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[pr0cs]

i can't tell who i like better,

this has to be a trick question no?

 

[megashock5]

Kutaragi: It will be expensive ... consumers need to think to themselves 'I will work more hours to buy one'.

Really, this is where Sony gave up the "casual" market (hate that term, but for argument's sake). PS3 could have launched with this Move controller, but $249 and $599 are entirely different beasts.

The current price could attract those customers, but how many are going to buy another system at this point? I guess we'll see.

 

[plagiarize]

i still like 'vibrowand' better.

the spinning back fist demonstrates something that a game like this is going to struggle with.

the wand knows it does an arc and disappears from the camera for a second, but unless you've got Natal esque processing going on, there's no easy way to recognise a spin from running about in a circle... if that makes sense.

now, i'm not using that as a limitation to try and make natal sound amazing, cause we know that too has it's limitations... i'm just saying... yeah... that's an example of a time that this isn't going to work perfectly every time.

i don't think that gif really proves anything but a lack of understanding of what move can do. move can be tracked in three dimensions to a high degree of precision. it can be used with the camera to do cool stuff like replacing the wand with a sword or an umbrella or whatever too.

it can't do full body tracking. all it's tracking in the fighting game is two points and then it has to guess what the body is doing.

could they potentially make something that can better track the body? dunno. but like wii boxing kind of showed, if you do something that does 1:1 fist tracking and try to make something with any depth to it (which wii boxing didn't try) you're just going to end up with two people swinging their arms around and no strategy at all.

and i knew someone was going to try and claim that the move prototype was shown before the Wii was announced...

it wasn't. something was demonstrated that used similar colour recognition to track cups in front of a camera and have them interact in a virtual world. it was cool sure enough.

that technology has been used to make a slightly better wiimote. that technology has been used to ape the wiimote.

that's fine. if we hadn't had people ape the analogue stick, gaming wouldn't be nearly as fun. i do think motion control is the way forwards and i think the fidelity of it is getting to the point where the limitations are becoming minimal and the drawbacks vs a regular controller are going away...

but to try and pretend still, today, after Sony just demonstrated their controller with the same damn games nintendo demonstrated theirs with... that this isn't Sony's direct answer to the wii... it's boggling short sighted.

this is Sony's answer to the wii. technically a slightly better version of the same thing, that has the advantage of potentially cool things being done with the playstation eye.

they'll need the software to sell it though. the wiiremote doesn't sell the Wii. the games do.

right now... we don't know all the titles in development... but we haven't seen anything that looks to lead that charge yet.

but like i keep saying, somewhere the Flow/Flower team are hard at work on something that is going to use Move, and it isn't going to look like any other game we've seen before.

 

[Trent Strong]

Weird PC games by eastern European developers are starting to look really good right about now. Drakensang and Stalker FTMFW?

 

[Raoh]

LMFAO

 

[jufonuk]

I am going to sound like a fanboy but here we go.....

oh man wonder if like rockstar and epic and all (Casual/waggle games are for teh kidzzz)

are going to create motion based games??

So games that wouldn't sell on the Wii because they were shite shovelware are now being designed for the PS3 in HD for more monies? yet will not sell, the same thing will happen for Natal.
I do not care what system said game is on a shite game is still shite.

Devs lose money due to higher costs on HD systems.. ok sure why not makes logical buisness sense.

Sony loses money through R&D of Move, MS may follow suit if they fail to come up with a killer motion app.

Nintendo will lose 3rd party developers over time as they go to do the exact same thing on the HD twins. all the while sticking their fingers in their ears going "la la la la la I can't hear you" to the amount of money they are losing.

Sony and MS Alienate thier core base of users IE the people who didn't buy a Wii because they wanted the type of games the 360 and PS3 offer over Wii. (you know when they hit for a while it will be all about the motion.. every game will have to have it as they spent so much developing it, every game shoe horned in it will be an open secret )

I keep predicting it but I feel a second video games crash incoming.

Nintendo what have you done???

Oh well fuck it we can all look forward to playing ipads in future...

Or
MS and Sony get it right and they work awesomely with the chance to play L4D3/Uncharted 3 with KB + Mouse style aiming.

then Nintendo release something more insanely different but in HD and the cycle starts all over again <--- yeah I am betting that one happens

Spoiler

I am not sure if I am serious either??!?

 

[NO!R]

i still like 'vibrowand' better.

the spinning back fist demonstrates something that a game like this is going to struggle with.

the wand knows it does an arc and disappears from the camera for a second, but unless you've got Natal esque processing going on, there's no easy way to recognise a spin from running about in a circle... if that makes sense.

"vibrowand" sounds cool, although a little prototypical. I still like PSR better (sounds like a gun, even).
The tag line I came up with earlier works great too: Reach into your game. Reach your full potential. PlayStation®REACH™

 

[durendal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EyeToy
Wikipedia says EyeToy (the PS2 version) sold 10.5 million units worldwide as of November 6, 2008. The same guy who did EyeToy, also demoed a Move prototype back in 2005, before the Wii was even announced, in the same conference where he demoed their R&D with some features announced for Natal (others are already implemented in PSEye or EyeToy).

BTW people now seems to forget this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Live_Vision

To put this into perspective, this is what Sony is up against and what they're trying to replicate (numbers from Wikipedia):
Wii Fit: 22.56 million in ~2 years.
Wii Sports Resort: 13.58 million in ~6 months

I'm sure EyeToy was successful for the resources put into it, but it's clear Sony was not able to win people over in the way Nintendo has managed. It's going to be an uphill battle for them to win over Wii owners, as they claim Move will do, with merely a technology upgrade.

 

[Karma]

Ugh. At least that's the exception not the rule like it is with all of the natal showings so far..

 

[crazygambit]

Is ******** banned also for articles?

Anyhow, I thought this was interesting.

The first of the two games on display for the Sports Champions is a table tennis game. Just as with table tennis in Wii Sports Resort, you control just the paddle, and not the character. Spin, backhand, tilt, and velocity are all replicated relatively effectively, but if you're looking for completely 1:1 controls you will not find them here. The game will mostly swing when you do, but there is a required delay between swings, and if you're swinging really early the game may not swing till the ball gets there. In addition, there seems to be a limit to the speed of your blow, and if you're swinging very fast you'll notice that the arm is actually completing its swing well after you have finished your own. That said, these are issues that motion controlled Table Tennis already had on Wii, but it's disappointing that this isn't the simulator people may have been looking for.

So I went from being pretty excited to dissapointed quite quickly. I understand those are supposed to be casual games, but that doesn't mean you can't have a simulation mode or something. I don't think this is the tech's fault though.

I guess I'll wait for Rockstar Table Tennis 2 or something. I reaaaally want a good table tennis simulation since I used to play a lot, but now I simply don't have the time (or the space for a table).

I already know the wii version is pretty much unplayable if you want to be serious (I've tried) and apparently this one is no better. Real shame.

Take me out of the WANT list for now.

 

[Nafai1123]

Personally, I thought Socom 4 looked like it controlled pretty well using the wand. Sure, most of the mini-games they showcased looked like shit, but the actual hardware seems to be the most promising for the hardcore gamer atm. Give me Killzone 3 with motion controls!

 

[lethial]

A slightly more inspired version than that mess I posted earlier.

EDIT:

Let's brainstorm guise!
There's gotta be something better than just "Move". Or maybe this will be the commercial. God forbid...

Not bad for a MS Paint job.........................................................................................

 

[filopilo]

1:1 ping pong would be unplayable for 99% people.You have to make simplifications at the game design level.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Is ******** banned also for articles?

Anyhow, I thought this was interesting.



So I went from being pretty excited to dissapointed quite quickly. I understand those are supposed to be casual games, but that doesn't mean you can't have a simulation mode or something. I don't think this is the tech's fault though.

I guess I'll wait for Rockstar Table Tennis 2 or something. I reaaaally want a good table tennis simulation since I used to play a lot, but now I simply don't have the time (or the space for a table).

I already know the wii version is pretty much unplayable if you want to be serious (I've tried) and apparently this one is no better. Real shame.

Take me out of the WANT list for now.

It seems the gladiator part of Sports Champions doesn't have real 1:1 tracking either:

The gladiator game is about as fun as it looks, we'll have video after the break momentarily. Unfortunately, while it's less of a defined experience than something like the sword game on Wii Sports Resort, you're still working through a library of sensed, pre-defined actions instead of a true 1:1 fighting game with simulated physics. Not that it isn't possible with PlayStation Move, just that it's not this.

 

[Mudkips]

1:1 ping pong would be unplayable for 99% people.You have to make simplifications at the game design level.

Seems to me 99% of people are capable of playing actual ping pong.

Beyond that, I'm enjoying the crow the Wii haters are being served up.

"ARC/GEM and NATAL will be TRUE 1:1."
"Motion+ isn't 1:1! You need to RECALIBRATE IT. That ruins my immersion!"
Etc.

I can't wait to see how the bundled game is not Wii Sports and Wii Play.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Am I the only one thinking that this got old ages ago?

I'm in the "this should be a banned meme" club with you. This shit was old months ago.

 

[belvedere]

Is ******** banned also for articles?

Anyhow, I thought this was interesting.



So I went from being pretty excited to dissapointed quite quickly. I understand those are supposed to be casual games, but that doesn't mean you can't have a simulation mode or something. I don't think this is the tech's fault though.

I guess I'll wait for Rockstar Table Tennis 2 or something. I reaaaally want a good table tennis simulation since I used to play a lot, but now I simply don't have the time (or the space for a table).

I already know the wii version is pretty much unplayable if you want to be serious (I've tried) and apparently this one is no better. Real shame.

Take me out of the WANT list for now.

I'd go read pretty much anyone else's impressions. Even engadget had good things to say about the responsiveness and accuracy. I was expecting lol's and was surprised to find nearly everyone posting positive impressions.

 

[BruceWayneIII]

I'd go read pretty much anyone else's impressions. Even engadget had good things to say about the responsiveness and accuracy. I was expecting lol's and was surprised to find nearly everyone posting positive impressions.

Have you read Eurogamer's impressions? They surprised me by actually trying to find both the good and the bad in all titles.

 

[crazygambit]

1:1 ping pong would be unplayable for 99% people.You have to make simplifications at the game design level.

Ok, sure. Just like having difficulty levels in other games. To be fair we don't know if they were playing on easy.

I'd go read pretty much anyone else's impressions. Even engadget had good things to say about the responsiveness and accuracy. I was expecting lol's and was surprised to find nearly everyone posting positive impressions.

I did. I saw the videos of engadget also and let me tell you, that guy doesn't have a clue about playing table tennis. He's standing completely straight (jeez bend your knees a little at least) with the paddle by his side, just moving his forearms for swings. So yeah, I definetily couldn't care less what he has to say about the motions.

I understand that probably expecting a simulation out of what looks to be a party game might be unreasonable, but Sony keeps touting they're Playstation and also cater to the hardcore. I don't see why they couldn't do both in this case. Simplify it for casuals and people that don't know how to play, but also give us simulation if we want it.

 

[belvedere]

Have you read Eurogamer's impressions? They surprised me by actually trying to find both the good and the bad in all titles.

Yeah, those were the first I read. I was shocked. Usually go for the jugular.

I said engadgets, but IIRC they just linked to Joystiq's impressions which were positive as well.

The commonality is definitely cautious optimism.

 

[BruceWayneIII]

Eurogamer on the table tennis game:

I get to try table tennis and the gladiatorial game. The first uses a single controller to mimic a table tennis bat and I'm immediately struck by how amazingly smoothly and accurately Move tracks my movements. It's a step up from Wii MotionPlus, no doubt. Table tennis plays a fair bit slower than the real-life game, which is probably just as well. It doesn't use the buttons whatsoever; you apply spin by angling the bat and direct shots by angling your body and by your follow-through when you strike the ball, just as you would in real life. Your avatar fades away, just showing your bat floating in mid-air, while useful on-screen guides show you where incoming balls are going to land and give your a target to aim for. The game also helpfully tells you what you're doing wrong when you miss. It's all 100 per cent convincing.

and on the Gladiator duel game:

Meanwhile, gladiator duel is a best-of-three bout of sword-and-shield (or in my case, hammer-and-shield) combat where victory is earned by knocking your AI opponent out of the ring or depleting their health bar. It can also be played with a single Move controller, buttons operating the shield, but it's much more fun with two, standing side-on to the screen, holding your "shield" in front of you and batting away the AI opponent's attacks. Once again, your avatar fades out, leaving just the weapon and shield in view, and giving you an almost first-person perspective on the action. It's fast-paced, satisfying and extremely responsive, especially after Motion Fighter. There are some neat combos, blocking with the shield powers up a super-move, and you can even jump attack by, well, jumping. But it's all about how instinctive and accurate wielding the weapon and shield feels. With no sensation of lag at all and proper three-dimensional tracking in full song, Sports Champions shows Sony's motion controller at its best. It may be too early to say whether "it only does everything", but in this game at least, it only does exactly what it says.

 

[boiled goose]

Sports titles look pretty good, yet derivative and unoriginal.

The more casual stuff looks like Wii third party shovelware games.

:lol at people saying Mii's have no charm. Have you actually played Wii sports and stuff with your family? The miis always put a smile on peoples faces because they are really simple yet charming and goofy.


Move ping pong should definitely have an advantage over Motion plus ping pong if done well. No calibration problems.

Im interested in the pointer!

 

[SolidusDave]

While I think the tech is the best out of all three systems, the early demonstrations looked more interesting than any of these games...
Also I didn't expect them to come up with worse art directions than the Eyetoy games, do casuals only like bad art so they can identify the shovelware or what's the deal here?

 

[Concept17]

Eurogamer on the table tennis game:



and on the Gladiator duel game:

sounds awesome

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Sony’s Motion Controller Underwhelms With Janky Games:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/03/sony-gdc/#more-21972

Sony let us try a few of the games after its presentation. On the whole, they weren’t that much fun, feeling more like rough proof-of-concept tech demos than software that’s will excite consumers. If the Move is more precise than the Wii remote, it didn’t much matter when PlayStation 3’s versions of tennis and bowling just felt jankier than Wii Sports. At this point, the software isn’t living up to the promises of the technology.

Another mini-game in Champion Sports was called “Gladiator Duel,” or as I like to call it, “Beat a Woman to Death With a Hammer: The Game.” This actually used two Moves to play: One controls your sword, the other your shield.

One unique thing that Move does that Wii can’t is augmented reality. The camera can show the player on the TV screen and overlay images onto the controller, making it look as if you’re holding a whip, a sword, even a hair trimmer. The game Move Party showed off these features, but it seemed more like a slick visual gimmick than an exciting new type of game.

An area where Move seems markedly inferior to Wii, based on what we played, is pointing at the screen. Two games used the controller as a gun — the aforementioned Socom and a cartoony shooting gallery called The Shoot — and the control felt laggy, as if the cursor was trailing after my movements instead of reacting right alongside them.

 

[belvedere]

Keep digging guys, you're up to 2 now.

:lol

 

[Zoramon089]

I've said it before, it's because it appears gesture based (Motion Fighter). They try to hide it with it tracking the balls for body position and having nice animation but that lag, if the Move is as accurate as everyone is claiming, has to be from gesture recognition. 1:1 wouldn't be like that

 

[nocode]

Keep digging guys, you're up to 2 now.

:lol

Is Engadget and Wired really digging? Not exactly scraping the bottom of the barrel, those are two pretty big media outlets. These impressions sure sound A LOT like what happened when the Wii was first shown, with good and bad impressions. And that gif of the guy trying the spin move makes it look exactly like how the Wii reacts.

 

[Phantast2k]

So what? This does not nearly equate to the lag and unresponsiveness that we've seen from natal (real life demonstrations, no cg ads).

I also find it laughable to troll other people's hype when your hype is based solely on a promise and cg commercials (not necessarily directed at you, Karma).

 

[Garjon]

A slightly more inspired version than that mess I posted earlier.

EDIT:

Let's brainstorm guise!
There's gotta be something better than just "Move". Or maybe this will be the commercial. God forbid...

:lol :lol :lol An admin should just wipe this thread, leaving just your posts.
Seriously, I don't know if you're for real or taking the piss

EDIT: Sorry, I meant to quote your earlier post

 

[crazygambit]

I've said it before, it's because it appears gesture based (Motion Fighter). They try to hide it with it tracking the balls for body position and having nice animation but that lag, if the Move is as accurate as everyone is claiming, has to be from gesture recognition. 1:1 wouldn't be like that

They didn't try to hide it at all. It was pretty clear that this game in particular relies on gesture recognition. In fact on one part of the video the game TELLS you the gestures it recognizes.

Doesn't mean other games can't be 1:1, which apparently is more difficult to get working well under the confines of game design (it's difficult to give the player too much freedom for balancing and what not).

 

[Hot Coldman]

So... the Move looks pretty neat. It's like a Wiimote on steroids, which is something I guess I can get behind. Not too sure on the software line-up so far, the graphics on those 'My First Move Game' titles are pretty shocking, but hey, those kind of games are sorta needed to begin with. The fighting game looks promising too.

 

[Dogenzaka]

1:1 ping pong would be unplayable for 99% people.You have to make simplifications at the game design level.

This is something I've been thinking about and something I AM worried about for MOVE.

How many of you would really enjoy playing a Zelda game, basketball game, tennis game, etc. with 1:1? Are any of you swordsmen, professional sports players, etc.? It would be really hard considering it's basically mimicking your real-life movements.

 

[TransTrender]

:ralph-wiggum-no.gif:

 

[nocode]

This is something I've been thinking about and something I AM worried about for MOVE.

How many of you would really enjoy playing a Zelda game, basketball game, tennis game, etc. with 1:1? Are any of you swordsmen, professional sports players, etc.? It would be really hard considering it's basically mimicking your real-life movements.

Oh good, you're starting to come back down to earth. Because, you know, you were starting to freak people out a little last night.

Spoiler

relax, I'm just joking around

 

[Raist]

Seems to me 99% of people are capable of playing actual ping pong.

Beyond that, I'm enjoying the crow the Wii haters are being served up.

"ARC/GEM and NATAL will be TRUE 1:1."
"Motion+ isn't 1:1! You need to RECALIBRATE IT. That ruins my immersion!"
Etc.

I can't wait to see how the bundled game is not Wii Sports and Wii Play.

The fact that it's not going to reproduce 100% of your moves (which would probably be a potential way to fuck up the game) doesn't mean that your moves aren't reproduced exactly.
I mean, the E3 reveal pretty much proved that it really is capable of 1:1 tracking.

 

[Insane Metal]

Eurogamer's impressions are positive, didn't expect that. Maybe it's not so bad as people were thinking?

 

[J-Rzez]

i can't tell who i like better, you or j-rzez

you're just hilarity in a ball of earnest youth, accessible and funny to everyone, while he presents a laughing stock for the more distinguished palate

Hmm, you impressed me. I thought my humor would be way over your level.

Facts are:
- Nobody should have expected mind-blowing stuff here. It is what it is, especially for GDC.
- There is an audience who laps up this goofy mini-game stuff.
- It will get tied into basically every high profile PS3 AAA title made by their first party devs and owned IPs.
- I cringed when I saw it tied into SOCOM.
- It's getting worse and worse for MS now. Apparently, people's expectations have further grown from when "natal" was first shown.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

This is something I've been thinking about and something I AM worried about for MOVE.

How many of you would really enjoy playing a Zelda game, basketball game, tennis game, etc. with 1:1? Are any of you swordsmen, professional sports players, etc.? It would be really hard considering it's basically mimicking your real-life movements.

After the announcement and showings last night, I popped Wii Sports Resort back in because I remembered that I barely touched about half of the games.

Well, I re-discovered why I left Frisbee or Frisbee Golf alone. I have never been able to throw a Frisbee worth a damn in real life, and I sucked just as bad in WSR.

 

[golem]

Sony’s Motion Controller Underwhelms With Janky Games:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/03/sony-gdc/#more-21972

I didnt know Janky was a technical term haha

 

[JasoNsider]

All I want to add to this excellent thread is that every time I've seen this photo I thought it was him with an open mouthed, toothless smile. It wasn't until later that I thought maybe it was just the shine of his lips or something. Once you see the open-mouthed-toothless you cannot unsee it and it's about 20x funnier than it already was! :lol

 

[Nirolak]

Sony’s Motion Controller Underwhelms With Janky Games:
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/03/sony-gdc/#more-21972

An area where Move seems markedly inferior to Wii, based on what we played, is pointing at the screen. Two games used the controller as a gun — the aforementioned Socom and a cartoony shooting gallery called The Shoot — and the control felt laggy, as if the cursor was trailing after my movements instead of reacting right alongside them.

This...


This is terrible if it doesn't get fixed.

 

[Link Man]

This is something I've been thinking about and something I AM worried about for MOVE.

How many of you would really enjoy playing a Zelda game, basketball game, tennis game, etc. with 1:1? Are any of you swordsmen, professional sports players, etc.? It would be really hard considering it's basically mimicking your real-life movements.

You're not considering the possibility that the game will steadily increase in difficulty, thus allowing you to polish your skills and become more proficient with the mechanics. This is basic philosophy in game design, and should not be discounted simply because we are dealing with motion control.

 

[TTP]

This...


This is terrible if it doesn't get fixed.

Yep. That would be totally unacceptable and Move breaking.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

This...


This is terrible if it doesn't get fixed.

It's a hardware limitation. As I explained before, the move controller is not capable of absolute pointing like the Wiimote. It can work in one of two ways, either by detecting absolute position (meaning that you have to actually physically move the controller towards the corners of the screen if you want to aim there. It's a slow but accurate setup that can have sensitivity adjusted to compensate somewhat) or by detecting the tilt of the controller (Fast, but completely abstract and void of the same accuracy as the Wiimote pointer. Same way that gyroscopic mice work)

Neither setup is ideal, but one might work better than the other in certain situations (absolute positioning would be good for drawing on screen and making accurate motions, tilt controls would be good for fast aiming)

My guess is that The Shoot is using absolute positioning (hence the slow sluggish movement and the need for wider motions) while Socom is using tilt (Notice how very little movement is actually needed, but there's a ton of auto aim assist)

 

[Cipherr]

Expected to see Gaf eating this shit up. To my surprise though people are calling it what it is. This just did NOT impress.

 

[LCfiner]

Expected to see Gaf eating this shit up. To my surprise though people are calling it what it is. This just did NOT impress.

really? why?

Gaf was unimpressed with last year’s MS and Sony motion demos at E3 and this demo was about the same level of quality.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I've said it before, it's because it appears gesture based (Motion Fighter). They try to hide it with it tracking the balls for body position and having nice animation but that lag, if the Move is as accurate as everyone is claiming, has to be from gesture recognition. 1:1 wouldn't be like that

It's definitely gesture based, especially when moves like spinning does not have the ball pointed to the camera and the gyroscope picks up the signal instead. Even if the hardware is 1:1, both Wii and PS3 titles (other than sports-based or simple activity based) will never be 1:1.

 

[gofreak]

It's a hardware limitation. As I explained before, the move controller is not capable of absolute pointing like the Wiimote. It can work in one of two ways, either by detecting absolute position (meaning that you have to actually physically move the controller towards the corners of the screen if you want to aim there. It's a slow but accurate setup that can have sensitivity adjusted to compensate somewhat) or by detecting the tilt of the controller (Fast, but completely abstract and void of the same accuracy as the Wiimote pointer. Same way that gyroscopic mice work)

There's really a lot of bullshit and assumption in this post.

There's no complaint here about the accuracy of the pointing direction. The complaint is about lag.

If the demo was only using translational pointing, saying it would be 'slow' makes no sense. It would be as fast as you can move the controller to another point...unless there was lag.

The technical accuracy of orientation data is totally up in the air, but it is a big assumption on your part that there's a deficiency here.

Again, no one has complained about the accuracy of the cursor pointing to where it should point on the screen based on the location and orientation of the controller. There have been complaints about lag, which is an entirely different problem. And in both cases it reeks of application lag, not input lag...The Shoot is supposedly laggier than Socom, which itself had framerate problems...further there were other demos which showed input latency (which includes position and orientation obviously) that was much much lower than either of these cases, suggesting the holdup in the shoot and socom isn't on the input end of the system but within the applications themselves. 'Even' Wii games have been known to have variable lag and cursor characteristics depending on the game.

 

[Lonely1]

Lower accuracy can relate to lag, but yes, this are early versions of the games. We can't be sure about one way or another at this time.