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[Raging Spaniard]

Its so weird, this gem system pisses me off for a lot of reasons and .. at the same time, I kind of get it.

On the positive side, I see this as Capcom "trying shit out" They're going with some design decisions that could only be made in a game that is meant to be a bit of a party game. If this was Street Fighter V I don't think they would be trying as many of these crazy features ... but since this is an off shoot kind of game then yeah, fuck it, try new stuff and see whats popular (Pandora, gems, gang rape mode, etc, etc) Hell the gem system could even revolutionize the tournament scene ... and if it doesn't? it actually doesn't matter because this game is kind of a new thing. Theres no actual brand to damage if it fails, so its all Milhouse for Capcom.

On the negative side, the precedent that could be set with DLC gems affecting gameplay could be very negative and I'm just getting confused by ll the gameplay options. They say more options is a good thing, but this approach is starting to make it really hard to keep up.

 

[SamVimes]

DLC gems are bullshit but come on, i'm not an expert on Arcana Heart but isn't there a high degree of customization too?

 

[Degen]

you pick one already-unlocked assist

 

[TGMIII]

DLC gems are bullshit but come on, i'm not an expert on Arcana Heart but isn't there a high degree of customization too?

It's not really customization and all of the arcana's are in the game, you don't have to unlock any they're just there ready to go. Gems are COMPLETELY different.

 

[vocab]

lol DLC gems. Great fucking business model. I'm gonna wait and see when this comes out. It sounds like a mess.

 

[Chindogg]

But the autoblock is a waste. It blocks for someone who's not holding block. That's a waste of a gem. Autotech is situational and time based. Those are just for beginners and not something a tournament player will use. Everything else like the defense, offence, etc. are more practical.

Autoblock is a waste? Say that to someone to baits the tech and punishes accordingly. Or someone who goes into an unblockable setup. Autoguard is absurd.

There are just way too many negatives involving gems for it to actually be viable in tournaments. There's a reason why custom weapons in Soul Calibur were banned, its the same thing here. Items that directly change how the game is played should be banned. You cannot account for every combination of characters with every combination of gems. It no longer becomes a game of skill, it becomes a gamble.

 

[thetrin]

If there weren't DLC gems, I'd be 100% down for the gem system. I like it.

 

[CountAntonius]

Agree Spaniard. I've hit the "let them go nuts" point with this game. With everything they are trying something good is bound to stick and if not it will be at the very least a fun game to mess around with. The only thing that does worry me is the power of DLC and what direction they will take with it. If it proves to be real popular it could muck up the future of fighting games.

 

[Terareflection]

DLC gems are bullshit but come on, i'm not an expert on Arcana Heart but isn't there a high degree of customization too?

You can only use one Arcana, which all perform one specific action.

Autoblock is a waste? Say that to someone to baits the tech and punishes accordingly. Or someone who goes into an unblockable setup. Autoguard is absurd.

There are just way too many negatives involving gems for it to actually be viable in tournaments. There's a reason why custom weapons in Soul Calibur were banned, its the same thing here. Items that directly change how the game is played should be banned. You cannot account for every combination of characters with every combination of gems. It no longer becomes a game of skill, it becomes a gamble.

Are you the same Chindogg that runs Final Round?

 

[Chindogg]

People assume WAY too much shit given my avatar. I'm not some Smash apologist. I just find it hilarious that discussion seemed to hit a complete cul-de-sac once I posted the Seth interview.

Yet you continue to hammer MrWizard and have brought up items in Smash a couple of times already. Doesn't make it any more obvious than that.

BTW, Public Relations Seth != Real Life Seth. He's going to promote the game as he's been told. It's his job. He did say MvC3 online would be solid in a press interview before. If you want Seth's real opinion, buy him a beer and just talk to him. He's pretty open and honest when he gets to know you.

 

[LeonSKennedy90]

People assume WAY too much shit given my avatar. I'm not some Smash apologist. I just find it hilarious that discussion seemed to hit a complete cul-de-sac once I posted the Seth interview.

Don't play coy. This is about Smash Bros.

 

[Kimosabae]

Autoblock is a waste? Say that to someone to baits the tech and punishes accordingly. Or someone who goes into an unblockable setup. Autoguard is absurd.

There are just way too many negatives involving gems for it to actually be viable in tournaments. There's a reason why custom weapons in Soul Calibur were banned, its the same thing here. Items that directly change how the game is played should be banned. You cannot account for every combination of characters with every combination of gems. It no longer becomes a game of skill, it becomes a gamble.

This is such doom and gloom nonsense. Wait until you play the game. Someone going into a potential unblockable setup won't be the end-all strategy to beat. That will have counter strats and potentially even Gems capable of beating it (read: Guard Break Gem).

 

["God's Beard!"]

GEMS ARE SO COOL <3

Cards and Gems make me happy

 

[Nyoro SF]

If you waste meter trying to autoguard and autotech, you won't be able to deal any real damage in SFxT.

In fact, it'll be really tough to get meter for Cross Assault and Super Arts. Not to mention that the abilities Cross Counter, Tag Cancel, etc. will be much more difficult to apply on the fly. You're basically running on empty the entire match.

You never want to lose in a meter building war in versus/cross game. It's a slippery slope.

 

[Kimosabae]

Yet you continue to hammer MrWizard and have brought up items in Smash a couple of times already. Doesn't make it any more obvious than that.

BTW, Public Relations Seth != Real Life Seth. He's going to promote the game as he's been told. It's his job. He did say MvC3 online would be solid in a press interview before. If you want Seth's real opinion, buy him a beer and just talk to him. He's pretty open and honest when he gets to know you.

No, what's "obvious" is the correlation between the competitive potential of the two games and Mr. Wizard's actions. THAT'S what's obvious. All this bullshit extrapolation in hopes that you can color me as some Smash apologist doesn't fly in the face of the logic surrounding the comparison.


And lol at you trying to candidly dismiss the developer's and Seth's addressing of the issue in hopes that it will support your bias and won't make you look like a Wizard nut-hugger.

Don't play coy. This is about Smash Bros.

Don't play an idiot. This isn't about Smash Bros. You want people to think it's about Smash in hopes they'll dismiss me.

*edit*

And if you already have, come at me.

 

[sixteen-bit]

GEMS ARE SO COOL <3

Cards and Gems make me happy

Something something so outrageous

 

[Chavelo]

Don't play coy. This is about Smash Bros.

Wait, how is this about Smash Bros when half of the people are agreeing with him when it comes to tournaments and the stupid gem setup?

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Don't play coy. This is about Smash Bros.

It's not being coy when you're putting words into people's mouths.

 

[enzo_gt]

Something something so outrageous

Oh god.

Oh gosh it's haunting.

 

[Chindogg]

Wait, how is this about Smash Bros when half of the people are agreeing with him when it comes to tournaments and the stupid gem setup?

By half the people, you really mean yourself, him, and AAK right?

And lol at you trying to candidly dismiss the developer's and Seth's addressing of the issue in hopes that it will support your bias and won't make you look like a Wizard nut-hugger.

I'll take the word from the guys who aren't paid by Capcom who've played it (not just Wizard) over the guy who thinks this was a good idea in the first place and the guy who's paid to promote the game.

I realize that admitting being wrong can be difficult, but the first step to recovery is admitting that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Chavelo]

By half the people, you really mean yourself, him, and AAK right?

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I'm saying how can LeonSKennedy say this is about Smash Bros when Kimo is talking about MrWizard and the gem system, which in my brain says:

"OH HEY, HE'S ON TOPIC (GEM SYSTEM AND THE DISCUSSION OF IT) AND COMPLETELY NOT TALKING ABOUT THE NINTENDO GAME (SMASH BROS)"

And I meant half of the people are talking about the gem system, and other half is the one where you can dump your thread-derailing butt in it with this "lol SRK hates Smash Bros and you are butthurt" crap.

Oh wait, by the other half I really mean just LeonSKennedy and you. :3

 

[darkblade77]

No, what's "obvious" is the correlation between the competitive potential of the two games and Mr. Wizard's actions. THAT'S what's obvious.

Is this officially a ban, and one based on (excessive)gameplay potential? Has Mr. Wizard already gone on record officially stating what SFxT is going to be or not be regarding Evo, and why?

I'm sort of confused here because so far I do see gems as a TO logistical nightmare, and if he is mandating some sort of action/ban based on that, then I don't see how that relates to Smash/items at all. At least in the case of the latter, the most that needs to be done is one trip to the options menu before the console is put into use.

If it is a gameplay-motivated ban, then I definitely agree that kind of decision is premature and that more reasonable solutions should be well within consideration, esp. when the system hasn't been observed at any level of play yet. It would in essence be that Smash/items hypocritical decision if it is a full-on ban for those reasons.

EDIT: Okay I didn't read back far enough, but I guess it's still at 'all-but-confirmed' level. The actual reasoning behind it really determines whether the decision is something to get up in arms about, though. Right now I feel like Capcom would had to have made a very fast/accessible UI system just for Gem selection to not significantly cost a lot of setup time, not even counting people who are stuck pondering Gem selection as hard as character choice when they lose a match in a set. The preorder-exclusive and DLC gems just make things worse.

Oh god.

Oh gosh it's haunting.

Dark Lupinko rises

 

[corporate cheerleader]

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

It looks so funny when your angry avatar is right next to it, haha.

 

[Chavelo]

It looks so funny when your angry avatar is right next to it, haha.

ENTIRE THREAD IS BABIES

/sunglasses

 

[Chindogg]

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Hmm...

Wait, how is this about Smash Bros when half of the people are agreeing with him when it comes to tournaments and the stupid gem setup?

4 guys != half the board agreeing with gems. Bold caps won't get your point across any better than Kimosabae saying its not about Wizard yet brings him up in almost every post he's made since I mentioned that Wiz is banning gems (and possibly the game itself).

 

[enzo_gt]

ENTIRE THREAD IS BABIES

/sunglasses

Babies you say?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[Skilletor]

VF fans gets me each time.

 

[Chavelo]

Hmm...




4 guys != half the board agreeing with gems. Bold caps won't get your point across any better than Kimosabae saying its not about Wizard yet brings him up in almost every post he's made since I mentioned that Wiz is banning gems (and possibly the game itself).

Hmmmmm,

What I meant was that one half is looking forward to the gem system and other (which I tried to myself down in it by saying "stupid"... yep, I don't like it, my god SHOCKING) does not want to deal with it.

Also, I was trying to point out that in no way does Kimo's argument have to do with Smash Bros, which Leon apparently still think is...

So, uh, yeah... I'll try to write things more carefully for ya next time, pal.

Babies, you say?

The King of Fighters square is so hilarious... because is it the plain truth. Trust me, when you grow up in Jalisco, Mexico and have like 5 arcade stores around you, you would understand too XD

 

[Kimosabae]

I'll take the word from the guys who aren't paid by Capcom who've played it (not just Wizard) over the guy who thinks this was a good idea in the first place and the guy who's paid to promote the game.

Ar you going to post a link to the mythical opinions of these people so I can adequately judge their reasoning for myself? Or are you going to continue to condescendingly pet my curiosity?

I realize that admitting being wrong can be difficult, but the first step to recovery is admitting that you have no idea what you're talking about.

That's funny considering I've seen zero indication that Wizard, or anyone at all outside Capcom has had a chance to touch the Gem system at this point.

Whatever, you're not worth the time.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

By half the people, you really mean yourself, him, and AAK right?



I'll take the word from the guys who aren't paid by Capcom who've played it (not just Wizard) over the guy who thinks this was a good idea in the first place and the guy who's paid to promote the game.

I realize that admitting being wrong can be difficult, but the first step to recovery is admitting that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Sometimes they not any better to tell the truth .
These are same people that play games and don't say when stuff broken\ say a char to strong .
When we get the game the opposite happens , it still early my hype die down but i waiting to see what happens.

 

[CPS2]

No, what's "obvious" is the correlation between the competitive potential of the two games and Mr. Wizard's actions. THAT'S what's obvious.

Beyond some surface level "lol so NOW banning items is ok?!?!?" jokes, its actually not that similar at all. I think the thing to take away from smash bros is that their rules are pretty far from the game's default settings, and a lot of their rules (e.g. banning run-away, not attacking enough) are subjective and extremely difficult to judge fairly 100% of the time. I think if you're running an event and don't particularly care about smash bros, its just easier to let them do their own thing or ignore them. Not knocking smash players, but the ruleset they use is so different to every other fighting game that they really do seem like a separate entity.

Not to mention that items and gems do completely different things. If its that obvious though, perhaps someone can explain it. I don't see stat modifying gems as being particularly core to the game, no matter what their marketing says. The core game is the frame data, hitboxes, combo system etc. You can't exactly balance a game with gems, on top of everything else, when the core game is unbalanced and gems are equally available to both players. It's an add-on.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Chindogg:

What are the actual factual reasons why the gems are overpowered? What are the specifics? Why is it not viable? Just saying, people who played it already know and take their word is not good enough without explanation. It's condescending and arrogant sounding.

This is a brand new game. If they tacked on Gems into SF4, that would be a different thing.

But this is a new clean slate into which to experiment and try new things and bring new mechanics to the genre, which now includes pre-match strategy decisions to the table.

They is no template they are working against. Everybody will have to learn at the same pace, on what these gems do and what they won't do.

And you say:

"There are just way too many negatives involving gems for it to actually be viable in tournaments. There's a reason why custom weapons in Soul Calibur were banned, its the same thing here. Items that directly change how the game is played should be banned. You cannot account for every combination of characters with every combination of gems. It no longer becomes a game of skill, it becomes a gamble."

This is comparable, but not the same with SC special weapons. There was a template, set standard for which SC gameplay was based on, then these goofy weapons were tacked on for home console release.

If Namco somehow incorporated weapon selection into the original design, it might had been a different story.

I also don't agree it is a "gamble". People will know what the Gems do before the match. It doesn't random select the gems for you before the match, does it?

From what I understand now, you pick the gems after you select your character? Seems reasonable.

Also you say you can't account for every combination of gem/character. What does that mean? How is that bad?

Can't you account for every combination of character/assist/team order in MVC3/2? That is the meat of the game, learn the combinations. It's like learning how move priorities/hit boxes interact with each other, just now take on how gems interact with each other and effect the match. It's a brand new game. Everybody is on the same playing field. Everybody has to learn the game mechanics together.

That said, DLC/pre-order gems should be banned (maybe, we don't ban DLC characters).

I just think a final judgement should not be made until the game is out in the wild and the whole FGC can play and it and not just a select few (and take their word purely for it).

I hated on this Gem system at first, then I thought about it more, and I am open to new gameplay dynamics that these Gems could bring to the table.

Who knows, it could suck to holy high balls.

And again, if you have specifics, please post them.

 

[AAK]

Autoblock is a waste? Say that to someone to baits the tech and punishes accordingly. Or someone who goes into an unblockable setup. Autoguard is absurd.

Not from the video I watched. The comic con panel had that girl taking damage anytime she inputs something. So baiting a tech would still be punishable. And unblockable setups will remain unblockable. The autoblock gem just automatically presses back for you when the character is neutral. That's all.

 

[JJD]

Babies you say?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

OMG King of Fighters fans!!! Fersis, is that you??? LOL!

 

[Kimosabae]

Beyond some surface level "lol so NOW banning items is ok?!?!?" jokes, its actually not that similar at all. I think the thing to take away from smash bros is that their rules are pretty far from the game's default settings, and a lot of their rules (e.g. banning run-away, not attacking enough) are subjective and extremely difficult to judge fairly 100% of the time. I think if you're running an event and don't particularly care about smash bros, its just easier to let them do their own thing or ignore them. Not knocking smash players, but the ruleset they use is so different to every other fighting game that they really do seem like a separate entity.

Not to mention that items and gems do completely different things. If its that obvious though, perhaps someone can explain it. I don't see stat modifying gems as being particularly core to the game, no matter what their marketing says. The core game is the frame data, hitboxes, combo system etc. You can't exactly balance a game with gems, on top of everything else, when the core game is unbalanced and gems are equally available to both players. It's an add-on.

What you're saying is largely true. The basis for the comparison isn't the mechanics of the games themselves, however, but the perception that the games have among certain circles due to their mechanics and how Mr. Wizard has chosen to respond.

They're obviously different, but it's how Gems are currently being received by the SF community (despite knowing nothing about them), that give them a basis for comparison. Both enhance the attributes of characters in a way that seem external to the core gameplay emphases of both games.

The hilarious irony is that both communities embrace this the same way!

 

[FallingEdge]

As much as I think the game will suck even before all these gems and going by Ono's track record, we should wait until the game comes out before deciding if this should be banned or not. Play the game first, then make a decision. You guys are sounding like SC players who wanted to ban a patch of the game just based on the patch notes. How something works in theory != how it works in the actual game.

 

[CPS2]

With soul calibur, the weapons give different hitboxes and almost become a whole new set of characters (that are slightly different), and if you include clones + weapons, it adds to the problem, making the matchup game just seem dumb tbh. That's why those are banned. They only add cosmetic changes and confusion, nothing too exciting. Special VS in soul calibur is essentially the same thing as gems. Soul calibur is another game that is a pita to run, but most people agree that banning clones and extra weapons, and special vs mode makes sense. With small hitboxes changes, its a bit like how one of blanka's costumes actually changes his hitboxes and makes him harder to hit (i heard that on srk), i'd be in favour of banning costumes because of that.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

With soul calibur, the weapons give different hitboxes and almost become a whole new set of characters (that are slightly different), and if you include clones + weapons, it adds to the problem, making the matchup game just seem dumb tbh. That's why those are banned. They only add cosmetic changes and confusion, nothing too exciting. Special VS in soul calibur is essentially the same thing as gems. Soul calibur is another game that is a pita to run, but most people agree that banning clones and extra weapons, and special vs mode makes sense.

Have Gems been confirmed to change hitboxes for any moves?

To me, from what I have seen. Say like the power up gem. You get 12% boost for 8 seconds after a 3 hit combo or something?

If I know I got tagged by that 3 hitter, I know his next combo is is gonna hurt a tad more. I so I am going to play a bit safer to not get hit, so maybe I am going to be a little bit more open to throws or overheads.

But then the guy who has the boost in effect feels the need to get in, so he doesn't waste the 8 seconds, so maybe he will rush and take unnecessary risks.

I think it is reasonable to think this is an interesting dynamic in moment to moment gameplay that is fun and makes you think a little bit more about what is going on in a match and create ebbs and flows.

Again, I don't know what all the Gems do specifically.

That's why we need the final game to judge!

 

[DjangoReinhardt]

While SFxT looks fun and I'll buy it, I'm not overly excited at this point.

I'm glad that Capcom is trying out a whole bunch of new ideas in a Vs. game, but I'm disappointed because SFxT looks less appealing with each reveal.

I find it insane that Capcom cries about fighting games being inaccessible on one hand, then uses the other hand to keep adding esoteric mechanics and expanding rosters with no end in sight.

I dislike chain combos, but they'll almost certainly improve online play.

I can see how a customization system could be a fantastic feature if it's tasteful and subtle, but I suspect it's far more likely to turn into a debacle in this case.

I'm skeptical about this game having much of a community once the newness wears off.

 

[AAK]

As much as I think the game will suck even before all these gems and going by Ono's track record, we should wait until the game comes out before deciding if this should be banned or not. Play the game first, then make a decision. You guys are sounding like SC players who wanted to ban a patch of the game just based on the patch notes. How something works in theory != how it works in the actual game.

I like you. Best Post in the thread.

 

[CPS2]

i doubt gems change hitboxes, special vs abilities are more like gems. i was more pointing out some if the different reasons they ban stuff.

 

[Tizoc]

Would I want the game run as serious business at tournies? No.

Hmm mind elaborating on that please?

 

[Kimosabae]

I find it insane that Capcom cries about fighting games being inaccessible on one hand, then uses the other hand to keep adding esoteric mechanics and expanding rosters with no end in sight.

These so-called "esoteric mechanics" would be so much more exciting, and much less off-putting, if they weren't advertised so predominantly in every reveal, imo.

Maybe this is due to pressures from publishers, but I think fighting games would benefit if they were just released into the wild, with minimum exposure to their gameplay systems.

 

[Sayah]

Baseless speculation and arguing over something that most people have no clue over how it'll work?

Now a more valid complaint and something worth raising hell over is the certainty of Anna and Lee's absence. >_>

 

[base shagohod]

While SFxT looks fun and I'll buy it, I'm not overly excited at this point.

I'm glad that Capcom is trying out a whole bunch of new ideas in a Vs. game, but I'm disappointed because SFxT looks less appealing with each reveal.

I find it insane that Capcom cries about fighting games being inaccessible on one hand, then uses the other hand to keep adding esoteric mechanics and expanding rosters with no end in sight.

I dislike chain combos, but they'll almost certainly improve online play.

I can see how a customization system could be a fantastic feature if it's tasteful and subtle, but I suspect it's far more likely to turn into a debacle in this case.

I'm skeptical about this game having much of a community once the newness wears off.

Still not sure about all of the mechanics since we haven't played the final product yet, but more characters is a good thing, man. More the merrier.

 

[Corky]

Baseless speculation and arguing over something that most people have no clue over how it'll work?

thisisneogafdude.gif

 

[Sayah]

thisisneogafdude.gif

BUT IT'S ALL POINTLESS.
Eventually, the half of you are gonna end up eating your words and the other half is going to end up feeling like some super credible internet phenomena. It's fine to point out your concerns and worries when a new feature is revealed but to argue back and forth really is pointless when you, yourself, (not you specifically) have no clue how that new feature will end up.

It's better to wait and see how this turns out rather than jump to rash conclusions.

 

[Chindogg]

Are you the same Chindogg that runs Final Round?

That would be ShinBlanka, although I have been his cohost on a few Final Round podcasts.

 

[Wandering Leopard]

Baseless speculation and arguing over something that most people have no clue over how it'll work?

Perhaps. But I, like a lot of people I'm sure don't like the idea of auto block and auto throw tech and 40% attack boost doesn't thrill me either to be honest.

I do actually think they could have implemented it slightly differently though. I mean, why couldn't they give each gem a negative effect or maybe have character specific gems that could potentially help in bad match ups or something, even so, I doubt they have revealed everything related to the system - and things can still change - but so far i'm definitely not impressed.

 

[Fersis]

OMG King of Fighters fans!!! Fersis, is that you??? LOL!

Si!

I cant say that that image is wrong.