Nintendo could of had the best library of games ever and the GameCube's situation would of not have improved much sadly. The PS2s momentum was just unstoppable by the time Sunshine launched. People felt way more comfortable jumping from the PS1 to PS2 then they did to the GameCube. Also Marketing has allot to do with software and Hardware sales.
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Super Mario Sunshine....Gaf opinion!
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Nintendo could of had the best library of games ever and the GameCube's situation would of not have improved much sadly. The PS2s momentum was just unstoppable by the time Sunshine launched. People felt way more comfortable jumping from the PS1 to PS2 then they did to the GameCube. Also Marketing has allot to do with software and Hardware sales.
Nintendo showed with various systems that their fortunes are not that tied to other companies.
Individual sales of softwares were not really good for them during the GC years.
And the GC was no obstacle to that as it quickly dropped to bargain bin price meaning that the upfront cost of the system was not what was stopping their software from selling.
Unproven Xbox cost a fortune to MSFT and had barely anything of worth as far as Software goes and managed to outsell the GC.
They were banking on Zelda Twilight Princess for the longest time to get the GC out of the ditch it was in.
We now do know what they meant by that : they expected Zelda TP to basically be a phenomenon like BotW is now.
It's not the Gamecube's job to sell Mario sunshine and other Nintendo software, it's Mario Sunshine and other Nintendo's software's job to sell Gamecube.
A console in isolation is nothing.
Their business model is STILL TO THIS DAY based on royalty revenue from software sales on their platforms.
It is the very reason why they're going after 3rd parties, because every single software sold on their platform is more money in their coffers AND they cannot support a system alone.
If the Gamecube had the best library on Earth it wouldn't have been in the state it was.
It is BECAUSE their software on the GC was so unappealing that they went with the DS and then the Wii.
It is because Sunshine was such a failure that they went in a more streamlined way for Galaxy too till they reached 3D world on which they banked it would save the WiiU.
If you see a failed console, it's because it has failed software.
And we do know that incredible software is enough to save hardware, that's the very reason Nintendo went after Monster Hunter after it saved Sony's psp in Japan.
And again you don't need to market Mario platformers, the market knows them and loves them. It's not Captain Rainbow we're talking about. If the product is already unappealing there's nothing Marketing will be able to do to save it (unless you have the muscle of MSFT's Kinect push).
I grew up playing Super Mario World, then enjoying Super Mario 64 at release, along with the rest of the 3D platformers that came out during the height of the genre's popularity.
That being said, I could never enjoy Super Mario Sunshine. Something about it felt finnicky and I could never quite control it properly. I don't necessarily fault the game, but it was one of the few games I've ever ended up selling, and hell, I collect games as a hobby. Just never felt any connection to it whatsoever.
Did I just grow out of 3D platformers? I don't think so, as I wanted to like it. But nothing about the first world kept me wanting to play, and I found the initial world depressing.
I had the same issue with Super Mario Odyssey
That being said, I could never enjoy Super Mario Sunshine. Something about it felt finnicky and I could never quite control it properly. I don't necessarily fault the game, but it was one of the few games I've ever ended up selling, and hell, I collect games as a hobby. Just never felt any connection to it whatsoever.
Did I just grow out of 3D platformers? I don't think so, as I wanted to like it. But nothing about the first world kept me wanting to play, and I found the initial world depressing.
I had the same issue with Super Mario Odyssey
This. I loved it so much that I wanted toys of every single character in the game, NPCs and enemies included.
Sunshine was actually the first 3D Mario I played to completion, so I had no frame of reference to base my experience on. I had Mario 64, but I didn't play it myself until after Sunshine.
I have to say that controlling Mario in Sunshine feels phenomenal. I feel like I can do just about anything with him. Sometimes I like to fool around in Delfino Plaza and slide around on my own water slides. Also, Spin Jump is best jump.
pixellated_man
Member
High up on the list of my most favorite games ever. An absolute joy from start to finish, albeit that was at time of release. Don't know how well it holds up now since I've never replayed it.
again, what my post what saying (the part that you didn't highlight):
that's the important part.
Trying to downplay sunshine. Insisting in going over everything that was wrong with the game, down to the small details, and presenting it like there really isn't a great reason to play it, is pointless. The game is worth playing (very much so). I explain why, in detail, in the link in my other post (the one i quoted).
Sunshine can be great, you just need to know how to approach the game and how to play (both explained in the link above, for anyone interested).
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
It's the weakest 3D Mario game. Mario controls wonderfully, but the world around him is an unfocused mess that needed more time in development.
Again your take is interesting with its focus on interesting player controls.
Basically i think your commentary on how Mario control is very true and pretty what I would convey about Wind Waker as well.
I'll make analogies to WW a lot because they share a lot of strength and issues.
It really depends on what you value as far as games goes.
People who like the game a lot will emphasize that the strength more than makeup for the shortcomings while I (and others) will disagree and find the shortcomings rather too obvious to overlook.
I feel like anything good they had with the game was really in spite of the game's design rather than thanks to it.
Another one to the pile of why games needs a really good end game because that's really what stays with the player when he's done.
I very much disagree that the game is a must play.
I played it plenty of time and there's never a point where the game is really that interesting or that there's anything worthwhile to discover.
Even the controls are leaving options out for example they greatly improved the walljump but that means that we can no longer walljump after bumping headfirst into something.
So no longer can you long jump and wall jump just afterward.
The game isn't helping with pointless busy work everywhere, the initial focus on cleaning stuff is a mistake I think as it makes the game a worst experience trying to take it on its premise.
I feel like you need to not take the game on its own term to actually make it a better experience.
Wut?
loli pantsu
Member
I didn't like Mario Sunshine because of one particular boss fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTaXwjoI2as&t=2m22s
Filling the boss up with water and then jumping on it to make it vomit the water out?
Holy shit how did that ever get past QC?
This was similar to what Japanese troops used on WWII POWs, and playing this game just made me wonder what the hell was going through Miyamoto's head when the mechanics for the boss fight were designed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTaXwjoI2as&t=2m22s
Filling the boss up with water and then jumping on it to make it vomit the water out?
Holy shit how did that ever get past QC?
This was similar to what Japanese troops used on WWII POWs, and playing this game just made me wonder what the hell was going through Miyamoto's head when the mechanics for the boss fight were designed.
i wonder what was going through your head when you named yourself loli pantsu
Frankenstrat
Member
It's great, so that puts it a few notches below the rest of the main series which is fantastic on average.
Tyraniboah
Member
I really enjoyed it. It might be the "worst" 3D Mario, but that doesn't make it bad at all. If Nintendo does end up offering virtual console with GameCube games, I'll grab it again
The only thing really good about this game. Everything else is average, what made that the worst 3D Mario game.
I'm satisfied with this answer, as long as the person criticizing the game is also aware of the game's strengths.
Since the moment you start the game, and take control of mario?
Mario (the character) is what makes the game. Learning to control mario, and messing with him in the levels, while beating the main objectives, is reason more than enough to pick up the game.
How would someone, who's previous experience with 3d mario were the galaxy games, feel when he/she took control of sunshine's mario on the airport (at the beggining of the game), even before gettting fludd!?
(assuming he/she had a way of knowing how to do all of mario's moves)
lol, are you really going to nitpick about the controls?
I don't know if you remember it, but the long jump was taken out because of fludd. You couldn't wall jump after a long jump because, well, there wasn't a long jump.
If you wanted to nitpick about the controls, you could have mentioned, for example, how, in mario 64, if you pressed "a", right as you landed from a side flip, you got a double jump. However, in sunshine, by doing the same thing, you just got a regular jump, which didn't make sense.
Obviously, no one who insists in downplaying sunshine would be playing with the controls enought to catch such a detail.
Jawbreaker
Member
It's a fantastic game worth playing. I love it, personally. The pure platforming levels in particular are a favorite of mine.
I really liked it, but it's a super hard game. And, knowing that it's original concept was meant for another property, I can't help but feel like it's just Mario with a shoehorned mechanic. I'm aware that's kinda silly.
Freakin great music all around, though. Toadsworth is also best toad.
Freakin great music all around, though. Toadsworth is also best toad.
people who liked the secret levels (where fludd was taken from you) so much, should search on youtube "super mario sunshine hoverless".
recommended.
We'll have to discuss the strength then.
I feel like the meat of games is the content, if the content is crap you can't really save the game (unless the music is absolutely stellar, I've said it before and I'll say it again you can save a really shitty game with stellar music).
I feel like that's where we'll differ I guess.
Mario 64 worked that way because it steered players toward learning how to control it and made its best to put Mario in situations where you could take advantage of the controls and how to use them (similarly the nsmb games are stellar at doing that).
Sunshine isn't the 1st 3D Mario game and 3D platformers already followed its lead for years by the time Sunshine is out.
The game teaches you to use the new mechanics but not really use the core mechanic that are holdovers from Mario 64.
A typical Sunshine player will play with the fludd much more than just Mario, it shows as the game feels much more limited when they take away the fludd in specific sections.
The basic controls are superficially the same really, they didn't change that much since 64.
If, like most Sunshine players at the time, you went from 64 to Sunshine you really had no issue acclimating to the new controls.
The real 'new' stuff in Sunshine is the camera control and fludd.
You're actually right, brain farts on my part.
I meant the dive.
Basically everytime you hurl yourself at a wall in 64 you had a small window to do a wall jump.
In sunshine, it's only possible if you're sliding.
You can't long jump in Sunshine.
And incidentally you can walljump after a long jump in Galaxy because like in Sunshine you can only walljump after a slide.
My timing was never that good in 64 so I never pulled that off.
Usually if I'm doing that kind of movements (chaining jumps with side flips) I end up with the tornado jump which is actually more useful for me.
So I was ok with that change actually.
I don't think controls are the issues of Sunshine, they're not perfect (and they don't make up for issues of the game) but they work as expected if you ask me.
who gives a sh*t about the music (i'm sorry).
The controls of the playable character in sunshine were godlike, and that's much more important than anything else in a 3d platformer.
Sure, the game was lacking quality content (big time), the worlds (were you actually play with mario) were subpar, and didn't work that well in conjunction with mario, etc... but, depending on how you approached the game, it could be very fun anyway, thanks to mario's controls.
Even if you disagree. Point is, the game had something going for it.
i clearly wan't taking about a player who has played the 3D mario games in order. OP, for instance, hasn't played them in order. In fact, for a huge portion of the player base, the galaxy games were their first 3D mario games, so we should look into how playing them out of order would be.
Again, my comment:
so i'm clearly talking about someone who's going from galaxy to sunshine. The difference in what mario can do is absolutely massive. It's just a completely different approach to 3d platformers.
Worth a try.
choodi
Banned
Sunshine came out at a time that the gaming press were super eager to write Nintendo off as a force and as a hardware provider. As a result, they fell over each other to be the most critical and be the "leading voice" in the Nintendo is doomed trend.
Sunshine is the genesis for the amazing experimentation we have seen Nintendo take with many of its major home console titles over the past decade. I love it and will definitely play it again if the GC virtual console ever gets up and running on Switch.
Sunshine is the genesis for the amazing experimentation we have seen Nintendo take with many of its major home console titles over the past decade. I love it and will definitely play it again if the GC virtual console ever gets up and running on Switch.
The only way to do this is on Dolphin, and it feels so much better.
Nose Master
Member
I think it's the worst proper 3d mareeeo
MadJackChurchill
Banned
Looking at Giant Bomb East play it reminded me of just how loose and sloppy it felt when compared to Galaxy or 3D World.
Even the jetpack-less stages were ruined by the horrendous camera that doesn't work properly. Just a bad Mario game and just an OK platformer.
Even the jetpack-less stages were ruined by the horrendous camera that doesn't work properly. Just a bad Mario game and just an OK platformer.
I think that's a difficult argument to make considering it's flaws. However it's by far my favourite, warts and all!
Toadthemushroom
Member
It's a great game, coming second best to Mario 64 at the time was always an inevitable outcome, but second best to one of the best games ever was no small feat.
I replayed Mario Sunshine earlier this year having not touched the game in over a decade and I would still recommend anyone checks it out. It can be rough around the edges and the less-abstract feel to each level means they aren't full of pure platform challenges like Mario 64. But there's something about FLUDD, and the way most of the shine challenges have been designed, that makes this a joy to play and master.
It's also probably one of the most complex games from Nintendo to date by way of how important manual camera control is to playing the game.
I replayed Mario Sunshine earlier this year having not touched the game in over a decade and I would still recommend anyone checks it out. It can be rough around the edges and the less-abstract feel to each level means they aren't full of pure platform challenges like Mario 64. But there's something about FLUDD, and the way most of the shine challenges have been designed, that makes this a joy to play and master.
It's also probably one of the most complex games from Nintendo to date by way of how important manual camera control is to playing the game.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Its a mediocre game full of bad decissions, camera problems qnd bugs galore, that I always have a hard time thinking it was done by EAD and not something like Sonic Team.
My first Mario game was the first Super Mario Bros (unless you count Donkey Kong on Atari 2600), and I played the games as they were released.
When SMS came out, my friends and I were really hyped for it, and I was glued to it nonstop until I completed it.
I haven't really played it since then, but my time with it when it came out was fantastic.
I feel like people are overly critical of it, and I'm of the school of thought that it could be the worst Mario platformer and it's still going to be a fantastic game, because there are no bad mainline Mario platformers.
When SMS came out, my friends and I were really hyped for it, and I was glued to it nonstop until I completed it.
I haven't really played it since then, but my time with it when it came out was fantastic.
I feel like people are overly critical of it, and I'm of the school of thought that it could be the worst Mario platformer and it's still going to be a fantastic game, because there are no bad mainline Mario platformers.
I liked Sunshine for the freedom it gives you. FLUDD acts as a nice "Shit I slipped" saver that keeps (some of) the game from being frustrating, but he also offers the chance to come up with some crazy ways to get through levels. i.e. multiple paths through worlds and whatnot. Its probably my favorite sorta "sandbox" Mario game, and I still think some of the "other-world" levels are really really great platforming. Mario controls better than he has in any subsequent games. I remember having camera problems a few times, but nothing that was worse than most of what was out at the time (or now for that matter).
The cleaning is boring. The boss battles are repetitive. The FMVs are unskippable. There's plenty of "shit not this again levels". There's plenty of "Holy fuck why is this boat so slow" parts. You can bitch about it if you make a living bitching about games on YouTube. But spraying some water and sliding around, scaling towers, crazy wall jumps, etc. all made it a pretty fun game for me.
The cleaning is boring. The boss battles are repetitive. The FMVs are unskippable. There's plenty of "shit not this again levels". There's plenty of "Holy fuck why is this boat so slow" parts. You can bitch about it if you make a living bitching about games on YouTube. But spraying some water and sliding around, scaling towers, crazy wall jumps, etc. all made it a pretty fun game for me.
jts
...hate me...
Off-season Mario.
Worth playing it, has some nice music and visuals at times. Can be relaxing and fun and it's a nice break from usual Mario.
But it's just not as good, and not worth 100%ing it.
It's funny that I love Mario but I never touched that one again since the Gamecube days it came out in.
Worth playing it, has some nice music and visuals at times. Can be relaxing and fun and it's a nice break from usual Mario.
But it's just not as good, and not worth 100%ing it.
It's funny that I love Mario but I never touched that one again since the Gamecube days it came out in.
Alter_Fridge
Member
Felt odd to me and was unnecessarily difficult in parts
ProgenitorCastle
Banned
Fucking fantastic game for the most part. Don't let the haters drive you away from trying it and making up your own mind on it
UltimaKilo
Gold Member
Amazing game, one of my favorite 3D Mario games.
Patrick Young
Member
I like all the Mario games. I was going to say it's the worst one but that award goes to Super Mario Bros. 2.
the hyperbole...
thankfully the controls are there too, to remind you that it's an EAD game.
OP should be playing it right now while it's still summer.
I just finished again Super Mario Sunshine, and with 120 Shines (I did it once, so I didn't think I would do it again, life is surprising). Before Super Mario Godyssey's release (I'm so impatient), I wanted to play again Super Mario Sunshine.
The controls are fantastic and the level-design ingenious. When I play Super Mario Sunshine, I remember why I hated so much Assassin's Creed's controls (and why I love so much the original Mirror's Edge) : it's too assisted, there is no skill, no feeling of vertigo. In Sunshine, you must be careful when you're jumping, or else you're falling at the very bottom and you must try again. And I love the pure "bonus" platform levels.
The graphics are still very beautiful and I'm still impressed by the water in this game. I think nowadays water isn't much better in the recent games.
I love the concept of the blue coins and I don't understand the hate about it. Thanks to theses blue coins, we can realize the level-design is really excellent and some of them require very calculated jumps. When I think about it, I realize there isn't so much differences between Stars/Shines and the Blue Coins. When I think about Super Mario Sunshine, some stars are just like the blue coins in Sunshine : very well hidden in the level, some mechanics to activate, some wall to destroy, some secrets to find in the environment. In the other 3D Mario games, the concepts of the Stars/Shines and the blue coins have been "fused" : the green stars in Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Super Mario 3D World, and now the Moons in Super Mario Odyssey. I think this evolution is better. For the same reason, I loved the red coin's missions.
And I like Yoshi in this game. The player must be skillful when riding Yoshi (I love the 8th mission in the harbor). I loved the "teasing" in Pinna Island : false Yoshis in the carousel, platforms drawn like Yoshi's eggs in the "bonus" level, drawn flower (like the flowers in Yoshi's Island) on the background in the "bonus" level, enemies which look like Yoshi's eggs, and just after there is Shadow Mario stealing a Yoshi's egg. This teasing is brilliant (so I hope I won't be disappointed by Donkey Kong's absence in Odyssey and that he will be there).
There are flaws though :
- some missions are exasperating : Pachinko (although I dit it in only 3 tries, I was lucky - or very skillful ^^), rolling the giant watermelon, the "red coin fish" in Noki's Bay (because the pars of the game with the diving suit are almost unplayable), the bonus stage with the Piantas throwing me (especially when I had to catch all red coins in a limited time).
- some gameplay problems : the diving suit (almost unplayable, although the missions are very easy), driving the boat with FLUDD (the physics is really broken), pushing a (giant) fruit, shooting a durian (three times ! ) at the over side of the canal in Delphino Plaza, the horrible Pachinko level.
- some uninteresting missions : the three races against the Pianta are pretty lame without challenge, cleaning the hotel's beach (very easy and not interesting), saving 10 Piantas in Pianta's Village (very easy), chasing Shadow Mario 7 times (too easy and not interesting).
- I would have liked 2 or 3 more levels and more varied. But I recognize that these levels are very coherent between them, sharing the same geography in the same island (it's well done, I think myself in the real Delphino Island).
- too many blue coins require to spray water in all things in the levels, so it is a little repetitive. I hope that in Super Mario Odyssey it will be more varied, because FLUDD will be replaced by many captured powers from the enemies.
- I don't like at all the Pianta's design, especially their hands without fingers (N64 power ! ). The Nokis are correct.
- a very lame final level (too easy, too short, and the boat's physics is broken, it isn't fun at all, not spectacular and not epic at all contrary to the final levels in the other 3D Mario games) and a very forgettable final boss.
Conclusion : I always prefer Super Mario Sunshine to Super Mario 64, because the level-design is better (much more secrets to find, more PNJs, more lively, more verticality) and the controls are even better in Sunshine (although the controls are still very good in Super Mario 64). If Super Mario Godyssey is like Super Mario Sunshine, but without its flaws, with more levels (and more varied), more interactivity in the levels, more intensity and more pure hidden platform "bonus" levels (like in Super Mario Galaxy or 3D World), it would be a FANTASTIC game ! Now I played again Super Mario Sunshine, I can't wait for Super Mario Odyssey.
The controls are fantastic and the level-design ingenious. When I play Super Mario Sunshine, I remember why I hated so much Assassin's Creed's controls (and why I love so much the original Mirror's Edge) : it's too assisted, there is no skill, no feeling of vertigo. In Sunshine, you must be careful when you're jumping, or else you're falling at the very bottom and you must try again. And I love the pure "bonus" platform levels.
The graphics are still very beautiful and I'm still impressed by the water in this game. I think nowadays water isn't much better in the recent games.
I love the concept of the blue coins and I don't understand the hate about it. Thanks to theses blue coins, we can realize the level-design is really excellent and some of them require very calculated jumps. When I think about it, I realize there isn't so much differences between Stars/Shines and the Blue Coins. When I think about Super Mario Sunshine, some stars are just like the blue coins in Sunshine : very well hidden in the level, some mechanics to activate, some wall to destroy, some secrets to find in the environment. In the other 3D Mario games, the concepts of the Stars/Shines and the blue coins have been "fused" : the green stars in Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Super Mario 3D World, and now the Moons in Super Mario Odyssey. I think this evolution is better. For the same reason, I loved the red coin's missions.
And I like Yoshi in this game. The player must be skillful when riding Yoshi (I love the 8th mission in the harbor). I loved the "teasing" in Pinna Island : false Yoshis in the carousel, platforms drawn like Yoshi's eggs in the "bonus" level, drawn flower (like the flowers in Yoshi's Island) on the background in the "bonus" level, enemies which look like Yoshi's eggs, and just after there is Shadow Mario stealing a Yoshi's egg. This teasing is brilliant (so I hope I won't be disappointed by Donkey Kong's absence in Odyssey and that he will be there).
There are flaws though :
- some missions are exasperating : Pachinko (although I dit it in only 3 tries, I was lucky - or very skillful ^^), rolling the giant watermelon, the "red coin fish" in Noki's Bay (because the pars of the game with the diving suit are almost unplayable), the bonus stage with the Piantas throwing me (especially when I had to catch all red coins in a limited time).
- some gameplay problems : the diving suit (almost unplayable, although the missions are very easy), driving the boat with FLUDD (the physics is really broken), pushing a (giant) fruit, shooting a durian (three times ! ) at the over side of the canal in Delphino Plaza, the horrible Pachinko level.
- some uninteresting missions : the three races against the Pianta are pretty lame without challenge, cleaning the hotel's beach (very easy and not interesting), saving 10 Piantas in Pianta's Village (very easy), chasing Shadow Mario 7 times (too easy and not interesting).
- I would have liked 2 or 3 more levels and more varied. But I recognize that these levels are very coherent between them, sharing the same geography in the same island (it's well done, I think myself in the real Delphino Island).
- too many blue coins require to spray water in all things in the levels, so it is a little repetitive. I hope that in Super Mario Odyssey it will be more varied, because FLUDD will be replaced by many captured powers from the enemies.
- I don't like at all the Pianta's design, especially their hands without fingers (N64 power ! ). The Nokis are correct.
- a very lame final level (too easy, too short, and the boat's physics is broken, it isn't fun at all, not spectacular and not epic at all contrary to the final levels in the other 3D Mario games) and a very forgettable final boss.
Conclusion : I always prefer Super Mario Sunshine to Super Mario 64, because the level-design is better (much more secrets to find, more PNJs, more lively, more verticality) and the controls are even better in Sunshine (although the controls are still very good in Super Mario 64). If Super Mario Godyssey is like Super Mario Sunshine, but without its flaws, with more levels (and more varied), more interactivity in the levels, more intensity and more pure hidden platform "bonus" levels (like in Super Mario Galaxy or 3D World), it would be a FANTASTIC game ! Now I played again Super Mario Sunshine, I can't wait for Super Mario Odyssey.
Quintin DM
Member
Great game, not on the level as Galaxy or 64 imo but still great.
Fancyarcher
Member
It's a fun game. Never really understood the hate. Yeah the water pack limits things, but there are a lot of levels to explore thankfully. I got a lot of enjoyment out of the game back in the day, though I'll admit it's been forever since I last played it.