they saw the market leaving. Maybe Nintendo actually got that part right. The next step was Nintendo trying to chase that market with Wii U, and they got that part wrong. They misfired, it happens.
If you acknowledge there's a large market for motion controls, then why do you not see it as a possible direction for growth? Is the assumption that casual gamers will never upgrade from Wii and will always be satisfied with mobile gaming? I see no evidence for this just as much as I don't see any evidence that casual gamers will hop on the PS4 and Xbone in a few years. We can only predict the behavior of casual gamers based on what they buy, and they bought Wii in droves. It's not a logical leap that a new console with improved motion controls (not just graphics) will interest the casual gamers, especially if it opens up new possibilities for unique games like Wii Sports and Just Dance.Where did I pretend it didn't exist? I explicitly stated that motion controls had a large market.
The idea that motion control games no longer sell in mass quantities is not a myth. Any more than the idea that plastic peripheral games collapsed is a myth. Rockband proved itself, and then it didn't.
You state others having an inability to separate their own personal tastes and desires from dispassionate analysis, and frankly you do the same. Who is the market for the Wii 2 and why do they buy it? What is the pain point?
Is the "casual" market looking for a replacement, do they need greater fidelity in translation of their motions into games? On what basis?
Do they want improved graphical fidelity to go with their fitness and minigames? What basis is there to suggest they will upgrade?
The Wii 2 you envisage is no more a sound idea in core conception than the Wii U is at appealing to both the enthusiast and the casual gamer.
Something old is not going to draw those people back; something new certainly might. But that something new is clearly not a tablet controller.
This is the second time you've said this, and it's the second and last time I'll bother to ask - what exactly are you referring to that publishers and the developers who work for them neglecting? Are you referring to better AI? Are you referring to more realistic physics?
Or are you, once again, referring to them neglecting motion controls as synonymous with "gameplay"?
Being a technology driven industry and being a creatively driven industry are not mutually exclusive, in reality, contrary to your assertion, the former enables the latter.
You state you want discussion with all the fat, dumb people on here and yet the condescension in your posts wholly suggests otherwise.Kinect is a gimmick, but the Wii remote, well that's the future. :|
A lot of people here also seem to think that the Wii U's biggest problem is marketing, not that the product itself is simply not appealing, so that's not surprising.Good luck getting that through people's heads. It seems to be a deep rooted myth around here, that the Wii died because Nintendo "dropped support".
The reality is that Nintendo supported the Wii more than any other console they ever made. They released Smash. They released not one, but two 3D Marios. They released Mario Kart. They had Zelda. They had NSMB. They had Wii Sports and all the other Wii whatever games. What the fuck else were they supposed to do? The truth is, all these titles combined led to explosive hardware sales for a period of four years or so. Then sales fell off. Is it because Nintendo failed to release three extra games or something? No. That was just the natural lifespan of that particular product. Not even the ps2 stayed relevant forever, and there was nothing Sony could do to stop that. Markets change. Demographics evolve.
One of the biggest problems with the Wii U is marketing. It's not the biggest problem.A lot of people here also seem to think that the Wii U's biggest problem is marketing, not that the product itself is simply not appealing, so that's not surprising.
A lot of people here also seem to think that the Wii U's biggest problem is marketing, not that the product itself is simply not appealing, so that's not surprising.
A lot of people here even struggle to understand the system so I really do think marketing is the biggest issue. I tried to make a mock advertisement of the Wii U once out of boredom to try to prove how awful Nintendo's marketing was for the system and I ran into the same problems they likely did. It's just really hard to explain in few words. My best ideas were all to make people nostalgic for Nintendo products. The problem with that is that you're downplaying what makes the system different. Things like the ability to play games in your room is a hard idea to communicate. The Wii U is solving problems for people that they're not aware of which is difficult territory. I still think it is a very strong product. Nintendo just took on a very difficult marketing task and I don't think their current talent can handle it.
A lot of people here also seem to think that the Wii U's biggest problem is marketing, not that the product itself is simply not appealing, so that's not surprising.
You're a fool then. I'd urge you to play some the finest games ever. You provably don't have the skill thoughNintendo's biggest problem in North America is that people would rather play first person shooter or sports games online. There will always be a dedicated core of fans for Nintendo's first person games, but a lot of us moved on a decade or so ago.
We're getting the kids a Wii for Christmas. They seem to love Mario games, but for me, they are simply irrelevant.
The sales will be better. Probably much better. Just...still not as great as anyone wants them to be. It comes with the territory.I don't think the Japan sales will be very representative of US sales. The Wii U situation is even worse in Japan than in the United States. The software drought has been far worse there and the console looks pretty dead at this point.
Still I'm not expecting anything too crazy out of US sales.
I think the fundamental issue with the Wii U here is that it's trying to solve a problem that, for most people, isn't really a problem. Case in point: the bolded.
The majority of homes in the West have more than one television, and this has been true for a while. I'm sure everyone has at least one childhood memory of fighting for the right to play videogames on a TV, but I think the current state of the Wii U is demonstrating that the severity of this particular problem has been a bit overstated.
You're a fool then. I'd urge you to play some the finest games ever. You provably don't have the skill though
LOL. My skills were forged in the 8 bit days where "fairness" was a foreign concept for gamers. Pretty much the only game that ever broke me back then was Ninja Gaiden. Grrrr....
Good luck getting that through people's heads. It seems to be a deep rooted myth around here, that the Wii died because Nintendo "dropped support".
The reality is that Nintendo supported the Wii more than any other console they ever made. They released Smash. They released not one, but two 3D Marios. They released Mario Kart. They had Zelda. They had NSMB. They had Wii Sports and all the other Wii whatever games. What the fuck else were they supposed to do? The truth is, all these titles combined led to explosive hardware sales for a period of four years or so. Then sales fell off. Is it because Nintendo failed to release three extra games or something? No. That was just the natural lifespan of that particular product. Not even the ps2 stayed relevant forever, and there was nothing Sony could do to stop that. Markets change. Demographics evolve.
I've stated numerous times what I wanted isn't the Wii U and pointed out repeatedly what makes it different from the Wii U, but OK.Exactly. Sergiepoo keeps singing the same song & dance of what he's repeating again & again, & plenty of times we told him why the strategy of what he's coming up with (& what Nintendo's doing right now with the Wii U) isn't working.
100k? But isn't that like 100% attach rate then??
realtalk: can we have console sales at Mario game launch figures to compare?
Well after Mario Kart.....Firing Iwata is the only thing left.
I said there was a large market for it and stressed that being the key word. There was a large market for Tony Hawk games. There was a large market for plastic music peripherals. There was a large market for JRPGs. They bought the Wii in droves, as they bought Rockband in droves. You'll presumably strawman this as my calling the Wii a "fad", and it wasn't, any more than JRPGs and survival horror were a fad. Any more than FPSs are currently a fad. The market changes, consumer desires change. The "core" market is also fickle with regard to what it buys, but it's simply been a more reliable software consumer in the console space.If you acknowledge there's a large market for motion controls, then why do you not see it as a possible direction for growth? Is the assumption that casual gamers will never upgrade from Wii and will always be satisfied with mobile gaming? I see no evidence for this just as much as I don't see any evidence that casual gamers will hop on the PS4 and Xbone in a few years. We can only predict the behavior of casual gamers based on what they buy, and they bought Wii in droves. It's not a logical leap that a new console with improved motion controls (not just graphics) will interest the casual gamers, especially if it opens up new possibilities for unique games like Wii Sports and Just Dance.
Oh what I'm suggesting is not entirely for my benefit, though I would not be arguing in favor of the technology if I didn't believe in it. I will only tangentially benefit from some of experimentation of using motion controls with more hardcore genres. Despite my criticisms of hardcore gamers, my taste aligns far more with them, and I would not necessarily like all the casual games that would be made. However, I have no hesitation to trying these games out before I judge them. The "pain" is that hardcore gamers like myself need to accept that we share this industry with casual gamers.
You want me to give a concrete definition of gameplay, so when I can't, you can return to your point that focusing on gameplay is an excuse for underpowered consoles. By gameplay I mean new mechanics. It could mean a number of different things, but it's basically everything divorced from pure aesthetics. That's about as specific as I can get because people's definitions of gamplay are extremely subjective. Gameplay can be innovated on with our without motion controls, but motion controls certainly help generate new ideas based on the amount of fun many people had with the Wii. The industry doesn't need motion controls to innovate, but we have the technology available, and as you point out, there's a large market for it.
Obligatory
I still can't believe it sold so low. That's ~10% or less of the total Wii U owners in Japan. What the hell is the other 90% doing?
Damn... tick tock.... tick tock...
Collapse is a very strong word to describe the 3DS.
Japan Japan Japan
So far this generation:
PSP collapsed into Vita
Wii collapsed into Wii U
DS collapsed slightly more elegantly into 3DS
MS lol
I'm not too optimistic for the PS4 over there to be honest.
Meanwhile in Japan:
no fucks is given
Media Create - Software Sales
2009 > 68M 2013 -> 41M (Week 47)
Media Create - Hardware Sales
(Jan 1,2007 Nov 25,2007) (Dec 31,2012 - Nov 24,2013)
NDS 6,153,877 3DS 4,032,539
PSP 2,385,574 PSV 940,854
GBA 50,247 PSP 404,060
Handhelds 8,589,698 Handhelds 5,377,453
Wii 2,951,022 PS3 733,341
PS3 934,310 Wii U 563,669
PS2 682,503 Wii 66,104
360 202,358 360 22,785
GC 10,385 PSV TV 50,040
Home Consoles 4,780,578 Home Consoles 1,435,939
Total 13,370,276 Total 6,813,392
Famitsu Top 30 Since 3DS Launch (Feb 21, 2011 Nov 24, 2013)
Third Party SW TOT TOT - (MH + DQ)
-----------------------------------------------------------
PS3 23,088,527 22,677,115
3DS 17,316,813 10,247,725
PSV 3,035,874 3,035,874
Good luck getting that through people's heads. It seems to be a deep rooted myth around here, that the Wii died because Nintendo "dropped support".
The reality is that Nintendo supported the Wii more than any other console they ever made. They released Smash. They released not one, but two 3D Marios. They released Mario Kart. They had Zelda. They had NSMB. They had Wii Sports and all the other Wii whatever games. What the fuck else were they supposed to do?
Stand by my earlier claim, Steve Youngblood's argument of calling the systems death after sales figures for only one major software title, is unreasonable.
Stand by my earlier claim, Steve Youngblood's argument of calling the systems death after sales figures for only one major software title, is unreasonable.
Then there's Yarn Yoshi as well at some point.
Stand by my earlier claim, Steve Youngblood's argument of calling the systems death after sales figures for only one major software title, is unreasonable.
Ewww, I really didn't want to remember that game. :'(
You're completely ignoring their release dates there. People don't say that Nintendo dropped support from the Wii because of the overall line up, but due to the small line up in the last few years of the console. They had already released many mainstays, but then they should have released creative sequels or completely new high profile titles, not just close the book and drastically drop support.
There was a fairly big drought already after Smash Bros and Mario Kart, where Wii Music and Animal Crossing were the only big titles for almost an entire year (sales worldwide continued fine here, but they did drop in Japan, and it was at this point that sales of core 3rd party games seemed to drop, which suggests that a certain segment of the market abandoned it here), after that, support returned and continued for another period though, but then it just stopped again.
Skyward Sword came very late into the system's life, but there was little around it by that point, it wasn't a sustainable environment by the time it came out. Do you know any example of a console that continued selling for a long period even without any significant releases? It's true that especially the hardware sales had to come to a decline at some point, but I don't see how that justifies the fairly early abandonment of a console with a bigger user base than they had had in years.