Anakin turning to the light side doesn necessarily mean the darkness that surrounded Darth Vader disappears. Perhaps their soul split in two after death, Anakin being brought back to his self and the dark remnants of Vader festering around and remaining in the echoes he left. But this is all just speculation. I also sound like a bad fan fiction author now lol.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up
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LookAtMeGo
Member
Hayden returning as Vader clone.
Hayden was specifically directed by George to be petulant and whiney and he would beg George to let him try to be more mature, but George wouldn't let him do it until Episode III. I can't find the quote right now but I've posted it here before - there was an interview where Lucas directly stated this to be the case. Hayden signed on wanting to play young Darth Vader, like anyone else would, but Lucas told him "No, you have to be a whiney teenager first, then you'll get to play Darth Vader."
That said, I feel like Anakin's ghost has to show up at some point. It doesn't make sense if he doesn't. It already kind of doesn't make sense. Kylo Ren should be able to just go talk to Anakin's ghost. They'll have to come up with some sort of reason why he became obsessed with Darth Vader when he could literally just go talk to Anakin Skywalker for the pre-TFA time period, unless either a.) he for some reason was not able to talk to Anakin or b.) idolizes Vader and hates Anakin and treats them as separate entities.
The latter wouldn't surprise me. The TFA novelization seems to imply something like that actually, because Snoke and Kylo have a dialogue about the causes of the fall of the Empire and Kylo explicitly knows that Vader turned on Palpatine. Snoke says something to the effect of "It wasn't strategy or tactics that brought down the Empire - you know what the truth is" and Kylo responds "Sentiment." Snoke then proceeds to talk about how Vader lived an exemplary life that was marred at the end by an unfortunate emotional turn to weakness, and that Kylo will have to overcome things like this for the good of the First Order. This is foreshadowing for Han, obviously. But anyway, if Kylo thinks of Vader and Anakin as separate beings, like how he told Han that he "destroyed" Ben Solo, then he might not want to talk to Ghost Hayden.
That said, I feel like Anakin's ghost has to show up at some point. It doesn't make sense if he doesn't. It already kind of doesn't make sense. Kylo Ren should be able to just go talk to Anakin's ghost. They'll have to come up with some sort of reason why he became obsessed with Darth Vader when he could literally just go talk to Anakin Skywalker for the pre-TFA time period, unless either a.) he for some reason was not able to talk to Anakin or b.) idolizes Vader and hates Anakin and treats them as separate entities.
The latter wouldn't surprise me. The TFA novelization seems to imply something like that actually, because Snoke and Kylo have a dialogue about the causes of the fall of the Empire and Kylo explicitly knows that Vader turned on Palpatine. Snoke says something to the effect of "It wasn't strategy or tactics that brought down the Empire - you know what the truth is" and Kylo responds "Sentiment." Snoke then proceeds to talk about how Vader lived an exemplary life that was marred at the end by an unfortunate emotional turn to weakness, and that Kylo will have to overcome things like this for the good of the First Order. This is foreshadowing for Han, obviously. But anyway, if Kylo thinks of Vader and Anakin as separate beings, like how he told Han that he "destroyed" Ben Solo, then he might not want to talk to Ghost Hayden.
You know as a strong supporter of Finn.After thinking back after watching the movie and hearing people go so far in thinking that he is a token black guy, is so false.
He was charming and a breath of fresh air to star wars. In fact he has the most exciting arc because we dont know where ep 8 is going to take him. While Rey's arc is very familiar and kinda boring(Heros journey) Finn's is unpredictable and can go so many different routes.
I think because of black exploitation in mega movies like this have given little care to black people, we still have an after taste from them. I still am mad that he was just a red herring for Rey, but I feel as black people, we may get the character we want out of Finn. We just need to wait until after this SAGA is over to review
He was charming and a breath of fresh air to star wars. In fact he has the most exciting arc because we dont know where ep 8 is going to take him. While Rey's arc is very familiar and kinda boring(Heros journey) Finn's is unpredictable and can go so many different routes.
I think because of black exploitation in mega movies like this have given little care to black people, we still have an after taste from them. I still am mad that he was just a red herring for Rey, but I feel as black people, we may get the character we want out of Finn. We just need to wait until after this SAGA is over to review
I watch them all yearly. I suspect I'll be watching them again and again and again until 8.
VistraNorrez
Member
For the Snoke equals Plagueis people. An early draft of RotJ included Obi wan and Yoda taking corporeal form to help Luke in his fight with Vader. Maybe the story division is combining that idea with Plagueis being able to cheat death.
Messypandas
Member
I'm convinced Vaders apparition to Kylo would have been a mind manipulation by Snoke. Snoke is probably feeding his fanboying of his grandfather.
Finn is largely interesting due to him being an anti-Kylo Ren. I mean, so far it's almost as though he was set up to be Ren's adversary more than Rey.
maquiladora
Member
The lighting during the Han/Ben scene is amazing.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
He just stopped it like he would with any physical object.
Someone in the last thread compared that scene to church. I don't think force ghosts had anything to do with it.
Essentially he was praying. He was looking for inspiration in something that wasn't there.
Even then, Lucas kept him on a tight leash with his nonsense script in RotS.
I'm looking forward to seeing that explained as well. It looked cool but made no F'n sense and nothing lore wise (old Eu, new EU, Lucas notes, etc) suggest that's how the force powers work. I don't think that's how physics works either. I didn't even have to wait until the scene was done to call BS on that.
Yeah, but it was still a visible improvement. Especially in the first act. Hayden abruptly possessed a modicum of charisma. It is actually a bit of a shock.
Why not? The force is used to trick people's minds. Is it so hard to believe he can stop an energy blast?
If Snoke is Plagueis, the best way to explain his resurrection is the Voldemort route. The canon kinda supports it
a) Gets his physical body destroyed or severely wounded, but like Anakin and Maul he uses anger and hate to cling to life in an extremely weakened body
b) similat to Maul his sanity takes a hit or maybe his body is far too destroyed to be quickly repaired
c) He starts using what little power he has left on his midichlorians, they start healing and rebuilding his body
d) During this time he watches his apprentices feats, and vows to take it all for himself
e) 35 years later his new body is ready and Luke Skywalker was kind enough to destroy his former apprentice. All that's left is to destroy Luke Skywalker.
a) Gets his physical body destroyed or severely wounded, but like Anakin and Maul he uses anger and hate to cling to life in an extremely weakened body
b) similat to Maul his sanity takes a hit or maybe his body is far too destroyed to be quickly repaired
c) He starts using what little power he has left on his midichlorians, they start healing and rebuilding his body
d) During this time he watches his apprentices feats, and vows to take it all for himself
e) 35 years later his new body is ready and Luke Skywalker was kind enough to destroy his former apprentice. All that's left is to destroy Luke Skywalker.
Absolutely. It's why I'm almost interested in seeing him take on Vader again with a competent writer/director.
The force can be used to deflect blaster shots but not stop them?
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Either that or only users of the Light side can communicate with Force ghost. I think even Leia couldn't see the ghosts at the end of ROTJ.
Why? It's all just stuff to be manipulated by the Force. As long as they don't go overboard with Force storms and crushing stars and whatever other wacky stuff the EU did, I don't think it will be a problem.
Digital-Hero
Member
Yes, and it changes as the sun gets drained by Starkiller. Nice touch.
broncobuster
Banned
The lasers have mass. Stopping it is no different than other forms of force telekinesis.
TheOctodad
Member
It really doesn't need much explanation. He used the force. The force defies physics all the time.
I'm sure they would have done effects like this in the OT if they had the effects and CGI we have today.
Lastly, we don't really see much need to do that in the OT. Luke is too new. Vader doesn't show off, he just utilizes it for effectiveness. Kylo is trying to showboat for his own confidence and to prove to those around him that he is powerful.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
My suggestion was basically just have Anakin's ghost being good and overseeing Luke's academy.
but Kylo sees Vader and all of Anakin's teachings while the same have a dark edge coming from Vader that grows from there.
Basically Ben has a small bit of jealousy or something which clouds his vision and twists what he sees getting worse and worse as he starts to crave power, recognition, etc.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
It's not just the blast, he stops everything in the path of the target, freezing Poe too. Same way a force push or pull, but holding everything in place.
I don't see Snoke being Plagueis, for a big logic reason as well as a big gut-feeling reason.
Logic: tied to the prequel era; Disney won't want to go down that route even in passing.
Gut feeling: if Snoke is something new, his kind can be used as an invasion force or something equally large in scale in post-IX films.
Logic: tied to the prequel era; Disney won't want to go down that route even in passing.
Gut feeling: if Snoke is something new, his kind can be used as an invasion force or something equally large in scale in post-IX films.
Messypandas
Member
We need a "Force - I ain't gotta explain shit" gif already.
I am so far pleased with the way Finn turned out but I am apprehensive and not exactly appreciative of the fact he was a red herring for Rey.
The prospect of a black Jedi in a leading role is just too good to be dangled in front of black people and then whisked away. Finn doesn't need to be a Jedi to be a good character, but neither does Rey, and yet I want them both to be one. I want them both to be powerful in the Force and become Jedi.
I have a sneaking suspicion however that Finn will be an obstacle to Rey's progress. I have a feeling Luke has changed since losing his students and won't teach Rey unless she let's go of her attachments. Finn could be the attachment she finds most difficult to let ago, sorta like Aang with Katara when Guru Pathik told him he had to let go to enter the Avatar State. There hasn't been much to suggest that Rey has feelings for Finn, but at the very least they are very close.
Good point.
I don't see it happening because I don't see Disney approving anything so rooted in the prequel era as a major factor in one of the mainline movies, but on a personal level I'd be very intrigued if I'm wrong and it should come to pass.
TheOctodad
Member
The canon Clone Wars cartoon states that only light siders can see ghosts. Additionally, we don't know how long the ghost last. After 30+ years maybe they moved on? Maybe it's only a short-term thing.
I know the force is pretty much "magic" but there should and usually is some rules in place. It's not like it was a physical bullet or anything. Yeah blaster can be deflected but that's it deflected not just stopped in the air in the pass. Even if you look at the PT and not just the OT for use of force powers we don't see anything like that. I know people like to hate on the PT and the Clone Wars but let's not when it comes to force powers okay.
I was disappointed in the story, it's literally just the original Star Wars with a new face. The redeeming factor for me were the characters. I thought the interactions between the new characters were interesting and funny. The shittiest part was with Han Solo, it was such a predictable scene that it didn't effect me at all when it happened. The pacing was too fast at times as well. I just wanted a little more time to absorb the setting and plot. It would've helped the movie if it were 30 minutes longer.
It was enjoyable to watch though, mainly because of the characters. Hopefully they can improve on the next one, but I feel like they won't with Disney wanting to push these out as fast as possible.
It was enjoyable to watch though, mainly because of the characters. Hopefully they can improve on the next one, but I feel like they won't with Disney wanting to push these out as fast as possible.
Leia wouldn't have been able to see a Force ghost yet because she wasn't strong enough. Force ghosts only appear to those who have had enough training to be able to perceive them (this was mentioned in one of the canon young adult novelizations for the OT). I guess that's a possibility though, we don't fully know the "rules" of Force ghosts yet since the reboot. It used to be Force ghosts were all over the place, but now only a specific few have achieved it, so who's to say that a dark sider could or could not see them? Of course, there was a time when Ben wasn't with the dark side...
NumberThree
Member
"As long as there is light, there is hope"
Too bad for Han the star dies during the scene..
The Force is the all encompassing power of the galaxy. There are no limitations to what it can do. The only limitations are on those who use it.
If you want to go down the physic route, force users should not be able to deflect laser blasts due to the speed of light, even forced enhanced, their reflexes would not be fast enough.
It's space magic it has always been space magic.
Deflecting a blaster bolt is just using the force to alter its trajectory. Ren went one step further by stopping it entirely. It's not that weird.
Patrick Bateman
Member
In my opinion it fit pretty good. He's a young heathead willing to do whatever it takes to achieve his goal. It felt like those deluted young followers of facism.
Ether_Snake
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Yeah ok pal, Vader deflected one with his hand. Can't believe people get worked up over this.
It's unfortunate but that wouldn't surprise me. It really did feel like they cut out most of the exposition in this movie. Perhaps in an attempt to avoid the complaints the prequels received regarding that stuff.
Which might have been well deserved with these movies because of bad writing but the way they went about it in TFA didn't work for me. I like exposition, it just has to be well written.
VistraNorrez
Member
They mentioned a Clone Army in this film and had Ewan voice Obi-wan for a line. I'd also say Kylo's hair and the new scar on his face are also reminiscent of Anakin in RotS.
gutter_trash
Banned
to me, Star Wars is exclusively a movie experience. I dismiss all the cartoons/.
Saucycarpdog
Member
When I find out that Finn wasn't going to be the jedi I assumed he would fill the Han Solo role of being a non-force using bad ass.
TheOctodad
Member
The rules of something like the force could easily be changed or broken based on a users competency and understanding.
Just like how "science" has changed what can be done over time. Just because something seems to "break the rules" doesn't mean it does. Maybe we just don't understand it fully.
It seems like a pointless thing to get caught up in.
Disney doesn't dictate the story in Star Wars, Lucasfilm is in control of that. And Lucasfilm has been busy tying together the PT and OT; they clearly don't have a problem with PT material in all the other canon material. However, they give the movie creators free reign to do whatever they want, so Snoke's backstory is up to JJ/Rian/Colin.
WadiumArcadium
Member
You may well do. It still applies though.
Not worked up over it at all myself. I thought looked cool but at the same thing made no sense when I tried to reason it out. End of story.
Kinda interesting. In a fight deflecting would be more useful (might hit the enemy). while stopping it is just showing off.
TheOctodad
Member
That's great for you. The answer to your question still lies within the external canon though.
So you can speculate, but the answer exist regardless.
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