SquiddyCracker
Banned
Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear from my post.
I was just pointing out the methods that actually do work, not endorsing them - which is why I pity pedophiles, since the only ones that get help that works are the ones that offend.
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The Pedophile Next Door
- Thread starter Messofanego
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Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear from my post.
I was just pointing out the methods that actually do work, not endorsing them - which is why I pity pedophiles, since the only ones that get help that works are the ones that offend.
I've always been afraid to sympathize with pedophiles that don't act upon their urges, because of how dangerous it is. I feel so awful for them, because even asking for help can get them in huge trouble. It's very reflective of how homosexuals used to be treated in the early 20th century. The demonization needs to stop.
TimeEffect
Member
What age range are they attracted to?
That Theroux documentary was really uncomfortable
That Theroux documentary was really uncomfortable
I've always wondered if pedophilia is something biological or just a behavioral glitch that comes out of a society that traditionally holds very young, virginal, and innocent women as the ideal.
It's interesting that 18-year-olds are fetishized so much in porn, especially those who look older. Being almost a child is obviously a turn-on for many guys.
It's interesting that 18-year-olds are fetishized so much in porn, especially those who look older. Being almost a child is obviously a turn-on for many guys.
Pedophilia is being attracted to pre-pubescent children; under 13. The 18 year old and barely legal stuff wouldn't appeal to a person with this condition and the young virginal girl preference wouldn't really seem to encourage, to me anyway, an attraction to children of that age. I can't see any real reason to think it isn't biological.
It's because that's what men (as a group) find attractive (see: the OKCupid Graph here) - they're simply catering to an audience. It's likely that those numbers would have been even younger had they included sub-18 pictures in the study. I don't believe this issue is societal in the least, but that stark difference between male and female preferences for the general population does make me wonder if this could be a biological glitch that would result in having more males with this issue than females.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
http://www.davidbrin.com/neoteny1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny
There are some weird things going on with human sexuality, and centuries ago people were indeed having sex with what we today would call a child (at 12+ years old), so attraction to pre-pubescent children sounds could indeed be a misfire. If we are more attracted to neotenous traits, then there most be some sort of set of parameters in our neural pathways to ensure that the lower limit coincides with puberty - or else we'd kinda be wasting energy and resources copulating with mates that cannot produce offspring. Evolution would select against too wide parameters as a result, but like with anything else evolution does, it's design by averages - so you get anomalous individuals popping up here and there with parameters wide enough to include pre-pubescent children.
That's before we get into the statistics of child abusers often being abused themselves when they were young, but I think that's a whole other thing rather than being tied down to biology.
Pedos are given the shitty brains, and until we can fix brains there's nothing that can be done about it except the methods that we have when it comes to dealing with sexual urges.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
If you are only attracted to young children, then that really sucks, and I feel sorry for you. But you don't get any points for not raping children or exploting them in some other way. I can't stand reading the bullshit in this thread about 'uncontrollable urges.'
From what I've heard, chemical castration is ineffective.
I think it's less biological, but more the lingering effect of cultural norms.
While the 20th century saw huge reforms that changed that it meant to be a woman, there has been very little effort to modernize the masculine gender. It's not overt anymore, but young virgins are still implied to be the best possible mates. So much media (like the entire genres of fantasy and historical fiction) harkens back to a time in which a "maiden" was unattainable, and some Western religious sects still hold sexual purity in a super high regard.
Youth and innocence tend to go hand in hand, and associations of purity with a lack of experience lead to this fetishization. Even if right-wingers who openly praise virginity get laughed at by the public, it takes a very long time to change these ideas, especially when there has been no serious effort to change them.
It's only biological insofar as that these gender norms are at best inspired by biological differences. Men who marry virgins have no reason to doubt the paternity of their kids and are less likely to sexually disappoint their wives. Men who marry young women have more time to pass on their genes.
Yeah Nazi's actually had the balls to kill people themselves instead of this passive-aggressive "the world would be better off without you, I have a needle if you want it" shit you're trying to pull.
Arguably it's worse for pedophiles, because there's no light at the end of the tunnel. They're never going to be able to join us like LGBT people or people who want to fuck inanimate objects. They're stuck in the "living things that cannot consent camp" along with zoophiles so we really can't ever just let them be.
QuantumZebra
Member
I agree with this but it also begs the question - wouldnt that send people like this deeper into hiding? I just dont know what the right answer is here.
It's best not to reply to trolls like SquiddyCracker.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I know that you probably don't mean any bad, but holy fucking shit this is horrible. The whole point is to HELP them, anything negative and people will never admit to being pedos.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
No, it is pretty effective.
Physical castration will reduce recidivism to 2-5%, whereas chemical castration while slightly higher is still significantly lower (and greatly so) than non-chemical castration.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3565125/#B10
They have not done anything and for the most part for them, it's just fantasy. Nothing more, and if they want help they should get it.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
People are actually empathising with paedophiles now?
Helping them so hopefully they never slip or have a weak moment? Fuck that.
There's no place in society for scum like that.
Helping them so hopefully they never slip or have a weak moment? Fuck that.
There's no place in society for scum like that.
Yeah, because these people have done nothing wrong
and are being treated like this
GraveHorizon
poop meter feature creep
When people speak about these "urges" is it in the same way used to refer to rapists' urge to rape? Like they desire something they haven't expressly been given consent to, but it's automatically considered worse because children aren't legally able to consent? I'm having trouble understanding the difference (if any) between being sexually attracted to an adult woman such as Annie from Community and an equally attractive 15 year old girl. If you find one sexually appealing you are a normal person, but the other automatically makes you an imminent sexual criminal? Does that mean I'm a future rapist for admiring Jennifer Lawrence's figure?
I think my crime coefficient just went up. Someone should file a minority report...
Again, pedophilia is a sexual attraction to prepubescent children under 13. That means none of the development associated with puberty.
Moff
Member
Yes I do empathise, just as I empathise with anyone else who is judged and treated differently because of something they did not choose to be.
chemical castration is not as bad as some here seem to think. it's not permanent, it's basically taking medication every few months and curbs your sex drive. many diagnosed pedophiles choose to do it and it's an easy way for them to deal with their problem. or well, at least easier as some alternatives.
So fuck prevention, wait till they act on their urges and burn them after? That's not exactly helping the future victims. Unless you hope setting examples will be enough of a deterrence for others.
It's a difficult matter, but obviously there should be a way for non-acting pedophiles to get help. Not having a system is like sticking your head in the sand and contributing to the problem. I've got no idea what the current state of affairs is, I'd think they can at least turn to a psychologist/psychiatrist? There's something like confidentiality, no?
Haven't watched the doc, will do later.
patrickthehedgehog
Member
Would volunteer for a Circles type support group in my area to help non-offending pedophiles. However, it doesn't look like this is a common thing.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Hoooooooly shit
You do know that a pedophile isn't a child molester, right? That they are too different things?
Messofanego
Banned
Eddie in the docu:
"At the time, Sarah Payne had just been raped and murdered. I think it was Roy Whiting. So there was understandably a hysteria. And they immediately assume that every pedophile is a rapist. And because everyone is making that jump and automatically assuming that you're going to do something bad, yeah, I internalised that. I thought I was a bad person. I thought that somewhere along the lines I'm going to do something.
At that time, I was honestly just thinking more and more about suicide. I couldn't escape it, was never far from my mind. Many people would probably say, 'Why didn't you do it? Just do us all a favour'.
Well, it was my life. I wanted it to mean something."
And this is what these programs are about, letting pedophiles live a healthy life without feeling like they have to act on their dangerous desires or kill themselves. Those are both bad options, and they should be able to see something else.
Unfortunately, the modern media and press doesn't like to distinguish the two and assume both are the same, thus a majority of society agrees with that outlook. Ignorance breeds stupidity, stupidity breeds hatred, hatred breeds more unneeded deaths. Pedophiles are innocent people with a trait that can't be helped or treated because no one wants to be that guy who researches such a taboo. Society would have their heads before anything could be done.
ldcommando
Banned
Agreed. Fuck pedos.
Even if they were born that way?
SpiceMelange
Member
What if your son comes out and tells you he was born attracted to kids; he never choosed this and in fact hate it but no one will lend him support. Your son will be chastised, isolated and demonized for something he did not do and did not choose to be and may very well kill himself. You are okay with that?
I would get him some serious professional help.
The alternative is acceptance, and I don't accept pedophiles.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Jesus what timing to this thread. Not too long ago I was listening to Maddox's "Biggest Problem in the Universe" podcast where in that episode his problem was pedophiles, but they also took that stance that demonicing people before they act on their desire and refusing to give them proper treatment without the risk of being arrested (at least in the US) was not the way to go. There are plenty of closet pedophiles who can't seek proper medical help without the fear of their psychiatrist/psychologist calling the cops on him apparently. Haven't done much research on the matter but if true that's bullshit. We're preventing people with a possible psychological disorder in seeking help.
not sure if 100% real but read what I wrote above.
not sure if 100% real but read what I wrote above.
Messofanego
Banned
It's important to repeat, this seems to be innate and their attraction starts at the same time as any other sexual awakening. Pedophiles never wanted to be pedophiles.
Thanks for this.
It's interesting how victims are more likely willing to talk it out with pedophiles instead of having no remorse which is the default for the general public.
I hope that researcher Letourneau's preventive project gets through.
Thanks for this.
Mandated reporting revolutionized the way child abuse is handled in the U.S. and has brought many incidents to light, but it can be problematic for young men like Adam who havent abused children. The civil and criminal liabilities facing those who fail to report someone who goes on to molest a kid, combined with the fact that it need only be based on suspicion and not probable cause, means a report could be triggered when well-intentioned individuals reach out for help. The overwhelming number of minor-attracted men I spoke with said this was too much of a deterrent. Which also makes it harder to learn more about them.
Mandated reporting means we get to hear less from pedophiles and seems a flawed law since it doesn't require proof of abuse but more just suspicion. Michael Seto, director of the University of Ottawas Forensic Research Unit and associate editor of Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment, believes that the prevalence of male pedophiles sits closer to 1 percent of the population, which would equate to at least 1.2 million in the U.S. alone. (Female pedophiles exist, but in smaller numbers.)
If the population of pedophiles is that high, something preventative should be done about it. These support programs should exist. As that longform article reports, focusing on young pedophiles especially with non-exclusive minor attraction could yield important research. Some commenters were working through their own abuse history, and couldnt stomach the idea of helping a self-confessed pedophile. But two female sexual-abuse survivors eventually came forward, convinced that he was of an age where a change could still be made. One of them, Adam believes, had suffered particularly brutal abuse, abuse that was filmed, and their conversations about the evils of child pornography would often trigger her past traumas. She cared about me, he said. But she made it known that she felt I deserved whatever the law decided to do with me if I were caught for the CP [child porn].
It's interesting how victims are more likely willing to talk it out with pedophiles instead of having no remorse which is the default for the general public.
Adam told me that sometimes theyd tease each other about peer-aged crushes, offering relationship advice and egging each other on to ask people out. I talked to Mike a fair bit about dating. Partly about the guy I dated for a little while and partly about this girl in his class who he wanted to ask out. Hed find every excuse in the world not to do so, and Id be supportive by trying to push him to take the leap, he said. We did talk about everyday things that most everyone else in the world has to deal with.
For pedophiles with non-exclusive attraction, that seems like the best option if they can be attracted to people of appropriate ages and help each other in regular dating. When I told Professor Letourneau that I was in contact with a group of young, non-offending pedophiles, she seemed taken aback. In her 25 years in the field shes had plenty of experience with juveniles who have abused children, but she had never met a pedophile who hasnt. It seemed strange to me considering her line of work, but she explained that, because such pedophiles rarely come forward, researchers have no way of accessing this particular segment of the population. I dont know anyone else who has made it a goal to talk to young people who have an attraction to younger people, she said.
I asked her if shed like to be put in touch with the group, and she jumped at the chance. After speaking with four of them over the phone, which she described as kind of a life-altering experience, she flew out and met Adam face-to-face, and has been speaking with him regularly ever since. She said they have taught her things about pedophilia that she didnt know before, and its giving her a clearer understanding of how these attractions develop. Shes now using this information to modify her proposed treatment plan and has brought Adam on as an official advisor.
Im not a teenage boy attracted to children, and so I dont know what that experience is like, she said. They all describe years of just agonizing self-hatred, agonizing fear of being detected as having sexual interest in children, viewing themselves as monsters, being afraid to look for help If they could have just turned to someone to talk about this, a professional whos going to treat this objectively and see them as a person of worth, whos going to know that theyre not bad kids, that theyre good kids but they have this aspect of them that they really need help controlling. Thats what theyre looking for and thats what I hope we can provide.
Adams input has helped expedite the pilot program shes putting together, aimed at pedophiles aged 17 and under. If successful, it will provide the foundation for a comprehensive preventive model, which she hopes to eventually expand to include pedophiles of all ages, that will be rolled out online and to therapists across the country. Though its in the early planning stages, Letourneau imagines it will involve disabusing them of the notion that sex with children is ever appropriate, improving self-esteem in light of a situation that might not change, and strengthening social interaction with their peers. In many ways, its an extension of what Adam has been doing with his group for the past three years.
I asked her if shed like to be put in touch with the group, and she jumped at the chance. After speaking with four of them over the phone, which she described as kind of a life-altering experience, she flew out and met Adam face-to-face, and has been speaking with him regularly ever since. She said they have taught her things about pedophilia that she didnt know before, and its giving her a clearer understanding of how these attractions develop. Shes now using this information to modify her proposed treatment plan and has brought Adam on as an official advisor.
Im not a teenage boy attracted to children, and so I dont know what that experience is like, she said. They all describe years of just agonizing self-hatred, agonizing fear of being detected as having sexual interest in children, viewing themselves as monsters, being afraid to look for help If they could have just turned to someone to talk about this, a professional whos going to treat this objectively and see them as a person of worth, whos going to know that theyre not bad kids, that theyre good kids but they have this aspect of them that they really need help controlling. Thats what theyre looking for and thats what I hope we can provide.
Adams input has helped expedite the pilot program shes putting together, aimed at pedophiles aged 17 and under. If successful, it will provide the foundation for a comprehensive preventive model, which she hopes to eventually expand to include pedophiles of all ages, that will be rolled out online and to therapists across the country. Though its in the early planning stages, Letourneau imagines it will involve disabusing them of the notion that sex with children is ever appropriate, improving self-esteem in light of a situation that might not change, and strengthening social interaction with their peers. In many ways, its an extension of what Adam has been doing with his group for the past three years.
I hope that researcher Letourneau's preventive project gets through.
This is very much true, A lot of psychiatrist/psychologist have very little understanding on how to handle a pedophile and automatically assume the person already committed the crime of child molestation. A friend of mine was thrown in jail over seven times because of it, and he committed no real crime and only seeked help.
Therapists are obligated to call the cops if they believe you have committed a serious offence like rape or murder, or if you plan on doing one. Though I can't blame them fully for doing that, barely anyone researches the cause and treatment of pedophilia because society would have their heads before any serious work could be done. No one want to hear that their taxpayer dollars are going to the research of pedophillia.
In germany we have a program like that. We even have advertisement for it.
Something along the lines "get help before you act". A big newspaper even interviewed one of the pedophiles in the program. They get medicine that suppresses sexuell feelings, get therapy and other kind of help.
Found the article, it is in german..
http://www.zeit.de/2012/44/Sexualitaet-Paedophilie-Therapie
google translate link
Something along the lines "get help before you act". A big newspaper even interviewed one of the pedophiles in the program. They get medicine that suppresses sexuell feelings, get therapy and other kind of help.
Found the article, it is in german..
http://www.zeit.de/2012/44/Sexualitaet-Paedophilie-Therapie
google translate link
HazySaiyan
Banned
How could you possibly be against something like that? Would you rather we wait until a pedophile goes ahead and abuses a child before taking action? Fuck that!
Admiral Woofington
Member
It's extremely shitty. If the person is seeking help don't call the cops on a hunch. It's a tough call to know if the person will cause harm to another but these are people that already don't have anybody to talk to and need help. No need to further drive them out of society. The more you make them hide the likelier they will act on these impulses without help.
I'm not touching this with a 10 foot pole lol
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Yes.
that's why they with the therapy which should only help them to suppress the urge they get drugs. the drugs usually take away any sexual feeling humans have.
Admiral Woofington
Member
For the record in the same podcast I was talking about a fan of Maddox contacted him with an anonymous email and said what was obvious. Many pedophiles can still lead healthy sex lives, they just repress their urges and find other outlets like roleplaying with their partner. There's also websites where they can gather and try to help each other anonymously. These are people that don't want to feel this way but they're also terrified of seeking professional help and being outed.
hobblygobbly
Member
Pedophilia is a diagnosed disorder, people that are attracted to prepubescents and know this attraction is wrong seek help. It's not a crime, most countries do not have thought-crime, having this attraction is not a crime itself and cannot be helped by the person, that's why some people seek help and there are people that help them deal with this. Don't be so easy to demonise them.
The problem occurs when people act on this attraction, child rape and molestation, child pornography, etc. That shit is obviously illegal and fucked up but someone can be diagnosed and never done any of that because they got help, do you really think it's fair to demonise and hate them when they've never acted on it and sought help? There are therapies and active research done for decades on this, there are plenty of people that have never acted on this attraction/urges and live perfectly fine lives because of the help they managed to get or a strong will. It's not fair to demonise these people that have done nothing inherently wrong.
It doesn't help that media and people in general don't know the differences between all of this. It makes the situation much worse especially with those stupid anti-pedophile activist bull shit because they don't understand it either.
It has nothing to do with sympathising, just knowing the differences.
The problem occurs when people act on this attraction, child rape and molestation, child pornography, etc. That shit is obviously illegal and fucked up but someone can be diagnosed and never done any of that because they got help, do you really think it's fair to demonise and hate them when they've never acted on it and sought help? There are therapies and active research done for decades on this, there are plenty of people that have never acted on this attraction/urges and live perfectly fine lives because of the help they managed to get or a strong will. It's not fair to demonise these people that have done nothing inherently wrong.
It doesn't help that media and people in general don't know the differences between all of this. It makes the situation much worse especially with those stupid anti-pedophile activist bull shit because they don't understand it either.
It has nothing to do with sympathising, just knowing the differences.
Moff
Member
you are right. as far as we know today, pedophilia is a sexual orientation like hetero or homo sexuality and can't just be changed.
pedophiles are not cured. therapy teaches them to deal and live with it witthout hurting others. one way is to curb their sexual drive with medication if they choose to do so.
Admiral Woofington
Member
An argument can be made that a gay individual acting on his/her desires or even getting them out in the open won't land them in jail (well in more progressive countries) and the social stigma has died down considerably compared to before. It needs to be more accepted of course.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I agree with this. If you force them to hide it, then it is buried away to "fester" unchecked by rationality and social support. It can become a fantasy realm removed from normal rules of being until it comes out in an offense. It needs to be treated like a medical sickness rather than shamed for moral perversion. That latter strategy obviously fails to prevent bad things from happening.
Thanks for the link. I remember hearing about that Charite program a few years back. Reading this article makes me think how lucky I am not to be born that way.
GreenRobot
Banned
Theres a ThisAmericanLife episode about this.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/522/tarred-and-feathered
Its very insightful, and not too difficult to read at all. Its for public radio so.
Its interesting because when John Grisham defended another famous writer for getting ten years for looking at child pornography, everyone bashed Grisham, but I agreed.
There should be punishments for possessing child pornography, but 10 years in a high security federal prison? There are plenty of people who have these terrible thoughts, but do not wish to ever act on them. Many of them will not even engage in the porn. Obviously, no one is defending them. But that there are different types of pedophiles, ones who harm children, and ones who do not, is just reality. Theres nothing wrong with using our brains and intelligence to suss out these subtleties.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/522/tarred-and-feathered
Its very insightful, and not too difficult to read at all. Its for public radio so.
Its interesting because when John Grisham defended another famous writer for getting ten years for looking at child pornography, everyone bashed Grisham, but I agreed.
There should be punishments for possessing child pornography, but 10 years in a high security federal prison? There are plenty of people who have these terrible thoughts, but do not wish to ever act on them. Many of them will not even engage in the porn. Obviously, no one is defending them. But that there are different types of pedophiles, ones who harm children, and ones who do not, is just reality. Theres nothing wrong with using our brains and intelligence to suss out these subtleties.
My dear beelzebub are you a horrible human being. Like, seriously, this is one of the most fucked up and worst post on NeoGAF ever.
Shake Appeal
Member
I remember reading this at the end of last year and just being simultaneously horrified and heart-broken by it. Really worthwhile read, if you can stomach it.
Yes, although it's not as cut and dried because many pedophiles claim to be able to enjoy normal sexual relationships with consenting adults. Either way, it's not about "fixing" them as much as it is giving them cognitive and emotional strategies to cope with their urges and keep from abusing children.
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