Support NeoGAF

[The Scrivener]

You don't own it in any way regardless of what distribution method you choose. You own a limited license to use and in the case of physical a media kit worth about 25 cents.

You must be fun at parties.

How is your point a good one?

you can't have much of a conversation about "game ownership".

Games on physical media cannot be taken away from the user, unless initiated by the publisher through the Internet.

Hence, game collections used to exist before the days of digital licensing bs.

Ownership is a red herring maybe?

The point is there is a game, I paid for it, it works, until one day someone on the other side of the world decides it doesn't work.

I don't care that EPIC own the rights to Rage Against the Machine's debut album sitting in my garage shelf. It fucking rocks when I play it on the hi-fi in my garage. Always will.

 

[Chozofication_]

Except most people disagree with this particular obvious, at least every time it comes up on this forum. If you don't understand software licensing you can't have much of a conversation about "game ownership".

I own the disc. Not that hard to understand, but for a tool I suppose...

 

[ViolentP]

That's fucked up. Still staying all digital, however.

 

[Nymphae]

You don't own it in any way regardless of what distribution method you choose.

How do I not own the discs on my shelf that allow me to play the game content that is stored on them whenever I want? When people say they own a game, this is what they mean. Have legal ownership of a product that can access the content.

My question to you people who always pop into these threads to make that ridiculously obvious point is, what do you think people in here meant when they said they owned a game? Do you literally think they are asserting ownership over the game IP or something? It's so ridiculously pedantic to come into these threads about digital vs physical ownership and state that physical copies are not owning a product but a licence, it's like you're completely missing the point in these arguments about why people prefer the physical product.

 

[Husky]

Hmm, maybe you guys are right, I was sure I tried to get it again in the past and iI wasn't able to, but maybe I'm just confusing the news of the game itself being delisted for purchase.

Either way, I think that is shitty enough that that can happen because of rights or license issues. If you missed the physical release of a game in the past, you could buy it used somewhere. Where can you acquire digital only content that has been pulled from stores if you didn't already pay for it?

Yeah, it's pretty garbage that none of my friends can grab Scott Pilgrim now. I was lucky enough to *happen* to buy the game's DLC during its very last sale, including it's online MP DLC, but what with the game being unavailable for purchase, there aren't many people to use that DLC with...

 

[Woo-Fu]

I own the disc. Not that hard to understand, but for a tool I suppose...

The disc is a media kit. It isn't software. I guess that makes you the tool since you can't understand it. You own the media kit and limited use license for the software it contains. You don't own the software.

People unwilling to understand how licensing work don't have a foot to stand on when complaining about it.

 

[BTHR Zero X]

So what happens to the physical disc editions of these games? I believe they only have episode 1 included on them and then they download off of the console game server to access the others. I saw Season 2 in Target yesterday for Switch/Xbox/PS4. Can you imagine someone buying this in a few weeks taking it home and not working? I don't think Target or other big box stores allow you to return a game after it has been opened.

If this is true that you can no longer download the game, even if you own it, this is going to be a huge mess.

Not sure about The base disc for season 1 or even season two. But the Complete Adventure Disc as all episodes of season 1+dlc on disc.

Edit: See this has come up a few times so I made a list of the Discs I recently purchased to see what Telltale Games actually have on disc.


Note: These are all UK PS3 Retail Discs.

Well now that I own all but Standard Minecraft Story Mode, and Standard Walking Dead Season 1, I can confirm the following.

Back to the Future : BLES-01596 : Contains Episode 1-5 All on Disc.
Batman The Telltale Series : BLES-02245 : Contains Episode 1 on Disc, and Episode 2-5 as Download.
Game of Thrones : BLES-02215 : Contains Episode 1-5 All on Disc, and Episode 6 as Download.
Minecraft Story Mode The Complete Adventure : BLES-02246 : Contains Episode 1-5 and DLC Episode 6-8 All on Disc.
The Walking Dead Season 1 Game of the Year Edition : BLES-01975 : Contains Episode 1-5 and 400 Days All on Disc.
The Walking Dead Season 2 : BLES-02099 : Contains Episode 1-5 All on Disc.
The Wolf Among Us : BLES-02098 : Contains Episode 1-5 All on Disc.

 

[ViolentP]

How do I not own the discs on my shelf that allow me to play the game content that is stored on them whenever I want? When people say they own a game, this is what they mean. Have legal ownership of a product that can access the content.

My question to you people who always pop into these threads to make that ridiculously obvious point is, what do you think people in here meant when they said they owned a game? Do you literally think they are asserting ownership over the game IP or something? It's so ridiculously pedantic to come into these threads about digital vs physical ownership and state that physical copies are not owning a product but a licence, it's like you're completely missing the point in these arguments about why people prefer the physical product.

To me, it seems like people are incorrectly using the term "own" when discussing physical media. What they really mean is while we are all susceptible to having the product we paid good money revoked from us, circumventing that issue is easier to deal with on physical. Doesn't make the situation any less fucked for either party, honestly. We should be demanding our money back, not busying ourselves with pissing contests.

 

[Hendrick's]

Telltale games deserve to disappear.

 

[FranXico]

You don't own it in any way regardless of what distribution method you choose. You own a limited license to use and in the case of physical a media kit worth about 25 cents.

The difference is that by virtue of the physical media, your license is transferrable or tradeable.

 

[mckmas8808]

Either you want to admit it or not, if you are in favor of an all digital future, you are in favor of companies screwing their clients. We had other similar cases too, where games were removed either because the online service ended (wii shop), because of licensing problems (alan wake, Scott pilgrim, etc...) or simply because the companies are trash, like Konami (removal of P.T).

You are giving money for something that can be easily taken away from you, hell, it was never yours to begin with. Let's not forget about the stories of people that lost their PSN accounts, and thousands of dollars were thrown away, just like that.

Overall, going digital only has much more cons than pros, and in my opinion it should be an option only, we should always have the choice of physical versions.

THANK YOU!!!!! Now explain this to video game podcasters and the gaming media next, because they mostly seem clueless to these facts.

 

[The Scrivener]

The disc is a media kit. It isn't software. I guess that makes you the tool since you can't understand it. You own the media kit and limited use license for the software it contains. You don't own the software.

People unwilling to understand how licensing work don't have a foot to stand on when complaining about it.

And...?

Try defending that in the real world. Maybe it works now in extreme cases, but as users in this thread have noted, this might be the first time that a game has gone completely (Minecraft nonetheless) and platform holders might have to come up with a better answer than "you still got your piece of plastic that you paid for".

Surely we are not paying for a piece of plastic. If that was the case I'd go down the shop, buy a blank disc for 10 cents, take it home, scribble MINECRAFT STORY MODE SEASONS 1 & 2 EDITION on it in permanent marker, flush 20 quid down the toilet, grab my Elite Controller and a beer, and cross my fingers. Hell, it'd probably be more fun at least.

That's what you're saying, morally.

Legally, you may be right, but morally it's wrong.

At least as best as my non-lawyer brain can comedically explain.

 

[TLZ]

Many European and Australian lawsuits coming their way. I love sensible consumer protection laws.

I hope something gets done about digital purchases.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

I had Hollowknight digitally, but when I saw them releasing a physical copy, I was ecstatic. Not only would I be able to use it on my other switch, on different accounts, I’d save 4-5 gigs of space and have a perfect, complete edition always available. Bought it, and the first thing it does is download a 1.7 gig patch.

 

[MMaRsu]

Ok, and when those services go offline, what then?

I'll probably be dead before then

 

[Nymphae]

To me, it seems like people are incorrectly using the term "own" when discussing physical media.

I don't see how really, people asserting that they own a game, in my opinion, do.

They are simply saying they have legal ownership of a product that provides access to the content in question. Movies, books, tv show releases, games, etc. When someone says "I own that", that's all they mean, they own a thing that lets them play/access/enjoy the content, and I have no idea why every time this comes up, dude comes in to say "you don't actually own that." Like did I say I own the IP?

 

[RedVIper]

Turns out piracy is the only real way to preserve games.

Atleast until streaming games along, then we're all fucked anyway.

 

[Hendrick's]

To all you physical hold outs, keep fighting the good fight. I mean, you have no chance of winning, but maybe if you all cry loud enough, we will all get better digital rights in the end.

 

[Whitesnake]

Minecraft Story Mode will not be missed. Telltale games aren't so much games as they are poorly-animated movies where you can sometimes press a button vaguely change a future conversation. I've never spent money on a telltale game because I can get the full experience by just watching a walkthrough.

However, digital games being lost forever is absolutely a concern. After all these years, the HD versions of Marvel vs Capcom 2 and JJBA: Heritage for the Future still haven't been put back up. Can't even download them. They are lost forever.

Which especially sucks, because:

1. Those are two of the best fighting games of all time.
2. They brought UMvC3 back and ported it to PS4, so we know for sure that they have the rights for MvC2 HD.
3. The PSN HD version of JJBA was the best way to play that game.
4. Now the only way to legally play faithful versions of those games anymore is to hunt down rare overpriced Dreamcast versions or buy entire fucking arcade cabinets.
5. There will never be a good Jojo fighting game ever again.
6. There will never be a good MvC ever again.

I'm still upset.

 

[ViolentP]

I don't see how really, people asserting that they own a game, in my opinion, do.

They are simply saying they have legal ownership of a product that provides access to the content in question. Movies, books, tv show releases, games, etc. When someone says "I own that", that's all they mean, they own a thing that lets them play/access/enjoy the content, and I have no idea why every time this comes up, dude comes in to say "you don't actually own that." Like did I say I own the IP?

It's funny because I always parsed it slightly differently. Personally, the only difference I see nowadays between physical and digital is that if developers shut down servers, it would be easier to trick the system with a physical copy. This however has nothing to do with ownership. If the servers are shut down, ownership is not a factor for any of us. We have been demonstrated the fact that be it physical or digital, none of us own the game if we cannot freely use it.

I don't have any interest in physical media anymore and I understand that if services are shut down, it may be easier to keep my investment if I went physical. Being digital, I will probably be locked out. This however is not a problem with the medium, it's a problem with the system and physical has a backdoor it could use but is still getting fucked, truth be told.

That's one of the reasons I dig GoG. I am free to keep digital copies of all my purchases for safekeeping.

 

[Chozofication_]

To all you physical hold outs, keep fighting the good fight. I mean, you have no chance of winning, but maybe if you all cry loud enough, we will all get better digital rights in the end.

Companies have no chance of winning ME over actually. If physical disappears I just won't buy anymore.

 

[nush]

It's worth bearing in mind that many digital games simply could not have been made available without the cost saving of digital distribution.

 

[Mexen]

What if I buy physical games but never connect to the Internet?

 

[ViolentP]

What if I buy physical games but never connect to the Internet?

Not sure how common the practice is these days but games can certainly require platform firmware upgrades to function.

 

[PhoenixTank]

Well yeah thats what confused me. I have a load of games on Steam that dont even have a Steam page anymore as the games have been delisted, you can still download them though.

Same here. This is a weird departure from the what I experience as the norm on PC (well, Steam & GoG)
What usually happens to delisted digital games you have paid money for, ConsoleGaf?

 

[The Scrivener]

People unwilling to understand how licensing work don't have a foot to stand on when complaining about it.

As this is an enthusiast forum, it's good that you provide these facts, I don't want to come across as argumentative.

However, there's nothing stopping the industry from putting all the content on Blu-ray (or whatever the industry standard is). My Sony DVD player will never stop me playing DVDs I'm sure. I'm not talking about online multi-player type games, I think everyone is OK with those going offline. This is a single player game on disc that should work forever. Publishers use of the phrase "no longer support" is just bs and can't be legal. Do better gaming industry.

 

[Hendrick's]

Companies have no chance of winning ME over actually. If physical disappears I just won't buy anymore.

I don't believe you.

What if I buy physical games but never connect to the Internet?

You will have games that are unplayable without day one patches.

 

[Nymphae]

You will have games that are unplayable without day one patches.

What are some examples of games that are literally unplayable without patches? Games used to ship complete, with some number of unavoidable bugs of course. Now they ship before they're ready, and to hear some people talk about it, we'd all be fucked without this digital ecosystem. Yeah or they could do their job right when they put it on the disc.

 

[PennywisetheDancingClown]

Minecraft was the one I didn't like enough to continue. I guess I'll never be able to pressure myself into completing it now.

Physical > Digital.

 

[jshackles]

I think maybe you guys are reading too much into the statement that was made by Minecraft / Telltale regarding this particular game.

The confusion comes in because on Consoles, some PC outlets, and mobile - if you buy the season pass or the "Season Pass Disc", you don't automatically "own" each episode until you download it. Once you own the game on that platform, you should be able to re-download it at any time. They're just trying to make sure you have all the stuff you've paid for before it gets pulled from the digital storefronts and that's no longer possible. I know that on PSN specifically, I even got a $0.00 receipt email after "purchasing" each episode of Guardians of the Galaxy (for example).

If you have the Season Pass disc, you can download the episodes now that will tie them to your account going forward.

I suppose we'll wait and see if what OP fears actually comes to pass, but we can probably put down the pitchforks for the short term.

 

[Hendrick's]

What are some examples of games that are literally unplayable without patches? Games used to ship complete, with some number of unavoidable bugs of course. Now they ship before they're ready, and to hear some people talk about it, we'd all be fucked without this digital ecosystem. Yeah or they could do their job right when they put it on the disc.

I don't know of any SP games that are completely unplayable without a day one patch, but many are broken to the point where it isn't much different. There have been many online focused games with offline components that are unplayable, like Black Ops 4, but get a pass because they are essentially online games. Day one patch abuse is only getting worse and I don't see any viability in an offline, physical media only solution.

 

[Chozofication_]

I don't believe you.


You will have games that are unplayable without day one patches.

The last dlc I bought was for Mario kart 8 in 2014. The last digital game was even before that.

I'd rather learn a new language, instrument, become Bruce Lee whatever lol than buy digital games if its my only option.

 

[KellyNole]

But you have a choice to patch it or not. They aren't going to come to your house and take the physical disc

But you have the option to download the game to a hard drive too.

 

[Hendrick's]

The last dlc I bought was for Mario kart 8 in 2014. The last digital game was even before that.

I'd rather learn a new language, instrument, become Bruce Lee whatever lol than buy digital games if its my only option.

I mean, I'm sure there are a minuscule amount of people out there that would quit gaming for real if it went all digital, and maybe you are one of them, but there is also a huge amount of people who say they would, but never actually would.

 

[Fuz]

Either you want to admit it or not, if you are in favor of an all digital future, you are in favor of companies screwing their clients. We had other similar cases too, where games were removed either because the online service ended (wii shop), because of licensing problems (alan wake, Scott pilgrim, etc...) or simply because the companies are trash, like Konami (removal of P.T).

You are giving money for something that can be easily taken away from you, hell, it was never yours to begin with. Let's not forget about the stories of people that lost their PSN accounts, and thousands of dollars were thrown away, just like that.

Overall, going digital only has much more cons than pros, and in my opinion it should be an option only, we should always have the choice of physical versions.

This.
Digitals has its advantages, that's for sure. But it's a backdoor to terrible, draconian business practices and removal of consumers' rights.

Many European and Australian lawsuits coming their way. I love sensible consumer protection laws.

Technically possible and I would like it, but I doubt anyone would care enough for this to happen.

 

[Nymphae]

I don't know of any SP games that are completely unplayable without a day one patch, but many are broken to the point where it isn't much different.

As someone who plays mostly single player games outside of fighting games, I've never really been that worried about my games shipping totally broken, never really had it happen to me, not sure what games you're talking about. Though I would imagine this would happen less if companies were unable to patch things post release.

Day one patch abuse is only getting worse and I don't see any viability in an offline, physical media only solution.

I'd prefer a world where people shipped final physical product, and don't have the crutch of being able to finish their games post-release, but yeah, that is never going to happen now, especially with a good percentage of gamers who don't see the benefits of physical and actively want digital to take over.

 

[The Scrivener]

I'll probably be dead before then

June 25th 2019?

Why leave so soon?

Predictions about digital game purchases being worthless are just coming true!

 

[DanielsM]

The disc is a media kit. It isn't software. I guess that makes you the tool since you can't understand it. You own the media kit and limited use license for the software it contains. You don't own the software.

People unwilling to understand how licensing work don't have a foot to stand on when complaining about it.

Yes and no. I mean software licensing is actually a fairly new concept meaning 30-40 years, very little litigation at high levels in the United States. My issue is, if we use your generally definition than to me when they say they are "selling" something they really aren't, they are either leasing/renting something. So, to me its more a false advertising more than anything. Furthermore, if they sell to a child the license agreement isn't even a thing, so what did a store sell the child? Nothing?

But let's not pretend either way any of this is completely settled at all, there needs to be more legislation on this subject. I don;t think anyone actually believes they own the actual code, but they do at the minimum own a copy to do what they wish with it, generally speaking.

Let's just give you an example, via fair use... if a game has been abandoned, its completely possible to alter the software so that say multiplayer works. Just becomes a developer says what the terms are, doesn't make them the sole decision maker.

 

[Mihos]

TIL, I just made about $500 on e-bay selling games I don't own.

 

[The Scrivener]

I think maybe you guys are reading too much into the statement that was made by Minecraft / Telltale regarding this particular game.

The confusion comes in because on Consoles, some PC outlets, and mobile - if you buy the season pass or the "Season Pass Disc", you don't automatically "own" each episode until you download it. Once you own the game on that platform, you should be able to re-download it at any time. They're just trying to make sure you have all the stuff you've paid for before it gets pulled from the digital storefronts and that's no longer possible. I know that on PSN specifically, I even got a $0.00 receipt email after "purchasing" each episode of Guardians of the Galaxy (for example).

If you have the Season Pass disc, you can download the episodes now that will tie them to your account going forward.

I suppose we'll wait and see if what OP fears actually comes to pass, but we can probably put down the pitchforks for the short term.

Ah.

Most informative post yet.

It will take someone willing to lose some money to see if this is true.

If you are correct I withdraw my argument.

 

[Digity]

I don't see how really, people asserting that they own a game, in my opinion, do.

They are simply saying they have legal ownership of a product that provides access to the content in question. Movies, books, tv show releases, games, etc. When someone says "I own that", that's all they mean, they own a thing that lets them play/access/enjoy the content, and I have no idea why every time this comes up, dude comes in to say "you don't actually own that." Like did I say I own the IP?

This old chestnut again eh.

 

[Virex]

But you have the option to download the game to a hard drive too.

Can't download a digital game to your hard drive if there is no digital game anymore to download because it was removed from a store.

 

[NickFire]

Yeah this is a really bad look for the digital future and for MS in my opinion. Telltale's issues are irrelevant to me when something using the Minecraft IP can't be maintained in a state that simply allows purchasers to re-download it.

 

[MMaRsu]

Can't download a digital game to your hard drive if there is no digital game anymore to download because it was removed from a store.

With what games and services has this happened?

i can redownload all 360 stuff that isnt available anymore.

 

[Nymphae]

With what games and services has this happened?

The Scott Pilgram game, while apparently available to redownload if you purchased, is no longer listed on the store. You cannot acquire this game now if you had not paid for it during the window it was available. If it had a physical release, you'd be able to buy used copies.

 

[Virex]

With what games and services has this happened?

i can redownload all 360 stuff that isnt available anymore.

Wiishop

And if you actually went through the trouble of reading what OP posted you will see :

"If you have purchased these seasons, please download all remaining episodes prior to the service being discontinued in June."

 

[DanielsM]

With what games and services has this happened?

i can redownload all 360 stuff that isnt available anymore.

Microsoft Games for Windows Live but you might have difficulty getting your games downloaded and working if the developer didn't patch out GFWL, here is some information. I'm not going to say impossible but very hard to get some of these games downloaded and working.

How to Make "Games for Windows LIVE" Games Playable on Windows 10

Many old PC games seem to work fine on Windows 10, but games using Microsoft's failed Games for Windows LIVE (GFWL) platform are an exception.

www.howtogeek.com

People can't re-download their original Xbox content, this was discontinued in 2010.

Xbox 360 is still functional and supported.

 

[mckmas8808]

To all you physical hold outs, keep fighting the good fight. I mean, you have no chance of winning, but maybe if you all cry loud enough, we will all get better digital rights in the end.

Why you mad at physical hold outs? Isn't this the best place to be in? Where you have a choice between digital or/and physical? Why do you personally want digital only?

 

[Mexen]

Not sure how common the practice is these days but games can certainly require platform firmware upgrades to function.

I imagine it isn't. And that's a good point. Hadn't thought about it.

 

[lock2k]

Why you mad at physical hold outs? Isn't this the best place to be in? Where you have a choice between digital or/and physical? Why do you personally want digital only?

I don't think he is mad. I think is is praising the physical hold outs in a way.