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[KevinKeene]

Foreword: I apologize for having brought up resetera too many times in the past. I'm just back from a 3-day ban, and I'm not really unhappy about it, because I felt a bit embarrassed from myself for the constant barrage of 'resetera!!1'. So let me just say that I fully accept that ban, it was good moderation

On to the main topic:

There's something I've noticed that keeps happening in many threads that goes counter to any good discussion. And yet it keeps happening, apparently unpunished, too.

I'm talking about three kinds of postings really:

1) The 'This place really has fallen low'-posting and its many variations. Often times insinuating that this is now a meet-up for alt right-fanatics, despite the political compass-thread, as well as the actual discussion going on here now, prove that accusation wrong quickly. Posting 'NeoGAF really is a GamerGate shithole now' serves no purpose but to disrupt a given thread (and ignores that GG isn't bad, but that's besides the point). If somebody thinks this forum is bad now (which would be absurd, considering the great, open-ended discourse taking place now), he's free to leave. That is what should happen. What shouldn't happen is to insult the current community at any given opportunity.

2) The 'Who cares?'-posting. I've witnessed that awful behavior in two threads I made. Some people came in there, and just posted 'who cares about it?'. OBVIOUSLY at least one person cares, otherwise that thread wouldn't exist! And obviously A LOT of people care, considering the amount of postings the Giant Bomb Kingdom Come-thread has accumulated.
Entering a thread and posting 'who cares' is just so insulting, degrading and only serves to sabotage discussion. 'No, no, I don't want to get this thread locked' they later say - that's exactly what you want.
If nobody (except for the OP) cares about a topic, that topic will quickly be forgotten without any anti-agenda, just so (For evidence see my great topic about 'real body complexity' on the gaming side ). Coming into a thread posting 'who cares', is an insulting shit-post, dedigned to end discussion. The only ones who get to decide when to end a discussion should be the mods and them alone.

3) The 'omg you're all alt righters, why am I even bothering with you!'-posting. Comes in many shades. It often comes combined with 1). Just now in the Giant Bomb Kingdom Come-thread someone was carefully proven to have been making a weak argument thst doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Instead of accepting that his argument was flimsy, he ended with a 'well, PERSONALLY, these tweets here are evidence enough for me that he is racist. If you don't see that, yore not worth talking to'. Aside from being an asinine discussion style, these postings boil down to 'you either agree with me, or you're alt right!'. It's the OldGAF/resetera motto that many have since described as 'you're either 100% with us, or 100% against us'. No nuance in-between. I really hope that's not a style of 'discussion that is being tolerated here.

And that's it.
I hope moderators pay a bit more attention to these kinds of terrible postings from now on (which might not always be easy, understood). I've seen these sorts of posting too many times in the past week, which is why ai saw the need to openly talk about it. Maybe other users can share their thoughts and experience. Thank you

 

[SoulUnison]

I mean, at least in response to point 1, I'm seeing -way- nastier opinions shared around here after the split than I did before, despite spending less overall time here in general than I did before that same split. It also feels like there's similarly a -lot- more new accounts spouting extreme views and just flat-out trolling. Combined with the decimated population and the way it seems like more than half of the posters around don't even bother to have an avatar anymore, the soul of the place just seems dead.

The increased intimacy has brought out a handful of exceptional posters who really seem interested in high-level conversation - I'd specifically like to shout-out for 'strange headache', in that regard, who I don't necessarily always agree with but I always understand his reasoning - but on the whole the activity around here is at a near stand-still, and what little movement there is is often either inane, disingenuously provocative or irrationally aggressive.

Frankly, in regards to just the point on being bitter this place now has something of an 'alt-right' reputation, I'd argue that the community is sort of earning it just by virtue of some extremely active and therefore visible members constantly going on about how 'left' the lost population is and how viciously glad they are to see them go. It's hard to claim not to be biased for "up" when you're loudly throwing parties about how "down" is gone and how much you've always hated it.

Also, as a final, mostly unrelated slightly-petty note, the text around here - as in, literally: the text - is way more informal and casual.
Posters don't seem to care as much about spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.. It seems like there's been a huge influx of people posting on here the same way they would on, say, Twitter. One or two short sentences, no capitalization, lots more abbreviations and 'net-speak.' There's nothing inherently wrong with that, per se, but it does sort of flavor one's perception of a dialog - it tends to read as flippant, young, or callous.

If you care enough about what you have to say you should have the self and general respect to bother to say it eloquently.

 

[prag16]

I mean, at least in response to point 1, I'm seeing -way- nastier opinions shared around here after the split than I did before, despite spending less overall time here in general than I did before that same split. It also feels like there's similarly a -lot- more new accounts spouting extreme views and just flat-out trolling. Combined with the decimated population and the way it seems like more than half of the posters around don't even bother to have an avatar anymore, the soul of the place just seems dead.

The increased intimacy has brought out a handful of exceptional posters who really seem interested in high-level conversation - I'd specifically like to shout-out for 'strange headache', in that regard, who I don't necessarily always agree with but I always understand his reasoning - but on the whole the activity around here is at a near stand-still, and what little movement there is is often either inane or irrationally aggressive.

What's "nasty"? What are "extreme views"? According to who? Compared to what? (Please don't say oldGaf.) And the forum isn't dead, with no soul. That's not far off from the type of questionable dismissive statement the OP is complaining about. Very few forums are as busy and fast as oldgaf. That's not a reasonable standard of comparison right now after the showergate fallout. Time will tell to what degree the forum will recover.

 

[mr2xxx]

I’m worried about conspiracy theories being peddled here.

 

[prag16]

I’m worried about conspiracy theories being peddled here.

Making a post like this and not showing receipts or elaborating in any way falls directly into what the OP is complaining about.

 

[SoulUnison]

What's "nasty"?

Generally intentionally dishonest, needlessly aggressive or undeservingly condescending.

What are "extreme views"?

Things in the vein of "that shooting never happened, they're all actors."

Before you make the in-vogue counterpoint, by the way: Yes, I do have examples, and no I'm not going to post them as I don't want this thread to become about very specific posts on a very specific issue. Additionally, yes, some of those posts got their authors warned or banned, but that's not actually relevant, as the conversation is about what views people are feeling embolded to share with the forum, and not whether or not they're actually punished for it.

If anything, in a way, there being consequences carried through with actually strengthens the point that these people are feeling more empowered and comfortable sharing hateful or extreme opinions because, either they're ignorant of the rules and/or that there is moderation, in which case it's essentially a moot point, or they're aware of the rules and the moderation team, and they either find their opinion worth sharing regardless of the possibility of retaliation or they're so comfortable in their opinion and their presumed atmosphere for the forum that they don't believe their statements are something that would ever warrant moderation.

According to who?

This question is provocative and disingenuous. According to me is all that really matters, as that's the only person I'm attempting to speak for.

Compared to what?

If you're trying to start a debate on moral relativism you're doing a poor job of it.

And the forum isn't dead, with no soul.

This isn't a statement you can say objectively and without any reasoning.
I gave several reasons for my perception of the current state of the forum, "you're wrong," isn't an acceptable counterpoint.

Very few forums are as busy and fast as oldgaf. That's not a reasonable standard of comparison right now after the showergate fallout. Time will tell to what degree the forum will recover.

It's not simply about being "busy." The nature of this place has changed.

The population is a fraction of what it once was and the incoming members seem to be more interested in "getting into that formerly semi-exclusive club" than they are with what the community actually is. It seems like people are joining more for off-topic than Gaming side, there's no industry representation here anymore, and I'm starting to feel like nobody even remembers that "GAF" is an acronym for something.

At the end of the day GAF's "real" soul was that it was a massively active community where enthusiasts and insiders from every corner of the industry co-mingled. That's dead. On both counts.
It's just objectively gone, and I don't know how you get that back. The NeoGAF name and reputation need to be redeemed, and the current community and state of dialog just won't do that - it's incapable.

 

[mr2xxx]

Soul hit it on the head.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

Foreword: I apologize for having brought up resetera too many times in the past. I'm just back from a 3-day ban, and I'm not really unhappy about it, because I felt a bit embarrassed from myself for the constant barrage of 'resetera!!1'. So let me just say that I fully accept that ban, it was good moderation

On to the main topic:

There's something I've noticed that keeps happening in many threads that goes counter to any good discussion. And yet it keeps happening, apparently unpunished, too.

I'm talking about three kinds of postings really:

1) The 'This place really has fallen low'-posting and its many variations. Often times insinuating that this is now a meet-up for alt right-fanatics, despite the political compass-thread, as well as the actual discussion going on here now, prove that accusation wrong quickly. Posting 'NeoGAF really is a GamerGate shithole now' serves no purpose but to disrupt a given thread (and ignores that GG isn't bad, but that's besides the point). If somebody thinks this forum is bad now (which would be absurd, considering the great, open-ended discourse taking place now), he's free to leave. That is what should happen. What shouldn't happen is to insult the current community at any given opportunity.

2) The 'Who cares?'-posting. I've witnessed that awful behavior in two threads I made. Some people came in there, and just posted 'who cares about it?'. OBVIOUSLY at least one person cares, otherwise that thread wouldn't exist! And obviously A LOT of people care, considering the amount of postings the Giant Bomb Kingdom Come-thread has accumulated.
Entering a thread and posting 'who cares' is just so insulting, degrading and only serves to sabotage discussion. 'No, no, I don't want to get this thread locked' they later say - that's exactly what you want.
If nobody (except for the OP) cares about a topic, that topic will quickly be forgotten without any anti-agenda, just so (For evidence see my great topic about 'real body complexity' on the gaming side ). Coming into a thread posting 'who cares', is an insulting shit-post, dedigned to end discussion. The only ones who get to decide when to end a discussion should be the mods and them alone.

3) The 'omg you're all alt righters, why am I even bothering with you!'-posting. Comes in many shades. It often comes combined with 1). Just now in the Giant Bomb Kingdom Come-thread someone was carefully proven to have been making a weak argument thst doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Instead of accepting that his argument was flimsy, he ended with a 'well, PERSONALLY, these tweets here are evidence enough for me that he is racist. If you don't see that, yore not worth talking to'. Aside from being an asinine discussion style, these postings boil down to 'you either agree with me, or you're alt right!'. It's the OldGAF/resetera motto that many have since described as 'you're either 100% with us, or 100% against us'. No nuance in-between. I really hope that's not a style of 'discussion that is being tolerated here.

And that's it.
I hope moderators pay a bit more attention to these kinds of terrible postings from now on (which might not always be easy, understood). I've seen these sorts of posting too many times in the past week, which is why ai saw the need to openly talk about it. Maybe other users can share their thoughts and experience. Thank you

I suspect that some of the toxic attitude that we all thought had left the forum have started to slink back after the other site went on to become super saiyan toxic.

Is not really a discussion, it's a projection that they themselves are correct first and if you don't flip the switch to their point of view immediately you are a racist Russian hacker from 4chan who is a regular poster on the Donald.

Don't even get me started on the not arguing in good faith crap

 

[Mahadev]

I would argue that the who cares posts are valid if they're followed by an argument explaining why people shouldn't care or why the subject is trivial.

 

[KevinKeene]

I would argue that the who cares posts are valid if they're followed by an argument explaining why people shouldn't care or why the subject is trivial.

But people do care. :/

 

[Mahadev]

But people do care. :/

Some people care for all kind of stupid crap, that doesn't mean we should take them and their concerns seriously or pander to them. The driveby "who cares" posts are awful but a post explaining why the issue is trivial or the discussion of it pointless and you shouldn't care about it is very, very different.

 

[KevinKeene]

Some people care for all kind of stupid crap, that doesn't mean we should take them and their concerns seriously or pander to them. The driveby "who cares" posts are awful but a post explaining why the issue is trivial or the discussion of it pointless and you shouldn't care about it is very, very different.

Who are you to 'explain' someone else what to care or not care about

You are free to enter a discussion and explain why a certain viewpoint is wrong/dumb/unneccessary. But outright telling someone not to care about something is extremely arrogant.

 

[SoulUnison]

Who are you to 'explain' someone else what to care or not care about

You are free to enter a discussion and explain why a certain viewpoint is wrong/dumb/unneccessary. But outright telling someone not to care about something is extremely arrogant.

You're not literally wrong but you seem to be intentionally ignoring the nuances and even overt statements of what's being said to you in the pursuit of creating/drawing out argument.

On Gaming side a week or so back there was a topic asking "Will the Nintendo Switch ever support PS4 Remote Play?"
That's an inane question to ask on an enthusiast gaming forum. Some topics are inherently needless; below the minimum expectations of common sense.
Likewise, as Mahadev said, a post giving a detailed explanation of a legitimate reason why a subject is trivial or why getting riled up over it is pointless or counter-intuitive is very different than a drive-by "shut up who cares."

 

[KevinKeene]

You're not literally wrong but you seem to be intentionally ignoring the nuances and even overt statements of what's being said to you in the pursuit of creating/drawing out argument.

On Gaming side a week or so back there was a topic asking "Will the Nintendo Switch ever support PS4 Remote Play?"
That's an inane question to ask on an enthusiast gaming forum. Some topics are inherently needless; below the minimum expectations of common sense.

I'm not talking about philosophical questions, though. Your example literally makes no sense to ask. The threads I'm talking about make/made sense and many people (did) care about it. Again: If you want to turn this into a philosophical 'do topics exist that nobody should care about', you can do this, but it's not what I'm bringing to attention in this topic.

"Who cares" never is a valid response. If you have an argument to make as for WHY you think a train of thought is wrongly applied, argue that. But leave out the shitpost-'who cares' to start off with. It makes what follows at least as worthless as what you think about the topic.

 

[SoulUnison]

I'm not talking about philosophical questions, though. Your example literally makes no sense to ask. The threads I'm talking about make/made sense and many people (did) care about it. Again: If you want to turn this into a philosophical 'do topics exist that nobody should care about', you can do this, but it's not what I'm bringing to attention in this topic.

"Who cares" never is a valid response. If you have an argument to make as for WHY you think a train of thought is wrongly applied, argue that. But leave out the shitpost-'who cares' to start off with. It makes what follows at least as worthless as what you think about the topic.

Ok, but you're doing it again.
Mahadev and I are both talking about a specific outlying example of what you're talking about but you keep bringing it back to a worst-case scenario that nobody's actually disagreeing with.
You even specifically edited my last line out of the quote so it wouldn't be as obvious that you're sidestepping what people are saying to keep presenting your strawman.

What is this thread for? Did you just want a bunch of feel good sycophancy or to lure some easy punching bags out of the woodwork?

 

[KevinKeene]

Ok, but you're doing it again.
Mahadev and I are both talking about a specific outlying example of what you're talking about but you keep bringing it back to a worst-case scenario that nobody's actually disagreeing with.
You even specifically edited my last line out of the quote so it wouldn't be as obvious that you're sidestepping what people are saying to keep presenting your strawman.

What is this thread for? Did you just want a bunch of feel good sycophancy or to lure some easy punching bags out of the woodwork?

I removed your last paragraph because i already answered to that in an earlier posting. I'm not going to repeat myself.

However, now you're revealing your intents, directly asking 'what is this thread for?'. I'm not going to answer that, it's all there in the OP for you to read. It's not what you're maliciously trying to put in my mouth.

If you truly don't see anything wrong with the 3 kinds of postings I detailed in the OP, I really donlt want to talk to you anymore. But I guess you've reachrf your goal and shat up this thread successfully. I hope other users join this thread to break up your derailing.

 

[SoulUnison]

I removed your last paragraph because i already answered to that in an earlier posting. I'm not going to repeat myself.
However, now you're revealing your intents, directly asking 'what is this thread for?'. I'm not going to answer that, it's all there in the OP for you to read. It's not what you're maliciously trying to put in my mouth.
If you truly don't see anything wrong with the 3 kinds of postings I detailed in the OP, I really donlt want to talk to you anymore. But I guess you've reachrf your goal and shat up this thread successfully. I hope other users join this thread to break up your derailing.

Your definition of "derailing" seems to simply mean that I dared to not give you the answers you were fishing for and that I bother to call you out on your obvious ploys.
People aren't required to agree with your views and opinions and being challenged isn't the worst thing that can happen to a person.

 

[Papa]

Things in the vein of "that shooting never happened, they're all actors”

I read that thread and don’t recall anyone claiming that the shooting never happened. There were one or two users who were skeptical about the children potentially having been manipulated by the media to fit a political agenda but no one outright claimed that the shooting was fake. I don’t necessarily agree with the skepticism, but to immediately close your mind off to the possibility of media manipulation in a highly emotive and contentious issue like gun control is just naive and says to me that you’re fighting from an ideological position as much as the person you’re attacking is.

 

[SoulUnison]

I read that thread and don’t recall anyone claiming that the shooting never happened. There were one or two users who were skeptical about the children potentially having been manipulated by the media to fit a political agenda but no one outright claimed that the shooting was fake. I don’t necessarily agree with the skepticism, but to immediately close your mind off to the possibility of media manipulation in a highly emotive and contentious issue like gun control is just naive and says to me that you’re fighting from an ideological position as much as the person you’re attacking is.

I don't disagree with the concept of media manipulation; quite the contrary, of course it's manipluative, why is that even something surprising enough for people that they bring it up as some sort of be-all-end-all "gotcha?"
Anything with any degree of editorializing or human interest or just emotion involved is going to be "manipulative," no matter how "objectively" it's presented.
Learning is manipulative; it changes our perceptions, contexts, and opinions.

The real debate isn't about whether or not the news is manipulative, not really, that's just the framing.
What people are actually fighting about is whether the topic is important enough to warrant the media attention it's getting, and considering it's about a consistent pattern of mass murders, it's really hard to justify saying it's not.

It's just human nature to dislike having your own environment or possibilities change because of something negative happens somewhere that feels completely removed from you, but this is just this week's mass murder spree.
We've already pretty objectively proven that this sort of thing can happen anywhere in the country, so 95% of the country uniting to loudly circlejerk each other with "Well it's not like it'll happen here" every time there's a shooting is just illogical.

Anyway, this is becoming a legitimate derailment, and this topic wasn't meant to be about gun issues or shootings in current events.

 

[Papa]

Huh, I guess we now just accept media manipulation for political agendas as normal then.

By the way, I find your use of italics incredibly obnoxious.

 

[SoulUnison]

Huh, I guess we now just accept media manipulation for political agendas as normal then.

By the way, I find your use of italics incredibly obnoxious.

But see, it's not that I support the media manipulating to create a political agenda, but just rather that I support a stance that's getting a lot of long-time-coming attention due to current events.
I expect the media to be held to levels of accountability and integrity that means they present the facts as they are, but presenting a story isn't in and of itself inherently political just because it deals with a politicized issue.
To me it doesn't feel like I'm "accepting media manipulation" so much as you're "accepting" mass shooting as just an inevitability we need to get over.

As far as the italics, it's a conscious effort to try to convey some of my cadence and inflection through text, so I'm sorry if that annoys you, but it's petty and I don't intend to stop.

 

[Journeywalker]

Huh, I guess we now just accept media manipulation for political agendas as normal then.

As I see it:

This ship sailed a long time ago. Market forces created this. Simply by living in NY/LA/DC, the old institution of the "objective" news media had a small implicit liberal bias in story selection.

In the 90's/00's, Rupert Murdoch/Roger Ailes/Mike Drudge took advantage of the difference in world views between the producers in the cities and conservatives to carve out an ideological audience that got used to intentionally cherry-picked news and spin. Fox News stoked distrust of the "MSM" because it helped viewer retention. Nobody had created an ideological audience willfully crafting a world view on this scale before.

As conservatives moved further and further to the right on issues of denying science, abandoning market-based solutions to health care, environmentalism, distrust of intellectuals, unwillingness to compromise, and white identity politics, the lesson seemed to be that you could shift the Overton window simply by moving in a given direction because split screen political discussion has no frame of reference.

I think traditional media finally gave up the pretense of objectivity with the rise of a politician that they fundamentally saw as someone dangerous to society.

 

[SoulUnison]

I think traditional media finally gave up the pretense of objectivity with the rise of a politician that they fundamentally saw as someone dangerous to society.

This is a really powerful statement because it's hard to disagree with, easy to hate that it could be true, and yet so tempting in its call to justify it - all while never mentioning anyone by name.

 

[WaterAstro]

I think it's okay to talk about it as long as the subject is recent. I told you in a PM that a general encompassing thread about the forum didn't sit well, so something more specific, like talking about this whole Vavra KCD thing, would have been more focused for discussion, like what you did with the Gerstmann topic which is generating discussion.

I hope you don't get into any more trouble for this specific thread though. Probably should just accept it and drop the subject of "rights to post". I dunno, this is a new neogaf. I definitely would have been banned if I made this thread last year.

 

[prag16]

I think traditional media finally gave up the pretense of objectivity with the rise of a politician that they fundamentally saw as someone dangerous to society.

No, I think this happened much sooner (even if to a bit less of an extent). More like when social/alternative media started to rise significantly in power/influence. Mainstream media in some respects had to lower their standards just to compete.

Generally intentionally dishonest, needlessly aggressive or undeservingly condescending.

The overall "tone" if anything is MORE civil now than before the exodus, so not sure what you're getting at here.

Things in the vein of "that shooting never happened, they're all actors."

I didn't see anyone make that claim. It's possible I missed it. But probably not, because you wouldn't be the first to baselessly bemoan the new alleged "alt right" dominance around here.

This isn't a statement you can say objectively and without any reasoning.
I gave several reasons for my perception of the current state of the forum, "you're wrong," isn't an acceptable counterpoint.

Fair enough. Yes in a lot of ways things are very different now. Almost all the 'communities' and most of the content creators are gone, and likely not coming back in anything like their previous form. But activity has been picking up compared to a month or two ago, and while he's become a punching bag in some circles I agree with Evilore's premise that a least a portion of the "soul" that was lost isn't necessarily worth saving. So it is what it is, and we move forward from here.

It's not simply about being "busy." The nature of this place has changed.

The NeoGAF name and reputation need to be redeemed, and the current community and state of dialog just won't do that - it's incapable.

Yes the nature has changed. But following on my previous comment, a great many people here now don't necessarily see that as a bad thing in certain respects. And I think your general appraisal of the forum's atmosphere is inaccurate, and that you might feel the way you do more due to being so used to oldGaf (and maybe Era now, don't know if you're over there or not) than actual "problems" with the type/level of discourse found here now. We can actually have a discussion with multiples sides now, and can bring nuance to situations such as Vavra and GG (which flat out wasn't/isn't allowed, and bannable, on the old forum and Era). That's a good thing, and will be an important factor as gaf moves forward and forges its new identity. Because you're right, the old identity is dead and gone, which is a shame in a lot of way, but maybe not in other ways. Onward and upward.

 

[matt360]

Also, as a final, mostly unrelated slightly-petty note, the text around here - as in, literally: the text - is way more informal and casual.
Posters don't seem to care as much about spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.. It seems like there's been a huge influx of people posting on here the same way they would on, say, Twitter. One or two short sentences, no capitalization, lots more abbreviations and 'net-speak.' There's nothing inherently wrong with that, per se, but it does sort of flavor one's perception of a dialog - it tends to read as flippant, young, or callous.

I've noticed this as well, and it does lower the quality of conversation...at least in my mind.

Also, SoulUnison, has anyone ever accused you of being a Bobby Roberts alt account? Both left-leaning (I'm assuming you are), from Portland, and use a fuckton of italics in your posts. That's all I've got. You two are the only two posters I can think of who go nuts with the italics and your reasoning for overusing them is the same as his. I don't actually believe you to be, I just thought it was kinda funny. And your points in the thread are spot on.

 

[Dr. Claus]

1) The 'This place really has fallen low'-posting and its many variations.

2) The 'Who cares?'-posting.

3) The 'omg you're all alt righters, why am I even bothering with you!'-posting.

While I do agree with point 3, I think 1 and 2 are going a bit far. I prefer they openly try to discuss their view points. There are definitely specific folk who genuinely may think that current GAF may not be on the best direction and that should be discussed. Not everyone has the same idea of what is "acceptable" and what isn't. There are a few who I would argue that may be trying to move the burgeoning "newGaf" into a direction that I am not fond of. However, if you are more referring to people who simply come in, claim such, refuse to expound upon their beliefs then I can understand where you are coming from.

As for 2, I feel that overly moderating these types of posts in each thread may overly stress moderators and be too inline with the heavy handed moderation that was seen here previously. I think a good middle man would be to see the types of posts a particular user is making. If that user continues to try to rile others up, post disingenuously, or shitpost - then there may be need for a moderator to come in and warn/temporary remove the user from that thread or the site. Ultimately a ban should be the absolute last resort.

I mean, at least in response to point 1, I'm seeing -way- nastier opinions shared around here after the split than I did before, despite spending less overall time here in general than I did before that same split. It also feels like there's similarly a -lot- more new accounts spouting extreme views and just flat-out trolling. Combined with the decimated population and the way it seems like more than half of the posters around don't even bother to have an avatar anymore, the soul of the place just seems dead.

I have to disagree with you here. I am not sure where you are seeing all these "extremist views" or "flat out trolling". Much of the trolling I see come from older members who refuse to discuss and argue in bad faith. There have been *maybe* 2 or 3 actual trolls who have been dealt with in quick order.

The increased intimacy has brought out a handful of exceptional posters who really seem interested in high-level conversation - I'd specifically like to shout-out for 'strange headache', in that regard, who I don't necessarily always agree with but I always understand his reasoning - but on the whole the activity around here is at a near stand-still, and what little movement there is is often either inane, disingenuously provocative or irrationally aggressive.

I have to agree that folk like strange are wonderful to have actual conversations and discussions with, but I don't se where there is a "near stand-still". The forum is growing each day and most discussions are tame and discussion has been amiable. Most of the "inane, disingenuously provocative, or irrationally aggressive" posts have mostly been from older members who preferred the more authoritarian moderation and community that was OldGaf.

Frankly, in regards to just the point on being bitter this place now has something of an 'alt-right' reputation, I'd argue that the community is sort of earning it just by virtue of some extremely active and therefore visible members constantly going on about how 'left' the lost population is and how viciously glad they are to see them go. It's hard to claim not to be biased for "up" when you're loudly throwing parties about how "down" is gone and how much you've always hated it.

You have completely lost me here. I feel like you are not reading the posts at this point. The majority of folk are not "alt-right" in any manner and don't consider the old forum as a whole "left" and how it is bad. The general community clearly says that it was authoritarian left in nature and how they tried to speak for *all* left-leaning liberals. The majority of folk on this forum are left-leaning liberals as can be seen from the thread and general discussions.

Also, as a final, mostly unrelated slightly-petty note, the text around here - as in, literally: the text - is way more informal and casual.
Posters don't seem to care as much about spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.. It seems like there's been a huge influx of people posting on here the same way they would on, say, Twitter. One or two short sentences, no capitalization, lots more abbreviations and 'net-speak.' There's nothing inherently wrong with that, per se, but it does sort of flavor one's perception of a dialog - it tends to read as flippant, young, or callous.

If you care enough about what you have to say you should have the self and general respect to bother to say it eloquently.

Now you are just nitpicking.

 

[NovumAngel]

No, I think this happened much sooner (even if to a bit less of an extent). More like when social/alternative media started to rise significantly in power/influence. Mainstream media in some respects had to lower their standards just to compete.



The overall "tone" if anything is MORE civil now than before the exodus, so not sure what you're getting at here.



I didn't see anyone make that claim. It's possible I missed it. But probably not, because you wouldn't be the first to baselessly bemoan the new alleged "alt right" dominance around here.



Fair enough. Yes in a lot of ways things are very different now. Almost all the 'communities' and most of the content creators are gone, and likely not coming back in anything like their previous form. But activity has been picking up compared to a month or two ago, and while he's become a punching bag in some circles I agree with Evilore's premise that a least a portion of the "soul" that was lost isn't necessarily worth saving. So it is what it is, and we move forward from here.

I agree that, while the conversations do take a slower pace, they are generally quite civil, from where I've been reading/posting at least.

I think the bolded is the part that's really hurting right now. I've tried posting in a couple of community threads on both gaming and off-topic sides only to find them completely abandoned. There is also a lack of continuity in the longer term threads, weekly/monthly, that need to be ironed out. For example, even just yesterday I wanted to see if there was a new 50 Movies, 50 Books thread set up for the new year and one hasn't even been created.

 

[BANGS]

I think you're reading way too much into what is basically normal forum behavior. Not every post is a honey bee dance...

 

[prag16]

I think you're reading way too much into what is basically normal forum behavior. Not every post is a honey bee dance...

Yeah, what I said upthread aside (was mostly just responding to SoulUnison's seemingly biased account of the situation here), I think only the third problem in the OP is actually really "bad", and whatever is meaningfully bad about #1 I see as more a subcategory of #3 as it relates to the current state of affairs. Otherwise, yeah... normal forum behavior mostly.

 

[Palliasso]

We, as moderators, are definitely paying attention and looking out for the kind of bad behavior that OP describes. Whereas in the past things like this would get you banned for a length of time and continued offences would result in a permanent banning, our moderation now typically will issue warnings to these users (if it's their first offense) and a ban only if the problems persist. When we issue warnings to users we don't always make those warnings public, as we try to strike a balance between visibility (to deter others from repeating the behavior) and civility (so that the topic doesn't devolve into a "OMG did you see that harsh warning so-and-so got?").

Some of your other examples regarding people commenting about how this place has changed: it has. There are less members posting for now, the moderation policy has been updated to be more lenient to minor infractions, the software running the forum has been overhauled, and we have a lot of new features implemented - and more in the works coming soon. Politically speaking, the board doesn't have a "stance" and your individual experience may be colored by what you read that others have wrote. This is a forum where all opinions will be valued as long as they're presented in a rational argument that doesn't resort to personal attacks or hate speech. All that is to say, we want people to actually be the change you want to see in NeoGAF: be mindful of the comments you make, present them rationally, and keep an open mind about what others have to say.

As always if you see a post that you feel requires intervention by a member of our moderation team, please feel free to report it using the "Report" button.

 

[Soleil rouge]

I mean, at least in response to point 1, I'm seeing -way- nastier opinions shared around here after the split than I did before, despite spending less overall time here in general than I did before that same split. It also feels like there's similarly a -lot- more new accounts spouting extreme views and just flat-out trolling. Combined with the decimated population and the way it seems like more than half of the posters around don't even bother to have an avatar anymore, the soul of the place just seems dead.

The increased intimacy has brought out a handful of exceptional posters who really seem interested in high-level conversation - I'd specifically like to shout-out for 'strange headache', in that regard, who I don't necessarily always agree with but I always understand his reasoning - but on the whole the activity around here is at a near stand-still, and what little movement there is is often either inane, disingenuously provocative or irrationally aggressive.

Frankly, in regards to just the point on being bitter this place now has something of an 'alt-right' reputation, I'd argue that the community is sort of earning it just by virtue of some extremely active and therefore visible members constantly going on about how 'left' the lost population is and how viciously glad they are to see them go. It's hard to claim not to be biased for "up" when you're loudly throwing parties about how "down" is gone and how much you've always hated it.

Also, as a final, mostly unrelated slightly-petty note, the text around here - as in, literally: the text - is way more informal and casual.
Posters don't seem to care as much about spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.. It seems like there's been a huge influx of people posting on here the same way they would on, say, Twitter. One or two short sentences, no capitalization, lots more abbreviations and 'net-speak.' There's nothing inherently wrong with that, per se, but it does sort of flavor one's perception of a dialog - it tends to read as flippant, young, or callous.

If you care enough about what you have to say you should have the self and general respect to bother to say it eloquently.

You're not fooling anyone, Bobby. Even your alt accounts are corny as fuck.

 

[KevinKeene]

Interesting that it's not just me who was reminded of Bobby Roberts. Although that's not a compliment at all.

We, as moderators, are definitely paying attention and looking out for the kind of bad behavior that OP describes. Whereas in the past things like this would get you banned for a length of time and continued offences would result in a permanent banning, our moderation now typically will issue warnings to these users (if it's their first offense) and a ban only if the problems persist. When we issue warnings to users we don't always make those warnings public, as we try to strike a balance between visibility (to deter others from repeating the behavior) and civility (so that the topic doesn't devolve into a "OMG did you see that harsh warning so-and-so got?").

Some of your other examples regarding people commenting about how this place has changed: it has. There are less members posting for now, the moderation policy has been updated to be more lenient to minor infractions, the software running the forum has been overhauled, and we have a lot of new features implemented - and more in the works coming soon. Politically speaking, the board doesn't have a "stance" and your individual experience may be colored by what you read that others have wrote. This is a forum where all opinions will be valued as long as they're presented in a rational argument that doesn't resort to personal attacks or hate speech. All that is to say, we want people to actually be the change you want to see in NeoGAF: be mindful of the comments you make, present them rationally, and keep an open mind about what others have to say.

As always if you see a post that you feel requires intervention by a member of our moderation team, please feel free to report it using the "Report" button.

Thank you. As for not making public warnings, I think at least for that 'who cares' type postings it'd be helpful to publically correct such users, as a single such notion often derails threads, getting them locked. Of course, if you moderators don't get influenced by these shitposts, public warnings are less needed

 

[prag16]

Interesting that it's not just me who was reminded of Bobby Roberts. Although that's not a compliment at all.

Holy shit. His sentence structure and style is vaguely Bobby-esque too. However I think Soleil rouge is joking. And the SoulUnison account registered in 2011 with several thousand posts. If that's really a BobbyRobers alt, hot damn that's playing the long game.

 

[SoulUnison]

I've noticed this as well, and it does lower the quality of conversation...at least in my mind.

Also, SoulUnison, has anyone ever accused you of being a Bobby Roberts alt account? Both left-leaning (I'm assuming you are), from Portland, and use a fuckton of italics in your posts. That's all I've got. You two are the only two posters I can think of who go nuts with the italics and your reasoning for overusing them is the same as his. I don't actually believe you to be, I just thought it was kinda funny. And your points in the thread are spot on.

I've never heard that name before on here, which seems bizarre since instantly everyone seemed to be completely familiar with the mannerisms of whoever you're talking about.

 

[Bolivar687]

I mean, at least in response to point 1, I'm seeing -way- nastier opinions shared around here after the split than I did before, despite spending less overall time here in general than I did before that same split. It also feels like there's similarly a -lot- more new accounts spouting extreme views and just flat-out trolling.

This is madness.

This is a forum that proudly and expressly called for violence against its political opponents. When the moderator Iapetus spoke out against this mentality, they were systematically dogpiled, had their moderation privileges revoked, and was then ridiculed by the owner for good measure. Before the split, OT was filled to the brim and overflowing with vitriolic hate posts demonizing political perspectives that were very much well within the mainstream. Competitive outrage threads dominated the front page, whose only goal was to perpetuate post after post of the exact same angry reactions, using the exact same vocabulary of disingenuous false-equivalency dishonest #bothsides intentionally-ignorant whataboutism (some of which you yourself interestingly subscribe to). On election night, "fuck white people" became the common refrain, with only those outright calling for genocide receiving bans. Anyone questioning this coordinated agenda was witch hunted, their post history investigated by DetectiveGAF (thought policing was so commonplace we actually had a nickname for it), and eventually banned for their failure to conform. The mods would send one final insult in the ban message, while the rest of the forum would join hands to dance on the member's grave once the ban tag went live.

If you seriously see this place as having fallen lower, then you must be hanging upside down.

Frankly, in regards to just the point on being bitter this place now has something of an 'alt-right' reputation, I'd argue that the community is sort of earning it just by virtue of some extremely active and therefore visible members constantly going on about how 'left' the lost population is and how viciously glad they are to see them go. It's hard to claim not to be biased for "up" when you're loudly throwing parties about how "down" is gone and how much you've always hated it.

We have a political compass thread establishing that the majority of politically-engaged posters here are on the left. We aren't any kind of right, let alone the boogeyman buzzword you seem so committed to unintentionally normalizing. If criticizing the authoritarian left makes someone alt-right, then the great majority of reasonable people today would necesarily be alt-right. We have conservatives here now just as we had conservatives before - the difference being that you now have to treat them like human beings instead of waiting out for their inevitable ban.

Similarly, we had right-wing shitposters before, too but, conversely, they're now being banned instead kept around like live mice for the snakes to toy with before devouring them alive.

At the end of the day GAF's "real" soul was that it was a massively active community where enthusiasts and insiders from every corner of the industry co-mingled.

This manufactured narrative has been exposed many times. NeoGAF was widely reviled by the gaming industry for years and years. By the time the Xbox One and PS4 launched, we were down to just a few prominent insiders, who mostly got themselves banned in the year or two just after because of how toxic this place became. Jason Schreier was just about the only professional journalist who kept tabs on here and mostly so he could shill for his own articles and book. The toxicity of GAF's highly active personalities, their echoing fandom, and their guardian angel moderators was turning away the broader industry - these two things you're juxtaposing were mutually exclusive and not at all mutually dependent.

It's just objectively gone, and I don't know how you get that back. The NeoGAF name and reputation need to be redeemed, and the current community and state of dialog just won't do that - it's incapable.

Then you really need to leave.

 

[Catphish]

Holy shit. His sentence structure and style is vaguely Bobby-esque too. However I think Soleil rouge is joking. And the SoulUnison account registered in 2011 with several thousand posts. If that's really a BobbyRobers alt, hot damn that's playing the long game.

This kinda thing right here is why I think it's a bit foolish to take forum discussions too seriously. I know there are good, honest people who want to have good, honest discussions but, at the end of the day, you don't always know exactly who or what you're dealing with.

Best to take things with a grain of salt, imo, and not get too emotionally invested with any of it.

 

[SoulUnison]

Then you really need to leave.

And herein lies the problem.

 

[prag16]

And herein lies the problem.

Ha. I grimaced a little when I saw his closing line. Because I figured you'd use it to stake out the high ground and justify ignoring the rest of the post. Seems I figured right.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Snip

I agree with much of what you said, but I had to say that your final sentence made me chuckle. Made me think that you are an ornery old cowboy in a saloon, telling someone that they should git.

And herein lies the problem.

Not really. It is clear that you have no interest in the current climate here at GAF and prefer to continue using false information and rather silly claims such as how everyone is suddenly "alt-right" and hate the "left" of the old community.

 

[Bolivar687]

And herein lies the problem.

If this post was intended to ironically embody OldGAF's reputation, which you've gone great lengths to whitewash, of foregoing conversation in favor of condescending dismissals, then you sure as hell succeeded.

 

[MajinSweet4]

I don't disagree with the concept of media manipulation; quite the contrary, of course it's manipluative, why is that even something surprising enough for people that they bring it up as some sort of be-all-end-all "gotcha?"
Anything with any degree of editorializing or human interest or just emotion involved is going to be "manipulative," no matter how "objectively" it's presented.
Learning is manipulative; it changes our perceptions, contexts, and opinions.

The real debate isn't about whether or not the news is manipulative, not really, that's just the framing.
What people are actually fighting about is whether the topic is important enough to warrant the media attention it's getting, and considering it's about a consistent pattern of mass murders, it's really hard to justify saying it's not.

It's just human nature to dislike having your own environment or possibilities change because of something negative happens somewhere that feels completely removed from you, but this is just this week's mass murder spree.
We've already pretty objectively proven that this sort of thing can happen anywhere in the country, so 95% of the country uniting to loudly circlejerk each other with "Well it's not like it'll happen here" every time there's a shooting is just illogical.

Anyway, this is becoming a legitimate derailment, and this topic wasn't meant to be about gun issues or shootings in current events.

He said that no one posted that the event was fake like you claimed. You even went as far as to say Things in the vein of "that shooting never happened, they're all actors." quotes and all, which would imply someone said at least some form of this flat out. The fact that you just gloss over this when called out is super gross and manipulative. If you can't even have a discussion without instantly making things up to make someone look as bad as possible, perhaps it's not the other users here who are "nasty".

 

[SoulUnison]

He said that no one posted that the event was fake like you claimed. You even went as far as to say Things in the vein of "that shooting never happened, they're all actors." quotes and all, which would imply someone said at least some form of this flat out. The fact that you just gloss over this when called out is super gross and manipulative. If you can't even have a discussion without instantly making things up to make someone look as bad as possible, perhaps it's not the other users here who are "nasty".

You know, what, no, you're right. I went back just read and skimmed that entire thread again, and I was misinterpreting some of the sentiment because of the way words like "inauthentic," fake," and "conspiracy" were being thrown around. The view wasn't expressed that the kids are "fake" in the sense that there's a Sandy Hook Truther angle going on here, just that they're "fake" in how much they care about the issues involved. I'm in the wrong on that one, and that's my bad. That said, I think it's not that many degrees better than insinuating the entire event was fake to act as though there's some maximum amount a person can care and react to being a target of a mass murder when mass murders seem to be a weekly event. Honestly, the whole thing still manages to fit under a label of "conspiracy theory."

What "agenda" are they pushing? "Not being shot to death in civilian life?" Who's on the other die of that issue?

 

[Soleil rouge]

Holy shit. His sentence structure and style is vaguely Bobby-esque too. However I think Soleil rouge is joking. And the SoulUnison account registered in 2011 with several thousand posts. If that's really a BobbyRobers alt, hot damn that's playing the long game.

I have more proof that soul unison is Bobby Roberts than he does of GAF being an alt-right, Nazi, gamergate haven with bad spelling and grammar.

 

[SoulUnison]

I have more proof that soul unison is Bobby Roberts than he does of GAF being an alt-right, Nazi, gamergate haven with bad spelling and grammar.

Look man, I don't know what to tell you except that all I can do is share and comment on my own experiences and perceptions.
Maybe somehow I've only ever participated in threads and interacted with users who gave me the impression of this site that I have, but I'm being honest and trying to be fair here, and that's all anyone can ask.

 

[prag16]

Look man, I don't know what to tell you except that all I can do is share and comment on my own experiences and perceptions.
Maybe somehow I've only ever participated in threads and interacted with users who gave me the impression of this site that I have, but I'm being honest and trying to be fair here, and that's all anyone can ask.

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

I kid, but I've heard just about this exact sentiment from a handful of posters, with regard to this place being alt-right and/or oldgaf/Era being totally not a militant echo chamber, "based on the threads they've been in, etc".

Probably true to some extent; which discussions you involve yourself in has an impact, but I think there's a disconnect here still. And some will deny it, but I continue to be almost certain it's a result of a lot of people having become so used to and desensitized by 2014-2017 gaf's atmosphere. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Papa]

You know, what, no, you're right. I went back just read and skimmed that entire thread again, and I was misinterpreting some of the sentiment because of the way words like "inauthentic," fake," and "conspiracy" were being thrown around. The view wasn't expressed that the kids are "fake" in the sense that there's a Sandy Hook Truther angle going on here, just that they're "fake" in how much they care about the issues involved. I'm in the wrong on that one, and that's my bad. That said, I think it's not that many degrees better than insinuating the entire event was fake to act as though there's some maximum amount a person can care and react to being a target of a mass murder when mass murders seem to be a weekly event. Honestly, the whole thing still manages to fit under a label of "conspiracy theory."

What "agenda" are they pushing? "Not being shot to death in civilian life?" Who's on the other die of that issue?

I was about to hit the like button after the first half of this post but then I read the rest.

 

[ickythingz]

I’m worried about conspiracy theories being peddled here.

I see a lot of things posted here people do not want to admit are happening, but that does not make a topic a "conspiracy theory." I'd be very curious to see what you feel is false info/incorrect info. Can you please give examples of what you feel is a "conspiracy theory"? Also, why are you against conspiracy theories? I hope you are not equating the term with "crazy person."

 

[Autoignition]

As someone who's often guilty of #1 in the OP, it's because of how far the vocal minority here is allowed to go. I'm even willing to admit that most people here are reasonable, even if they have viewpoints that I personally disagree with, but there's a certain volume of content churned out by a very small but very vocal group of people who seem intent on dominating certain topics.

Now, to be completely fair, I had this problem to a certain extent with oldGAF, too. The only real thing that changed between oldGAF and newGAF is that the vocal minority shifted from alt-left to alt-right. You can deny the alt-right shift all you want, but that vocal minority is very real and very active. And while the alt-left is certainly obnoxious and they made me tear my hair out on the goddamn regular, they weren't advocating things like stripping people of their personal freedoms or promoting sympathy towards pedophiles.

And at least alt-left oldGAF frequently had receipts when I challenged them for some. I would almost always disagree with the conclusion they drew from said receipts, but they did have them. How many times have you guys seen me here on newGAF ask people for literally any shred of factual evidence to back up their claims, only to be screamed and hollered at with no links provided? It's a problem. And that's why I often walk away from threads exasperated and lamenting how far the level of discourse on this site has fallen. It's a matter of informed idiocy vs mindless idiocy, and I can't abide willfully ignorant hatred the same way I can tolerate authoritarian leftists pushing a stupid agenda.

Everything that Soul said about the gaming side of the forum is legit, though.

 

[prag16]

As someone who's often guilty of #1 in the OP, it's because of how far the vocal minority here is allowed to go. I'm even willing to admit that most people here are reasonable, even if they have viewpoints that I personally disagree with, but there's a certain volume of content churned out by a very small but very vocal group of people who seem intent on dominating certain topics.

Now, to be completely fair, I had this problem to a certain extent with oldGAF, too. The only real thing that changed between oldGAF and newGAF is that the vocal minority shifted from alt-left to alt-right. You can deny the alt-right shift all you want, but that vocal minority is very real and very active. And while the alt-left is certainly obnoxious and they made me tear my hair out on the goddamn regular, they weren't advocating things like stripping people of their personal freedoms or promoting sympathy towards pedophiles.

And at least alt-left oldGAF frequently had receipts when I challenged them for some. I would almost always disagree with the conclusion they drew from said receipts, but they did have them. How many times have you guys seen me here on newGAF ask people for literally any shred of factual evidence to back up their claims, only to be screamed and hollered at with no links provided? It's a problem. And that's why I often walk away from threads exasperated and lamenting how far the level of discourse on this site has fallen. It's a matter of informed idiocy vs mindless idiocy, and I can't abide willfully ignorant hatred the same way I can tolerate authoritarian leftists pushing a stupid agenda.

Everything that Soul said about the gaming side of the forum is legit, though.

...What???? The people here lately who have perpetually had no receipts are the ones claiming this is now an alt-right bastion. Not the other way around. What active alt-right? Where are they? Asked where this mysterious alt-right domination is manifesting, nobody ever has any answers. What willfully ignorant hatred? Who is doing that here? If you find them, I'll stand side by side with you and condemn them. But I already checked all the closets, under the bed, in the pantry, in Evilore's shower (oops sorry misunderstanding, I'll see myself out) even under the rug, and I haven't found the alt-right bogeymen that a small handful of posters here have been lamenting as of late.