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Students have level-headed debate about safe spaces on campus (video)
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TheSpoiler
Member
Read my other post. I'm fine with having a discussion about fringe people taking advantage of the situation to have a shit fling at someone else. that's a very common problem. But the OP's purpose wasn't to start that discussion, it's the same boring usage of "I found this interesting" that leaves it open ended and heads the talk into a funneled path of garbage.
This isn't really all that good of a thing to critique anyway. These people are acting out of emotion and are being assholes about it. It's a college debate. There's not much to suss out in terms of activating a real talk. Now, bring me a whole host of examples and we can play ball. But a purposefully inflammatory title with a cringe video isn't going to illicit a discussion, and if you think the OP wasn't gunning for anything but that, I got a bridge to sell you.
What's really weird is that my old college was progressive as fuck, but still taught people to keep it chill as possible for the purpose of your audience and not just your opponent. These dudes may or may not be acting out because of some previous events - I know I'd be hot if someone said "you don't know what real racism is" after the shit that's happened to me - but it'd be better to find a baseline for this kind of thing rather than using a singular video to describe the current day ability of young people to converse about issues in a classroom.
legacyzero
Banned
Good lord.
Is this most college campus now?
I'd like to see it that way too. Then I remember I'm a have a daughter that I would like to some day send to college. I picture her being constantly scrutinized or hassled for whatever reason. Some of the videos I've seen have just been random encounters because somebody was white, the clothes they wore, etc.
Is this most college campus now?
I'd like to see it that way too. Then I remember I'm a have a daughter that I would like to some day send to college. I picture her being constantly scrutinized or hassled for whatever reason. Some of the videos I've seen have just been random encounters because somebody was white, the clothes they wore, etc.
I don't really understand why this is even an issue. College campuses are huge. Why do people care if one or two rooms are used up for a private space? On the flip side, why is holding such meetings on campus so important? There are so many places you could go to have a private talk with likeminded people.
Zantetsuken
Member
I cannot wrap my head around this, or the YouTube video in this thread. My head hurts.
LordGorchnik
Member
This isn't even a debate. It's just noise. People screaming at one another without given any thoughts for setting down and having a civil discussion.
Quite frankly it disgusts me a bit given that back in HS and college I took quite a few debate classes where PC came up quite a bit as a topic and everyone stayed entirely level-headed through the whole thing.
Is this the norm nowadays when discussing this? I certainly hope not.
Quite frankly it disgusts me a bit given that back in HS and college I took quite a few debate classes where PC came up quite a bit as a topic and everyone stayed entirely level-headed through the whole thing.
Is this the norm nowadays when discussing this? I certainly hope not.
Well the title is sarcastic, but I don't think it's too bad... Stuff like safe spaces, millenials, PC culture etc are all hot topics now, and I thought the video nicely condenses the kind of stumbling blocks these debates tend to have. That's why I thought it was interesting. Obviously it's probably edited by someone from the 'anti-SJW' side of things, so we don't get the full picture. The guy calling his opponents' views "snowflake mentality" isn't helping either.
As someone who teaches final year undergrads each year, I'm always shocked at how young they look. It definitely feels like I'm talking to children half the time.
What does OP find interesting about this?
Oh. You took a video of a person who is making poor arguments to assume that everyone who holds her positions has poorly constructed arguments. That's what you found interesting. Which is in itself interesting.
Oh. You took a video of a person who is making poor arguments to assume that everyone who holds her positions has poorly constructed arguments. That's what you found interesting. Which is in itself interesting.
Sapiens
Member
Where did you hear about Hugh Mongus?
Shai-Tan
Banned
This is what you get when people are self righteous, spend too much time living in an ideological echo chamber which demonize opposing views, no concept of principle of charity in interpretation. This is part of a culture war between liberals (in the classical sense) and progressives but on a level where no one bothered to read up on the political, philosophical, or historical background behind those conflicts in perspective. it's what you would expect from people learning from a path of least resistance which is twitter, blogs, news articles. There is an interesting pattern where half baked ideas get cultural cachet through repetition but it's a hot button issue so people cant help weighing in on it despite having opinions that would fail 100 level tests of understanding of any of the issues in relevant courses.
Look, if you want to discuss something and be heard as a sane and rational being then Listen, Acknowledge, Critique, and then Advance. It's not hard. I get that people in that room were angry, on both sides possibly, I'll admit to having trouble with some of the audio and my own hearing.
You get nowhere in a discussion by shouting down the other person, all that does is breed resentment, and the view you are unreasonable.
I truly do not get a lot of what is happening as regards safe spaces, and micro aggressions. They're not something that I really understand. What I would suggest is that if you feel you need a safe space then that's some combination of you lacking self-confidence or understanding of the situation around you, and a lack of understanding or tolerance from those around you. I wouldn't presume to say where that lies in every case, I'm not a mind-reader.
I think my overriding feelings on things like this is that both ends of the spectrum need to stop shouting at each other so that 98% of people in the middle can continue to exist without having to abide extremist politics. Let's all just be sensible about this...maybe if we all just respected other people's lives, and lived knowing that they respected our lives too we could all get along a lot better. I know it's a simplistic and impossible solution but I'd love for it to work.
You get nowhere in a discussion by shouting down the other person, all that does is breed resentment, and the view you are unreasonable.
I truly do not get a lot of what is happening as regards safe spaces, and micro aggressions. They're not something that I really understand. What I would suggest is that if you feel you need a safe space then that's some combination of you lacking self-confidence or understanding of the situation around you, and a lack of understanding or tolerance from those around you. I wouldn't presume to say where that lies in every case, I'm not a mind-reader.
I think my overriding feelings on things like this is that both ends of the spectrum need to stop shouting at each other so that 98% of people in the middle can continue to exist without having to abide extremist politics. Let's all just be sensible about this...maybe if we all just respected other people's lives, and lived knowing that they respected our lives too we could all get along a lot better. I know it's a simplistic and impossible solution but I'd love for it to work.
You've seen the two major candidates for POTUS, right?
the video is interesting, but the comments are not
don't look at the comments though, they don't indicate or reflect anything about the beliefs and communication skills of the commentors
in fact, the comments don't even exist at all, because the internet is a magical alternate reality and not just a network of computers being operated by humans to telecommunicate
wait how did donald trump take over the republican party?! i thought commentors weren't people???
what this video and it's comments tell me is "american education does not teach effective rhetorical skills and reinforces ineffective ones through teaching and rewarding formulaic writing to reach standardized benchmarks without actually evaluating arguments made"
don't look at the comments though, they don't indicate or reflect anything about the beliefs and communication skills of the commentors
in fact, the comments don't even exist at all, because the internet is a magical alternate reality and not just a network of computers being operated by humans to telecommunicate
wait how did donald trump take over the republican party?! i thought commentors weren't people???
what this video and it's comments tell me is "american education does not teach effective rhetorical skills and reinforces ineffective ones through teaching and rewarding formulaic writing to reach standardized benchmarks without actually evaluating arguments made"
Littlefang
Member
At least there's about 5 minutes of civil discussion...
The issue is that you get a group of people who have bad experiences with discrimination so they are hypersensitive towards anything they perceive to be discrimination and then you get a group of people who are sheltered to the extent that they believe that discrimination only exists in very few circumstances.
Also, as always, nobody can agree on what a safe space is.
The issue is that you get a group of people who have bad experiences with discrimination so they are hypersensitive towards anything they perceive to be discrimination and then you get a group of people who are sheltered to the extent that they believe that discrimination only exists in very few circumstances.
Also, as always, nobody can agree on what a safe space is.
M0nochromatic
Member
I've noticed similar happenings at my campus as well. It seems to me, that a lot of college kids do get into debates or arguments on the Internet, before they ever engage in real life ones. The ones who learned from online discussions tend to act like it; shout the other side down with numbers, be aggresive, repeat well known gotchya phrases, etc. It looks like a facebook feed played out in real time.
It would be best that this dosen't stick to those kids and they can learn from in person discussions and grow out of it.
It would be best that this dosen't stick to those kids and they can learn from in person discussions and grow out of it.
Vincent Grayson
Member
Of course there is. But these are also young people. They're college-aged, mostly in their late teens and early 20s, when virtually everyone is still a terrible excuse for a human being. Our generation (speaking from the cusp of the X/millennial line) was just as shitty about different stuff (hell, there was plenty of "PC" and "anti"-PC stuff in the 90s. Does no one remember the classic Jeremy Piven vehicle, PCU?
It's just that we were still focused mostly on gay rights and race issues. Now it's expanded and people talk about triggers, and gender identity and all kinds of stuff that (at least for me) were not really concerns when my friends and I were hitting college in the early 2000s.
I'm not saying there's any excuse for the histrionics that people get into in some of these videos. It doesn't do them any favors, or any of us who would otherwise agree with their cause. But I don't fault them for it because I feel like it really is an age and maturity thing.
I know a lot of people who would fall into the "SJW" category, but are in their 30s, and they absolutely speak passionately about the things they care about, but age brought the wisdom of not jumping to conclusions, not being combative, listening to what the "other side" is saying, and most importantly (IMO), not attacking the people who agree with you for not agreeing the right way.
Most of these people will be far better at boosting the causes they support in a few years.
sensui-tomo
Member
worst thing in my campus was a guy screaming that everyone was going to hell for not believing in the old testament (Oakland university btw) ... never had a bad instance happen in my years as a student here.
Vicetrailia
Member
This is an extremely low-level debate.
But the basics are the same. Status quo warriors vs change agents.
But the basics are the same. Status quo warriors vs change agents.
to be fair, this is all cable news panels ever are as well - this isn't a new phenomenon, the kids are just learning from their elders behavior
the fun part of debating aggressive people is baiting them into destroying their own positions and setting up the option select where their implicit assumptions for a part of their argument if proven true undermines another part of theirs more so than yours and if false then their argument has no foundation
BigBeauford
Gold Member
At least this shit isn't happening at my college.
*clicks thread*
Awww jeez...it's my college.
*clicks thread*
Awww jeez...it's my college.
Corronchilejano
Member
Can we first admit that identity politics were born in the US because certain ethnic groups have it worse than others? No? We still can't? Ok.
FloatingDivider
Member
I like the girl that has the body language and flow of a slam poet. I also like the dude looking like schoolboy Q just smiling at this shit. OOOOH shit, I hadn't even finished it the camera man gets in on and he starts shaking the camera like oh no you fucking didn't.
GamingOblivion
Banned
i love the people who's only exposure to safe spaces are these stupid videos. Safe Spaces are a very real and needed thing on college campuses. Unfortunately the few people who go overboard ruin it for the rest of us.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Being under White supremacy is exhausting and "safe spaces" are needed so I can take a break from all that nonsense.
Boss★Moogle;218150570 said:
Did you notice what set that off though? A person flat-out said institutional racism isn't real.
I don't have time to watch the video, but one thing that I will say (and I'm not addressing you now) is that being calm and reasonable doesn't get you respect or listened to, it just doesn't work.
I went to a mostly white HS, and was berated by white kids who insisted on targeting me with the n word, even after I very nicely explained that the word was hurtful to me and stipulations of it. Teachers and staff weren't helpful either. They didn't listen.
And even in adulthood, I don't see a progression in attitude, it's the same thing. college, in the workplace, I still notice the racism. That being said, I don't like to yell, but I'm not going to tell someone else how to voice their thoughts and make them so called 'more palatable' so a lot of people don't listen even when you're being nice so...you can't really foster a conversation with them.
Talking about the video again, a person doesn't really want to have a conversation if they use the term SJW(the uploaded video title), it's a filler word to me, that side steps real issues. Why not just address them instead of using it? I dunno.
I just wanted to say that being calm doesn't get you listened to, people just shrug things off when I tell them I'm bothered by certain things because I'm an African American. I'm not going to keep trying with people who are stubborn.
Excellent post.
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Sure, I don't think this applies to blacks though.
The article linked in the youtube description is interesting: http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=8163
I had a feeling it would get out of hand, but I truly did expect for people to come and voice opposition and for there to be serious and meaningful debate, not chaos and petulance. ...it's never the sjw types that come out of this kind of thing looking good.
I had a feeling it would get out of hand, but I truly did expect for people to come and voice opposition and for there to be serious and meaningful debate, not chaos and petulance. ...it's never the sjw types that come out of this kind of thing looking good.
And I will also add that 'Young America's Foundation' doesn't really want to have a real dialogue. Why would you take a discussion, as heated as it may be, and label it in that manner, it promotes a culture of vilification that goes much further than PoC there getting a little angry.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
To be fair you just have to look at the "Campus Reform" site that the video links to (ignoring the title) and it's a less than subtle alt-right site that claims to promote common sense conservatism.
It's the sort of statement that sets my teeth on edge.
rrgghh
Okay so, I really can't with these videos. What a shame that this is what people decide to do with technology in society.
As for safe spaces, they're not required in the UK seemingly, but there is that opinion where University is the one place where you should be in the position to discuss and debate differences of opinion.
I think you hit on something and it is something the left has yet to really reconcile imo.
There seems to be a growing rift between the younger more individual centric social advocacy stemming from ideas present in things like privilege theory with the more classical liberalism. An older view that places a heavier emphasis on advocacy primarily or exclusively aimed at systemic or foundational grievances and forgoes ideological purity in favor of mobilizing enough support to pressure change.
The former sees righteous causes in things like checking the privilege of a white guy wearing dreads while someone taking a more classical approach probably sees that as misplaced effort that could hurt mobilization for larger more systemic changes.
BigBeauford
Gold Member
Oh man. I've been using the term "guy/s" forever. I didn't know it was a form of microaggression.
Edit: Should've shot it in landscape so everyone's in the picture. This will probably be my first and last post in this type of threads. Oh I did it again.
Saying "you guys" is a part of Kansas dialect. It's our version of "hey y'all".
Boss Mog
Member
I don't know if we're watching the same video cause they only thing said before she says that is a guy saying: "we believe in freedom of thought, we believe you should be able to voice your opinion without being shutdown by the other side, like we've seen on campus" I don't really get at all how that equates to "a person flat-out said institutional racism isn't real."
I'm sorry you had to deal with douchebags in HS. What part of the US was this in just out of personal curiosity? I've personally never heard a white parson use the N-word in real life, even when there weren't any black people around. But my experience living in the US is mostly limited to NYC and LA so maybe that's why; I don't know how it is in the southern states.
meltingparappa
Member
The premise of the thread is clearly about the state of discourse in an unmoderated campus meeting about the intersection of identity and safety.
You'll note that most of the replies in this thread are less about the salient points of either side of the 'debate', but the futile nature of screaming about strawmen to one another.
The premise is seeing furvent internet arguing occurring in the real world away from a keyboard, and ineffective and cringe-inducing it is as a tool to actually persuade someone to see your point of view.
However, the title of the youtube video, captioning and comments of the videotube video are an unabashedly spectacular shitshow, but not at all the spin of the OP or any sane human who isn't trying circumventing a way to say the n-word.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Come on son
Actually thought this was going to be worthwhile
Actually thought this was going to be worthwhile
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
It's like the internet come to life.
Cr1tikal made a video about her and found out her channel is full of videos like this. She also posted a photo of what is supposedly an aborted fetus on her facebook account gloating about the abortion.
The woman needs help.
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