Support NeoGAF

[FleenerW]

I think there's a big difference between playing to your strengths versus throwing the fight or your pad ;D

You could say you're playing to your strengths, but by not learning the advanced tech you're also limiting your strengths. I do think it's a form of giving up.

Anyhoo, if stalling doesn't require skill/strategy then I suggest you go find M2K, get him to let you hit him first and see how long your stall lasts. Then try reversing the situation. I think you might find the results of these two tests will likely differ quuuuuiiiite significantly :3
Just because you don't personally see the attributes involved in something, does not mean they don't exist

A person that knows their spacing would have the advantage in small stages, yes, but playing keep away in a big enough area still doesn't require a lot of strategic effort. Overswarm said he used the stages and abused character mobility to overcome technical players, but you always seem to ignore that statement.

 

[SliceSabre]

Disappointment. I thought Brawl was a mistake (gameplaywise) and I also got bored of it much faster than Melee. I play lame but I like to watch offense more and its also more fun to play defensive in a game where offense is a reliable approach to fighting.

Also that there is nothing that can be done and I feel like any attempts at balance patching would make Smash discussions miserable (or more miserable than they already can be).

Its easier to deal with gameplay problems if you think the devs just arent listening tbh.

The very last thing Smash needs is balance patching.

That's for sure something that pisses off casuals even more than competitives.

I don't want to turn on Smash 4 one day and find out all the characters I like using have all suddenly changed. This what made me stop playing several other fighting games in the past.

 

[SuperSah]

I played 3DS first, I have to say GOT DAYUM, that frame rate. The 60 FPS was confirmed in the direct obviously, but man it was impressive to see. I played Mega Man and it was a timed match against an AI. It was on the NSMB stage, which was pretty cool, and there seems to be some coin collecting aspect to it. The game handled well. Circle Pad was easy to do Smash attacks with. October 3 can't come and sooner.

As for the physics, I thought it felt like a middle ground of Melee and Brawl. I actually killed the Brawl air dodges (despite that they prevent wave dashing).

The game is great and I can't wait for both versions.

Thanks for the impressions. When playing on the 3DS, did you feel it was too small? Also, did you try out the 3D?

 

[Beelzebufo]

The very last thing Smash needs is balance patching. That's for sure something that pisses off casuals even more than competitives. I don't want to turn on Smash 4 one day and find out all the characters I like using have all suddenly changed. This what made me stop playing several other fighting games in the past.

Really? Why? That's one of my favorite things about modern fighting games, it makes everything feel new again

 

[Tan]

I have a question, actually.

If Sakurai notes the changes people have asked for and still decides to keep the game the way he designed it (assuming these are conscious decisions) for the summer events, what would your reaction be?

I'd be bummed out, wait for my brother to buy the game, play it with him for a bit and then get bored.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

Miiverse is basically Smashboards, only they care about the roster instead of the physics.

 

[Hylian7]

Thanks for the impressions. When playing on the 3DS, did you feel it was too small? Also, did you try out the 3D?

It felt fine to me. Then again I'm one of those people that has never had a problem holding the 3DS or XL. I didn't try the 3D though.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

So most people feel like the demo you played now would not be a game worth buying

 

[Nezzhil]

If Sakurai and his team doesn't want to listen player's feedback, why nintendo's people were taking the notes about the impressions of the players of the tournament and e3? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Beelzebufo]

If Sakurai and his team doesn't want to listen player's feedback, why nintendo's people were taking the notes about the impressions of the players of the tournament and e3? That doesn't make any sense.

For marketing? Now they know not to target the game to the competitive crowd with things like gamecube controllers and invitational tournaments anymore.

 

[SuperSah]

Miiverse is basically Smashboards, only they care about the roster instead of the physics.

Salt

It felt fine to me. Then again I'm one of those people that has never had a problem holding the 3DS or XL. I didn't try the 3D though.

Sorry, I meant did you find the assets on screen to be too small? Could you easily see what was going on?

 

[Karsticles]

So most people feel like the demo you played now would not be a game worth buying

Worth buying is different from dedicating the next 5-6 years of your life to. That's what competitive players are concerned about. I bought Brawl, but I also stopped playing it after a month because the netcode is so bad. This game could share a similar fate, and I would rather that not be the case.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Miiverse is basically Smashboards, only they care about the roster instead of the physics.

And they'll buy the game anyways.

If Sakurai and his team doesn't want to listen player's feedback, why nintendo's people were taking the notes about the impressions of the players of the tournament and e3? That doesn't make any sense.

?

 

[voltronbadA]

Ugh, this thread has just become the worst. Intelliheath, maybe make two threads when we reach the end - smash thread Nine: For Glory (and whiners, complainers, and pessimists) and smash thread Nine: For Fun (and hype, optimists, and those that still want to buy the game)

 

[theprodigy]

I have a question, actually.

If Sakurai notes the changes people have asked for and still decides to keep the game the way he designed it (assuming these are conscious decisions) for the summer events, what would your reaction be?

NCL ignoring NoA?

Shock. Confusion. Disbelief.

/s

 

[Beelzebufo]

Ugh, this thread has just become the worst. Intelliheath, maybe make two threads when we reach the end - smash thread Nine: For Glory (and whiners, complainers, and pessimists) and smash thread Nine: For Fun (and hype, optimists, and those that still want to buy the game)

So should people complaining and whining about the pessimists go into the For Glory or For Fun thread?

 

[JoeInky]

So most people feel like the demo you played now would not be a game worth buying

Like someone above me said, it's a game I'd buy and enjoy for a bit of fun now and then.

But dedicate large portions of my life to exploring the game and organising tournaments for people in my area for a game I don't feel has any competitive depth? Not likely.

I just want a game that I'm going to be playing at least 5 times a week for the next 6 years

 

[SliceSabre]

Really? Why? That's one of my favorite things about modern fighting games, it makes everything feel new again

Well that's fine for you. But I hate balance patches because they change the game in ways that only appeal to a certain group and only really work in an environment that is very welcoming to the competitive scene. And this isn't one of those "And the casuals won't even notice!"

Street Fighter, Blazblue, hell even League of Legends being the worst offenders of this. Smash is a party game and I don't understand what people don't get about that.

 

[Tan]

So most people feel like the demo you played now would not be a game worth buying

In my case, yes. I didn't like how it felt, nevermind the competitive implications.

 

[sorakirosaki]

Worth buying is different from dedicating the next 5-6 years of your life to. That's what competitive players are concerned about. I bought Brawl, but I also stopped playing it after a month because the netcode is so bad. This game could share a similar fate, and I would rather that not be the case.

actually im kinda thinking the same im hoping the netcode is passable and is decent on on both systems and the single player is fun to play (from seeing the 3ds one it looks to be fun)

 

[Oswen]

Il surely get this for WiiU with the GC adapter, i've been wondering if it's worth to doubledip with the 3DS version aswell.

After the recent reveals everyone started to fully believe the leak and it's not that fun without speculation going around.

As for my thoughs I have mixed feelings regarding Chrom.
I believe Awakening deserves to be represented however there are many loved characters in the game that could be included to avoid using a third swordman: The Avatar, Tharja, Cordelia, Severa etc are all pretty popular and would appear much different in comparison to Marth/Ike.

As for other characters (which wont happen i know) i would seriously like to have Ganon (the giant Pig-demon King) and K.Rool.
The first however is not happening and we'll probably end up with TP-style Ganondorf, a shame for me really since i feel like Ganon is a more iconic villain.
K.Rool would probably fit Smash perfectly but since he has not been included in the two recent DKC games i feel like he has no chance at all.

As for the guests i'm indifferent regarding Snake return however i hope he stays mostly for the people who enjoyed playing with him in Brawl.
I admit i'd love to have Bomberman and Rayman as guests aswell though.

 

[SuperSah]

By the sounds of it, this will be the worst Smash game yet according to you guys. Y'all are way too pessimistic.

Fuck it, I play Smash for fun and this looks damn fun, so I don't care, regardless.

 

[Geminosity]

You could say you're playing to your strengths, but by not learning the advanced tech you're also limiting your strengths. I do think it's a form of giving up.


A person that knows their spacing would have the advantage in small stages, yes, but playing keep away in a big enough area still doesn't require a lot of strategic effort. Overswarm said he used the stages and abused character mobility to overcome technical players, but you always seem to ignore that statement.

Oh? I don't think i'm ignoring it, but then again I consider knowing how to use a stage's layout in conjunction with your character's mobility one of the primary skills required in most games. It's one of the key tenants of most FPS games after all and one of the first things you need to learn. Are you saying you don't think this is true? :3
I also think there's a difference between the initial knowledge of a map needed just to navigate it successfully and the deeper nuance of knowing it's various quirks well enough that can lead to interesting and sometimes outlandish tactics.

I think playing to your strengths is strategy. You consider it giving up. I guess we'll just have to live with the fact our stances on this point differ

 

[Tan]

By the sounds of it, this will be the worst Smash game yet according to you guys. Y'all are way too pessimistic.

Fuck it, I play Smash for fun and this looks damn fun, so I don't care, regardless.

I think we all play Smash for fun.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Well that's fine for you. But I hate balance patches because they change the game in ways that only appeal to a certain group and only really work in an environment that is very welcoming to the competitive scene. And this isn't one of those "And the casuals won't even notice!"

Street Fighter, Blazblue, hell even Legend of Legends being the worst offenders of this. Smash is a party game and I don't understand what people don't get about that.

It helps casuals too though. One of the biggest complaints about vanilla SF4 when it launched was that Zangief's lariat was overpowered if you have no idea how to play the game. It was so easy to beat new players with it online, and a lot of them complained. This was changed later, even though it wasn't really overpowered.

Anyway, first tier list from Scarf is up!

Spoiler

Not that it matters because nobody will play this game competitively lol

:

Top Tier
Kirby - Extremely fast, powerful, great grab range & throws, fantastic recovery and great spike
Pit - Extremely good super armor side B KO move, very fast, excellent recovery and a reflector
Zero Suit Samus - Very agile, fantastic recovery, range and combos
Greninja - Great aerials, fast and powerful attacks and a great projectile. Good recovery, too!
Donkey Kong - Surprisingly fast and very strong. Great recovery as well and a powerful spike

High Tier
Pikachu - Powerful Smashes and combos, great recovery and fast
Mario - Surprisingly agile and has tons of combos and great aerial game
Olimar - Powerful and fast moveset coupled with a fantastic recovery
Samus - Super fast and powerful ground game, Up-B is a KO move and has a great recovery
Fox - Very agile, super good recovery, tons of combos
Marth - More ground based now, weaker aerial game, throws are KO moves, great range
Rosalina - Very floaty, tricky game, great Up Smash, good aerials
Bowser - Fast and powerful, could be even higher!

Mid Tier
Mega Man -Weak up close game, but strong medium range game, good escape and tricky
Wii Fit Trainer - Very undeveloped, don't know much, though, putting her in the middle is safe.
Villager - Very weak up close, slow smash attacks, but good tilts and Up/Down Air
Sonic - No one played him!!! Putting him in the middle to be safe.
Link - Faster gameplay overall but much weaker camping game.

Low Tier
Little Mac - One mistake and you're done for! Can't fight platform camping or shield spam efficiently. Not the best grab range. Super powerful, but risky to use.
Zelda - Her moveset lacked strength, speed and range to compete with the other characters. She definitely needs to be changed up a bit.

 

[Storm Kyleis]

I have a question, actually.

If Sakurai notes the changes people have asked for and still decides to keep the game the way he designed it (assuming these are conscious decisions) for the summer events, what would your reaction be?

There's no way he's going to change core parts of the gameplay at this point of development.

 

[Tan]

Anyway, first tier list from Scarf is up!

:O Finally someone that agrees with me about little mac!

 

[Spinluck]

I played the 3DS version.

Must say it is pretty damn good.

I'll be taking any questions.

 

[voltronbadA]

By the sounds of it, this will be the worst Smash game yet according to you guys. Y'all are way too pessimistic.

Fuck it, I play Smash for fun and this looks damn fun, so I don't care, regardless.

Might need to bring back the #forfun tags huh? I didn't get a chance to make it to any best buys to test it out but everything I watched looked like tons of fun and this is still my most anticipated title this year.
#ForFunForever

 

[KittenMaster]

Balance patches can be good for super exploitive stuff that ruins online matches.

 

[JoeInky]

By the sounds of it, this will be the worst Smash game yet according to you guys. Y'all are way too pessimistic.

Fuck it, I play Smash for fun and this looks damn fun, so I don't care, regardless.

If you don't care about either way the game can turn out then what's the point in voicing your opinion other than trying to make this thread into even more of a hugbox?

 

[Geminosity]

Here's hoping the PotD starts pointing out Palutena's default moves!
I'm somewhat hype to be playing the green-haired goddess

 

[SuperSah]

I played the 3DS.

Must say it is pretty damn good.

I'll be taking any questions.

I have a few:

1) Did you flick on 3D? How was it?
2) Did you find viewing the action on a small screen to be okay?
3) Is the circle pad responsive enough?
4) I know the game runs at 60fps, but did you witness any issues at all?
5) Who did you play as and on what stage?
6) Any general comments about Smash on a 3DS?

Thanks. :3

 

[ionitron]

Tiers kind of resonated with me more in the old games but I honestly love these characters too much to care.

Rosalina, Megaman, Villager, will get all the plays.

Well okay- Marth will always be one of my mains.

I really love the roster as is and I do plan on playing with a whole bunch of them regularly, as opposed to my main Marth + 3/4 others in Brawl.


Edit: I also hear Sonic got some good buffs from people that played him, but, I don't know. Obviously too early to tell =<.

 

[JoeInky]

Tiers are pretty pointless with what we currently know and due to the fact all of the characters aren't out yet.

People haven't even had enough time to see what individual matchups are like yet, nor do we know anything about how custom moves might work in competitive play.

 

[Tookay]

Ugh, this thread has just become the worst. Intelliheath, maybe make two threads when we reach the end - smash thread Nine: For Glory (and whiners, complainers, and pessimists) and smash thread Nine: For Fun (and hype, optimists, and those that still want to buy the game)

Sorry I must have missed the part where only irrational hype is allowed in Smash threads, over the impressions of those who have actually played the game.

 

[Tan]

Tiers are pretty pointless with what we currently know and due to the fact all of the characters aren't out yet.

People haven't even had enough time to see what individual matchups are like yet, nor do we know anything about how custom moves might work in competitive play.

Obviously, but they're still fun to make and think about. Just look at the tier lists as if this demo was Smash 4 v 0.6 and judge it as so.

 

[woodland]

Well that's fine for you. But I hate balance patches because they change the game in ways that only appeal to a certain group and only really work in an environment that is very welcoming to the competitive scene. And this isn't one of those "And the casuals won't even notice!"

Street Fighter, Blazblue, hell even League of Legends being the worst offenders of this. Smash is a party game and I don't understand what people don't get about that.

I don't post here often, but I don't understand this kind of logic, and please don't take this as a personal attack as I don't mean it to be one. Why is patching that bad? The developers may take cues from players and look at something that a lot of people are complaining about, but at the end of the day it's their decision what they actually patch and it's for the benefit of the game.

At the same time, patches don't just help one group, they help everyone. They tweak things to make the game more balanced, which almost always = more fun for everyone. A game that's balanced competitively is fun for literally everyone - the people that play more casually, the people that play hardcore, and the people that play a mix of the two. If it's balanced at the lowest level or not balanced at all, it's only fun for the people that don't care as much. This can be seen in a ton of games, but examples would be Halo Reach, Halo 4, (maybe) Smash Brawl, and others. By balancing at the highest skill level everyone has fun, plus the casual crowd wouldn't even notice it. They're not always the hardcore group campaigning for change, they would probably go along with it.

Finally, balance patches add life to the game. Starcraft Brood War was kept alive for YEARS as a result of an expansion and balance patch. Dota 1 & 2 are being kept alive and relevant thanks to constant balance patches. Even Halo and Plants vs Zombies get balance patches and they keep the community focused and alive. People discuss the changes, adjust, etc. It goes in cycles and helps the game more than it hurts.

Like I said, please don't take this as a personal attack, but balance patches would help more than they hurt. You get used to changes which will take barely any time (people get used to them in Dota and League incredibly fast, and there's loads more characters in those games. Also, those are the 2 most spectated and played games in the world right now, yet the balance patches don't seem to be scaring anyone off do they?) and as a result the game gets new life breathed into it.

 

[SliceSabre]

Balance patches can be good for super exploitive stuff that ruins online matches.

And when does it end?

Hint:

Spoiler

It doesn't.

The competitive scene will always find something to moan about and ask to be patched. Again look no further than Street Fighter and League of Legends.

 

[Kurtofan]

Worth buying is different from dedicating the next 5-6 years of your life to. That's what competitive players are concerned about. I bought Brawl, but I also stopped playing it after a month because the netcode is so bad. This game could share a similar fate, and I would rather that not be the case.

I don't think you demoed the netcode

 

[Qurupeke]

Miiverse is basically Smashboards, only they care about the roster instead of the physics.

I really hope he's joking... but he isn't. SmashMiiverse is awful.

 

[Popnbake]

Well that's fine for you. But I hate balance patches because they change the game in ways that only appeal to a certain group and only really work in an environment that is very welcoming to the competitive scene. And this isn't one of those "And the casuals won't even notice!"

Street Fighter, Blazblue, hell even League of Legends being the worst offenders of this. Smash is a party game and I don't understand what people don't get about that.

It helps casuals too though. One of the biggest complaints about vanilla SF4 when it launched was that Zangief's lariat was overpowered if you have no idea how to play the game. It was so easy to beat new players with it online, and a lot of them complained. This was changed later, even though it wasn't really overpowered.

As Beelzebufo has pointed out, balance patches can work in making the game better for casual players as well if certain characters are just plain OP.

Competitive/hardcore players are usually the ones that continue to support your games long after casuals loose interest.

Would casual players be interested in purchasing the Gamecube adapters for their Wii U just to play Smash Bros? I doubt it.

If Sakurai/Nintendo have plans to implement additional purchases for Smash 4 such as official character themed gamecube controllers, DLC, and potential balance updates, having a strong competitive community for it would be the way to go.

Now combine that with Amiibos and Nintendo can really expand the sales potential for Smash 4. Especially when Wii U sales have not met their expectations.

 

[JoeInky]

I don't think you demoed the netcode

Dedicating large parts of your life to smash depends on a lot more than the net code considering all legitimate competitive play happens offline.



Smash could be so incredibly popular if it was a good competitive game, it's got flashy visuals, easy to understand mechanics but lots of potential depth, exciting comebacks and techniques can happen at higher levels of play and when casuals go to try it themselves after enjoying watching a hype game they're not immediately put off by large input barriers or having to play against top players online.

Smash could be fucking massive compared to what it is today, and that's only achievable by being good at a competitive level as well as for casuals, because it's the competitive fanbase that drives the game.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Here's hoping the PotD starts pointing out Palutena's default moves!
I'm somewhat hype to be playing the green-haired goddess

Same here. I'm curious about her default moveset.

 

[SenorArdilla]

:O Finally someone that agrees with me about little mac!

Over-specialized glass cannon?

 

[HK-47]

By the sounds of it, this will be the worst Smash game yet according to you guys. Y'all are way too pessimistic.

Fuck it, I play Smash for fun and this looks damn fun, so I don't care, regardless.

Dont spout that "for fun" bullshit. The only reason people would get competitive with a game in the first place is because they found it fun.

Fucking hate that.

 

[Hylian7]

Salt



Sorry, I meant did you find the assets on screen to be too small? Could you easily see what was going on?

Easily. I had no problem. It was on an XL, but I imagine it wouldn't be that hard on the OG 3DS. It was very easy to pick up on the small details like attack animations, or even Mega Man's Metal Blades.

 

[Tan]

Over-specialized glass cannon?

Yup! and the "glass" part comes from most of even his ground moves having a ton of recovery frames so putting up a shield stuffs a lot of what he can do. At least in my experience.

 

[superNESjoe]

Sorry I must have missed the part where only irrational hype is allowed in Smash threads, over the impressions of those who have actually played the game.

I must have missed the part where all of the impressions have been negative.

Melee took more than three matches to evolve into the game it is today. It's straight up stupid to take peoples impressions after a few games as indication of the competitive or legitimate nature of the game. Especially if they are hardcore Melee players, because they have a pre disposition that causes them to try and make existing strategies work as opposed to learning what's in front of them.

You ALL need to chill out, both sides. It is going to be a different game, it could end up being better then melee for all we know, it needs the time to be really played and broken down first.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't think you demoed the netcode

No, and given Brawl and Nintendo online in general, concern is the correct default position.