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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)

gmoran

Member
I was sure I'd read and seen it mentioned that PSVRs screen was curved, after furious googling I must have been imagining it, sorry about that!

As for what drives PSVR vs PC, yeah definitely the PC solutions will be better in most cases, unless someones using lower than recommended specs. I still think the way people are talking, as if to dismiss PSVR as operating in the same ball park is incredibly disingenuous. Most of the VR games shown off for the Rift or Vive have relatively basic graphics as well, and games like Rigs are pushing above their weight, certainly better looking than many expected possible in PSVR, what with all the talk of early PS3 or even PS2 level graphics lol.

PSVR is not that far behind PCVR. I'm sure that will change in a couple of years or so of course. The quality of the VR experiences is no worse than Rift or Vive, it's not like Gear VR or something. Vive has more foolproof tracking but Rift is much the same. It's still true VR on PSVR. :)

As I recall it was PSVR presentation last autumn, and there was some confusion around the screen and optics. After some discussion online the consensus was that the screen was flat and there was no increased resolution towards the centre and the presentation was referring to the optics.

Regarding where PSVR sits in the high-end VR ecosystem, I think most of us interested in VR now have a good handle on that (its at the bottom, has earned its "high-end" stripes, is never going to offer room-scale, but is a good value proposition), and I haven't seen much PC Master Race BS in this thread, and where it has appeared its been well and fairly handled by the knowledgeable posters.

This thread is turning out to be a good read.
 

UnrealEck

Member
Pardon me for asking - I really am trying to learn here. It seems that most of the VR trailers I have seen offer fairly shallow gameplay. I think VR will have great racing and flying games but is there anything like The Witcher, Elder Scrolls, Grand Theft Auto, Zelda, etc?

It'll take time for developers to experiment and find what works best.
GTAV and Skyrim can be played using Rift. I'm not sure how well they play though. This is one of the advantages Rift and Vive have. They're PC headsets, so they have everything that's good about PC to support them, including modification of games and software.

So can we expect a Grand Theft Auto or Elder Scrolls or Witcher or experiences like those games for VR anytime soon? Or should I wait a year or two?

Unless you're willing to play modified support for non-VR games, you're best waiting.
The biggest game I can think of that's going to support VR is probably Star Citizen and that's a good way off of being finished.
 

Onemic

Member
So can we expect a Grand Theft Auto or Elder Scrolls or Witcher or experiences like those games for VR anytime soon? Or should I wait a year or two?

Since VR is pretty much like a new medium, I'd expect AAA made for VR games to emerge within 2 years or so.
 

viveks86

Member
So can we expect a Grand Theft Auto or Elder Scrolls or Witcher or experiences like those games for VR anytime soon? Or should I wait a year or two?

If they are coming soon, they'd be announced already. You might get some retrofitted games within the year, but they would be far from ideal experiences. I'd say a massive AAA game built from the ground up for VR is 1-2 years away.

I can totally see CDPR looking at VR for Cyberpunk 2077 for example.
 

Durante

Member
There's something I need to articulate regarding gameplay "depth" and VR. Obviously, a lot of people lament the lack of it with early VR games, but I really think we need to clarify what we mean by the "depth" of gameplay.

As an example, let's choose Budget Cuts. In that game, you throw knives by, well, physically throwing them, or as close as it currently gets. The relative position and movement of your controller 1:1 determines the physical flight path of the knive. What is the "depth" of that? Ultimately, I would argue it's very deep, just like mastering throwing knives in the real world is very deep.

The same thought applies to a lot of things, including even (on the face of it) simpler stuff like e.g. VR Minigolf.
 
I still wonder how many people who agree with this have actually played games in VR for any length of time.

Sitting is great for cockpit experiences obviously, but in pretty much every other traditional game I've ever played in VR I ran into the limitations of DK2 tracking when I wanted to turn around or look at something on the ground more closely.

Hmm, that's right, unlike normal on-ear headphones they don't necessarily need to put any pressure on the ear. I guess I'll see soon enough when my Rift arrives!

Well obviously I have, and do.

DK2 tracking definitely has the problems you talk about though. CV1 is going to fix this in a few ways. Wider FOV camera makes it easier to sit or stand far enough away from it for it to be able to see you from head to toe, and tracking LEDs on the back of the headset are going to be a huge plus.

Driving with a wheel is probably the pinnacle of in home VR right now, even considering VR in terms of believability. It's one thing to use a tool to interact with the world around you, but interacting with the same interface you use to drive a car, and seeing the wheel turn the exact same number of degrees you turn it... well that's something else.

Plus it's an interface most of us already understand so well to do it subconsciously... and then you throw in much better haptics than you can get out of a controller and it gets even better.

I'm not kidding when I say the end goal is going to be robotic exoskeletons or neural implants or whatever. Room scale is the best way today to let people freely explore an environment, but it's only free within whatever bounds you can donate to the experience.

When I think of the three types of VR experience we'll be getting, starting in a couple of weeks, seated, standing and room scale... the one that I think is going to be the most transient is room scale. There's always going to be times I want to just sit down or stand relatively still and focus on a task. Most of the stuff we do in the real world for extended periods of time fit into those kinds of categories as it is.

Very rarely am I being very active in a small space. For stuff like sculpting / painting tools, and table top types of experiences I'm sure room scale will stick around... but people are going to really feel the boundaries. I don't like invisible walls in games.

And even looking at some of the stuff Valve were demoing at GDC I see a lot of experiences that are standing and front facing... like the archery demo (which is maybe at a push a 220 degree experience) and the slingshot demo.

Because it's going to be about what's the most fun... and sometimes that's going to be sitting down with a joypad. Sometimes that's going to be standing relatively still and looking forwards. Sometimes that's going to be 360 degree room scale.

And certainly the Vive is the only headset that supports *all* of those experiences... but I don't think roomscale will replace VR versions of traditional games, or standing types of games.

As exciting as it is that VR is going to allow for very new experiences, and room scale currently has the most potential for that... I think people are overlooking how much VR is going to revitalize the types of games we've already been playing.

But not for much longer. Watching the Tested guys at GDC they've thoroughly enjoyed all the kinds of VR they've tried. No one type more than the other.

Vive is the one to buy if you want all the kinds of experiences and have a suitable space for room scale VR. If you don't, or you're more interested in how VR might improve traditional gaming, then it might make sense to spend less money and get a PSVR or Oculus.

Eitherway I don't think you can go wrong... and eitherway, I think everyone will accommodate whatever becomes popular across all genres and types. If room scale is the thing, I think you'll see Oculus and Sony supporting it... and if that doesn't happen in the first year... I don't think that'll be too damaging to VR or any of the major companies pushing it forwards.

What's most exciting though, is that we're about to see this all play out. It's been far too long since we saw a seismic shift in interactive entertainment.

There's something I need to articulate regarding gameplay "depth" and VR. Obviously, a lot of people lament the lack of it with early VR games, but I really think we need to clarify what we mean by the "depth" of gameplay.

As an example, let's choose Budget Cuts. In that game, you throw knives by, well, physically throwing them, or as close as it currently gets. The relative position and movement of your controller 1:1 determines the physical flight path of the knive. What is the "depth" of that? Ultimately, I would argue it's very deep, just like mastering throwing knives in the real world is very deep.

The same thought applies to a lot of things, including even (on the face of it) simpler stuff like e.g. VR Minigolf.
VR minigolf is going to be awesome. No two ways about it.
 

Cartman86

Banned
hold on - surely there are 360 players already from oculus rift DK times that would work? i assume oculus will have included apps in the oculus store, but i'd also (perhaps foolishly) assumed the same of vive.

360 videos and media playback is important to me, so hopefully it will be well supported at launch

One of the most popular DK2 video players Whirligig is getting SteamVR support.

http://www.whirligig.xyz/blog/
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Unless you're willing to play modified support for non-VR games, you're best waiting.
The biggest game I can think of that's going to support VR is probably Star Citizen and that's a good way off of being finished.

GTAV will actually run well in VR eventually. There is already a mod that decouples gaze from aim from body orientation, the main hang up is that the developer has no motion tracking controllers. In a few weeks, when he gets a vive, he should finally be able to track head, body, and hands all independently. That is a great jumping off point, and where we were with Half Life 2 VR.

Locomotion will always be a problem, but you mainly experience vestibulocochlear disconnect from lateral rotation. You could play GTAVR in a swivel chair or even just stand up and turn IRL and you'd likely feel fine.
 

Man

Member
I haven't seen it mentioned here but it seems like the PS4.5 rumors might be true and there are similar rumblings for Xbox. Nintendo also mentioned something around this from what I've read. The console industry is changing. No more console 'cycles' but iterations that happen every three years or so.

This means that console games will start to be made with forwards & backwards compatibility in mind (games come with built-in or updated with low & high graphics presets & hardware specific stuff).

My ultimate point being: It seems like peripherals like PSVR will no longer be bound to the console cycles themselves.
 

Zalusithix

Member

It's technically possible. Using the sensors for absolute positioning and angle measurement, multiple photos can be analyzed and depth maps constructed. This is similar to the turnstyle 3D scanners for phones. Unfortunately the computations will have to be performed on the PC, and it'll be useless for AR. Then there's the issue of whether they can get it working well enough for general release.

I really expected this to happen on CV1, given the very early concept picture had front-facing cameras. It must be more difficult in practice than I thought it would be.

Or they simply decided not to include it since they designed the Rift exclusively for stationary experiences anyway.

Probably a combination of the second reason and cost. Adding two cameras and enough onboard hardware to compute the depth maps would have driven the cost up. Alternatively, feeding the video back to the PC for computation would have forced it to perform even more image analysis - potentially driving up min specs. I mean, by the time the Rift is doing roomscale, the PC is already having to analyze two cameras. Contrast this to the Vive which is crunching a few sensor time stamps.
 
Since we're on the subject of games suport atm, isn't surprising/ disapointing that we haven't heard of anything regarding Alien Isolation? A full, official VR suport would be oh so awesome.

EDIT: and I of course mean Vive suport, I want the game to literaly put me on my knees and crawl :p
 

Durante

Member
You can play anything in VR. Is the game reasonably completable in VR, though?
I'd say so. It has native support and I did an entire laser in VR (it's amazing when it appears and you follow it with your gaze).

It's obviously not designed for VR, and it comes with all the caveats of not-1:1 VR movement, but if you can deal with that it's very playable.
 

artsi

Member
Since we're on the subject of games suport atm, isn't surprising/ disapointing that we haven't heard of anything regarding Alien Isolation? A full, official VR suport would be oh so awesome.

It never had official VR support, so I doubt they're going to update it. They've other games to work on so I don't see slapping VR support to a 2 year old game worth it from the developer's view.
 

UnrealEck

Member
Since we're on the subject of games suport atm, isn't surprising/ disapointing that we haven't heard of anything regarding Alien Isolation? A full, official VR suport would be oh so awesome.

Hopefully they'll surprise us. I think the support was intended at some point then abandoned.
I'm not sure how well it plays without full support as it is now. From what I've seen it seems pretty functional with a few model/camera clipping issues.
 
I'd say so. It has native support and I did an entire laser in VR (it's amazing when it appears and you follow it with your gaze).

It's obviously not designed for VR, and it comes with all the caveats of not-1:1 VR movement, but if you can deal with that it's very playable.

That's a helluva caveat. How do the puzzles that require precise perspective work? Does it/will it lock your head in place? That seems terrible.
 

viveks86

Member
I doubt this will ever happen, unfortunately. Too many of the puzzles work completely antithetically to VR, requiring the player's viewpoint to be frozen in place.

Hmmm... I doubt a completely frozen viewpoint is necessary in VR. As long as your view is steady enough, none of those puzzles should pose a challenge. Given the team has been testing VR for a while, I'm pretty sure they'd have stopped talking about it if they found such showstoppers. Blow was responding to me on twitter even a couple of months back about the possibility of official VR support. Only time will tell.

That's a helluva caveat. How do the puzzles that require precise perspective work? Does it/will it lock your head in place? That seems terrible.

This was the subject of my last conversation with Blow. It won't lock the perspective.
 

Durante

Member
That's a helluva caveat. How do the puzzles that require precise perspective work? Does it/will it lock your head in place? That seems terrible.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If anything, the perspective puzzles are easier, since you can more freely and naturally adjust your perspective. It never locks your head in place.

The caveats are the same as for any game which has traditional movement controls.
 

Seiru

Banned
Anybody know if there's good "other worldly" experiences available right now for the Rift? Stuff like being able to see huge planets in the sky at the correct scale, things like that?

I don't know why that example sticks out to me, I just think it would be super cool to see like Jupiter slowly rise over the horizon or some shit.
 
Hmmm... I doubt a completely frozen viewpoint is necessary in VR. As long as your view is steady enough, none of those puzzles should pose a challenge. Given the team has been testing VR for a while, I'm pretty sure they'd have stopped talking about it if they found such showstoppers. Blow was responding to me on twitter even a couple of months back about the possibility of official VR support. Only time will tell.

Hey don't get me wrong, I 100% hope it works and is great. I'd love to play the game in VR. There are just some significant challenges with regards to the design that I don't think "almost good enough" VR support is worthwhile.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If anything, the perspective puzzles are easier, since you can more freely and naturally adjust your perspective. It never locks your head in place.

The caveats are the same as for any game which has traditional movement controls.

Perhaps, I need to try it myself. I'm just thinking of scenarios where your perspective dictates where your like can go, and small changes in that perspective would break your line. Does the game reset the line in that case? Does it allow you to move based on your initial perspective?
 
It never had official VR support, so I doubt they're going to update it. They've other games to work on so I don't see slapping VR support to a 2 year old game worth it from the developer's view.

VR suport was officialy demoed back then (2 years already? Damn),
I personally do think i'd be worth it on a comercial point of view, VR suport was intended and is still almost functional, doesn't seem like it would require much work.
 

Durante

Member
Anybody know if there's good "other worldly" experiences available right now for the Rift? Stuff like being able to see huge planets in the sky at the correct scale, things like that?
There's a demo called SightLine: The Chair which has been around since the early Rift DK1 days. It has been continuously updated and is still a go-to for "seated experiences" IMHO.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Anybody know if there's good "other worldly" experiences available right now for the Rift? Stuff like being able to see huge planets in the sky at the correct scale, things like that?

I don't know why that example sticks out to me, I just think it would be super cool to see like Jupiter slowly rise over the horizon or some shit.

Well, if it's planets at the correct scale you seek, you could play some Elite Dangerous. Whether it's landing on a planet or landing on a moon of said planet and watching it, it'd have you covered.
 

viveks86

Member
Hey don't get me wrong, I 100% hope it works and is great. I'd love to play the game in VR. There are just some significant challenges with regards to the design that I don't think "almost good enough" VR support is worthwhile

It's a retrofit, so I don't expect it to be perfect. But I think it will be good enough. For me, exploring that world in VR is the killer app. I've already solved all the panel puzzles anyway :D

Just saving the
environmental ones
for VR
 
It's a retrofit, so I don't expect it to be perfect. But I think it will be good enough. For me, exploring that world in VR is the killer app. I've already solved all the panel puzzles anyway :D

Just saving the
environmental ones
for VR

Oh totally, just being in that world would be good enough for me.
 
Anybody know if there's good "other worldly" experiences available right now for the Rift? Stuff like being able to see huge planets in the sky at the correct scale, things like that?

Titans of Space, definitely
Neos: the universe
GE Neuro, from Kite and Lightning
Durante already mentioned Sigh tline: the chair
 

Cartman86

Banned
Might have changed his mind (or ran out of time) during development, but Blow wrote a blog post in 2014 about being blown away by the room demo. He worked with Valve to get the basic ideas of The Witness running using that system. He seems incredibly excited in that post... and then nothing.
 

Durante

Member
Since we were just talking about it, here are some shots I took when I was playing The Witness.
2016-01-27_00009i8uld.jpg
2016-01-27_00011sguws.jpg

Might have changed his mind (or ran out of time) during development, but Blow wrote a blog post in 2014 about being blown away by the room demo. He worked with Valve to get the basic ideas of The Witness running using that system. He seems incredibly excited in that post... and then nothing.
Well, (Witness ending spoilers)
if you have seen the final credits, it's clear that it affected him ;)
 

viveks86

Member
Might have changed his mind (or ran out of time) during development, but Blow wrote a blog post in 2014 about being blown away by the room demo. He worked with Valve to get the basic ideas of The Witness running using that system. He seems incredibly excited in that post... and then nothing.

Here's our conversation in September:

https://twitter.com/jonathan_blow/status/644675128870207488

Since we were just talking about it, here are some shots I took when I was playing The Witness.

So jealous!
 

Cartman86

Banned
Since we were just talking about it, here are some shots I took when I was playing The Witness.


Well, (Witness ending spoilers)
if you have seen the final credits, it's clear that it affected him ;)

lol yeah I can't help but wonder how much more that would have worked for me if I was in a Vive at that point. Maybe even requires you to take the headset off at that point.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Anybody know if there's good "other worldly" experiences available right now for the Rift? Stuff like being able to see huge planets in the sky at the correct scale, things like that?

I don't know why that example sticks out to me, I just think it would be super cool to see like Jupiter slowly rise over the horizon or some shit.

Try Sensa Peso
 
Pardon me for asking - I really am trying to learn here. It seems that most of the VR trailers I have seen offer fairly shallow gameplay. I think VR will have great racing and flying games but is there anything like The Witcher, Elder Scrolls, Grand Theft Auto, Zelda, etc?

No. What did you expect when you immediately start comparing to the most expensive AAA franchises out there. Did you have any plan for how the developers/publishers are supposed to earn money by making these VR games you're dreaming of when the customer base wouldn't be anywhere near enough to support them even if they were to sell these games to 100% of the customers at full price, day 1?

Your dream is still many years away, a minimum of 5 if I were to make an educated guess. You really need to tone down your expectations and realize the financial realities of game development before dreaming too big, because VR is going to be an amazing experience for you, but not if you raise the bar to the max before even heading out the gate.

It's also worth pointing out that your impression of what is "shallow gameplay" is formed from your lack of exposure to actual VR. Give it a try first, and you might realize that what works for traditional games isn't necessarily what works for VR.
 
I've been using my DK2 on my GTX970 machine, and now I'm getting my main machine ready for my Rift and Vive. I've got a 980ti and hooked it up yesterday and am getting horrible judder on my 980ti. Is anyone else getting this? Any way to fix it?
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Assetto Corsa has barely updated the Oculus SDK version support, and no talk about SteamVR.

That Reddit post referenced a few pages ago talked about the oculus sdk and said they were adding forward compatibility with 0.6 SDK onwards. So in theory shouldn't any game or app that works with 0.6 work on 1.0?
 
I've been using my DK2 on my GTX970 machine, and now I'm getting my main machine ready for my Rift and Vive. I've got a 980ti and hooked it up yesterday and am getting horrible judder on my 980ti. Is anyone else getting this? Any way to fix it?

worse judder than with the 970?

I get the same judder with a 970 that I got with a 760.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
That's normal. For early adopters, tech comes first, with the hope that content follows. The rest just need to wait till their "killer app" is out.

Having said that, I'm really excited for:

The Witness
Adr1ft
Project CARS
The Vanishing of Ethan Carter
The Talos Principle
Budget cuts
Eve: Valkyrie
Elite Dangerous
Everest

All of these are available this year, if not day 1. Whether one likes them or not is subjective. But they are certainly killer apps for me.

Yup. Part of the appeal for me is to be along for the ride while developers iterate over and over to figure out what works.
 
I've been using my DK2 on my GTX970 machine, and now I'm getting my main machine ready for my Rift and Vive. I've got a 980ti and hooked it up yesterday and am getting horrible judder on my 980ti. Is anyone else getting this? Any way to fix it?
Make sure the DK2's headset USB is plugged into USB 3.0, and the camera's USB as well - for me that fixed some juddering I was getting in Elite Dangerous.
 

Cartman86

Banned
That is sort of what worries me. I see rail shooters and corridor racers, mini games etc and mostly games that look like they will become repetitive once the novelty of VR wears off.

I am not saying they are bad games. I am sure they are all fun but I don't see any killer app that makes me want to jump in yet.

Over the next couple weeks as people get their headsets and press get review builds you will see things that fit more into your AAA description. Don't expect literal AAA games of course, but I think you will find some examples of games that most certainly go beyond mini-games or on rails experiences. Problem right now is everything people have tried are short demos or alpha builds and the video coverage by mainstream video game sites has been generally poor. Plus I can't say this enough. Simple actions in VR with tracked controllers are indescribably more interesting than pressing a button on a controller. It makes tired gameplay (like shooting a gun or taking cover) brand new again.

Make sure the DK2's headset USB is plugged into USB 3.0, and the camera's USB as well - for me that fixed some juddering I was getting in Elite Dangerous.

Another way I fixed this in the past was plugging in the optional power cable.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Awesome post

Great post with a lot of good points. Just to add, I think full 360 experiences also have challenges around how to direct attention to the correct areas behind you. So a 180-270 forward facing, standing, touch experience is probably enough for a huge number of experiences.

Especially so when you factor in the reality of the user base. At some point devs will want to sell their games and make a living. The reality is that most people will only have space for standing, and if you want to sell across vive+OR+PSVR then that means designing around the common features and that means forward facing 180 degree with motion (by the end of the year)

I'm sure there will still be outstanding games that really make the most of dull room scale, but the commercial reality may make those more challenging, and perhaps something that valve can encourage/support


You also pushed my pendulum back to neutral - it was heavily towards vive the last couple of days
 
Another way I fixed this in the past was plugging in the optional power cable.
That may be a placebo effect - according to Oculus the power cable in the DK2's only function is to add power to the optional USB port in the headset, in case you are plugging something in there that needs power.
 

Gold_Loot

Member
Since we were just talking about it, here are some shots I took when I was playing The Witness.


Well, (Witness ending spoilers)
if you have seen the final credits, it's clear that it affected him ;)
Have you tried any of the tree root puzzles in VR? If so, how did that work out?

The more games that work, or support VR the better, but sometimes I wonder how the tech can overcome situations like this.
 

viveks86

Member
GTAV will actually run well in VR eventually. There is already a mod that decouples gaze from aim from body orientation, the main hang up is that the developer has no motion tracking controllers. In a few weeks, when he gets a vive, he should finally be able to track head, body, and hands all independently. That is a great jumping off point, and where we were with Half Life 2 VR.

Will have to disable ultra grass until Pascal comes out though... *screams at clouds*
 
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