That's mostly true but there are definitely changes made to the underlying art which I'll try to explain. When people see differences they aren't wrong - it's just that the reasoning behind them has little to do with hardware power.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Spider-Man graphics downgrade?
- Thread starter ILLtown
- Start date
RPGCrazied
Member
Is digital foundry going to do a video over spiderman? Curious how it runs on standard PS4.
Yes. Tomorrow. Thanks to all this madness, it's a 30 minute 4K video - which means hours and hours of encoding insanity.
MayauMiao
Member
Excuse my language but..fuck yeah!
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Hello, thanks for your time in advance. DeepEnigma and I are under the impression that the there has been a change in lighting, specifically GI. I notice the buildings look much better now, you can see inside the little offices now and there's seemingly more detail.
You mention that there are changes to the underlying art. Are you able to elaborate on the difference in lighting on the hair and the difference in general with Peter's face texture. Is this lighting/GI, texture change, or both?
I'm just a gamer, so my eyes are learning. I've been following you guys forever and I've learned a lot. You do a good thing for games. Thanks.
Last edited:
LostDonkey
Member
I still see a downgrade in those pics. Youre not fooling me.
Sygma
Member
can't wait for the video guys ! love your work
I agree that the lighting has been refined.Hello, thanks for your time in advance. DeepEnigma and I are under the impression that the there has been a change in lighting, specifically GI. I notice the buildings look much better now, you can see inside the little offices now and there's seemingly more detail.
You mention that there are changes to the underlying art. Are you able to elaborate on the difference in lighting on the hair and the difference in general with Peter's face texture. Is this lighting/GI, texture change, or both?
I'm just a gamer, so my eyes are learning. I've been following you guys forever and I've learned a lot. You do a good thing for games. Thanks.
As for the second shot, it's a fool's errand that. The compression absolutely destroys the detail in that shot. They did seemingly change textures around - I'd assume the hair choice was made to reduce alpha to coverage artefacts and aliasing. The hair looks cleaner in the final there.
Those types of comparisons didn't really work well in the video, though, as the older assets are too low quality. The E3 demo has a nice 4K download that still has artefacts but holds up well enough but other media doesn't really. You'll get some nice facial close-ups, though, in the video coming up tomorrow.
xStoyax
Banned
Can you leave me a link where they said this? Seen this comment a few times & tried looking - I believe you, I just wanna check out the source.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Last edited:
FranXico
Member
Thanks for chiming in.
Did you contact Insomniac, and if so, did they confirm which changes are for performance and which are for gameplay/visibility or artistic?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Thanks for the feedback.
I think when you resize some screens you can get a good feel for the changes that have been made to the lighting, and as you described to the face and hair. Especially in Peter's case...
I notice with the new lighting visibility is much better, especially outdoors. However, there's sometimes a propensity for what I can only describe as GI blowout on certain surfaces(forgive me for misnaming the effect). Sometimes resulting in what I would say is maybe too high of HDRI intensity(too white whites, too much darkness indoors, etc). Is this just a tradeoff for better gameplay visibility? Have you noticed that at all in your higher quality footage?
On a side note, it was said you guys have a unique version/build of the game, is there any truth to that? Thanks again for everything!
Last edited:
Nope, it's my independent findings. I'd love to chat with them about it, of course, but that's not so easy! They are quite busy, I'm sure.
I suspect most changes are artistic in nature or designed to make life easier for the artists, basically. There's not much evidence to suggest that performance was an issue at all. Things like this very rarely are.
There's no truth to that (except in very very rare circumstances). That would be the most amazing thing, though, but I can't imagine any publisher allowing that to happen.
What sucks is that photo mode isn't available yet and would have been very useful - their tweet suggests it's a day one, though.
Last edited:
it_wasn't_me
Banned
I think a lot of folks misinterpreted the "it's improved" post, by the way. Certain elements are indeed improved but that's not the whole story. I'll try my best to explain what I think has happened. It should make a lot of sense.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Surely will watch a video tomorrow. When it will be published tomorrow?
Last edited:
xStoyax
Banned
Really appreciate you answering the questions in this thread & i'm looking forward to the video drop tomorrow. I have a slightly unrelated question concerning Digital Foundry.net - I was looking at your patreon for $5 is says "unlimited access to 4K gaming videos to remix & analyze" - and says no DRM. Does that mean you let youtubers use your footage? Not straight uploads, but are they allowed to edit & use it as b roll & give you credit or nah?
Ohhh, that's a good question! I'll have to ask the main man about that one. I think we usually don't mind bits and pieces of videos used, though, with the appropriate credit. That's totally fair in my view, anyways!
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
i just want the game to actually be good
then
i want great graphics
then
i want great graphics
visiblemode
Member
Some changes, might save performance *and* look better. People keep pointing to the hair being a downgrade, but I prefer the new hair. If it saves on processing power: good.
This reminds me of someone who shops based on price, rather than looking at what their needs are and what features they want. Most expensive isn't always best.
This reminds me of someone who shops based on price, rather than looking at what their needs are and what features they want. Most expensive isn't always best.
Adry9
Member
There is no downgrade. AO is affected by sun position. That's logic.
So, when Spiderman jump in shadowed place, suit is downgraded according to your dumb logic :
Dark1x :
I'm the one with the dumb logic but you are the one showing comparisons with different sun position lol
Why not show the screenshot I was referring to? Why ignore that part of my message and then go around insulting people? Don't worry, I'll post the screenshots for the 34890234820 time since you clearly missed them. Here, literally from the OP:
2017:
2018:
Check the shadow of the building behind, SAME sun position. Furthermore, the shadow is less detailed and behind the yellow pipes on the left you can clearly see the cuts in AO.
Are we discussing semantics now? Really?
Also, because previous Sony/Insomniac games weren't downgraded it means that this one can't be? Even with clear evidence? Do you think that AAA devs that downgrade their games before release make a plan of it all along? Come on...
Last edited:
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
The sun is not in the same position. The fire escape railing looks higher in the 2017 version while the 2018 version looks appears to be lower. That tells you the Sun's position has changed. And you're not going to get as many shadows near the pipes when the environment is lighter.
Adry9
Member
What?? It's clearly in the same position, it's just blurrier because of the shadow quality.
I'm done here, this is getting ridiculous.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Comparing blurry ass pics and talking about blurry shadows in some blurry ass YouTube captures.
I cannot wait till tomorrow for at least some clean material to work with.
I cannot wait till tomorrow for at least some clean material to work with.
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
It's clearly not. If you match up the pictures by changing the opacity, then you can see that the shadows do not match up.
And if there's another light source above spider-man's head in the 2017 version, then that's probably what's causing the shadows around the yellow tubes.
Just wait for the video and it's going to show us what's going on, unless you going to say they're wrong before even considering what they have to say.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
What clear evidence? Game isn't downgraded. But keep going, you will eat big pile of crows tomorrow. Some X1 fans can't stop bitching.
EDIT :
Btw. Dark1x had posted here. Why you didn't said to him what you said to us.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I've mentioned that before, but people want to overlook that and compare some blurry ass Vaseline videos as gospel. It's rather juvenile and agenda-driven by some.
Gradly
Member
You also ignore other screenshots and only talking about this one, seriously ONE screenshot is now Enough as an evidence??!!
And Yes because previous games were not this is not. I told you that the game is not that demanding, it's not gonna be a benchmark to compare future games with it graphically, my point is clear
Also this from DF:
Which confirms my point that there is no hardware limitation hence no downgrade
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
They ate heaping servings of Odin's crows with God of War, and I smell a repeat with the Black Crow as well.
Last edited:
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I'm with you that something is different, but it's hard to tell with Youtube source vids. I'm not blind, though. I see differences well beyond slight time of day adjustments...
The TOD on these is very close, but not exact. Probably within an hour, maybe less, if you enhance and check the shadows on the building they aren't exactly in the same place.
Spidey's shadow looks gone. The way his hand is placed, you're going to have a hard time reconciling that there shouldn't be a shadow there. Damage on the ground is gone, chalk texture is blown-out and almost invisible. The wall to the left looks *almost* lower res. I'm looking at that circle damage beneath the rebar that looks like parallax/displacement in the original, then on the new version the depth is gone and more washout.
I'm still guessing it was a GI overhaul, and there was give-and-take.
Adry9
Member
The gap between the edge of the shadow and the window on the left is the same one. It's impossible to compare how high or low it is because there is a downgrade in shadow quality. Come on, if there wasn't the comparison would be easy.
lmao
I own a PS4 Pro dude, but whatever. Sorry for not taking part in your pointless console wars, have fun being miserable to other people on the internet.
The fact that it doesn't look that demanding doesn't mean it isn't. You don't know what's behind the screen and if Insomniac had issues or not with optimization.
This is... nothing?
Last edited:
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Me miserable? LOL. Don't cry tomorrow.
You said it's nothing, pointless when somebody trying to tell you something but your posts have a point. Ok then.
Btw. Dark10x had posted here. Why you didn't try prove to him what you trying prove to us? I'm sure that you have a better tech knowledge than him. Why you didn't quoted him?
Last edited:
Gradly
Member
I'll rephrase and try for the final time
Downgrade = 2 things:
1- Downgrade affects the game as a whole, all textures or shadows or whatever or at least most of them will be downgraded so one screenshot or scene is nothing, show me multiple scenes that hv the same issue and I'll agree to that
2- Downgrade main reason is the hardware limitation, if the hardware is capable then why the hell the need for downgrade
and I quoted the post by DF that shows whatever changes in that scene has nothing to do with hardware power = no HW limitation = no need for downgrade in essence
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Black Cat looks bad. Why you do this insomniac?
Adry9
Member
I'll rephrase and try for the final time
Downgrade = 2 things:
1- Downgrade affects the game as a whole, all textures or shadows or whatever or at least most of them will be downgraded so one screenshot or scene is nothing, show me multiple scenes that hv the same issue and I'll agree to that
2- Downgrade main reason is the hardware limitation, if the hardware is capable then why the hell the need for downgrade
downgrade
verb
past tense: downgraded; past participle: downgraded
ˈdaʊnɡreɪd,daʊnˈɡreɪd/
- reduce to a lower grade, rank, or level of importance.
"some jobs had gradually been downgraded from skilled to semi-skilled"
synonyms:demote, lower, lower in status, reduce/lower in rank, reduce in importance;
antonyms:upgrade, promote, praise, talk up
I don't know dude, I like to go by the dictionary definition when it comes to words.
visiblemode
Member
The entire purpose of this downgrade discussion is to accuse Insomniac of misrepresenting what could be accomplished on PS4 Pro hardware.
If the changes that were made were not due to limitations, then essentially the argument becomes "I'm outraged because Insomniac made changes to the game that they thought would improve its appearance, and I disagree!"
The "they deceived us" part goes away and that's the whole point. If the changes were made using their best judgment how can that even begin to be challenged as unethical?
Personally I'll wait for proper analysis and look forward to trying it for myself. If it plays great and looks great I personally don't care which visual targets they missed and which they surpassed. The end product is my concern.
hollowcupra
Member
From what i've seen from the game up until know (i bought it yesterday from a store selling it early), the game doesn't seem to be downgraded. It seems they just changed some stuff that maybe appearead a bit akward but where ok for an E3 showcase. I mean yeah that roof has less puddles but on the other hand street levels have tons of water. The biggest change seems to be on the uniform and i think on some tesselation effects on the walls (if it's called that). You know holes and stuff that occur when they get damaged.
It wasn't even a great game visually from the E3 videos, not that it's bad. It's not that the PS4 can't handle it. It's just that. A game with that certain visual fidelity, nothing more, nothing less.
I think people are just overeacting a bit, like everytime a PS4 exclusive releases, though this time i can understand that, the comparison screens are day and night.
It wasn't even a great game visually from the E3 videos, not that it's bad. It's not that the PS4 can't handle it. It's just that. A game with that certain visual fidelity, nothing more, nothing less.
I think people are just overeacting a bit, like everytime a PS4 exclusive releases, though this time i can understand that, the comparison screens are day and night.
I see puddles with very good reflections. They were removed. That's not just art there, that's an expensive effect. Downgrade? Yes, in that scene. Unless of course they cleverly faked (I'm all here for the visuals, accurate or faked.)
I don't see why this is a big debate. Games on release almost always have compromises from their initial preview. (Can't recall one not having any.) One scene has some possible downgrades. I'm annoyed by both sides though I think the PS4 fans are much worse, it's almost like it's their pride.
I don't see why this is a big debate. Games on release almost always have compromises from their initial preview. (Can't recall one not having any.) One scene has some possible downgrades. I'm annoyed by both sides though I think the PS4 fans are much worse, it's almost like it's their pride.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
IDK man, shitting on a game and trying your hardest to prove something that you have no interest ever in buying or playing seems pretty daft, lol.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I think this turned into a "what color is the dress?" or "which way are the stairs going?" type situation.
I finally found a decent 4K source for both demos, and they do look very different in a lot of ways aside from puddles. Those puddles looked great from far off, but they look kinda like an oil slick from above. Either way, the texture detail look more refined on the old demo. The lighting looked more "cinematic" in the early trailer, more "gamey" in the new. I like the new look just fine, the game looks great, but that's a lot more than a ToD change, lol.
Some better 4K comparisons to hold over until DF gets a look at it...
---
Last edited:
thelastword
Banned
They never learn.....Cue every PS4 exclusive since launch, it never stops.....You don't doubt great graphics from a Sony exclusive, it's science at this point.....
It's strange too because at least 99% of Xfans are still rocking the XBOX-ONE/S, they were behind the eight ball for 4 years straight since this gen started and defended everything from 720p to 900p to less effects and lower framerates on multi's and generally lower tier graphics on their exclusives.
I mean, these guys could hardly tell the difference between 900p and 1080p. Funny too, because I've heard choice statements like "best looking 720p game" from guys like Statham for the XBOX ONE before the exodus. So if Xfans are in this thread calling out downgrade and are such graphics nuts, I wonder how they coped with XBOX-ONE/S all this time, were they not being honest with us before?.... I mean, they could not tell the diference between 720 to 900 to 1080p, better AO and effects and framerate, but now their eyes seems to be those of eagles????
Last edited:
MayauMiao
Member
So even IF there is a slight downgrade, then what?
Nothing will happen.
Gamers will move on, those who like the game will continue to buy it. I don't think puddles is going to stop gamers from truly enjoying Spider-Man game as a whole.
Right now I'm not buying this game and decided to wait until a GOTY edition comes out no thanks to Sony's blunder with the DLCs.
Nothing will happen.
Gamers will move on, those who like the game will continue to buy it. I don't think puddles is going to stop gamers from truly enjoying Spider-Man game as a whole.
Right now I'm not buying this game and decided to wait until a GOTY edition comes out no thanks to Sony's blunder with the DLCs.
thelastword
Banned
OTOH
I'm not Insomniac's biggest fan of late. I think they should favor IQ a bit more in their games. I think the last Ratchet game could have looked much better with better AA, AF and background detail. I'm also not convinced with their T.I implementations, thought it was much better done in SOTC remake. So I hope any tech video tomorrow gives a breakdown on the interpolation method and how sound it is. AA used and any noise or image breakup that may exist. I think I noticed some visible sharp to blurrier projections or vice versa (due to T.I) on very early Spiderman footage, but I've not seen too much high quality footage since then.
Still, there are some discrepancies in some of the screens here. The last two shots by CrustyBritches just above my other post, suggests water or a liquid drying off a bit more in the second screen, also a more dusty floor in the second screen grab. The first screen looks sharper for sure, so have they added some graphcial effects in the latter? SSS or perhaps other blur inducing effects?...plus some lighting changes of course, or is this PS4 vs PRO? They're also all compressed images off a video, so not the best way to judge anyway....So I hope the tech outlets give us a thorough analysis of the general tech of the game, PS4 vs PRO etc... tomorrow. I hope NXGAMER has something cooking for this one tbh....
I'm not Insomniac's biggest fan of late. I think they should favor IQ a bit more in their games. I think the last Ratchet game could have looked much better with better AA, AF and background detail. I'm also not convinced with their T.I implementations, thought it was much better done in SOTC remake. So I hope any tech video tomorrow gives a breakdown on the interpolation method and how sound it is. AA used and any noise or image breakup that may exist. I think I noticed some visible sharp to blurrier projections or vice versa (due to T.I) on very early Spiderman footage, but I've not seen too much high quality footage since then.
Still, there are some discrepancies in some of the screens here. The last two shots by CrustyBritches just above my other post, suggests water or a liquid drying off a bit more in the second screen, also a more dusty floor in the second screen grab. The first screen looks sharper for sure, so have they added some graphcial effects in the latter? SSS or perhaps other blur inducing effects?...plus some lighting changes of course, or is this PS4 vs PRO? They're also all compressed images off a video, so not the best way to judge anyway....So I hope the tech outlets give us a thorough analysis of the general tech of the game, PS4 vs PRO etc... tomorrow. I hope NXGAMER has something cooking for this one tbh....
Last edited:
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
In general, I think the new look offers better visibility than the old look. It's hard to say what's being affected by the change in lighting. There's a new lighting scheme being used from the looks of it. Visibility outdoors is much better.
dark10x was nice enough to share his thoughts above: Change in lighting(refined), seemingly different textures, hair looks different to possibly have better alpha-to-coverage. Also said I needed better shots and there was a decent 4K vid. I found 2 and posted some shots, they're better by far than what's in the OP:
1200x675 screengrab in OP
3840x2160 framedump from Gamersyde 4K vid...
---
I do think there was a change in lighting and there are trade-offs. Like the beard and chain link fencing look better in the new shots, while old shots seem to have better parallax/displacement maps. There's a total possibility that the new lighting just causes a major wash out, that's why AO and shadows seem diminished. Could be a tradeoff for better overall look and gameplay visibility?
There's just a nice blue-ish, cinematic look to the old build. Especially indoors. I can see where people would like that. They shouldn't be disappointed, though. The actual game looks insane, beautiful, inspiring. This is just nerd talk. The DF era, so to say.
