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The Elder Scrolls Lore Thread

Oh wow! What a great idea for an OT! Good job on the thread, Valhelm!

Back in 2001, I was so immersed in the Elder Scrolls lore. Morrowind was my first TES and could not have enough of it. (I finished the main quest TWICE.) I used to read the Imperial Library website and other related fan sites and just gulp it all down.

I even had my own fansite, called The Daily Vivec, hosted on RPGplanet. I think it's still up. Man, good times.

I was never that obsessed with Oblivion and Skyrim though because adult life took over.
 
I really, really, really hope that the next Elder Scrolls numbered game is set in the Summerset Isles and Pyandonea. It would such a marvelous contrast, between the cultivated Altmer and the lawless, primitive Sea Elves.

In my imagination, the cities of the Altmer have an Art Nouveu aesthetic, and are vaguely reminiscent of the Eiffel Tower. From what we know, their buildings are all made of glass and iron, and "look like an insect's wing". Given that 200 years have passed since Oblivion, and the Summerset Isles were the only part of Tamriel to not go to shit, I like to think that the province has been taken over by magical technology. I really hope there are huge factories that utilize magical skill alongside machinery, and giant, Dwemer-like mechanisms used for the scientific study and manipulation of magic.

And I love to think that the Maormer are very alien, with black eyes and webbed feet, and vicious claws and teeth. Hopefully they look more like Orcs than High Elves. Being able to explore Pyandonea would be incredible.
As long as I get to destroy the Thalmor from within. Hate them so much.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
As long as I get to destroy the Thalmor from within. Hate them so much.

I hate that the game doesn't respond much to the player's race. Being an Altmer in a Summerset game should be completely different from being a Redguard, Dunmer, or Argonian.

What if Altmer characters were encouraged to join the Thalmor? This gives the player much more opportunities to sabotage their cataclysmic activities, but also allows them to take part in the destruction of Mundus.
 

Esch

Banned
I hate that the game doesn't respond much to the player's race. Being an Altmer in a Summerset game should be completely different from being a Redguard, Dunmer, or Argonian.

What if Altmer characters were encouraged to join the Thalmor? This gives the player much more opportunities to sabotage their cataclysmic activities, but also allows them to take part in the destruction of Mundus.
Its a logistic thing. Putting in the proper dialogue for these interactions would probably take double the VA. I do wish Speech played a bigger role in the series though.
 

Haunted

Member
It's definitely a respectable body of work. I wonder if we're ever going to see a game that can be vast enough to do this world justice.

I know The Elder Scrolls Online features all of Tamriel, but the pie in the sky dream would be a game that encompasses the whole of Mundus, obviously.

If you think about it, any single province of just one continent was large and detailed enough to be state-of-the art open world games at their time of release - imagine a game that has this full world realised, with you being able to fly over the map in classic FF-style...

It might not even be a question of technical limitations, but simply the man-hours you'd need to invest to build it.
 

Sotha Sil

Member
It might not even be a question of technical limitations, but simply the man-hours you'd need to invest to build it.

Pretty much. The bigger things get, the less detailed they generally become. While more exploration is always great, I would rather see the return of intricate, interconnected factions (yeah, whynotboth.gif and all that). Sorely lacking since Morrowind.
 

Sioen

Member
Looking forward to the next elder scrolls game, wondering what'll happen to the world now that the aldmeri dominion wins the war.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Its a logistic thing. Putting in the proper dialogue for these interactions would probably take double the VA. I do wish Speech played a bigger role in the series though.

I don't think it would be that big of a change. Certain quests would be locked to non-Altmer players, while at the same time non-Altmer characters would be less inclined to cooperate with an Altmer player.
 

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
The Elder Scrolls universe has some of the best lore in WRPG gaming. Going to keep checking on this thread.
 

Esch

Banned
I don't think it would be that big of a change. Certain quests would be locked to non-Altmer players, while at the same time non-Altmer characters would be less inclined to cooperate with an Altmer player.
Hmmm maybe. But if you're talking general character responses that is a looooot of extra VA. Plus I don't think the average player cares about realism and factions or the potential replay value inherent in making race a major factor in TES gameplay. They basically wanna play and beat the main quest.
 

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Love Elder Scroll Lore! And best of all, any retcon or otherwise conflicting account of an event can be hand waved as being the result of a Dragon Break which is how all the endings of Daggerfall are all canon at once. See: The Warp in the West
You mean like when PCs get crowned Emperor every week or so in ESO? :p

I love how, by Skrym, it fully goes sci-fi fantasy.
How's that? You referring to the Dwemer or the way the Elder Scrolls function?
 

Valhelm

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So if there are only 9 gods, how do demigods fit in, for example Vivec?

There are a shitton of gods, but only eight or nine are directly worshiped by the majority of the population. Magnus, the sun, is held as a god, but isn't considered one of the Eight.
 

Esch

Banned
So if there are only 9 gods, how do demigods fit in, for example Vivec?
The divines are really just one set of gods. Religion in TES is confusing because its left open to interpretation how powerful or influential the divines or other gods are in rhe games and lore. Honestly, I would go far enough to claim that the Daedric princes have a more direct and pivotal effect on Mundus and the races in it than the Aedra do. I kind of wish the series would focus more quests on the Aedra, and really hope that the next game doesnt fall back on the doomsday scenario as a main quest again. That shit is boring.

Edit: UESP is clearly better for lore but the Elder Scrolls wikia is alright too; I think its great regarding pictures and occasionally quest info.
 

Reyne

Member
You mean like when PCs get crowned Emperor every week or so in ESO? :p

Possibly. Though to be fair, the lore of the Elder Scrolls is often vague and deals with huge time spans, in where you have to assume that there will be misinformation, propaganda, false myths and forgotten rulers. Particulary from a hectic time such as the Interregnum where "lore" states that petty rulers took turn in ruling Cyrodiil (or at least trying ).
 
I hate that the game doesn't respond much to the player's race. Being an Altmer in a Summerset game should be completely different from being a Redguard, Dunmer, or Argonian.

What if Altmer characters were encouraged to join the Thalmor? This gives the player much more opportunities to sabotage their cataclysmic activities, but also allows them to take part in the destruction of Mundus.


Thing about TES is how they occasionally write lore that’s so ambitious they often write themselves into a corner. Take the Khajiit scenario in Skyrim, for example. Here you have a race that for all intents and purposes is shunned as drug-dealers and thieves. The caravans tell you they’re not allowed inside the city walls, and yet if the player is a Khajiit they can walk around as they please and even become Thane. Now that’s not necessarily a complaint since the game would be pretty lame if you weren’t allowed into cities, but just an example of Bethesda having to make allowances in lore for gameplay convenience. I think we’d experience the same disconnect in the Summerset Isles. You hear reports of the Altmer outright enslaving beastfolk over there and yet if a game took place there you’d have to be allowed to explore with some form of freedom and agency. It’s for this reason that I don’t think we’ll ever see a game take place in Summerset. I think the next TES game, and the final stand against the Thalmor, will happen in Hammerfell.
 

Reyne

Member
That's just baloney. Or is Azura responsible for giving the prophecy in the first place?

Maybe... but Azura is a Daedra and they can't help themselves from making the lives a little more intolerable for the inhabitants of the Nirn. :p ( At least for those that don't worship them. )
 

bengraven

Member
Ah, the thread I've meant to make for like 5 years but worried I wasn't up on my lore enough to do so. Subbing this so hard only the King of England can make me read another thread.

As long as we focus purely on the lore (lvled loot has nothing to do with Akavir, for example, though criticizing the Dragon Break would be on topic), this could be my favorite thread since the Tolkien and research threads.
 

Alric

Member
I love the lore for the Dwemer. They are not extinct, just gone. Gone from this plane of existence as we know it for the time being. I always hope that Bethesda will release a game or expansion in which the Dwemer come back because they are so effin powerful from all the lore you can read.
 

Darkmakaimura

Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
I mentioned UESP in my OP. Both wikis are pretty legitimate. I prefer UESP for lore shit, but it's ugly as sin and doesn't have much information on gameplay.
I always felt the other way around and I like Wikia. UESP just feels like it has more substance and they claim to have been around since 1995 plus the ads are a little less intrusive. Again, I like Wikia but I know people who actually won't visit it because of their ads and layout and some saying they got viruses/malware from it, the latter which has never happened with me. Kinda sad because I had game wiki on Wikia that some people refuse to visit as a result of it being hosted there.
 

Lautaro

Member
I remember being so obsessed with the Hearth of Lorkhan while playing Morrowind, I just wanted to become a god even if Dagoth Ur was still at large (a fight of gods for the ending would have been sweet).

So... what happened to Vivec (the god, not the city) after the volcano eruption?

--o--

I bet the Dwemer will return... and with our luck they will be allies with the Thalmor.

And regarding the Thalmor, that rumour of they wanting to "destroy the world" instead of conquering it was just fanwank or what?
 

Esch

Banned
Has the Elder Scrolls Lore Series by ShoddyCast been posted yet? I just marathoned through these well produced videos during the weekend and would highly recommend it for beginners.

Ah, thanks for that. It reminded me why the Daedra are so relatively powerful. I still think the Aedra should have more quests and presence though. I wanna see what an Aedroth looks like (akatosh aside)
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
Has the Elder Scrolls Lore Series by ShoddyCast been posted yet? I just marathoned through these well produced videos during the weekend and would highly recommend it for beginners.

Was gonna say that OP should link these.

Anyway, TES series has always had fantastic lore it just does a very poor job integrating that lore in the main game and story. Morrowind did this the best you learned pretty much everything you needed to know about the Dunmer, the Tribunal, Lorkhan, Kagrenac, etc. all though playing the main storyline and it kept you interested throughout. Skyrim did a better job than Oblivion and made sure you fully understood most of what you needed to know about Talos/Tiber Septim and Dragons but failed integrating everything else.

For a series like TES it's hard to integrate their lore into the story due to the open nature of the game as even main plots can be ignored and entire side quests missed. However, Morrowind proves it can be done though they really should take a lesson from BioWare which does an excellent job with each of its games integrating the lore. I also feel like they should simply allow for a Codex that explains things, it could still be in the form of a book written by people in the world but organized to help you understand things better. The Dragon Age series does this and it works very well.
 

Esch

Banned
But that's how it should be. In real life you don't learn about "Lore" ie history, religion, etc etc by having people all explain it to you in real life as you pass through life. Even if you are an important person (a real life Nerevarine equivalent). You have to learn these things by reading and being schooled. Or you can ignore all that shit and go kill dragons. Thats the beauty of TES lore. You can dive into it as much as you want. Now, if you're contending that the games should include a lore education system present in the form of colleges, oral traditions, and the mage schools I might be inclined to agree.
 
Ooh, nice idea for a thread. Subbed! Don't forget The Imperial Library for some good lore stuff.

So... what happened to Vivec (the god, not the city) after the volcano eruption?

And regarding the Thalmor, that rumour of they wanting to "destroy the world" instead of conquering it was just fanwank or what?

Vivec disappeared before the Red Mountain erupted. Either he was killed by the Nerevarine, or he just departed Tamriel, sources are unclear. Whatever the case, it's his disappearance that actually caused the eruption: it was his power holding the Ministry of Truth (the giant floating rock above Vivec City) in place. In old times, that was a rock hurled at the city from Oblivion, and Vivec stopped it with magic. With him gone, the rock slowly started to resume its descent towards the city.

The Dunmer initially built a device to keep the Ministry afloat. That machine, called an Ingenium, required souls to function, however. Eventually one Dunmer rebelled against the usage of the machine, sabotaged it, and caused the rock to crash into the city, completely leveling it. The shockwaves of that impact caused the Red Mountain to erupt, and, presumably, caused the Great Collapse so many years later as well.

Those events are further explained in the two TES novels that have been released. Definitely read them if you haven't already.

As for the Thalmor, they don't want to destroy the world, they want to return it to the way it was in the Merethic era. In that time, Elves were immortal and time flowed in practically every direction at once, putting the Elves in almost direct contact with the gods. The Aldmeri Dominion's motive in its purest form is simple: a return to those times. In order to do that, they have to get rid of humans, and what better way to start than with the human that ascended to godhood: Talos.

What are all your thoughts on the idea of Amaranth? Have any of you read Michael Kirkbride's Loveletter?

I was gonna post about the Loveletter, as it's probably one of the more interesting things out there, canon-wise, right now. Michael Kirkbride is an evil, insane genius. The letter is pretty much unintelligible, so many people have read so many different things into it. I've read stuff about the disappearance of magic, among other things. I really don't know what to make of it, myself. It could be about the impending end of the world, as it's Mundus destiny to be 'recycled'. This is touched upon in Skyrim, actually, because Alduin supposedly has to destroy the world, fulfilling his destiny as World-Eater, but he strayed from that path a long time ago.

The letter refers to some of the things established in the early fourth era, like the area around the ruined Vivec City now being called the Scathing Bay.
 

Valhelm

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But that's how it should be. In real life you don't learn about "Lore" ie history, religion, etc etc by having people all explain it to you in real life as you pass through life. Even if you are an important person (a real life Nerevarine equivalent). You have to learn these things by reading and being schooled. Or you can ignore all that shit and go kill dragons. Thats the beauty of TES lore. You can dive into it as much as you want. Now, if you're contending that the games should include a lore education system present in the form of colleges, oral traditions, and the mage schools I might be inclined to agree.

I think it's kind of cool how most characters are really ignorant about the lore, in the same way that most people are pretty ignorant about ancient history and complex religious dogma.
 

Esch

Banned
I think it's kind of cool how most characters are really ignorant about the lore, in the same way that most people are pretty ignorant about ancient history and complex religious dogma.
Yep. I actually just realized that the Skyrim devs missed out on something big with the Bards College. They could have made it a real faction with lore education and instead its a bunch of fetch quests.
 
I think it's kind of cool how most characters are really ignorant about the lore, in the same way that most people are pretty ignorant about ancient history and complex religious dogma.

And then you encounter the people who actually know stuff, and they've gone completely batshit insane with the knowledge. Just look at Septimus in Skyrim.

Knowledge and madness are two sides of the same coin in the TES world. There's a reason the Daedric Prince of Knowledge is a writhing mass of tentacles and eyes.

Yep. I actually just realized that the Skyrim devs missed out on something big with the Bards College. They could have made it a real faction with lore education and instead its a bunch of fetch quests.

The Bard's College was underdeveloped, yeah, but it actually showcases something great about TES lore. When you discover the poem about Olaf One-Eye, it's incomplete, and it's up to you to fill in the gaps. There's no defining lore about him, you have to give your own interpretation to it. History is written by the historian.

So if there are only 9 gods, how do demigods fit in, for example Vivec?

'Gods' is a bit of a broad term. There's plenty more than nine of them. The Nine Divines are just the pantheon of Aedra worshipped by the Empire. Daedric Princes could be considered 'gods', as could the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur. Lorkhan was a god, and he died.

There's basically two distinctions between divine creatures: you have the Aedra and the Daedra. Most Aedra reside in Aetherius. The Daedra reside in Oblivion. Aedra tend to keep out of mortal affairs, only occasionally influencing things through indirect means (Akatosh does this often, for instance through anointing a Dragonborn), but sometimes by physically manifesting themselves on Nirn (think Talos appearing as Wulf in Ghostgate at the end of Morrowind, or Akatosh coming in to throw Mehrunes Dagon back into Oblivion at the end of that game). Daedra take a more direct interest in mortal affairs, but, as a rule, are often a lot more malevolent, or simply uncaring, when it comes to their mortal subjects.

Also could anyone help me understand the whole Anticipations business? There are dudes that used to be goddesses, or the other way around? wut

The Anticipations were the Daedra that were worshipped by the original Dunmer, and which the Tribunal used to assert their power over the Dunmer They were Boethiah, Mephala, and Azura. Their worship was eventually outlawed, and the priests that did worship them were dubbed 'the Dissident Priests'. Azura was the one who turned the Chimer into Dunmer and foretold the coming of the Nerevarine. When the Tribunal died (or disappeared, in the case of Vivec), the Temple underwent a power struggle, with the Dissident Priests eventually ending on top. They outlawed worship of the Tribunal and reinstated the doctrines of the Anticipations, now calling them 'The Reclamations'.
 
Also could anyone help me understand the whole Anticipations business? There are dudes that used to be goddesses, or the other way around? wut
That Anticipations are the Daedra that the Tribunal used to justify their godhead, to legitimize their "divine" status.
 
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