Yes. Her sins are too great for a happy ending. Waving off every bad thing she did as being due to mind control or w/e is wholly unsatisfying.
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//: StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void |OT| My Life For Aiur
- Thread starter Corran Horn
- Start date
Proelite
Member
He starts to quote popular action movie plots after before or after first Xelnaga temple mission if you click on him.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Yeah they completely missed the boat on a Kerrigan redemption story if they actually wanted to do it Brood Wars was the perfect time to do, they in fact lampshaded this in the game because she used this manipulate every single motherfucker she could on it. The Protoss certainly wouldn't have worked with her if they didn't believe in the possibility she had changed.
She burned those brides spectacularly and put an F you on top of them. It's what made the BW storyline great. Se connived and usurped her way to victory, after learning the lessons of the ass kicking she got from Tassadar.
Another huge annoyance with the shift in tone for Starcraft II is that in Starcraft, there wasn't really "good" and "evil so much as there was nature, there was man, and there was ambition. The bad things which happened were a consequence of ambitious people trying to take advantage of a bad situation in the frontiers of space. The Terrans had a really interesting founding history as an abandoned segment of humanity in deep space. The Zerg were a natural enemy for other species, and operated on instinct as part of the hive. Self-preservation and expansion were their goals in an animalistic way. The Protoss valued tradition and honor above all else, often blinding them to better solutions.
Kerrigan wasn't some noble and honorable heroine doing what she thought was best for the world. She was a trained elite assassin who was used to black ops and her training likely already made her less than human on an emotional level. After she was betrayed, she simply lost all restrains in terms of loyalty and the weapon they created was now used against them.
This is the Starcraft I remember, but the Starcraft II we got is basically one which takes all the same pieces and rearranges them such that there is clearly "good" and "evil" in the natural order of things, and the "good" people band together against the "evil" who are all under the influence of the "dark god". It's shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
Kerrigan wasn't some noble and honorable heroine doing what she thought was best for the world. She was a trained elite assassin who was used to black ops and her training likely already made her less than human on an emotional level. After she was betrayed, she simply lost all restrains in terms of loyalty and the weapon they created was now used against them.
This is the Starcraft I remember, but the Starcraft II we got is basically one which takes all the same pieces and rearranges them such that there is clearly "good" and "evil" in the natural order of things, and the "good" people band together against the "evil" who are all under the influence of the "dark god". It's shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
Thats why I hold Brood War in such high regard. Kerrigan played almost all the factions perfectly and she got what she wanted in the end: destroy the UED, cripple Mengsk and take complete control of the Zerg Swarm.
Hell, she manipulated the Protoss not once but twice. Although they were different factions (Artanis/Zeratul and Fenix).
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I mean this is Metzen in general. These blizzard franchises were so unique back in the day because in Warcraft and Starcraft there wasn't a clear good side and bad side like you mention. The games were designed so you would play each side of the fight and the stories showed that there were good and bad guys in each of the factions.
In Starcraft the main appeal of the Zerg was that you got to play an RTS game as a faction that had no sense of morality, you were simply beasts looking to expand your swarm. And when The Queen of Blades was introduced people fucking loved Brood War because you got to play as a conniving evil mastermind that was just out to fuck everyone else.
At some point this became unacceptable to Metzen. Just like he retconned the Orcs to be tragic figures corrupted by dark forces, he did the exact same fucking thing with the Zerg. Apparently it's just not okay to play as a faction that is not out to save the universe or some shit. Starcraft wasn't even a "save the universe" type story but Metzen basically can't write anything else at this point.
BigWeather
Member
How is the CE? I was disappointed with the shift from art book to that technical manual or whatever it is called so for the first time since WC3 I skipped on the CE. Thinking maybe I'll pick one up still -- how is the technical manual? As cool as the art books have been?
JohnOfMars
Banned
I like your framing on Starcraft I. It's the one I remember. I was 15 when it came out and I still remember pouring over the manual and reading all the lore that described every unit and every faction. I wish the modern Blizz games had manuals like that.
SC1 also felt a lot more political and well, bigger. It was Humanity, not just Raynor, defending themselves from the Zerg while the Protoss were trying to eradicate impurities.
SC2 feels like a cast of 3-4 big characters that are having wacky adventures, but also have big armies at their command until it comes time to move the story along. They made it into a very personal story, when Metzen's writing can't handle that.
Tertullian
Member
Oh man oh man these story impressions. Brutal. I'm still waiting to buy the game (hopefully at a significant discount), but I am preparing myself for some truly rancid nonsense.
vainglorious
Member
The Amon stuff shits it up even further though, going way beyond the good and evil trope bullshit. Instead of the Zerg being an instinctual, animalistic species solely focused on its expansion, evolution, and self-preservation the Amon shit completely neuters the Overmind and the Swarm. The Overmind became a benevolent entity who "loved his Zerg" and wanted "his Zerg to be free" but could not overcome Amon's overriding directive to hunt the Protoss and BLAHBLAHBLAH.
Uuuuuuuuuuugggghhhh.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Seriously it's so bad. Absolutely criminal what was done to the Zerg.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Yeah StarCraft was always far more influenced by sci fi horror (Aliens), and popular war movies (Apocalypse now), than generic "epic" good evil and redemption storylines popular in action movies and games.
I mean the Brood wars cinematic really encapsulated it, you have the planet bound marines fighting for survival against the unrelenting fury of the zerg, given hope by the appearance of a battle cruiser commanded by two ambitious and power hungry men, who abandon them to their inevitable fate. You always the sense and atmosphere that at it's base level that universe was a really, really awful place to exist in even without the war each race had significant problems within it outside of ironically the zerg, the closest to being a good faction were extremely limited in power, influence and got their ass kicked often (it was literally Jimmy and the Protoss that believed in Tassadar who had just lost their homeworld and even on Shakuras had significant problems with the Zerg. That was it, a rogue and greatly weakened almost homeless alien race.
Remember when playing a Zerg campaign meant playing as off-brand Xenomorphs who just wanted to fuck the nasty humans up who were taking up room on planets where creep could be flowing freely instead?
They couldn't even let us have that. Instead the Zerg campaign in SC2 was about Kerrigan and her cute cuddly Zerg army banding together to help her Terran and Protoss friends in their time of great need to fight the big bad evil dark god's influence.
L.O.L.
T_T
They couldn't even let us have that. Instead the Zerg campaign in SC2 was about Kerrigan and her cute cuddly Zerg army banding together to help her Terran and Protoss friends in their time of great need to fight the big bad evil dark god's influence.
L.O.L.
T_T
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I think anyone here that loved Brood War probably could have written a better story for the Zerg in SC2. It is absolutely one of the worst stories I've ever played in a high profile game.
WOL wasn't great and LOTV is more of the same Saturday morning cartoon shit, but holy goddamn Heart of the Swarm was just such a trainwreck of epic proportions.
WOL wasn't great and LOTV is more of the same Saturday morning cartoon shit, but holy goddamn Heart of the Swarm was just such a trainwreck of epic proportions.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
What they did to the zerg was painful, they pulled out every single retcon in the book, to make them "not evil", when they quite blatantly were. I was seriously pissed off in WoL when it was believed Tassadar had survived (fuck that what the point in the phrase En Taro Tassadar), and the Overmind was good guy all along (fuck that even more). I that point I had literally given up all hope on the franchise.
At the end of the day, if you filed off the names, it'd sound like the plot to literally any modern Blizzard story, and in fact, would probably be less shit (at least in a sense), because they didn't compromise an entire cast of existing, better characters to kludge them into ill-fitting roles to fill in the narrative laid out for them. SC2 takes pains to unmake the authority and the ambition of Kerrigan, turns Zeratul into a warlock who can't communicate in real sounding words, and bleaches Raynor of almost any modicum of the personality and pragmatism he showed in the first game. SC2 is full of magic bullshit that StarCraft minimized, and rarely made central. Prophecies and destiny are concepts that had no place in the first game, yet suddenly there's shitloads of them about this guy who was secretly the reason for everything all along.
StarCraft was a story about consequences, I think. Almost every campaign section had you dealing with the consequences of the last one, and the major actors were clear, and rarely completely symmetrical. It was sort of like a closed circle (or trifecta, I guess), and the major players taking action affected the other two in some way.
Amon just broke all that. Depressing.
StarCraft was a story about consequences, I think. Almost every campaign section had you dealing with the consequences of the last one, and the major actors were clear, and rarely completely symmetrical. It was sort of like a closed circle (or trifecta, I guess), and the major players taking action affected the other two in some way.
Amon just broke all that. Depressing.
I literally said 'fuck this' when it tried peddling that 'secretly a good guy' shit in my face. The fucking audacity to make the shapeless brain who wants to eat everyone into a tragic hero.
vainglorious
Member
You have to admit it though, Kerrigan and her pet Zergling really is cute though.
Awwwhhh. So cute.
SORRY GUYS AMON'S INFLUENCE GOT ME THERE FOR A SECOND.
Better yet, a Baneling as a pet. Those are really cute.
Hug it a bit too strongly and it is a mess.
vainglorious
Member
Blizzard should just take the Carbot animation skin mod that's being worked on and replace the whole fucking game with it. Then the tone of the story and gameplay of the game will finally sync up.
I think they even said at last Blizzcon that they kinda want to bring Leah back. Redeem her soul from Diablo, if you will.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Yeah, I have to admit it's poor writing at best. But then pretty much all of Blizzard's overarcing stories over the past 8 years or so have been pretty crappy, especially when compared to their older work like Warcraft 1-3, Diablo 1 & 2, and Starcraft 1.
I think Metzen's problem is he doesn't really understand what made the older Blizzard storylines so awesome, because he seems stuck in a generic good vs evil rut, completely unwilling (or unable?) to write anything deeper and more meaningful than black and white stories. But, they are making money so I don't see it changing anytime soon.
Thankfully even though Blizzard's writing has fallen by the wayside their game design, art, and development skills are better than ever.
They Better Fucking Not!!!!! God I hope they just don't go there.....
vainglorious
Member
I actually really liked the Leahblo twist - as a concept. On paper it's awesome. Demon's having no concept of sex or gender is actually pretty forward thinking (for Blizzard anyway). And Prime Evil Diablo has an amazing design.
But the delivery of that concept was just completely flubbed. And Leah doesn't need to come back. The hosts before her didn't get or need redemption so why does she? She should just stay a ghost that torments and haunts the fuck out of the player character.
I personally liked the overmind retcon stuff
For me his actions were what he wanted to do anyway but being forced to do it regardless pissed him off because as a big brain he wants to be master of his actions and decided to find a loophole to screw with his puppetmaster. Something I would expect from something like him.
For me his actions were what he wanted to do anyway but being forced to do it regardless pissed him off because as a big brain he wants to be master of his actions and decided to find a loophole to screw with his puppetmaster. Something I would expect from something like him.
vainglorious
Member
I personally liked the overmind retcon stuff
For me his actions were what he wanted to do anyway but being forced to do it regardless pissed him off because as a big brain he wants to be master of his actions and decided to find a loophole to screw with his puppetmaster. Something I would expect from something like him.
EDIT -
Just in case you couldn't tell with a Kristen Wiig and Will Ferrell gif - I'm totally kidding.
Metzen got old and had kids and now everything is a morality play. Don't let age make you soft, boys!Yeah, I have to admit it's poor writing at best. But then pretty much all of Blizzard's overarcing stories over the past 8 years or so have been pretty crappy, especially when compared to their older work like Warcraft 1-3, Diablo 1 & 2, and Starcraft 1.
I think Metzen's problem is he doesn't really understand what made the older Blizzard storylines so awesome, because he seems stuck in a generic good vs evil rut, completely unwilling (or unable?) to write anything deeper and more meaningful than black and white stories. But, they are making money so I don't see it changing anytime soon.
Thankfully even though Blizzard's writing has fallen by the wayside their game design, art, and development skills are better than ever.
They Better Fucking Not!!!!! God I hope they just don't go there.....
Pai Pai Master
Banned
That makes a ton of sense now.
So basically Metzen is every alternative rock group I grew up with in the 90s
So basically Metzen is every alternative rock group I grew up with in the 90s
vainglorious
Member
But he's a cool dad.
You can tell because he wears earrings.
You can tell because he wears earrings.
Even in animal/insect realm, the parent try to protect their babies, I don't see anything wrong with that.
Also it makes sense, the Zergs were once free and some of them are still free and those who are free have no grudge against the Protos or other races. If it wasn't for Amon, I doubt they would've left their planet and try to conquer the galaxy.
Those beasts were forced to go to war.
I've said it before but Metzen is basically the george lucas of video games. He was great back when he was young and starting out because he had plenty of people to work with, bounce ideas off of, get told "no that's stupid" by, etc. Now hes so high up in the company and in charge of so many things that no one is willing to tell him no.
I think another part is he may just be tired of writing some of these stories (why they aren't being handed off to other writers if thats the case is beyond me). Seeing him talk about the lore and story of Overwatch at Blizzcon? He seemed to have that passion that I don't think I've seen him have when talking about the other game's stories in a while. It probably helps that its a new world and story to play around with and create, but yeah.
They Better Fucking Not!!!!! God I hope they just don't go there.....
Done well, I wouldn't mind it too much. She got her soul eaten by Diablo and freeing tormented souls happens all the time in Diablo. But I wouldn't trust them to pull it off.
vainglorious
Member
Yes, it makes complete sense in regards to the retcon. But we're not arguing against the logic that the retcon uses to support itself. We're arguing against the need for the retcon to have taken place at all.
There was no need for Amon.
There was no need to alter the original purpose and nature of the Zerg.
The Zerg was PERFECTLY FINE just being the Zerg we saw in SC1 and Broodwar.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yup, definitely a case of less is more. Conceptually it's fine, but they just did the exact same thing pretty much with the Orcs in Warcraft and the way it played out in HOTS was just so offensively mind-numbingly dumb. The Zerg were fine as dumb space monsters that just wanted to take over planets and breed more. They were a million times cooler and more interesting as a species, and Kerrigan was a better character when she was plotting the fall of her enemies for her own gain, not to save the universe from Amon.
I don't know what the hell they were going for with the bullshit that was retconned in SC2.
I don't know what the hell they were going for with the bullshit that was retconned in SC2.
Unless we find out that Overwatch was disbanded by the machinations of some elder being puppeteerring from the shadows who was also the one who caused the robots to revolt in the omnic crisis - not yet.
vainglorious
Member
CAREFUL. Who knows if anyone from Blizzard is reading this.
Some of the BS they were spouting at blizzcon that they're trying to salvage from Titan as 'lore' was pretty horrific. I don't know why they're bothering tbh.
All the heroes will need to unite against an ancient evil. Just you wait.
Robot uprising threaten to destroy everything.
Robots convert a hero into a cyborg.
Cyborg kills lots of people.
Cyborg is prophesied to save human race from evil mastermind behind the Robot uprising.
#JustMetzenThings
Orochinagis
Member
Normal is too easy, Hard is too hard, dammit.
Building up the alliance guys to fight the horde guys, then a super bad guy will appear and everyone will unite to fight the great evil and fight each other again after that until another great evill appear. BTW Widowmaker was a good girl all this time just misunderstood into killing people and steal stuff
Building up the alliance guys to fight the horde guys, then a super bad guy will appear and everyone will unite to fight the great evil and fight each other again after that until another great evill appear. BTW Widowmaker was a good girl all this time just misunderstood into killing people and steal stuff
Pattycakes
Banned
I avoided most of the thread to not see spoilers. Is the expansion work picking up for the story? I've played through the first two campaigns. I'm not really big or good at the multiplayer.
CoconutTank
Member
When I was able to choose the Dark Templar style and had to choose between omnislash and ressurection, it seemed like omnislash was the more pragmatic ability.
"Man that multi jump and slash ability is so strong. I won't remember to use it all the time but I think I can still get better mileage out of manually using that over ressurection."
Then it turns out that DT omnislash is on autocast.
Woooooooooooooooow.
For ladder I'm going to somehow optimize a build for mass tank/liberator(/viking). If you ever see me in 1v1, congrats on the free win.
"Man that multi jump and slash ability is so strong. I won't remember to use it all the time but I think I can still get better mileage out of manually using that over ressurection."
Then it turns out that DT omnislash is on autocast.
Woooooooooooooooow.
Also yes the story is pretty not good at this time, but I jumped into the campaign already knowing that.
I didn't completely spoil myself on the epilogue, but I peeked at the first line of Enter the Dragon Punch's red spoilers and was already done.
For ladder I'm going to somehow optimize a build for mass tank/liberator(/viking). If you ever see me in 1v1, congrats on the free win.
vainglorious
Member
The mission design is fine, although their inability to iterate on a game design that's 5 years old at this point is beginning to show. Diminishing returns and all that.
The self contained story from mission to mission is decent, but the overarching narrative that ends the trilogy is utter dogshit.
the protoss part of the campaign is cool, I enjoyed the various factions and dialog. Of course Amon shit is bad, but apparently most of the complaints are related to the epilogue part of the campaign (where I'm at, I'll be sure to laugh in a moment).
Interfectum
Member
Pattycakes
Banned
That's disappointing. I was hoping to some kind of good ending overarching narrative. Well, I think I am going to take a pass on this one then and wait for a price drop first. Thanks!